kung fu and mixed martial arts

[travelsbyknight]

Someone said in another post, "BAk Mei is not a complete art beause it doesn't have grappling and ground figting."

I've heard that same comment applied to kung fu in general. Why doesn't anyone ever comment on how grappling styles lack the advanced striking methods that kung fu styles like bak mei have. Every K1/Pride fight i've ever seen featured a grappler that had "striking skills" but really only had rudimentary boxing skills.

Kung fu has grappling...but it is dressed up differently than the way styles like aikido and jujutsu do. IMHO, kung fu grappling is a hell of a lot more advanced than all of that aikido/jujutsu stuff put together.

[Shaolinlueb]

kung fu doesnt need grappling when used correctly. ;) :o

[travelsbyknight]

Of course kung fu needs grappling...but not the Steven Seagal type.

Skin ripping, muscle tearing nerve pinking...testicle grabbing...etc. Those are all grappling moves. Grappling isn't just taking someone by the wrist and having him or her dance around in a circle while you control them.

[BlueTravesty]

Well, I do believe grappling can be necessary and beneficial, and I as a Kung-Fu practitioner would like to learn some ground-fighting principles, but only to the extent that it would help me to get back on my feet if I got taken down so I can keep punching and kicking. It may sound a$$inine, but I would rather break teeth/noses than have some sweaty freak pawing at me while rolling on the ground like I'm his prison cellmate. But if it did happen, it would help to know what to do to get back up. So I can hopefully knock out some more teeth and get in a couple good shots to the family jewels.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
Skin ripping, muscle tearing nerve pinking...testicle grabbing...etc. Those are all grappling moves. Grappling isn't just taking someone by the wrist and having him or her dance around in a circle while you control them.

exactly, kung fu has a ton of china-na.

[Archangel]

LOL, This how these discussions almost always start; a traditionalist making a claim about MMA.


IMHO, kung fu grappling is a hell of a lot more advanced than all of that aikido/jujutsu stuff put together.

Pure comedy there.

[Liokault]

LOL I liked the bit about the "advanced stricking skills of kung fu"

Yet you put a "master of kung fu" in a fight and they just throw haymakers till they fall over then brawl on the floor or tap out depending on if they are fighting a BJJ guy or not.

[BlueTravesty]

cuz bjj is teh invicnebles!!!
:rolleyes:

[travelsbyknight]

I've never seen a televised fight involving a bjj player and a supposed master of kung fu. Was this person a self proclaimed master of kung fu...or did he order his belt from the back of a cereal box?

[SifuAbel]

Which master was that again?

[rogue]

IMHO, kung fu grappling is a hell of a lot more advanced than all of that aikido/jujutsu stuff put together. I had an Aikido black belt tell me that BJJ wasn't good for the real world. Of course this was after I had just used a bridge and roll to get him off of me after one of his finger locks slipped and we started grappling. Oh yeah the B&R was something I read about in a book and I was pretty impressed by the technique since I don't do BJJ or MMA.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by BlueTravesty
cuz bjj is teh invicnebles!!!
:rolleyes:

roffle roffle :D

[David Jamieson]

for those of you who think bjj is something "new" or is a "mma"

think again... it ain't and it never said it was. it has come to emphasize the ground play but...

http://frota-team.com.br/martialarts.php

anyway, if you check out the gracies site, they will pretty much corrobarate (sp?) to that end.

cheers

[Ikken Hisatsu]

its true that kung fu in general lacks any real good grappling arts. I don't know why that is, but its the good old truth. and as for the "advanced striking skills" of kung fu- get over it, there are few punches that will work in a fight. I do kung fu and muay thai, and apart from "the four" (jab, cross, hook, uppercut) there is maybe 4-5 other hand strikes of any use. if you want good technical punchers who can grapple, go watch Bas Rutten or Mirko Cro Cop.

grappling is an essential part of fighting and something that I unfortunately have no access to (I live in a fairly small town- closest decent grappling class is at least 2 hours drive) and I think any well rounded fighter should at least know the basics.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
I've never seen a televised fight involving a bjj player and a supposed master of kung fu. Was this person a self proclaimed master of kung fu...or did he order his belt from the back of a cereal box?

I did not refer to a televised fight, but if you need to see video of just how bad kung fu masters are just do search on this forum.

[PHILBERT]

*burp* (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0870409247/qid=1078149283//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-4958675-1931963?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

[Ray Pina]

It is considered a sin in our school to deem the style, "complete."

We specialize in hand to hand. I have yet to see better hand skills. But we train the hell out of the ground, too.

Let's just forget the street for a second. We're all martial artist right. Let's say you're the top student in your school and a BJJ brown belt comes in and says, I want to see how you guys handle the mount. What are you going to say? We don't do that!

The Artist in martial artist doesn't meen pretty to me, it means being a master of the craft and being able to beat the ground fighter on the ground, handle the kicker's kick and the boxer's punching.

If you don't know it all you are incomplete as a fighter (as one should always look at themselves because when do you have enough?). All styles are incomplete! How is BJJ weapon's: the pole, the knife, the sword? Don;t say you can't find short, medium and long sticks or pipes out there. It's all relevant. Many of my training brothers carry knives and so do I.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
It is considered a sin in our school to deem the style, "complete."

We specialize in hand to hand. I have yet to see better hand skills. But we train the hell out of the ground, too.

(snip)


The Artist in martial artist doesn't meen pretty to me, it means being a master of the craft and being able to beat the ground fighter on the ground, handle the kicker's kick and the boxer's punching.

How is BJJ weapon's: the pole, the knife, the sword? Don;t say you can't find short, medium and long sticks or pipes out there. It's all relevant. Many of my training brothers carry knives and so do I.


Indeed. I feel a large part of being "effective" in your art is learning what your art can and can not do, then realising what other people can and can not do then acting accordingly.

Not so sure about the weapons thing though. I mean yes you can find short, medium and long weapons on the street (I regularly carry a 7 foot long metal pole with a sharp tip with me) but how much skill does it take to subdue an attacker with a 3 foot long stick, and how much training time should you put into this?

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
The Artist in martial artist doesn't meen pretty to me, it means being a master of the craft and being able to ...

I just love that first part.
I'd probably reword the second part as "...able to carry out your gameplan regardless of the range (punching, kicking, wrestling, grappling)".

Nice one

[Ray Pina]

I would change it to that, too.;)

For me: maintain a strong structure, get position/control, then hit. That's the game plan.

[Pork Chop]

sounds like that old internal saying: "position before submission" ;) :p :D

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Liokault


I did not refer to a televised fight, but if you need to see video of just how bad kung fu masters are just do search on this forum.

Again, which masters are we talking about?

[stimulant]

I know one kung-fu 'master' (he is a little mad now - seriously) who is a nightmare to grapple with...not because of grappling skills, but because of his grip strength (he cracks open nuts and I've once saw him crush an apple in his finger tips!). If you're gonna grapple him you got make sure he cant touch you with his hands other wsie you gonna get some serious damage. In a fight you would need get a break, submission, choke out technique on within 2-3 seconds of going to floor, any longer than that and he would probably rip a chunk of flesh out!

[Liokault]

Originally posted by SifuAbel


Again, which masters are we talking about?

Well to be quite honest I am talking about "masters" in general, but if you want to be specific the 2 "masters" in the ring slapping each other (I'm quite sure you saw the clip here but I cant find it), white crane v tcc I think it was and another name that springs to mind is William Cheung.

If you can post a link or give somthing more than anakdotal evidance on "masters" really being able to fight SifuAbel I would certainly be interested.

[SifuAbel]

"anakdotal evidance"

I'm not even sure what that is.

Two words............. spell check.

It is too bad that the only video available of that time period is this piece of horse hockey. I just wonder where this gem sprouted from?

Perhaps, when its time and if there are any films out there, someone will be happy to share. REAL masters like Lum Shum, Kenny Chin, Lee Kune Hung, Tat Wong (FC footage is availabe through his school), ANY of Chan Sao Chungs people that also won MANY asian full contact bouts, the list goes on. At the very least someone we've actually heard of.

What amazes me is the utter belief people cling to based on the most minuscule bits of EVIDENCE.

[SifuAbel]

And, If you think about it, the only reason that pile of rubbish even made it on film was because someone made a big deal about it.

I wish I had more footage of myself fighting. As it is, I only have a handfull of clips taken on a light contact demo reel we made 13 years ago. It was by no means my best fighting, but its all I got.

How are we supposed to find good film footage when it wasn't even en vogue to do so until the mid '80s and it even wasn't affordable until the mid 90's?

[Liokault]

Originally posted by SifuAbel

How are we supposed to find good film footage when it wasn't even en vogue to do so until the mid '80s and it even wasn't affordable until the mid 90's?


So we are saying that no "master" has put been filmed using his kung fu in a non co-operative situation? Or are we as I belive saying that many "masters" have been filmed but they either suck, brawl or kickbox.

Or maybe you were trying to say that since the mid 90s kung fu masters have been rare? Or that since the mid 90s kung fu masters have had legal restrictions placed upon the use of good kung fu against a resisting oponent?

[Archangel]

Emin Boztepe and William Cheung

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=22

[rogue]

So we are saying that no "master" has put been filmed using his kung fu in a non co-operative situation? Or are we as I belive saying that many "masters" have been filmed but they either suck, brawl or kickbox. Only the master caught on film suck, the others are all good.

[BlueTravesty]

Originally posted by Liokault



So we are saying that no "master" has put been filmed using his kung fu in a non co-operative situation? Or are we as I belive saying that many "masters" have been filmed but they either suck, brawl or kickbox.

I'm not sure how the kickboxing part is supposed to be ironic since CMA are mostly composed of striking techniques.

Someone told me Muay Thai fighters kickbox when they are in the ring too, but I have yet to check on that myself

;)

[David Jamieson]

that boztepe/cheung thingy is a huge embarassment for them both. yikes that is some sloppy flailing going on there.

too bad cause wing chun is a good fighting art. if only they had used it in that example. :D

cheers

[SifuAbel]

Good one, blue.

The better question here is what or whom do you concider a master?

Time frame, experience level, etc.

Apparently, anybody can be called a master.

For the most part if they do have footage, they aren't sharing. And in my case, I didn't have a camera follow me around and document every time I pooped either.

[Ray Pina]

I think the problem here is that we've come to put credence in anyting on TV (film) and then when it falls short we say it's all bad.

I saw that Emin tape ... horse ****! After reading what went on there I'd actually like to fight that guy, just something in the back of my head. I'll keep training and maybe someday our paths will cross. We'll see how he likes it when a younger, built up, trained guy picks a fight with him. Who knows, maybe somebody will tape it.

Anyway, back to the topic. Visit a credible, recognized "master" and ask to play. Who deemed Emin a master? Go to Mr. CC Chan's school and ask to play with somebody. Come visit our school and ask to play with me: Tues and Fri. nights. Maybe you will beat me, but you will have a war on your hands.

This back and forth about this style can't fight and that style can his rubbish and shows a lack of experience. In every style, their is someone right now training hard, visualising their next fight and they are prepared to bring it.

For every one of those, their are about 35 hobby/recreational martial artists doing forms in the park (think about the ratio at your school). But to judge all styles that way is setting yourself up to be KO'd by the TKD who's been training since birth and has a leg quick like lighting but hard as thunder. Don't confuse him with the popular foot tag folks. They'r eboth out there, one just gets lost in the crowd.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist

Come visit our school and ask to play with me: Tues and Fri. nights. Maybe you will beat me, but you will have a war on your hands.



Nope, You're gonna have to play with yourself Ray. And whatever ends up on your hands is your own **** fault.

[Ray Pina]

:)

I was going to edit that because it seemed a litte outspoken, but then I decided that is truly my mindset when engaging these things. I won't roll over. I have lost in tournaments and in outside playing, but I haven't been "beaten" and I've yet to get ****ed off and fight with anger.

As for playing with myself:) I'm supposed to be fighting April 3rd so its hands off till then. Showing my girl a good time this weekend and then closing up shop. I just hope my **** apponant confirms because I literally aint doing this rode work for my health.

[Archangel]

William Cheung was definately considered a master by his peers and his students. Yes, he was a little bit older in the footage but come on now; after 20 - 30 years experience in Wing Chun you'd think he'd be able to do better than that.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
Someone said in another post, "BAk Mei is not a complete art beause it doesn't have grappling and ground figting."

I've heard that same comment applied to kung fu in general. Why doesn't anyone ever comment on how grappling styles lack the advanced striking methods that kung fu styles like bak mei have. Every K1/Pride fight i've ever seen featured a grappler that had "striking skills" but really only had rudimentary boxing skills.

Kung fu has grappling...but it is dressed up differently than the way styles like aikido and jujutsu do. IMHO, kung fu grappling is a hell of a lot more advanced than all of that aikido/jujutsu stuff put together.

[Ray Pina]

I would think so. I'm also embarassed for him for his excuse: slippery shoes:rolleyes:

Why would you wear slippery shoes to a seminar you are doing, and more importantly, what type of master "slips."

He was taken down and I've seen much better wing chun than that from Chinatown waiters from the Freemason's Lodge... honestly.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by SifuAbel


I wish I had more footage of myself fighting. As it is, I only have a handfull of clips taken on a light contact demo reel we made 13 years ago. It was by no means my best fighting, but its all I got...
...And in my case, I didn'thave a camera follow me around and document every time I pooped either.
You said you spar as a regular part of your training, didn't you? All you have to do is pull out the video camera next time you do a hard sparring session. Shouldn't be a big deal.

Then we can all see what mad skillz you got.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
Someone said in another post, "BAk Mei is not a complete art beause it doesn't have grappling and ground figting."

I've heard that same comment applied to kung fu in general. Why doesn't anyone ever comment on how grappling styles lack the advanced striking methods that kung fu styles like bak mei have. Every K1/Pride fight i've ever seen featured a grappler that had "striking skills" but really only had rudimentary boxing skills.

Kung fu has grappling...but it is dressed up differently than the way styles like aikido and jujutsu do. IMHO, kung fu grappling is a hell of a lot more advanced than all of that aikido/jujutsu stuff put together.

I've been MIA for a few days, so this may have been said, but no, the kung fu grappling is not more advanced. When you have someone who ONLY trains grappling, vs. someone who trains grappling, weapons, striking, etc. whom do you think will be more advanced? the one that's specialized. he'll be better at applying it too, most likely. Also, having some intricate, advanced looking technique only means that it's probably that much harder to actually apply also.

As for your striking question, you don't need pressure point strikes, animal hands or the like to have effective strikes. jab, cross, hook, uppercut, stabbing elbow, cross elbow, diagonal elbow, etc...with those strikes, I can hit you from any angle that you can hit me from. Basics are invaluable.

also, locking can be considered grappling. CMA tends to be called incomplete because of its lack of GROUND grappling.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
You said you spar as a regular part of your training, didn't you? All you have to do is pull out the video camera next time you do a hard sparring session. Shouldn't be a big deal.

Then we can all see what mad skillz you got. Ditto.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by BlueTravesty


I'm not sure how the kickboxing part is supposed to be ironic since CMA are mostly composed of striking techniques.

Someone told me Muay Thai fighters kickbox when they are in the ring too, but I have yet to check on that myself

;)


I see you only have 28 posts on this forum BT so I guess you have missed all the threads entitled along the lines of:

Why does Kung Fu look like kick boxing in the ring?

Some times its put as "poor" kickboxing.


and yes thai boxers do indeed kick box in the ring, but that is because thai boxing in fundimentaly kick boxing(or kick boxing is thai boxing with out knees etc).

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SevenStar
When you have someone who ONLY trains grappling, vs. someone who trains grappling, weapons, striking, etc. whom do you think will be more advanced? the one that's specialized. Are you suggesting that the CMA curriculum is so broad that it takes longer to gain proficiency in certain skill sets than other, more specialized, arts?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Liokault


and yes thai boxers do indeed kick box in the ring, but that is because thai boxing in fundimentaly kick boxing(or kick boxing is thai boxing with out knees etc).

Actually, it's because fundamental movements are always fundamental.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Good one, blue.

The better question here is what or whom do you concider a master?

Time frame, experience level, etc.

Apparently, anybody can be called a master.

For the most part if they do have footage, they aren't sharing. And in my case, I didn't have a camera follow me around and document every time I pooped either.


I think theres no need to get hung up on the master thing. The same question can be asked about anyone skilled in CMA no matter if they are called master or not.




Originally posted by EvolutionFist

For every one of those, their are about 35 hobby/recreational martial artists doing forms in the park (think about the ratio at your school). But to judge all styles that way is setting yourself up to be KO'd by the TKD who's been training since birth and has a leg quick like lighting but hard as thunder. Don't confuse him with the popular foot tag folks. They'r eboth out there, one just gets lost in the crowd.


LOL I think I have met this guy and he gave me quite a shock when we sparred.

I also have video of him repetedly knocking a kung fu guy over in a san shou bout.

[Archangel]

I would think so. I'm also embarassed for him for his excuse: slippery shoes

You have to be kidding me... slippery shoes was his excuse for getting taken down and pummelled. It was obvious to anybody that Mr Chueng did not know how to defend a takedown or survive on the ground. H e l l it didn't even look like he knew how to punch properly.

It's still baffling that a man who was considered a "Grandmaster" by his peers and students could look like an amateur in a real fight.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by Archangel




It's still baffling that a man who was considered a "Grandmaster" by his peers and students could look like an amateur in a real fight.


But if this is true of a man called "the most effective strreet fighter alive" by many (lol before this fight) then what is the state of so many other "masters" ( I use the term master VERY lightly).

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
I've never seen a televised fight involving a bjj player and a supposed master of kung fu. Was this person a self proclaimed master of kung fu...or did he order his belt from the back of a cereal box?

why does it have to be a master? why not your every day exponent? these bjj and mma guys aren't claiming to be masters... And there have been televised fights off mma guys and kung fu exponents. As soon as the CMA guy loses, everyone says he has bad kung fu.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist

The Artist in martial artist doesn't meen pretty to me, it means being a master of the craft and being able to beat the ground fighter on the ground, handle the kicker's kick and the boxer's punching.


well said.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Are you suggesting that the CMA curriculum is so broad that it takes longer to gain proficiency in certain skill sets than other, more specialized, arts?

hmm... sounds about right.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SevenStar


hmm... sounds about right. Curious.

I said the same thing a few weeks ago and the MMA crowd got into a tizzy.

[SifuAbel]

" And there have been televised fights off mma guys and kung fu exponents."

Thats what rubs people wrong. There hasn't. We had three guys calling themselves kung fu ten years ago in UFC. Thats it. It doesn't help that the san shou people ride the fence with their affiliation with CMA.

I don't own a camcorder, yet.

I have gone to the trouble to digitize the clips off the demo reel. So far I can probably post one. How about a little exchange, I post my clip if KF posts his.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Curious.

I said the same thing a few weeks ago and the MMA crowd got into a tizzy.

wasn't me. I've always said that. By design, CMA takes longer to produce a fighter. That brings us back to the training issue, which is what MP and I have a tizzy about.

[SifuAbel]

"CMA takes longer to produce a fighter."

This is a myth. It doesn't take any longer to develope basic skills. Its a myth believed by both sides.
A basic punch is a basic punch. Cross, jab, uppercut, etc. exist in cma. Basic front, side and round kicks too.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
How about a little exchange, I post my clip if KF posts his. I already waste way too much time screwing around with this forum. I sure can't justify taking even more time to do some bs like that- especially since I'm not the one who is saying , "Boy I wish there were some tapes out there of me so everyone could see how awesome I am."

However, here are a couple of suggestions if YOU want to do the work:
- Buy a Dog Bros tape and take my fight(s) from there.
- Call Cox Cable in Torrance and ask them if you can buy one of the tapes of me fighting in Kage Combat.
- Call some local BJJ schools and see if they've got some extra footage floating around of me competing in tournaments around here.
- Come up and spar me. Record it and then you've got both of us.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
"CMA takes longer to produce a fighter."

This is a myth. It doesn't take any longer to develope basic skills. Its a myth believed by both sides.
A basic punch is a basic punch. Cross, jab, uppercut, etc. exist in cma. Basic front, side and round kicks too.

you're right - a basic punch is a basic punch. And once you've moved on to willow palms, various claws, phoenix, eye, etc., began weapons training... the MMA guy is still working those same basics, drilling them, sparring with them, etc.

[SifuAbel]

"Boy I wish there were some tapes out there of me so everyone could see how awesome I am."


Actually, I said:


"I have gone to the trouble to digitize the clips off the demo reel. So far I can probably post one. How about a little exchange, I post my clip if KF posts his."

Maybe you didn't get that.

While you think about it, have another glass of whine.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by SevenStar


you're right - a basic punch is a basic punch. And once you've moved on to willow palms, various claws, phoenix, eye, etc., began weapons training... the MMA guy is still working those same basics, drilling them, sparring with them, etc.

It is ludicris to think that the basics aren't continued with. We don't just stop using them. There is no "moving on too". You may learn new things but the basics remain. Sorry, but thats a very square thought.

I left the whole "forgetting last years lessons" in grade school.

[SifuAbel]

" Come up and spar me. Record it and then you've got both of us."

Perhaps, after my little projects are done, I'll have the time to do just that.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel


It is ludicris to think that the basics aren't continued with. We don't just stop using them. There is no "moving on too". You may learn new things but the basics remain. Sorry, but thats a very square thought.

I left the whole "forgetting last years lessons" in grade school.


Thank you for making my point. Of course you continue with them... IN ADDITION to everything else. There's only so much time to train, and most people (regardless of style) won't even maximize that little bit of time. So, now you are practicing your basics AND the new techniques you are learning, AND weapons, AND forms...

[SifuAbel]

And what , you only train 15 minutes a day or something? Don't have the time?

[SevenStar]

I train for about 2.5 hours. When I was in CMA, 1.5 - but think about it. even if it is only 15 mins, you break up that 15 mins into several sections, whereas I have only one. Who gets more concentrated training time?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
"Boy I wish there were some tapes out there of me so everyone could see how awesome I am."


Actually, I said:


"I have gone to the trouble to digitize the clips off the demo reel. So far I can probably post one. How about a little exchange, I post my clip if KF posts his."

Maybe you didn't get that.

While you think about it, have another glass of whine. Actually, you said:

"I wish I had more footage of myself fighting."

Maybe you forgot that.

While you ponder that, go ahead and think of some more bs.

[BlueTravesty]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Actually, you said:

"I wish I had more footage of myself fighting."

Maybe you forgot that.

While you ponder that, go ahead and think of some more bs.

I hate to jump in where I wasn't asked to, but since there haven't been any new posts for the last 40-odd minutes, I thought I would introduce a couple possibilities:

1.) Perhaps by "I wish I had more footage of myself fighting" SifuAbel meant... that he wished he had more footage of himself fighting. Might be going out on a limb there, but that's my theory.

2.) Perhaps he said this because he would like to demonstrate his point that not all CMA people fight like Steve Urkel from "Family Matters" as so many people seem to have deluded themselves into thinking, and not because he thought he was "awesome."

3.) "Boy I wish there were some tapes out there of me so everyone could see how awesome I am." Was just something KnifeFighter interjected to give the argument some flavor.

4.) That SifuAbel therefore wasn't spouting bs as KnifeFighter seems to be implying.

5.) I am being an @ss.

Now you all think about that while firing off angry responses as to why I must be mistaken.

[Archangel]

There was another Wing Chun fighter who did fight in the Extreme Fighting Championship and was choked out by Igor Zinoviev. His name was Steve Faulkner and he was an instructur under Duncan Leung who was a direct student of Yip Man.

Here is the lineage link I found

http://www.cebridge.com.au/Ipman/


Here is his fighting profile that I found on Sherdog

There's a picture of the chokeout as well as a video (http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/displayfighter.cfm?fighterid=413)

So much for the excuse that there wern't any "REAL" Kung fu fighters in MMA.

[AshidaKimFan]

I don't think "REAL" kung fu fighters would want to waste their time in these mundane contests. REAL kung fu isn't ALL about fighting, it's a way of life.

Let's compare when REAL kung fu fighters and MMA guys get to 80 years old. Who'll be in better health? I picture one group lame and half crippled, and I picture another group moving and feeling like they were 30.

LOL of course I'm one to talk, I do Muay Thai, but I won't do it forever, at some point I'll just focus on doing some chi kung and maybe a form or two, but that's many years down the road...

I don't think it's way too much to do both, I do.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by Archangel
There was another Wing Chun fighter who did fight in the Extreme Fighting Championship and was choked out by Igor Zinoviev. His name was Steve Faulkner and he was an instructur under Duncan Leung who was a direct student of Yip Man.

Here is the lineage link I found

http://www.cebridge.com.au/Ipman/


Here is his fighting profile that I found on Sherdog

There's a picture of the chokeout as well as a video (http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/displayfighter.cfm?fighterid=413)

So much for the excuse that there wern't any "REAL" Kung fu fighters in MMA.



I dont think that pointing out CMA guys getting beaten in MMA is to the point.

I mean you could find any number of Thai boxers who get choked outin MMA, but you could not say that there is no evidance of Thai boxing "masters" being able to fight.

Also the Wing Chun guy you highlighted had only one fight, ok so he lost that one, but I am sure that you could find any number of guys from good MMA gyms who were choked out in their first fight......again no one would say that MMA can not fight.

[Archangel]

I dont think that pointing out CMA guys getting beaten in MMA is to the point.

That was definately not the point. The argument always brought forth by a lot of CMA practioners was that the fighters who did fight in these events were not "true representatives" of Kung Fu. It was funny how quickly they were disowned by their peers as soon as they lost; it was shameful. Steve Faulkner was an instructor under Duncan Leung who was a student of the legendary Yip Man; I pointed him out because he has the lineage and cannot be discounted like the rest.


Also the Wing Chun guy you highlighted had only one fight, ok so he lost that one, but I am sure that you could find any number of guys from good MMA gyms who were choked out in their first fight......again no one would say that MMA can not fight.

The thing is that we could find guys from those same MMA gyms that have been very successful. Can we do that with Kung Fu? Is there a lot of practioners who have made there cirriculum work without crosstraining in other arts. If you want we could look at the other 3 who had a pure kung fu background; Scott Baker, Asbel Cancio and Felix Mitchell.

[PT-Kali]

MMA guys are tough, and so are some kung fu people I've ran across, I don't believe the KF guys I've seen represent KF in it's true form

[AshidaKimFan]

my ninja skills are too deadly for the MMA fights....for example: The night before I fight Rickson Gracie, I have a hot Brazilian prostitute lead Rickson to a remote hotel room in the jungle, where he is weakend by her mounted position :eek: Then, as he nods off to sleep I see the two guerrila fighters I paid $5 to lob in 10 fragmentation grenades (from the safety of my hilltop through my binoculars). The ninja wins again! :cool:

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by PT-Kali
MMA guys are tough, and so are some kung fu people I've ran across, I don't believe the KF guys I've seen represent KF in it's true form

I didn't pick them to represent Kung fu, thats for sure. If I knew this was going to be the one true KF king that was going to represent KF in one shot then you'd think there would be some tournie or commity just for that.

And so what is a kung fu guy loses? What does that prove? How many loses does the average MMA guy have in a particular season? So one kung fu loses one match and its the blanket history? Those numbers don't fly. Didn't that wing chun guy win in anything else? As far as the fight he was in was concerned, he desrved what he got. He flys in, does nothing and flys out, whats up wid' 'dat?

[backbreaker]

I think kungfu is way too generic a term. CMA would be better, but that refers to many different styles and variations of styles. I don't think lineage means anything necessarily, although it can mean alot in some cases. If one kungfu style is good it doesn't mean another is, even in the same style probably

[AshidaKimFan]

I need to teach that Wing Chun guy some ninja skillz. He lost that match yes, but I can guaruntee he won't lose his rematch ;)

[Ray Pina]

Each fighters represents no one but himself and perhaps his school at the most.

Personally, when I win I explain that it was my master's technique that made it possible... I'm just a vehicle that expressed it. When I lose I know it was because I screwed up somewhere, deviated from the basic principles or was forced to do so by someone better than me.

I do want to go to the UFC and K-1. I will represent myself and my school. Win or lose no one can hop on or off because who has seen E-Chuan? Only one or two here and only a little bit.

Different people express Wing Chun principles differently. Can't lump then together. I do take issue with some of their core principles however. I'll swear to my dying day that Bong Sau -- the way Wing Chun uses that shape -- is weak.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by AshidaKimFan
I don't think "REAL" kung fu fighters would want to waste their time in these mundane contests. REAL kung fu isn't ALL about fighting, it's a way of life.

Let's compare when REAL kung fu fighters and MMA guys get to 80 years old. Who'll be in better health? I picture one group lame and half crippled, and I picture another group moving and feeling like they were 30.

LOL of course I'm one to talk, I do Muay Thai, but I won't do it forever, at some point I'll just focus on doing some chi kung and maybe a form or two, but that's many years down the road...

I don't think it's way too much to do both, I do.

of all the 80 year old guys doing CMA that aren't crippled, find out how many of them competed full contact on even a semi pro level. You won't find many. Now, take the MMA guys that are banged up and ask them the same question.

If the CMA guys were competing, then they would be banged up as well. That's a byproduct of fighting at that level, not of the style.

[SifuAbel]

UHHHHHHHHH, I think that is what he's getting at.

That perhaps fighting until you are a crippled mess is a fools errand.

[norther practitioner]

And if the dude is 80 (or dudette) I doubt there was much of an outlet for nhb type fights, ask him how many fights they were in overall...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
UHHHHHHHHH, I think that is what he's getting at.

That perhaps fighting until you are a crippled mess is a fools errand.

UHHHHHHHHHHH, being involved in MMA doesn't mean that you have to compete to that extent. What I'm saying is if you do, that can happen. Of course, CMA in general won't have to worry about that...:p

[AshidaKimFan]

SifuAbel- Thanks, that's exactly what I meant...

BUT like I said, I don't follow my own advice...I love Muay Thai and love getting hit and love hitting, as I'm sure the NHB MMA folks know what I'm talking about...I'm not trying to be contradictory, just trying to say that Kung Fu shouldn't be compared to MMA, on fighting level or ANY level, they serve two different functions...

sort of like Yin and Yang, surely martial artists know what I'm speaking of here..

[SevenStar]

who / what determines that function?

[norther practitioner]

I do.

[AshidaKimFan]

the individual stylist determines the function...

MMA folks train to fight in the ring, or for better street fighting ability, or for a feeling of security to protect themselves or loved ones, whatever;

Kung Fu stylists train for a better understanding of themselves, to be a part of ancient history and to pass down forms etc. For better lifelong health, and whatever SOME people want you to believe it or not, you can learn viable self-defense from kung fu.

This is my opinion, and may not be shared by everyone. Asking someone else you'll get different answers, different opinions etc. Everyone knows that what they study is the best :D

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by SevenStar


UHHHHHHHHHHH, being involved in MMA doesn't mean that you have to compete to that extent. What I'm saying is if you do, that can happen. Of course, CMA in general won't have to worry about that...:p

MMA's entire arguement for dominance is based on the heavy competition. Without it, you don't have a case.

[AshidaKimFan]

To quote the Grandmaster Ashida Kim:

So it must be in the life of the Nina then...to play in the Greeat Game, yet be untouched by it; to remain honed to fighting edge, prepared, capable; to act in preservation of the balance of Nature intends or for the pleasure of acting; to strive always to become a Man of Knowledge and lead by example, being both feared and loved. In this way one may pass his time in relative peace and harmony.

[Knifefighter]

Helio Gracie is about 86. He is still spry, trains and teachs, and has had a boatload of NHB fights under his belt.

[Archangel]

Doesn't it seem strange to anyone else that the only footage people have of pure CMA stylists fighting is when they fight poorly.

a) the White Crane vs Tai Chi match

b) William Chueng and Emin Boztepe

c) Steve Faulkner vs Zinoviev

d) Scott Baker vs Delucia

e) Royce vs Delucia

f) San Soo instructor vs John Marsh

Sure Muay Thai, wrestling, BJJ, Judo have lost but they have also won a fair share as well. There are literally hundereds of fights that can be witnessed on DVD,VHS the net. Was it just a big conspiracy against traditional arts?

Why is it that only the fights in which they have lost or looked really bad have made it to the Net?

[AshidaKimFan]

Good question Archangel.

I know why Ninjutsu hasn't had any real fighting shown out there on video, it's 'cause it's a deadly secret fighting art.

And you UFC guys don't bring up Jennum, either. He was being punished by the Astral Gods for his not being faithful to the realm of the Ninja. After all, we ninja would never put ourselves in a situation like that, we prefer to sneak up behind you and stab you in the back, or put poison in the MMA guy's amino acids :D

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
MMA's entire arguement for dominance is based on the heavy competition. Without it, you don't have a case. Not true... I saw a bunch of traditional guys come into the Gracie academy over the years who got creamed by BJJ/MMA guys who did not have much competition experience and didn't go on to a heavy competition career.

[Chang Style Novice]

Sure, but there's plenty of competition within the class, right? Or if you don't like the term competition for what happens in class, plenty of practice where the object is to submit the other guy without regard for his ego. Coddling egos is the big problem in so called 'traditionalism,' I think we can all agree.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Archangel
a) the White Crane vs Tai Chi match

b) William Chueng and Emin Boztepe

c) Steve Faulkner vs Zinoviev

d) Scott Baker vs Delucia

e) Royce vs Delucia

f) San Soo instructor vs John Marsh Don't forget that huge CMA guy who lost to Rickson Gracie in Pride.

Then there was that 360 lb. Budukon Kung Fu guy who fought the pro wrestler in one of the Extreme events.

[jon]

Real kung fu fights happen on ladders which are on fire and precariously balanced over huge drops. Then there are the other times when we have to fight on wooden poles buried on end into the ground and the ground is covered in spikes! Not to metion all those matches which take place whilst flying accross forests and jumping over peoples houses.
We also need to be aware of the ever looming possibility of being assailed by a group of ninja warriors who attack on mass in the middle of the night - with weapons.

Yeah... bet you mma guys couldnt get your arm bars and rear naked chokes happenin in our world!

Besides if MMA is so cool then why didnt Neo use it in the Matrix?

[AshidaKimFan]

We also need to be aware of the ever looming possibility of being assailed by a group of ninja warriors who attack on mass in the middle of the night - with weapons

that's right Jon, and if the films were made as it truly happens (Chinese filmmakers falsify the evidence) then everyone would know that we Ninja killed all the Shaolin guys and took their women back to Japan and used them as our personal concubines

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel


MMA's entire arguement for dominance is based on the heavy competition. Without it, you don't have a case.

Not true. The argument for dominance is inthe training methods. Those methods are driven by the will to compete, but is not of competition itself.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Helio Gracie is about 86. He is still spry, trains and teachs, and has had a boatload of NHB fights under his belt.

exactly. And as I've stated before, one of my judo coaches - a three time national champ - is 74 and still teaches and trains.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Archangel
Doesn't it seem strange to anyone else that the only footage people have of pure CMA stylists fighting is when they fight poorly.

a) the White Crane vs Tai Chi match

b) William Chueng and Emin Boztepe

c) Steve Faulkner vs Zinoviev

d) Scott Baker vs Delucia

e) Royce vs Delucia

f) San Soo instructor vs John Marsh

Sure Muay Thai, wrestling, BJJ, Judo have lost but they have also won a fair share as well. There are literally hundereds of fights that can be witnessed on DVD,VHS the net. Was it just a big conspiracy against traditional arts?

Why is it that only the fights in which they have lost or looked really bad have made it to the Net?

To CMA credit, there is video out there, you just won't find it online. WD has some footage of one of Max Chen's san shou fights. Someone somewhere must have more of them on tape.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by AshidaKimFan

Kung Fu stylists train for a better understanding of themselves


That is also accomplished in mma. it's not some secret, mystical bs that only those training in tma are priviledged enough to partake in.

to be a part of ancient history and to pass down forms etc.

you're not a part of ancient history. And even if that were the case, competition would make you more likely to be a part of history. Look at guys like chang tung sheng, jigoro kano, etc. They are known for something, be it fighting, developing a style, great teaching or any combination of those. So, who's most likely to become a part of history - the guy who competed constantly, won, trained champions, etc. or the guy who only trained because he "wanted to be a part of history" and never really accomplished anything?


For better lifelong health

See my above post about having a 74 year old coach.


and whatever SOME people want you to believe it or not, you can learn viable self-defense from kung fu.

That was not an issue of debate.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by jon

Besides if MMA is so cool then why didnt Neo use it in the Matrix?


Because it doesn't have all the flowery motions that look good on film. Duh. :D

However -

FMA in "The Borne Identity"

Smeagul applying a rear naked choke in "The Two Towers"

The scene in the alley in "Training Day"

and various others show that mma type stuff can look good on film. :p

[SifuAbel]

A)was fifty years ago.
B) was a monentary sucker swipe and Boztepe ran off.

Both were the objects of ridicule in CMA circles. Neither of them was a UFC bout.

So did faulkner and delucia win ANY of their fights EVER besides these?

Lets not forget the mismatch of the century Sean vs. John. Also not a UFC bout, more like a hand pick.

Is this it?

So, knife, when I call cox cable what do I ask for?


"The argument for dominance is inthe training methods."

So we are back to the "my style is better" stuff......... :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

Without a medical history, none of the above claims of health in old age is admisable and that includes the CMA masters. Purely external CMA masters tend not to live long at all. Its usually the internalists that have the greatest percentage of vigorous longevity. Also, being able to stand straight and walk around isn't what good health means . How many medicines does helio have to take a day? Whats his organ health like? Again, without a history its hearsay.
And for ever one judoka you know that is in perfect health I know 10 that aren't and I mean KNOW. Since half my community were judoka. Heck, My dad had a brown belt. Judo was big in Cuba.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
A)was fifty years ago.

so the masters back then fought like that?


Both were the objects of ridicule in CMA circles. Neither of them was a UFC bout.

I've heard alot of ridicule about bozteppe, but I haven't heard much about cheung. Then again, I don't keep up with WC politics either...

So did faulkner and delucia win ANY of their fights EVER besides these?

dude...Delucia's record is like 33-19 - he's won ALOT since then. But of course, as everyone says, his cma is poor...


"The argument for dominance is inthe training methods."

So we are back to the "my style is better" stuff.........

Not the style - the style's training methods. And we've never left that topic, so no we're not back to it, just still on it.

[SifuAbel]

Its not about how they fight, its a bit of a reach to go that far back to get some ****ing footage.

It is poor and yet he won some anyway.

Not the style, the school. I will meet you half way there.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Judo was big in Cuba.

was? It still is from what I understand.

[SifuAbel]

I don't concider that cuba anymore.

ST, not a word.............

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Its not about how they fight, its a bit of a reach to go that far back to get some ****ing footage.

it wasn't used soley for that reason, I'm sure. Someone was just looking for CMA fight footage and happened to find that.

It is poor and yet he won some anyway.

I'll stay away from that one, as the most recent story I heard is that he abandoned cma after he got schooled by royce before the ufc.

Not the style, the school. I will meet you half way there.

And different schools have what? Different training methods...

[SevenStar]

why didn't you go down the judo path like your dad?

[SifuAbel]

"And different schools have what? Different training methods..."

Yep.

"it wasn't used soley for that reason, I'm sure. Someone was just looking for CMA fight footage and happened to find that."

Bulllllshnaps, I saw that clip ten years ago on VHS. It was circulating among the CMA crowd long before someone purposely digitized it and put it up. You think they digitize themselves? And, back when this was digitized it was an expensive process.

thats not what his web site says.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by SevenStar
why didn't you go down the judo path like your dad?

I got lucky and found a better kung fu teacher. Which was rare back then too.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel

thats not what his web site says.

his website also lists mantis as one of the 5 animals, if I remember correctly. people bill themselves in certain ways to make a name for themselves. Ever hear about Gary Goodridge? He wanted to be in UFC, and the kuk sool won organization gave him an honorary 4th degree black belt, even though he had only like a week of training in the style.

Remember brian genese from the ealry 90's crime drama "street justice"? he trained tkd and some cma. He has a legit BB in tkd, but an honorary black sash in hung gar...

Back to delucia, even though his website says 5 animals, he refers to himself as sensei, and his school as a dojo, if I remember right. Also, if you look at his class schedule, he doesn't teach kung fu at all.

[SifuAbel]

Doesn't that tell you something?

[SevenStar]

That he may not have THE kung fu?

[SifuAbel]

:D

[Ray Pina]

Don't generalize all Chinese Martial Arts stylists that way! That is exactly the notion many of us are literally fighting to disprove.

Yes, the training strenghtens me, makes me much more aware of my body, it's structure and the way it relates to my environment.

With all that said, I strap on the gloves and bang and bang and bang some more. I have a fight April 3rd in fact and my forearms are bruised up from training ... better than my face, those would have been uppercuts to the chin.

Anyway, this is Martial Arts not yogo. I study internal and my master does stress that everyone is healthy first, he doesn't want to ruin our bodies by training. But if you want to fight, he's more than willing to train you for it, just no pressure.

Implying that an Internal Martial Artists is somehow aproaching fighting in some cushy, non-physical way is rediculous. I'm getting hit and kicked and thrown and doing the same back. Not line drills, free fighting.

Thoe guys I saw at King of San Da 6, Mr. Ross' (LKMF's) guys, they were busting each other up pretty well. That doesn't come from playing patty cake in pajamas.

I've seen both sides. I've been at kung fu schools that were heavy on forms and joking around chi sau and I've been at schools where head gear and gloves where the rule ... every class.

It depends on what you want. But just because you chose one or avoided the other don't deny their existence. Kung Fu fighting is alive and well, you just have to look for it.

I also know the theory of everybody's learning the good stuff. Great! As long as you can hang with the other stylist, than your training is not failing you. But if you're just the school champ, how do you know what you have. You have to go out to play.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Kung Fu fighting is alive and well, you just have to look for it.



E-Fist is correct. Man, those kick were fast as lightening!

[Ray Pina]

Were you there? Did you compete? I would have loved to introduce myself.

My apponant never showed. And there's been no conformation for April 3rd yet. Either way, I'm training.

I was pretty impressed with Mr. Ross' gym. Very nice. I think that's a great thing they have going there. It will improve everyone who participates.

[Water Dragon]

You totally missed the joke, didn't you? :)

[Ray Pina]

I think I got it now: relating the difficulty of finding fighting kug fu to the speed of the kicks;) :confused:

[norther practitioner]

Good luck with your fight on the 3rd E-fist if/when it happens.:D

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I think I got it now: relating the difficulty of finding fighting kug fu to the speed of the kicks;) :confused:

Nope. Now why do you think I would mention those kicks being fast as lightening right after you talk about Kung Fu Fighting?

[Ralphie]

because it was a little bit frightening?

[red5angel]

ah, a thread like this wouldn't be complete with out a not so subtle reference to every CMA practitioners favorite song.... :)

[Ray Pina]

**** ... right over my head. I only know the refrain: 'Everybody was Kung Fu fighting." That's all they play in movies.

[SifuAbel]

Woh, ho-ho, hoooOOOOOOoooo.......

[SifuAbel]

Well, I have my clip ready. Can we have an exchange?

I'll show you mine , you show me yours. ;)

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Anyway, this is Martial Arts not yogo. I had to quit Yogo. It made my Dan Tien hurt.

[Unmatchable]

Ninjitsu is most deadly.. one guy told me that a ninja can get into a room with n o windows and no doors and kill you without you even knowing it.. just BAM! yor dead ...d-e-d dead

[Pork Chop]

Did they figure that out when they invented magic spells for flying, sticking to walls, and bio slime?

Or was that closer to when they discovered flipping out and God gave them dominion over everything that was totally sweet?

Coz I know it was before the 3 wise ninjas brought baby Jesus ninja stars, a guitar, and a hot babe...

[Liokault]

But they fought with expert timing.

[SevenStar]

HUAH!

[Unmatchable]

Here is a similar thread:

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing;action=display;num=1078232194; start=0

btw any of you guys see the Asia baji clip?

[SPJ]

The stretagy to deal with the opponent's arms: You may confine them (BA Ji), You may contact/stick and follow. (Tai Ji) You may dodge (Western Boxing). You may hook/diau (Praying Mantis, Tong Bei). You may contact/Guo and deflect upward (Tiao), laterally or downard (Intercept/Lan) on and on. Wushu contain stretagy to deal with the arm/door, so as to open the door to attack or the opponent may not use the arm to attack again.

Groundfighting is part of all Wushu. The most famous is Di Tang Quan and drunken boxing. If the opponent is too strong on the top and mid level, you have to go low. If you somehow fell to the ground, you need some moves to defend and get back on your feet again.

K-1 and kickboxing, boxing and wrestling, Judo etc are entertainments or "sports" or show with rules. They are not street fight or actual fight. Wushu is based on thousands of years of actual combat and survival.

Please check out the books: A winner guide to life, meditation, and martial arts; The treasure books of Chinese martial arts, www.1stbooks.com

The truth will come out by arguing pro and con. This is a process of Chan/Zen.

Qin Na are 2 arts. Qin is to capture. Na is to lock on the limbs against the inflexibility of the joints. How to master Qin Na. Please find out more in the books above.


Humbly yours;

[travelsbyknight]

I'm wondering how you keep major injuries from occuring at your school while all of you are banging around with the gear. Helmets don't protect heads very well.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SPJ

Groundfighting is part of all Wushu.

but ground grappling is not.

The most famous is Di Tang Quan and drunken boxing. If the opponent is too strong on the top and mid level, you have to go low. If you somehow fell to the ground, you need some moves to defend and get back on your feet again.

sure, but when you are thrown to the ground and your opponent falls on top of you...

K-1 and kickboxing, boxing and wrestling, Judo etc are entertainments or "sports" or show with rules. They are not street fight or actual fight. Wushu is based on thousands of years of actual combat and survival.

Are YOU on a battlefield right now? Are YOU in a fight for your life? No. So your training is not geared the same way that theirs was. The sport guys are training for a fight that will definitely happen. you are training for something that may or may not happen. The rules that they have allow them to compete full contact - that gives them a distinct advantage in most instances. Don't disount it becuase it's a "sport"

Qin Na are 2 arts. Qin is to capture. Na is to lock on the limbs against the inflexibility of the joints. How to master Qin Na. Please find out more in the books above.


Transfer it directly to a ground situation...

[SPJ]

Well said. Well said.

We should pay more money to police and servicemen and firefighters who are actual fighters in line of duty. We should reward Olympic winners for wrestling, Judo etc. They are out of jobs as soon as they won golds for their countries.

Along the same line, K-1, prowrestlers, boxers should not get paid with millions of dollars. Agreed, they are serious fighters day in and day out. however, you have to buy a ticket to watch them. We do not pay enough for solidiers in Iraq facing their threats for lives day in and day out, too.

I do not get paid for studying Wushu. When I was a young boy, I was asked to practice one Wushu after another. I challenged my father. What a waste of time. Bullets are faster than fists. What is the use of Wushu. I am not a ganster. I do not want to hurt people. What is the point.

My father said Wushu is to study how to fight and yet you will learn how not to fight. Wushu is not about hurting other people. Wushu is about not to be hurt by other people. Wushu is not about breaking the boards. Wushu is about not to be broken by the boards. I said Huh?

He continued why did Nato and Warsaw pact exercise every year, so that they may fight the big fight, NO! so that they may not have to fight. Why did US and USSR build thousands of nuclear war heads so that they destroy each other a thousand times over. NO! So that they may not have to fight a nuclear war. I muted.

When I was asked to study Wushu, I was not to become the superfighter of all time. I learned all the defense theories of Wushu. I may appreciate the wisdoms of the ancients. who cares anyway. Granted I am no fighter. I am simply a student of defense theories and practices of Wushu.

Humbly yours.

[Ray Pina]

We actually pride ourselves on being healthy and not getting injured.

You will not be aloud to spar at our school until you demonstrate an ability to protect your head. Of course you will get hit, this is understood, but you need to learn the basics, which could take anywhere from 5-7 months to a yeat depending on the person. Otherwise, you'll pretty much just be a punching bag ... most of the guys at the school have previous experience in the 3-year+ range. Many in the 10-year+ range.

If there's a mismatch, we can still train. Person A can do whatever he wants with his hands (jab, hook, upper cut, press, jam, trap, ect) but person B can only shield and come in and jam.

Injuries are a delifcate issue. We've recently picked up the training because of some up coming fights and some new guys see some experienced guys banging around and want to play. But at the same time they may complain about getting dumped in line drills, ect. Then my master gets careful and keeps that training on the side for certain time, places.

A lot of people have a hard time distinguishing between injured and hurt. You should get hurt a little bit (bruses, sore muscles, ect.).

My only injury at the school was a torn ligament in my wrist about a year ago from uppercutting. It's healed.

The secret in staying relatively safe is training with good people and having someone responsible guide the action and call the breaks. Same for ground work.

The most important thing though, is train at your level. If you're training to fight you have to expect to take shots, but at the same time you need to know how to absorb them somewhat.


--------

Regarding UFC. I hear the "sport" analogy all the time. True! But can't these people see it is as close to the real thing as it gets? Mabe even closer, because with money on the line the guy just isn't going to let up and walk away like on the street many times. And his friends won't break it up.

You are there, one man against one man.

I am weary of people saying they won't fight because their time proven techniques are too dangerous. Kids with no training know hot to bite and poke the eyes and hit the groin. Everyone knows how to do that BUT CAN YOU? Can you open the other guys door while keeping your door closed and then hit.

I know Hung Gar guys thats wear by grapping the throte. Works well in line drills. But can you get passed the jab, hook, uppercut combo coming at your first? Pin him so he can't bob away?

If I can hit your face clean and clear that I can hit your throte just the same. This is the value of sport. Not to say that anyone or style is the best, but to test what you got vs what he got and learn from it.

Avoiding this scenario is OK, but don't offend those fighters by passing it off as patty cake.

[scotty1]

Agreed, good post by EF.

[travelsbyknight]

Evolutionfist, when you spar do you actually apply what you're learning or do you turn into a kickboxer?


I reread one of your posts. It seems to me that you haven't had much experience in any art besides Isshin Ryu and the one you're studying now.

"I studied southern mantis for five years while studying wing chun and hung gar. At the same time I also studied bak mei on the side for two years."

Did you learn anything besides a superficial view of each named art? It takes years to master ONE style...and from what you've written it seems you haven't mastered any. How did you become an authority on kung fu?

[SevenStar]

trying to resist.....do not respond.....ignore the revert to kickboxing remark....

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SevenStar
trying to resist.....do not respond.....ignore the revert to kickboxing remark....

Be strong, SevenSTar... think of the children...

[BlueTravesty]

ahhh, the old "reverting to kickboxing" routine...

*sigh*

Read a few posts on those threads... I hope this one doesn't go that way... an obscene and totally unjustifiable amount of flaming and ventriloquism (putting words in other people's mouths, a la Coach Ross and Master Killer) went on in those threads.

Like the man said- think of the children!! Won't somebody think of the children??

[Internal Boxer]

"If I can hit your face clean and clear that I can hit your throte just the same. This is the value of sport. Not to say that anyone or style is the best, but to test what you got vs what he got and learn from it"

Matt Thornton phrases it as a "delivery system" ie. constructive sparring, rolling in submission fighting, and competition fighting.

[Ray Pina]

First, I don't consider myself the authority on Kung Fu, but I do consider myself knowledgable.


Yes, Isshin-Ryu is the style I have the most years with 4 years old to 8th grade and then again the during college.

Moved to NY and trained Hung Gar, Wing Chun for about 3 years. And then S. Mantis for about 3 years... two of them at the same time as the other.

Now I've been training with my master for 3 years.


Having a strong foundation in martial arts has given me ability. I got what I wanted from Wing Chun, the sticking, the trapping, the angles. I already know how to punch and kick. I didn't have those tools. When I had them and started beating the seniors and disciples at the school, I started to see what the school (style) lacked and moved on.

S Mantis gave me agression and the always go forward and into the attack mentality. In truth, not huge technology from that teacher, just a great mindset, more sticking and the tighening up of element blows from Hung Gar ... especialy Earth.

Now at the internal level, I've learned how to truly hit with the entire body, move more efficiently, internal tactics and principles.

On top of all of this I have been fighting, testing. I am not a pro, but MA is more than a hobby to me. I see some technology I don't have and want I don't stop until I understand it, develop it and test it. This is not unique. Tons of guys are doing it.

As far as reverting to Kick Boxing, I find that funny. I fought a tournament last March in Philly and took bronze, losing to the champ (he was 250lbs I was 198 lbs) via decision. Afterwards the head ref came up to me and said that had to give it to him because it looks like I was boxing.... I find it funny and admit to the outside guy I do.

But how does a 198lbs student box a 250lbs sifu and last 3 rounds? I also get that I'm just fast and strong when I play. They never understand that it's position, my fists are closer to the target.

I'm fighting April 3rd and will hopefully have some tape of it. So you can tell me.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Well, I have my clip ready. Can we have an exchange?

I'll show you mine , you show me yours. ;)

Hint, my clip is already available on KFM.

[travelsbyknight]

Evolutionfist.







<<<Having a strong foundation in martial arts has given me ability. I got what I wanted from Wing Chun, the sticking, the trapping, the angles. I already know how to punch and kick. I didn't have those tools. When I had them and started beating the seniors and disciples at the school, I started to see what the school (style) lacked and moved on .>>>


I especially love the part about you "beating" seniors and disciples. No offense dude...but I think you're blowing your own horn way too much on these forums. Flame war? Some people attract flaming to them. I'm surprised that other freak Blacktaoist hasn't replied. He's as egotistical as you. Maybe you beat him senseless and that's why he stays away.

Anyway. When you say you "beat" these seniors and disciples, did this happen in ACTUAL combat or were you guys chi saoing or sparring...having a ****ing contest?? Give a definition here. What school did these so called "beatings" happen at? I'd like to know the name of the school that Evolutionfist managed to beat out of existence.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by SifuAbel


Hint, my clip is already available on KFM.

Hint 2, its under the word "knoweth"

[Ray Pina]

Dude, why are you on my jock? Going to old posts and cutting and pasting? What do you want from me? You asked, I told.

You want to know my old Kung Fu school? It's Ling Nam Su Lum on Hempstead Turnpike in East Meadow, NY (Wing Chun, Hung Gar).

The S. Mantis was tough privately by my sifu, a student of Mr. Milton Chin (Uncle Milton). Maybe some people here know who that is. If you got your panties in a bunch, PM me and I'll give you his e-mail.

As for Novell. He came to my master's school about 2.5 years ago on a night I didn't train to fight and things were squashed. Then they were heated up again and I told him I would fight him but ideally I would like to have a year to train (he's MUCH bigger than me and has been training internal (actually teaching) much longer than I had been.) He was cool enough to give it to me. I forgot about it, he reminded me, I was injured from fighting and asked for two months and then we haven't spoken since.

Now, three years later I feel comfortable enough with what I know to enter a ring and fight. I know I have a lot more to learn. I also know me and Novell will probally be together again in the future, either as allies or apponants ... we actually both want the same thing, but share similiar strong viewpoints.

I saw his teacher/partner's post here not long ago and actually wanted to post and ask about a chi sau group they have but I decided not to thinking it might be taken the wrong way. An old training brother of mine now trains with them and I know they don't fool around so just wanted to see.

Other than that I don't know what to tell you, I can show you some footage from my upcoming fight or you can come see for yourself. I speak my mind when inclined. If someone posts something that I think can misdirect someone with less experience reading these posts I speak up. It's just my opinion, don't worry, it won't hurt you.

If you think lifting weights is the way to go, go lift weights and hope the guy you fight can't lift more than you. If you think you can "out tough" or "out do him with the same thing he's doing" again, good luck. I'm just the guy saying you should examine your technique and always think of the other guy as bigger, stronger and more able, and discover technical power (which does not come from hitting the heavy bag, it's a study of mechanics).