defending against thai roundhouse kick?

[IRONMONK]

so how do you guys defend against a low thai roundhouse kick without really hurting your shins?

are there any video clips of how WC/WT etc demonstrating how to deal with roundhouse kick?

[TjD]

i think invariably theres a lot of damage thats going to be done to your shins if you practice wing chun more advanced than the playing hands of chi sau that most people do.

the stances used in wing chun, especially when rushing or charging in - just look at the knife form footwork - lend themselves to bringing a pounding to your shins.

for high level wing chun, i think a bit of shin conditioning is in order. theres probably not much you can do to avoid it. especially since taking just a simple shin vs shin blow, even with minimum contact, can be rather incapacitating due to the nerves and pain involved.

[marcus_pasram]

Hi ironmonk,

Wing Chun has many techniques to deal with roundhouse kicks. Take a look at our website's (http://www.wingchunnyc.com) gallery for the PanYu Training Camp pictures as well as our techniques section for some daily drills we practice for applying Wing Chun techniques against Kicks. I hope this might give you a better idea.

/marcus


Originally posted by IRONMONK
so how do you guys defend against a low thai roundhouse kick without really hurting your shins?

are there any video clips of how WC/WT etc demonstrating how to deal with roundhouse kick?

[Phil Redmond]

If you use the Yang side of the shin you will be a lot safer then using the flat shin bone itself when covering low kicks.

[Gangsterfist]

I know this is not the answer you are looking for, but perhaps stick to them enough and crowd their leg so they can't kick you (chi girk).

[Mckind13]

I would use Jeet (intercepting) and Chueng Gerk if at all possible. Blocking with the shin is like blocking a punch, not what I want to do but a necessity some times.

Try intercepting with the front foot into the thigh or hip. Execute the kick hard enough to break your opponents structure and disrupt the energy of his kick. Then follow through vigorously.

David

[marcus_pasram]

Hi guys,

Here are 3 drills (http://www.wingchunnyc.com/techniques/ms_media/interceptingkick2.htm) you should take a look at. Click on the triangular icons to navigate thru the techniques.

Enjoy ... marcus

[marcus_pasram]

Hi Phil,

That sounds intersting. I don't know what the yang side of the calf is. Do you have a video-clip you could share? If not, can you describe it in more detail?

thanks... marcus


Originally posted by Phil Redmond
If you use the Yang side of the shin you will be a lot safer then using the flat shin bone itself when covering low kicks.

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Marcus,
I was refering to raising the leg and blocking with the Yang (outer) side of the lower leg. This way you don't have direct contact the shin bone. TWC teaches no bone to bone contact even when using the arms.

[yuanfen]

Ironmonk asks:defending against thai roundhouse kick?
so how do you guys defend against a low thai roundhouse kick without really hurting your shins?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timing. Not to wait for the guy to load his kick.

[straight blast]

We tend to use a straight low heel kick that comes up under the shin of the roundkick, and then once contact is made pivot towards the direction of the kick.

This has the exceptionally painful (for me anyway) effect of "splitting open" the opponent's hips at the pelvis, and the harder the kick comes the more it hurts. It also destroys the kicker's balance and allows for the low heel kick to change into a stamp kick on the supporting knee.

Nice and simple, Wing Chun style ;)

[kj]

Originally posted by EmptyCup


If only this always worked in reality...

Of course in reality, nothing always works.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Gangsterfist]

I have heard several sifus say rush in, counter kick, or sidestep when your opponet's kick is being chambered. So when you see them start to chamber their kick that is the time to act. I have heard it from TKD teachers, karate, kung fu, etc. It is a good practical answer for a round kick, and a lot of systems say use it. Since a round kick comes in at an angle (its not a straight line attack) it does give some time to act upon it. Now, some people may kick way faster than others so every experience will be different. Its also not your only answer either. Reading your opponet is something that will only come with sparring experience. For a long time an over hand jab (like an inbetween hammer blow/jab) threw me off because it looked ridiculously funny to me. So, I would watch it come in and try something at the last moment. So go spar witht he tai boxer and eventually over time the both of you will be more keen to each other's techniques. In wing chun we have the yo ming girk (sp?) or no shadow kick, which is suppose to mean non telegraphed attacks. Most of them come in a straight line (shortest distance). Typically train the harder first and the easier comes along with it. Training to counter, block, side step, etc faster attacks will train you to act upon the situation faster.

One thing I have experience as a wing chun practitioner is that it is hard to spar someone of a different style at first. Especially since I am so used to sparring fellow wing chunners. So perhaps start cross training to learn more (expand your combat training) or at least find some people to do some friendly sparring of different styles. Experience is a good aly to have.

Good luck in your training.
GF

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
...which is why it struck me as an odd answer...the fact that that was the extent of it...

so what if you're too close to evade?

what if it's thrown after a combo?

if you never train methods to also block the kick the time your "timing's" off you will be on the floor like a dropped log

That is because fighting is not a concept, not an exact science, and there are no definate answers in combat. Some answers may be better than others. Train what is practical for you everyone's body mechanics are different. If you can block it with your leg and absorb the blow from conditioning than do it, if that works for you.

You will never have the same fight twice.

[Gangsterfist]

Agreed there are many good answers to a low round kick. I know I have just lifted my leg that the person is attacking over theirs and stepped through the kick and swept them or just dodged it that way. Of course that is being nice when sparring, in real combat I would have stomped down on their knee.

So there are definately many answers. The one above has worked for me a few times in the past, but it may not work everytime against everyone I fight. But hey, thats how it goes. To you that may not be practical. Stepping in and gon sao'ing (or qwan sao) the upper thigh when it turns over to a round kick is another answer I have used as well. It has also worked for me a few times, and at the very least it usually softens the blow if the kick lands.

Those have worked for me and may not work for you. I have also used taiji foot work for incoming kicks as well.

One thing I have found useful when learning to take blows is slow sparring. Slow spar one of your sihings, siboks, sifu whatever. When you get hit roll the hit off your body by rotating your body. Eventually you will be able to roll off attacks at higher speeds. I know a few people who are so good at this, that when you do hit them they almost always roll it off. Which in return takes away the power of your attack.

Just some thoughts...

Use what is practical for you, and if you have doubt ask your sifu. I am sure he or she could give you many different answers.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Ironmonk asks:defending against thai roundhouse kick?
so how do you guys defend against a low thai roundhouse kick without really hurting your shins?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timing. Not to wait for the guy to load his kick.

The thai kick doesn't load...

[CFT]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
In wing chun we have the yo ming girk (sp?) or no shadow kick, which is suppose to mean non telegraphed attacks. Almost .... it's "mo ying gerk". In addition to not telegraphing, aren't you also supposed to distract the opponent with a hand attack?

[yuanfen]

Sevenstar sez:
The thai kick doesn't load...
-----------------------------------------
Semantics on meaning of "load". Let's say -"motion".

Wing chun comes in many varieties and the individual and his/her
wc development and skill makes a big difference.

In their first encounters some wing chun young folks did not do well against thai boxers in the 50s. But times changes things.
One needs to "study" (not "crosstrain" in my definition) other styles and never to underestimate an opponent.

If you work on toughening shins and work on a blocking scheme- you will be playing the thai boxers game. Must be good at the wing chun game- structure, dynamics/motion, knowing "lines" and
appropriate "timing" (not always the same thing as sheer speed).
And one technique does not fit all situations-each round kick is unique- size of the person, favored side, the telegraphing-however small.

And- I am not speaking from a vacuum-- have worked out with
thai practitioners before, observed them carefully, seen their fights and training in Thailand and the US. "Fairtex" complex used to be here in the valley(Phoenix metro).They have since moved.

Key is timing and knowing and seeing open attack lines-not fixed
prearranged techniques or iron shins(but not glass shins either).
Its not just me- I have shown folks how to handle various kinds of kickers including thai--know wing chun brothers and others who have done the same.

Some straight lines beat curves however small.
If toughening shins give you self confidence-its ok...but if you know enough wing chun and its internalized- clearly- attack or run!
((many thai boxers are inherently unstable in their structures
if their roundouse is not completely successful)
Wing chun when learned well involves both mobility and stability-
inside a kick's path or outside.

You are welcome to disagree and goodluck if you depend on shin toughening.

joy chaudhuri

[Gangsterfist]

Joy-

Good post. I just have a few questions about your thoughts. You seem to know wing chun very well, perhaps better than most on this forum. I am not denying that. However, can you please extrapolate your views on cross training with some real world experience behind them? You said:



In their first encounters some wing chun young folks did not do well against thai boxers in the 50s. But times changes things.
One needs to "study" (not "crosstrain" in my definition) other styles and never to underestimate an opponent.


Now, perhaps its just me, but don't you cross train when you study another system? Are you not learning how that system works and exploiting certain things you find wrong with it? Could you not just crosstrain in it to learn it straight up hands on. Studying the mechanics of how something work, and experiencing them are two different things IMO, and often will yield two different results.

I spar with other kung fu practioners on a somewhat regular basis. A lot of times sparring goes to the ground. Wing Chun has many concepts and principles that can be broadly applied. IMO Wing Chun does not have many answers to ground fighting. You can apply many concepts of WCK in many situations, and perhaps after many years of wing chun you could easily apply them to multiple situations on the ground. However, I found it way more effecient to just train some basic ground fighting style. It does not take away anything from my wing chun, it just adds to it. It makes me realize those wing chun concepts earlier in my training rather than way down the road. Isn't that more effecient? Isn't being effecient a big thing with wing chun? So, then could we conclude that my cross training experiences were actually enforced by wing chun principles? Not to mention who is to say that wing chun has answers for every type of situation. There may not be a definate answer that wing chun provides, but at least it may give you an idea towards the answer. IMO, its a conceptual art that builds ideas and energies that can be applied in many different ways. Therefore, in combat everything I do now is wing chun, because I can find at least one wing chun principle, maxim, or concept that applies to it. So, that has been my personal experience.

Maybe, you completely disagree with me, which is okay; I can also respect the fact you are totally entitled to your own opinion. If you could explain how my thoughts or ideas are wrong or not ideal in your view please do. At this point I am very curious to see your response.

Thanks-
GF

[yuanfen]

GF sez:

At this point I am very curious to see your response.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GF-
((Ok a few points one by one with also bracketed comments after snips from your post. I am not a know it all.I have superb sihings-much better than me, who just do wing chun. Some sihings and some brothers too have had practical experience also against other styles to test, check and adjust their applications
and who have not had to dilute their wing chun.My defense of wing chun is not academic))


Now, perhaps its just me, but don't you cross train when you study another system?

((Analysing what you might face and trying out things against an
exponent of another system is not "cross training" strictly speaking- atleast it is different from mixing things with wing chun))

Are you not learning how that system works and exploiting certain things you find wrong with it?
((Sure))

Could you not just crosstrain in it to learn it straight up hands on.

((Time away from wing chun progress provided the progress is good))

Studying the mechanics of how something work, and experiencing them are two different things IMO, and often will yield two different results.

((Not necessarily so. I dont have to have AIDS to have a good understanding of how it is dangerous and how to prevent it))

I spar with other kung fu practioners on a somewhat regular basis.

((We are back to "sparring". Troublesome word- with different possible meanings. In a sport like boxing it has some specific meanings. Its meaning can be a bit different in CMA depending on which CMA))

.
A lot of times sparring goes to the ground.

((Sounds like a bit of quasi friendly play))


Wing Chun has many concepts and principles that can be broadly applied.

((Should be deeply understood and embedded in an auto reflex system))

IMO Wing Chun does not have many answers to ground fighting.

((Aint necessarily so.Again the problem of meaning. A fight is a fight is a fight- not mechanically separate static phases. If I send someone to the ground I will not intentionally go down with them. If I slip or am taken to the ground I will do my best to defend and fight there and get up the first opportunity I get and play my game. A wing chun mind all the time all the way except for absent minddedness or tecate time))

. You can apply many concepts of WCK in many situations, and perhaps after many years of wing chun you could easily apply them to multiple situations on the ground. However, I found it way more effecient to just train some basic ground fighting style.

((Your decision is upto you. You gotta do what you gotta do.
But my opinion is---sport athletic training and a life and death defense or martial art system are quite different things. For quick self defense---things like Strong on Defense is ok. You dont have to have MA.
Sports like boxing and wrestling can be learned fairly fast specially witha good coach. The wing chun learning curve starts slow---and many impatient people end up with mixed sytems... but styaing the course with wing chun-it takes a little longer- but the benefits are immense and longer lasting.))

It does not take away anything from my wing chun, it just adds to it.

((Dont know- I dont know where you are in your wing chun development- and forum conversations are just that- conversations.))

It makes me realize those wing chun concepts earlier in my training rather than way down the road. Isn't that more effecient?

((Which specific concepts are you referreing to and what time frame--the above sentence is a bit fuzzy to me! Efficiemcy usually involves a mean-ends relationship-if so, which ends and which means are you referring to? ))

Not to mention who is to say that wing chun has answers for every type of situation.

((Life is unpredictable. No sytem has all the anwers -because it is not always possible to know what the questions are. If you suddenly run into an evil person or even a 15 year old who has a Uzi pointed at you-hopefully you have prepared to meet your maker.
And in some other casesall empty hand arts (or escrima) have become less relevant. And no MA would have prevented the two DC snipers from killing you- if you were in their sights. Kismet.

A little soap box---democracy may not be perfect--- but it is better than whatever is in second place... and if there is a defect in democracy- Madison's answer was --- elections. elections, elections i.e more democracy.
Wing chun is in a parallel position--- wing chun does not work?
Try more wing chun- not less-find out what was done wrong-correct it and move forward. That atlaest is a wing chun not a MMA or JKD answer. My answer may not satisfy you- but there it is. Cheers))

Joy Chaudhuri

[kj]

Exceptional post, Joy. Of course, sharing similar perspectives, I would think so, LOL.

Regards,
- kj

[wonkee]

i think that the focus of the question is slightly wrong. The thai kick is a formidible weapon but still just one weapon. One might ask how do you stop a punch, a wing chun kick etc.

From my experience waiting to stop a kick is suicide and watching a kick would probably invite a punch or elbow. My training here is to attack first with a kick or punch.

I train my own kicks on a heavy bag. I am not a super kicker and i'm not naturally flexible. I just train to fire the kick and penetrate my bag from different positions. I train the left leg more than the right one because most kickers i know actually do round kicks with their right.

I actually train with a thai boxer and he does hurt me when my timing is wrong. When my timing is better i can either hurt him or at least discourage him.

The other thing is that you never know whether an attack is a thai kick or jap kick or chinese kick etc. Who cares? It's an attack from a direction. You must learn to react or prempt.

A kicker can deliver a good kick if both of you are not moving, however, dynamics will weaken his base and yours too. Adrenalin means that simple reactions are best. Move in move out, kick move in etc.

I don't want to say that my way is best but it gives me results and feedback and I am content to continue to develop it.
:)

[anerlich]

I train the left leg more than the right one because most kickers i know actually do round kicks with their right.

Looks like I'm in the minority then :D

Otherwise, good ideas.

[Gangsterfist]

okay interesting points..

Could you say that with out any other cross training you could use wing chun training to figure out shrimping, guard/mount positions, and how to get out of chokes/joint locks while on your back or stomach on the ground?

If you did, hey cool. I know a lot of that stuff is basic, but it still requires training to pull off in real situations. The only real you can get and still be safe is hard contact sparring, and training those non wing chun techniques. I would think that would be cross training.

Fights go the ground the minute you throw your opponet there, lose balance, get grappled, etc. There are tons of reasons why a fight would go to the ground. I am not saying that that its my preference. If you don't train ground fighting techniques then you probably won't be able to pull them off. You may never need them, but then again you may need them in your next fight. That next fight could be a serious one and possibly even life or death.

I have not seen any of those grappling/ground fighting techniques in any wing chun system. Granted, I have only been exposed to a few lineages in person and rest I have only read about. It seems that the wing chun answer is don't get grappled, which in theory is a great answer. However, not always is it that a choice is given to you though. Sometimes you can't control the situation especially in a fight.

For the longest time the grapplers (a few of my sihings studied grappling arts and wrestling) would get me on the ground every now and again and it was over real quick. That was because I had no ground fighting training. They have taught me basic non wing chun techniques that honestly are very effecient and help you get right back on your feet. If it helps me back on my feet where I can go back to my wing chun, then I am all for using and training it. If it works, it works.

So, in relation to this topic, if a counter works against a thai round kick then it works. Sometimes it may not work, so train other things that you may use as back ups.

[wonkee]

i think i meant to say they kick with both but most seem to come from their right side which is my left side.

I also train the right but my left is real heavy and slow - so i train it more for that reason too.

[namron]

Originally posted by anerlich


Looks like I'm in the minority then :D

Otherwise, good ideas.

Not quite but most thai clubs (at least in my experience) hate southpaws.

I prefer a south paw cause I'm sick of getting my the inside of my leg mashed when I'm in a cross stance (othodox stance)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yuanfen

If you work on toughening shins and work on a blocking scheme- you will be playing the thai boxers game. Must be good at the wing chun game- structure, dynamics/motion, knowing "lines" and
appropriate "timing" (not always the same thing as sheer speed).

That's also part of the thai boxer's game...

Some straight lines beat curves however small.

which is why roundhouse kicks are best set up with punches.

((many thai boxers are inherently unstable in their structures
if their roundouse is not completely successful)

depends on the type of round house. with the lead leg variety, I'd disagree. With a switch leg variety, I'd say it depends on the fighter, but on a rear leg, I'd agree with you. The rear leg roundhouse is pretty much an all or nothing kick. If he goes with the kick, however (either by completing his full circle or letting his foot down when he's a 3/4 turn or so from you (the majority of his back is facing you) he's not off balance, but needs to follow up quickly. If he tries to stop the kick once he realizes that he missed, yes, his balance will be compromised.
Wing chun when learned well involves both mobility and stability-
inside a kick's path or outside.

You are welcome to disagree and goodluck if you depend on shin toughening.

me? I don't rely on that any more than WC guys rely on chain punching...

[yuanfen]

Yuanfen commenting on sevenstar commenting on yuanfen:

If you work on toughening shins and work on a blocking scheme- you will be playing the thai boxers game. Must be good at the wing chun game- structure, dynamics/motion, knowing "lines" and
appropriate "timing" (not always the same thing as sheer speed).

That's also part of the thai boxer's game...

((Different timings- timings relative to function- assuming the importance of variety of wing chun timing work which seems to be put more on the back burner by many- compared to mma training and sparring))

Some straight lines beat curves however small.

which is why roundhouse kicks are best set up with punches.

((Thai punching is inferior to a western boxers punches by far..
a good wing chun person these days should have already gone into action- and I am NOT talking about standard chain punching))


You are welcome to disagree and goodluck if you depend on shin toughening.

me? I don't rely on that any more than WC guys rely on chain punching...

((Generic you- not sevenstar))

[SevenStar]

SevenStar commenting on Yuanfen commenting on sevenstar commenting on yuanfen: :D

Originally posted by yuanfen

((Different timings- timings relative to function- assuming the importance of variety of wing chun timing work which seems to be put more on the back burner by many- compared to mma training and sparring))

timing relative to function - can you give me an example?


((Thai punching is inferior to a western boxers punches by far..
a good wing chun person these days should have already gone into action- and I am NOT talking about standard chain punching))


I agree with that. I would venture to say that most punching is inferior to boxing punching, in application. Many thai boxers today now use boxing stances and punching for that very reason.

[yuanfen]

sevenstar asks:
timing relative to function - can you give me an example?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Structure and positioning are related to timing. Timing is not just speed.
Structure and positioning and angling and line concepts in wing chun appear to be different from that in muay thai . And wing chun timing exercises are related to that rather than just sparring and looking for holes-though the benefits of the latter should not be underestimated.

[SevenStar]

sounds like something to discuss. muay thai angling and timing example:

you are in front of me. As you advance, I step off line and into you, throwing a roundhouse into your lead thigh.

timing / structure

you are in front of me and attempt to throw a roundhouse. As you do so, I teep kick (jab kick) your hip, breaking your structure, stopping your forward movement and rendering your kick useless.

positioning

you are circling to my outside - toward my front leg. I use that leg to kick the inside of your thigh. You are circling to my inside - toward my rear leg - I throw my rear round house and let you circle right into it.

[yuanfen]

Fraternal comments on sevenstars post.
((It is not easy and perhaps not even wise to do this because threads can easily get lost in noise rathen than information))

sounds like something to discuss. muay thai angling and timing example:

you are in front of me. As you advance, I step off line and into you, throwing a roundhouse into your lead thigh.

((This is where different wing chun timings and understanding structure via practice comes in- depending on my reading of the
energy and its direction involved. Lots of alternatives--if you step off line- I turn like a cat and step in- before you complete your roundhouse. Micro motions.
I could stop kick whatever presents itsef- denying the chain of power for the roundhouse.
Also my lead thigh may not be a stationary target. There are drills for all the above))

timing / structure

you are in front of me and attempt to throw a roundhouse. As you do so, I teep kick (jab kick) your hip, breaking your structure, stopping your forward movement and rendering your kick useless.

((Am not likely to throw a low percentage roundhouse unless I have a very clear line. WC folks should beware of a MT jab kick or MT or TKD thrust kick when moving in. My hand work is likely to touch that kick headed for my hip first-ball in my court))


positioning

you are circling to my outside - toward my front leg. I use that leg to kick the inside of your thigh. You are circling to my inside - toward my rear leg - I throw my rear round house and let you circle right into it.

((If I am interested in your front leg- circling would not be my first choice. Also -if you use your leg--- you have one leg on the ground- I have two. Bicycles are faster than unicycles.
What if scenarios easily get noisy.))

[Phil Redmond]

In TWC we try not to start out in a front stance. We use a side neutral stance and only change into a front stance after contact is made. We don't leave a leg out there for you to kick. You'd have to get way past our guard exposing yourself. Now as to kicks to the waist and head I'm uploading mpegs of things I used in kickboxing to Garry's site.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yuanfen

Also my lead thigh may not be a stationary target. There are drills for all the above))

It's not stationary but committed to a direction. you are moving forward - I am stepping off and kicking while you are in motion.


((If I am interested in your front leg- circling would not be my first choice. Also -if you use your leg--- you have one leg on the ground- I have two. Bicycles are faster than unicycles.

you don't have to be circling. It's the same if you are stepping in. The front leg kick is fast and low, so temporary one leggedness doesn't bother me.

What if scenarios easily get noisy.))

Agreed. I hate what if scenarios - that wasn't my aim. I was giving examples of angling, timing, structural, etc. instances in MT, wanting you to give some examples of such in WC - I'm looking to see how they differ, since you mentioned that they do.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
In TWC we try not to start out in a front stance. We use a side neutral stance and only change into a front stance after contact is made. We don't leave a leg out there for you to kick. You'd have to get way past our guard exposing yourself. Now as to kicks to the waist and head I'm uploading mpegs of things I used in kickboxing to Garry's site.

What's the url? Is it one of the ones in your sig?

[Phil Redmond]

It's the two WMV one's here;
http://www.wck-media.co.uk

[SevenStar]

That one has been used on me before. My friend trains WC, and he's done that. We weren't sparring though - It was like in your clip - I threw a kick, and that was how he defended.

[yuanfen]

Sevenstar's post and further comments:

Originally posted by yuanfen

Also my lead thigh may not be a stationary target. There are drills for all the above))

It's not stationary but committed to a direction. you are moving forward - I am stepping off and kicking while you are in motion.

((Sevenstar- wing chun today is a very unevenly represented art
and of course individual reps do make a difference. Ideally- wing chun commitment is different from MT or shotokan- it can adjust while in motion. If I am as alert and sensitive as I should be- if your kick touches me I could use its power to add to mine and redirect or destabilize your structure. Much depends on individuals))


((If I am interested in your front leg- circling would not be my first choice. Also -if you use your leg--- you have one leg on the ground- I have two. Bicycles are faster than unicycles.

you don't have to be circling. It's the same if you are stepping in. The front leg kick is fast and low, so temporary one leggedness doesn't bother me.

((Timing is more important than speed. Again individuals as well as styles are relevant to this kind of discussion. I have a new student who is and pretty good MT person from Europe. Last night he tried botha fast front kick and also a close quarters round kick. Closing gan/jam and popai(butterfly) in two handed closing him demonstrably disturbed his balance and endangered gis privates. Next time I might do entirely something else- not
marred to technique. In real life if I sensed that he could take me-
I would look for a 2x4 or run away- that is not out of the wing chun box thinking))

What if scenarios easily get noisy.))

Agreed. I hate what if scenarios - that wasn't my aim. I was giving examples of angling, timing, structural, etc. instances in MT, wanting you to give some examples of such in WC - I'm looking to see how they differ, since you mentioned that they do.

((I hope that the above examples make sense))

[Phenix]

Originally posted by IRONMONK
so how do you guys defend against a low thai roundhouse kick without really hurting your shins?


No one asked you to let him kick your shin.
No one ask you to defend against.
You have a choice to being offence.

Why not? :D

[SevenStar]

The only reservation I have about that kick defense is the actual kick - I see you zoned off, but the guy kicking was doing a snapping kick, not a thai style kick - his kick had no follow through...

[yuanfen]

Sevenstar- if you were addressing me. At the instant, I dont
and didnt care about the taxonomy of kicks.

Good wing chun training-both theory and practice and experience not episodic training or crash course learning allows one to bypass thinking consciously about what the other guy is throwing.

BTW-I dont claim any personal athletic abilitiies- wing chun brothers that I know would have done the same or better.There is both logic. art and the personal dimension to wing chun.

[SevenStar]

It was addressed to Phil, RE: the vid he posted.

It would possibly be of advantage to you to consider the taxonomy of the kick... we're talking about blocking basically a baseball bat - with your forearms like that - If the kick had follow through, would your defense be different?

[Phil Redmond]

Sevenstar, I understand what you're saying if someone were to just stand there and take the brunt of the kick. It would probably hurt, but the technique is used while moving, and redirecting. It can work against a Thai kick or any hard kick. Everyone seem to think that Thai kickers are invincible. Look at some of Benny the Jet's matches against Thai fighters. No technique is invincible but I've used it in full contact matches. You never stand still and block a kick. You keep moving.

[yuanfen]

Sevenstar-
You addressed Phil and he has given a replyfrom his perspective.

But you also said that:

"It would possibly be of advantage to you to consider the taxonomy of the kick..."

From my perspective- if I just stand there and let someone kick
or someone hit me witha baseball bat by sirprise(if the other guy knows what he/she is doing).....I am very likely to lose.
But my whole wing chun training involves not standing frozen
but in using wing chun timing and motion for both defense and attack..

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Sevenstar, I understand what you're saying if someone were to just stand there and take the brunt of the kick. It would probably hurt, but the technique is used while moving, and redirecting. It can work against a Thai kick or any hard kick. Everyone seem to think that Thai kickers are invincible. Look at some of Benny the Jet's matches against Thai fighters. No technique is invincible but I've used it in full contact matches. You never stand still and block a kick. You keep moving.

it's not an invincibility issue - that's not what I'm questioning. It's that arm position...

[marcus_pasram]

Hi Phenix,


Originally posted by Phenix
No one asked you to let him kick your shin.
No one ask you to defend against.
You have a choice to being offence.


In my experience when I spar there are moments during the encounter when under attack I don't have the confidence or luxury of time to go in and be offensive so I cover my exposed area and wait for a better opportunity to attack. I expect that my opponent can and will surprise me so I won't have time to advance or retreat. Therefore I am forced to stand my ground and defend myself by covering my area that is under attack. After all, I don't expect to be faster than my opponent. The Wing Chun lexicon has many ways of covering oneself.

No matter what preconceived notions I have about how a fight should happen ... unexpected things happen. In those cases I reflexively defend by coverage and wait for the opportunity to get the guy without exchanging blows. Who wants to exchange blows with someone stronger than themselves? I train to hit the guy without being hit myself by employing the principles of coverage thru the application of simultaneous offense and defense.

/marcus

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by SevenStar


it's not an invincibility issue - that's not what I'm questioning. It's that arm position...
I'm very comfortable with that position against the hardest kicks as are my senior students. The force is dissipated creating a spring-like wall with that position. Bottom line is that it has and still does work for me. In fact I don't even feel the kick anymore with that position because it's "cradled" like catching a football to the chest, and not "blocked".

[mr. jai]

has anyone seen the video clip of one guy throwing a roundhouse kick and the other lifts his knee to block it? the guy's leg breaks just below the knee, not braking the skin though. anyone have that clip? :cool:

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by mr. jai
has anyone seen the video clip of one guy throwing a roundhouse kick and the other lifts his knee to block it? the guy's leg breaks just below the knee, not braking the skin though. anyone have that clip? :cool:
If you'll email me at sifu@wingchunkwoon.com I can send you the mpeg.