Spine compression

[sticky fingers]

After a heavy session of chisau I always feel like my spine is 'compressed' and need to stretch by touching my toes. I can hear my spine cracking and popping when I stretch.

Is it a normal thing to have a 'compressed spine'? Is it a sign of good rooting or am I doing something wrong?

[yuanfen]

Stickyfingers-
IMO- the more good chi sao one does---it should loosen not
compress your spine.
You may be "muscle-ing" it.

[Gangsterfist]

Are you keeping your spine straight in upright alignment? Or are you curving it like a white dragon kind of stance?

Compressing a vertabre would hurt you very bad, so I would say you are probably not compressing it. However, when you work out (like chi sao) your weakest muscles get it the worst and are the sorest.

To help strengthen your back you can do push ups but cross your legs when you do them. So you basically have one foot on the ground and the second one crossed over it. This will work your lower back. You could also try doing some inverted situps. Strap your legs to your bed or get someone to hold them, hang over the ledge a little below your waist line (facing the floor, so you are inverted), and do crunches. That will also work out your back.

You may want to post in the fitness forum here, I know very little compared to some of those guys. You might want to also do some basic taiji/qigong warm up drills before practicing kung fu. That will also help align your body and perhaps aleviate some of your back pains.

Good luck in your training,
GF

[Keng Geng]

Sitting meditation. Sit on the edge of a flat chair, no leaning, against the back.. Back straight - nor arching of lower back, shoulders down. Breath in through your nose, and out through your mouth. You will probably feel pain in varioius areas of the spinal area. If you do this everyday, the pain will move away from the spine towards the sides of your body.

Obviously, you, like many others, have a weakness somewhere in your back. The problem with other exercises such as push ups and crunches, is that they can introduce other problems.

As for sinking, your spine should still feel stretched even though your weight is sunken. I.e. your spine doesn't sink, your hips do.

[sticky fingers]

No, I don't get a sore back at all with wing chun training.
I try to keep my back as properly aligned as possible at all times.
I do pullups and pushups once or twice a week.

The feeling is like if you have your fists clenched for too long, you just want to interlock your fingers, stretch and crack those knuckles.

I get that with the spine after a long session. Feels tight and slightly uncomfortable, but not sore. And not sore the next day either.

[foolinthedeck]

hmmm,

i wonder whether u mislead us by calling the thread spine compression. from what you last said about it, it sounds more like a feeling i often get. basically the more wing chun i do, or meditation for that matter, the more AWARE i become of the residual tension that is in my spine. So although i am actually relaxing more, i feel the tension more than in daily life. is this the same as you sticky?

if so i'd recommend you keep doing the same but keep on trying to relax, pilates is great for core strength and for some reason i dont get the same feelings when doing yang taiji - perhaps it relaxs even more??

[anerlich]

The spine is meant to move and stretch. Daily activity and gravity will tend to compress the disks between the vertebrae. Stretching, including hanging from a bar, will promote spinal health. Staying in ANY one position for too long will lead to stiffness. Yoga is excellent.

If you have some sort of weakness or muscular imbalance, no amount of seated meditation will alter that, though attention to your posture is all to the good and meditation has other benefits. You have to do specific exercises to fix the imbalance, and to do so requires guidance from an experienced physical therapist (your Sifu may do, but only if he has real qualifications in the discipline concerned, not just knows a bit of qigong and a few stretching exercises his Sifu showed him).

Meditation will do about as much to correct a muscular or spinal problem as it will to increase your vertical jump.

I have an spondyliolisthesis of the lumbar spine, with a damaged L5 slipped anteriorly over S1. If you think the situation you are having with your back is problematic, you should have seen me in my twenties - you really have little to complain about. I had years of spinal alignments via chiropractic (one of my teachers at that time was a chiropractor and acupuncturist) - and did lots of seated meditation too, but it would always screw up if I tried to push it even moderately. It was only after seeing a good physical therapist in my mid-30's that things began to improve - and they improved FAST.

My spine is much healthier at 49 than it was at 19 - I do about three hours of BJJ rolling a week on top of WC and BJJ classes, I can do the splits, kick to the head, spar full contact, and run up to eight miles with no pain, none of which I could do 30 years ago.

I mention this not to toot my own horn but rather to show I am speaking from experience.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by anerlich
Meditation will do about as much to correct a muscular or spinal problem as it will to increase your vertical jump. That's right anerlich, it would increase your vertical jump.

(Yours is not the only experience.)

[PaulH]

Thanks for the advice, Anerlich! I do have a strong muscular imbalance on my spine. Been looking around for a solution for a long while!

Regards,
PH

[anerlich]

That's right anerlich, it would increase your vertical jump.

Scientific study? Or at least anecdotal evidence?


(Yours is not the only experience.)

Never said it was.

If you have any of relevance that is non-imaginary, feel free to enlighten us ...:o

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by anerlich
Scientific study? Or at least anecdotal evidence? It worked for me - it didn't work for you. No biggie.

[anerlich]

It worked for me - it didn't work for you. No biggie.

With your vertical jump? No biggie? Come on, this is potentially HUMUNGOUS.

You could sell this to jumping and other athletes in this, the Olympic year, and make a truckload of cash.

If you could demonstrate that it works better than, say. more conventional exercise programs, plyos, etc.

[Keng Geng]

I took the term "vertical jump" literally with respect to my personal scope. I didn't realize you were referring to the Olympic sport - haha.

Okay it won't make your vertical jump, but it will help, like a slow and steady turtle.

[yylee]

May be... the legs are getting tense after a while so the spine is caught between the tense legs and the pressure from your Chi Sau partner.

Or the spine is being kept rigidly straight by muscles, rather than "feeling" straight. Of course it is hard for observer to tell you how to feel straight. Some (I think Robert Chu's group) would say line up your 3 Dan Tien points, I guess this is one way to find the feeling.

[Ultimatewingchun]

sticky fingers:

Getting back to your original post on this thread....

You weren't doing chi sao again in the attic, were you ?

You know...where the ceiling is only five feet high ?


No...? Okay, just checking !

[Ultimatewingchun]

Wow !...Feel like a dope. I made my post about the attic before reading all of Anerlich's post about his condition as a younger man.

This is serious business for all concerned...isn't it ?!

Sorry about that....

[anerlich]

Okay it won't make your vertical jump, but it will help, like a slow and steady turtle.

Fair enough.

Victor,

No sweat .... I'm happy to say my back problems really are almost totally in the past.

[Keng Geng]

For years I had tried to develop my posture. I tended to slouch. Wing Chun only taught me that I must have a straight back. After years and years of correcting myself, it only happened through meditation. I never had to tell myself again, it was just there, as well as all the appurtenances.

[anerlich]

You really need to think in terms of structure and function, and how they interrelate. Upgrade the 'software' not the 'hardware' - it will follow of its own accord. Seated meditation can do that.

Actually, I think YOU need to think harder about structure and its impact on function.

Sorry, but software upgrades do not generally rectify hardware problems.

At an extreme, no amount of meditation will ever rectify the structure to make a paraplegic walk again - though, at this stage nothing else will either.

More to the point, if you have a spinal subluxation or muscular imbalance, you need to adjust the spine or strengthen/stretch the weak musculature. Meditation may correct poor postural habits, but it will do zip if you have real structural problems and deficiencies, and to tell people otherwise is to mislead them and perhaps delay them getting the help which may actually make a difference.

[Gangsterfist]

good post anerlich, I would have to agree with you. If there were no benefical points to chyropractic medicine, then it probably would not exist really. I would say contact a physician if the problem gets worse.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by anerlich
At an extreme, no amount of meditation will ever rectify the structure to make a paraplegic walk again One doesn't really know for sure, but now we're getting into a different issue.

[anerlich]

good post anerlich, I would have to agree with you. If there were no benefical points to chyropractic medicine, then it probably would not exist really. I would say contact a physician if the problem gets worse.

Well, exactly. BTW, chiropractors are not the only ones to adjust the spine, physiotherapists do this as well.


One doesn't really know for sure, but now we're getting into a different issue.

It's a bad analogy, I concede. My point is that some (perhaps most) injuries and structural problems cannot be significantly affected by keeping good posture or mental/spiritual exercises. Other than minor ailments, I would venture that most would respond, or respond better, to hands on treatment and rehabilitative exercises, than any course of meditation.

I don't have a problem with meditation or postural work per se (though most of the latter IMO requires movement, not stillness).

I DO have a *real* problem with anyone who says it will work in all cases and that people with certain classes of spinal or muscular problem are wasting their time seeking active therapy. My quality of life would DEFINITELY be much poorer if I'd gone down such a path.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by anerlich
I DO have a *real* problem with anyone who says it will work in all cases and that people with certain classes of spinal or muscular problem are wasting their time seeking active therapy. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that.

[anerlich]

Of course, one has to take into account the detail of the particular case - but most musculoskeletal problems are caused by incorrect use, and those that aren't can nearly always be significantly helped by finding better ways of use around the problem.

Wow. Can you spell "sweeping generalisations"? Are you a therapist? Have you ever suffered from a severe back ailment?

Mine was caused either by an accident or a congenital defect, the doctor was unable to tell for sure. The chiropractor thought it was a result of the accident.

"POP" goes that bubble.


here's the problem, you need to bridge the gap in your thinking between meditation and exercise.

If I didn't think there was a link, I wouldn't do yoga. HERE's the problem, your idea of where the intersections of the two lie (based on ... ?) do not match mine, based on actual experience with a significant back problem. I agree there are are links between the two (he11, there are links between everything) but in my experience not to the degree you postulate.

I'm not advocating conditioning, either. I am advocating rehabilitation.


The thing is, human hardware is not computer hardware

You brought up the software/hardware analogy, and I agree you chose it poorly.

.
No, but i can think of examples of how people with cerebral palsy, stroke victims, etc have been helped to do things they'd never imagined with the help of neuromuscular explorations with a significant 'meditative' element.

Perhaps you could point to references rather than just "thinking of" them?


there is movement even in standing meditation.

If you say so, but we started by discussing seated meditation.


Of course, those are extreme examples, and what we're talking about here are much more subtle changes.

What YOU are talking about are much more subtle changes, which IMO are all you will ever get from your dubious recommendations regarding self-healing.

There was nothing subtle about the therapeutic changes I had to go through to get my back fixed.

If you REALLY think I could have got from there to here by meditation alone, I pray that you never are in a position where you are responsible for the welfare of other people who can't make their own health care decisions.

I still don't buy your rather patronising statements on meditation, or structure and function in the human body, especially on what I do and don't know about them, and whether or not meditation will assist in healing particular ailments (of which if you have objective scientific proof, feel free to share). I practice meditation and have at least a passing familiarity with most common versions of its practice.

I've had a fairly severe back injury, and managed to get it healed through a long and difficult process. You haven't, but still think you're the expert. It's easy to give all sorts of offhand advice with no consideration to the outcome if it has not affected and will not affect you personally.

[kj]

Just another inconclusive anecdote, FWIW.

I too have spondylolisthesis (probably congenital). My problems are compounded by SI joint dysfunction, pelvic alignment problems, and generalized ligament laxity (among other things <sigh>). The combination of "issues" led to a near debilitating onset of sciatica not long enough ago. Physical therapy and a modicum of chiropractic work, combined with pain treatment definitely helped in "quieting down" the symptoms, and bringing the combined problems under improved control.

I've noted longer term, continuing, and even more significant improvements through my own posture work. In my case, some of the most dramatic benefits have come through sitting posture work. This is a great thing considering that my job has me sitting on my behind at my desk or in meetings a great deal of the time. I'm talking very simple but intentional postural adjustments here. Though more "subtle" than the more medically oriented treatments, the posture practice has increasingly become an informed "habit", has offered sustained relief, and is apparently helping to address at least some of the contributing factors. Added benefits are that I can consciously or subconsciously "practice" and refine anytime and everywhere.

I'm amazed at what an impact such small improvements in posture have made, some in a surprisingly short amount of time. [E.g., avoiding crossing of the legs, sitting squarely and evenly, mindfulness when standing and walking, frequent application of pelvic tilt during routine activities, changes in sleeping posture, etc. The kinds of things our Moms, Doctors, and Yoga instructors perennially harped on us about.] Much of this is integral and informative to my Wing Chun practice as well, so I've enjoyed a double benefit. Conversely, it's equally amazing how many and surprisingly severe problems that our seemingly insignificant self-abuses can induce over time. More so as we age, eventually discovering that we are neither impervious nor immortal.

Just another case study and perspective. Everyone's mileage will vary.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[sticky fingers]

Wow, my back problem is small potatoes compared to what some of you have got. It's great to see that they have not stopped you from your passion of the martial arts. Inspirational.

I've always had a good back. I had minor scoliosis back in school from carrying my bag over the same shoulder, which was quickly self remedied by switching shoulders.

I think my problem is as yuanfen pointed out, tension in the back muscles. More mindful of that now.