chen man ching and Bruce Lee: a thought

[jun_erh]

two chinese martial artists who are well known in the US but have very little in commoon superficially. But I think there is at least one: their particular philosphies and training methods are perfectly suited TO THEM. After reading The Tao of Jeet Kun Do I was thinking it was a great training manual for someone who has 8 hours a day to work out and is naturally a super athlete who can rely on any number of strenths, namely speed and power, to make his ideas succesful.

Chen Man Ching, whose ideas I knw from his various students, taught against any thing that blocks the chi, basically any muscler/ stregth based things, as being counterprductive to tai chi. In both sides of the coin there is quite a bit of moralizing, that sex drugs and alcohol can negatively effect your kung fu etc. But I think Chen man ching's lifestyle was conductive to all of his ideas in the same way Bruce lee's was. and in the same way Fidel Castros are. if your some kind of superperson who has a will of iron and amazing work ethic, maybe these ideals are right for you.

My point is to not accept what works for someone else as gospel and go ahead and run, lift weights, drink, etc.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by jun_erh
two chinese martial artists who are well known in the US but have very little in commoon superficially. But I think there is at least one: their particular philosphies and training methods are perfectly suited TO THEM. After reading The Tao of Jeet Kun Do I was thinking it was a great training manual for someone who has 8 hours a day to work out and is naturally a super athlete who can rely on any number of strenths, namely speed and power, to make his ideas succesful.

Chen Man Ching, whose ideas I knw from his various students, taught against any thing that blocks the chi, basically any muscler/ stregth based things, as being counterprductive to tai chi. In both sides of the coin there is quite a bit of moralizing, that sex drugs and alcohol can negatively effect your kung fu etc. But I think Chen man ching's lifestyle was conductive to all of his ideas in the same way Bruce lee's was. and in the same way Fidel Castros are. if your some kind of superperson who has a will of iron and amazing work ethic, maybe these ideals are right for you.

My point is to not accept what works for someone else as gospel and go ahead and run, lift weights, drink, etc.

firstly...8hrs training a day does NOT make you a super althlete...and finding the time isn't so crazy, if it's a priority

I think by advocating as best training means ,minimal sex, drugs and no alcohol, these guys refer to living as though what we do to our bodies actually effects us:confused:

use of drugs, not only comprimes our qi, but also our yijing..for the fact we already have the information that we are doing is detrimential to our health and stoopidly do it anyway....sex has been discussed many times on this board, and all I will say on that is that it requires 45 days of straight abstainence to practice iron body skills...as for alcohol..I don't drink, but as a 'better health choice' according to many varied sources of medical and health information, I have 1 glass of cabinet sauvignion every day of my life....no doubt this will change when I get to shaolin where alcohol is not petrmitted, and I see how any other alcohol is poisoning our system adversely effecting qi, but I'd be extremely interested if anyone would break this down for me here...red wine consumption and effect on qi???

There are many years of information and study that a brings a person to this point where they can give up these things for the sake of maximum qi....and I guess bruce Lee and whats his dude, are prime examples...to cultivate in earnest is NOT an easy thing, especially when no-one's looking....but I wouldn't trade it and the life force I receieve in return is crazy...you gotta try this youself :p ;) :D :cool:

[Ikken Hisatsu]

anyone who thinks that building muscle and conditioning are counter productive to a martial art is a complete f*ckstick, even if it is tai chi (and hey we all know how well proven tai chi is for self defense)

and I wouldnt class someone with poor eyesight, chronic back pain, and weak legs as a natural super athlete. I would class Lee as someone who worked **** hard for what he wanted though.

[jun_erh]

blooming lotus- so why doesn't shaolin have one glass of wine mandatory for all its students? ;)

take the gym: some people like doing yoga every day. others like it a little bit and maybe weight training a little bit. But you don't have to GIVE YOUR LIFE to yoga to get somwthing from it and it won't help you to GIVE YOUR LIFE to it if it's not what you really want or need.

If I followed Bruce Lee's regimin, I'd be a very tired guy with some mediocre high kicks instead of more or less no high kicks. If I tried to follow the CMC prescription I'd probably weigh 6 hunderd pounds and be depressed and bored. I'm not saying have no discipline, just that there are ways of being happy and being a good fighter while stil being yourself

[Repulsive Monkey]

Big differences between the two actualy, when it came to health issues Cheng was quoting from a Chinese Medicine perspective which I kinda think validates his health quotes. Bruce Lee was not a doctor of medicine and njust quoted stuff from personal experience or things that he had read beforehand.

Both had different ideas admittedly because they were practicing different methodologies and disciplines, however Cheng studied under Martial Masters Taoist Masters and Medical Masters. True his experience later on dictated his own styling but I feel Lee had less direct background to quote from.

Have to be honest I can't understand why weight lifting is gonna improve one's Taiji because it doesn't. I wouldn't include under the illusion that it will make my Taiji better, yes it might condition make my body look good and efine muscle groups, but it won't improve your Taiji, as opposed to actually practicing Taiji form, weapons, qi-gong and conditioninf of the Yi.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

oh, i thought this was tai chi chuan, or fighting tai chi, or whatever you want to call it. not forms. Any one who says you dont need strength to be a good fighter is talking crap.

[Repulsive Monkey]

The force you use in Taiji is an intrinsic strength, one that is not built upon with weight lifting, thats a fact. And yes that is for Taiji combat.

[pazman]

Ikken,
Cheng man Ching was undefeated, and he produced some decent fighters in his time. He may have been talking crap, but at least he was in a position to do so, eh?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu
oh, i thought this was tai chi chuan, or fighting tai chi, or whatever you want to call it. not forms. Any one who says you dont need strength to be a good fighter is talking crap.


alot of taiji masters throughout the Asias and even the world, are approcxhing old age and do absolutely nothing else but that...can guarantee you'd they'd get the job done anyway...


Look at Grandmaster Sun....she was extremely old and had extreme effectiveness in her gong to the end....I think you're wrong dude


example aside, I think I'd take the technical proficiency over he strength anytime, strength dafes, technical prowess is like riding a bike...there's longevity in that;)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

sex has been discussed many times on this board, and all I will say onthat ois ta it requires 45 days of straight abstainence to practice iron body skills

blooming lotus must have a hard time getting laid. that's what i figure.

[blooming lotus]

snapped I guess.....when you're this fussy , a good lay is hard to come by :rolleyes:

[jun_erh]

my point wasn't really about weight lifting. It was more accepting that you don't have to do EXTREME or extremely unextreme training to be a great martial artist.

[red5angel]

I guess it depends on how you define "good martial artist". All things being equal, wouldn't weight lifting give you an edge? ;)

[jun_erh]

in most cases but thousands of great fighters (muay thai, gracies) traditionally haven't done a lot of it. I offer those examples to show it's not just China.

[blooming lotus]

ok..I'm jus gon go ahead and open the "can-o-worms"....what about about dim mak then...cause in a "real" situation, if I wanted to hurt you...that's what i'd be doing ....no weights or training required, lil bit of study maybe...and as for weights...wtf with that?? I agree with jun-erh...being an extremist is optional, but i'm confident...and I'm pretty sure the boys out at shaolin feel the same ;)

take the gracies..I don't know what their training routine is like, but it's about technique and undertsanding the flow and principal of interactive movement more than strength right?? On basic concepts of grappling conception,...that's what i'm figuring anyway ;)

What ever you're comfortable with dude:p :cool:

[Ikken Hisatsu]

its all very well but when the fists start to fly, you're going to wish you werent built like a 12 year old girl.

[abobo]

Maybe this is getting off topic but surely someone is willing to concede that strong legs are an asset in Taiji? And it follows that lifting weights is a way to gain such strength.

[blooming lotus]

sure strong legs are important, but it's more important that they have good moving range or capacity..than brute strength..although if they had worked to the point where that range of movement was easy, they would no doubt have the strength neccessary....

as for Ikkens' comment...what a load of c*ap that statement is...I deliberatly cultivate my body to look like this for a reason....and when the punches start flying, you can guarantee ( as it has always been )..I will be the first one to stand my ground...and willl be there till the end... ..like I said...size doesn't intimidate me...my arts take care of them selves....


Ps... show me a 12yr old girl that looks like this..and i'll show you a kid who is in great need of a chasity belt;) ...but thx for the comment anyway :rolleyes:

[travelsbyknight]

Did you all know that many of the basic ideas in the tao of jeet kune do fron Gin Foon Mark/Southern Mantis.