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trevorstalker
03-01-2004, 09:45 AM
So, here how it goes:

I wake up around 0445 because I have swimming classes at 0600. Around 0515 I'm having breakfast, which I try to keep as simple as possible, because I don't want to reflux (i.e vomit) at the pool or anything. Usually it goes like this: some crackers with honey, a cup of Cat's Claw tea (which kicks so much a$$!), a glass of milk, and the old regular B12 supplements.

Problem is, just after swimming practice I hit the gym for another hour or so, to weight train (endurance), and only then I go to work (which is around 0900). Only then I'm eating something, and then the real meal comes only at lunch. By night I have Mantis Classes or San Shou Classes (depends on the day), which again, I'm running on fumes.

Today I felt really tired after pool, I mean really, I had to skip gym, come back home for refueling and only then go to work. This sucks big time, because it is the only opportunity I have to hit the gym. :mad:

So here it goes: if I put some protein/weight gainer or whatever on my early breakfast, surely I'll be able to sustain longer periods of work, but how fast can that be digested? The great factor in this equation is "not refluxing in the pool". Is it safe?

Oh, please no "why don't you check it out and then tell us Trev?" :(

IronFist
03-01-2004, 11:12 AM
I can't workout until I've had at least two meals. Heh. I don't know how you do it.

Oh wait, you asked a question!

Wait, first I have a question:

to weight train (endurance),

^ How are you weight training for endurance?


So here it goes: if I put some protein/weight gainer or whatever on my early breakfast, surely I'll be able to sustain longer periods of work, but how fast can that be digested? The great factor in this equation is "not refluxing in the pool". Is it safe?

The key, I think, is eating something that will fill you up (ie. not leave you hungry) but be easy to digest. Perhaps oatmeal? I never feel like I have any energy if I try to workout before I've eaten a substantial amount of food, so I don't know how you do it. Anyway, if you wake up at 0445 and don't eat until 0515, what do you do in that 30 minutes? Take a shower? Try eating first and then doing whatever you do... that will give you an additional 30 minutes of digestion time.

I don't even think I helped very much. Sorry.

trevorstalker
03-01-2004, 03:43 PM
Iron,

I'm not saying it's optimum either. I'd rather workout at late afternoon, or at night, but it's the only time span I have. Either waking up really early to workout or not working out at all... :)

Weigth Training for Endurance... well, I hope it's translated correctly, but I mean working out with mid-weights and really high reps, like bench pressing 3x16-20 reps instead of the old regular 3x8-10. So that you're not putting too much muscle, but you're not killing your stamina either. When I was in the hyperthropy program (which bugged me out!) I found it was killing my sparring sessions, somehow I was getting slow, less dynamic, I don't know... so my so-called gym instructor changed the program to this one.

Yeah, that oatmeal thing may work out, probably worth a shot.

Those first 30 min is the time span necessary to wake up, curse the whole building for being the first to wake up, and getting back into reality... :) But you presented the simplest solution: start eating earlier... :)

Peace!

Toby
03-01-2004, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by trevorstalker
Weigth Training for Endurance Bite your tongue, Iron ;).

trevorstalker, 3 ideas.

1) Eat a substantial carbs meal at 12-1am. Set your alarm if you have to. Gives you plenty of time to digest and you should burn off most (all) of the glycogen during your morning exercise. Small snacks between swimming/workout. If you've eaten at midnight, you will be able to sleep in a bit later to balance out the lack of sleep from waking for a late-night meal. This idea may not work due to lack of sleep.

2) Eat at 4:45am, but make it protein only. Protein will be digested more easily and shouldn't make you sick. Start your carbs at 9am. If you are going to eat any carbs at all before exercise, make them easily digestible, like a glass of fruit juice. You can also snack on protein between exercise, like jerky would be good, or an egg or two. Protein won't help you have much more energy, though, since you'll be *summarising* burning up carbohydrates during your exercise.

3) Don't eat before swimming. I drink only a glass of juice before morning weights. My workouts are strength based, so nowhere near the volume of yours, but I do fine. I just make sure I eat as soon after exercise as possible.

Ideal choice? 1). Best choice for you? 2)?

During the day, try to eat lots of healthy snacks to keep your energy up for evening MA. Trail mix is good.

IronFist
03-01-2004, 10:28 PM
Yeah dude, you might want to throw a scoop of protein into your oatmeal, altho it might make you **** in the pool :eek:

rubthebuddha
03-02-2004, 01:15 AM
it's called "propulsion."

trevorstalker
03-02-2004, 04:24 PM
Toby,

I think #2 is the best idea, it just sound simpler. :)

But forgive me my stupidity, but you said (and I quote) "Protein won't help you have much more energy, though, since you'll be *summarising* burning up carbohydrates during your exercise." So what's the point of taking a protein surplus before exercising if it's not gonna be used (or at least, not the majority of it)? My body would still starve throughtout the exercise, while on a caloric surplus, yes? That would only be effective once I hit the gym, right? Now I'm kinda lost.

Rubthebudda,

That's not the kind of propulsion I'm looking for, but anyway... :) I once trained on a team that had this really huge guy (bodybuilder huge) that ****ed the entire class (those nasty ones like a big mother-bubble that was so loaded it took a while to surface). That on a heated pool, every other morning was really nasty... :)

Oh, and by the way Iron, the oatmeal thing, I had some this morning, just before hitting the stat-bike and the gym (no pool today), it really got me going. I had just enough to keep me cool, so I could bare through the session. I think if you go a little overboard on the oatmeal, it might make you heavy and all.

thanx!

norther practitioner
03-02-2004, 04:59 PM
I think the whole protein when it is, is for rebuilding, and the carbs are sort of the energy source.

Toby
03-02-2004, 07:02 PM
What he said.

What happens is your muscles have glycogen stored up from eating carbs. When you exercise, glycogen is used up. If you use all the glycogen in your muscle, you'll go into a catabolic state where muscle protein starts to break down. Eating surplus protein should go some way towards reducing/eliminating muscle breakdown and then help fuel regrowth after exercise (although I'd eat more protein after exercise, not just before). Depending on how hard you exercise/how much you exercise in the mornings, you might not get through your muscle glycogen stores anyway. But excess protein can't really hurt so much if you take good protein. People like marathon runners/iron man/triathlon apparently go through their muscle glycogen and well into muscle protein breakdown during the course of an event.


Originally posted by trevorstalker
My body would still starve throughtout the exercise, while on a caloric surplus, yes?
Interesting comment. Apparently ketogenic diets mimic starvation with a lot of the body's processes even if you are on a caloric surplus.

About the gym/protein comment - you're right. Protein will be more effective before and after weights compared to swimming. Muscle glycogen will be the most important factor with swimming. To keep that up, try idea 1), or eat lots of low GI carbs before bed the night before.

One last idea - each morning after exercise (to stimulate muscle growth) I "eat" a breakfast that consists of a large banana, 200ml+ of egg white, 2 heaped tbsp of skim milk powder, 1-2 scoops of vanilla icecream, 500ml of lowfat milk. Digests pretty quickly and gives (lots of) good protein and carbs (apart from the icecream which is purely for taste and consistency). If that's too much, try 1/2 the recipe. My Bamix gets quite a workout, too :D.

All of my (limited) knowledge is based on book learnin', so YMMV. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will correct my mistakes.

fa_jing
03-02-2004, 07:48 PM
trevorstalker: I don't recommend this before swimming, but after your practice or when you get to work you should have a few ounces of salami - I like Hungarian Salami if you can find it. Not the sliced stuff, the kind that comes in a stick and is drier.

I've seen Cat's Claw in the pharmacy before, what's that do for you?

IronFist
03-02-2004, 10:00 PM
Protein isn't really used for energy I don't think. I don't know why I said to add some to your oatmeal. I mean, it couldn't hurt, but it's not going to give you energy.

fa_jing
03-03-2004, 05:19 PM
That reminds me, the salami I am recommending contains fat, which will give you energy. But it also causes acid reflux, so I recommend it after the swim for recovery fuel.

trevorstalker
03-03-2004, 05:34 PM
Toby,

Nice recipe, but for my kind of practice, I think it'd be a waste of good protein. :) Here what I did today, and apparently has worked (so far):

Breakfast at 0445, consisting of a cup of Cat's Claw tea (yeah that kicks a$$!), a cup of Lemon Grass tea (it kinda ease up digestion) and a combo of milk (whole) + 1 banana + 1 spoon of weight gainer + 1 spoon of protein powder (Albumin only). That combo makes three servings (I use almost 1L of milk) one that's promptly wolfed down. (By the way, the dosages of wg/protein is waaay lower than what is recomended - if I used what the producer suggests, I'd be delivering almost 600kcal only on wg/protein). Like 0545ish I take half of another serving, so I hit the pool energized. So far, I did great, like a bit heavy, but no sickness whatsoever (including on the sprinting laps). By the time I off the pool, I take the remaining of the second serving and hit the gym (0715). On my way to work I take the last one, and finally I have something to eat at 0900.

Iron,

I'll probably incorporate some protein meal after gym workout, but since I do endurance (and if I switch programs, I'll probably switch to power), I don't really think it's that necessary, I mean, muscle breakdown in these routines is kinda limited isn't it?

fa_jing,

Cat's Claw (or Uncaria Tomentosa) is tha $hit! ;) I started taking it because of some inflamattory problems and soreness after sparring. But I found it has some many benefits to overall health and performance that I made it a regular on my diet. I take 3-4 cups daily. I really enjoy drinking tea, aside from Uncaria I drink some other herbs too. Check this link for further info http://www.rain-tree.com/catclaw.htm

I'd suggest you to buy if it's not that expensive. Here in Brazil is way too cheap since it's a native plant.

Toby
03-03-2004, 07:28 PM
Based on your times, I think drinking your drink (which isn't so different from mine) at 05:45 would be a waste of time apart from the sugar rush from the banana. You won't have time to digest the stuff in 15min. Probably better to drink 1 1/2 doses at 04:45. Then maybe 1/2 a dose after. It's probably not that critical anyway. Just don't want the 1/2 dose sitting in your stomach as you hit the water. 15min isn't long. What's in the weight gainer? Lots of carbs and some protein I guess?

Oh, yeah, lots of milk probably doesn't make your stomach feel any better. I drink (almost) no fat milk because full fat makes me feel not so good anyway. The no fat milk is significantly easier for me to drink and these days (after years of low fat) I struggle with full fat milk. Funny that such a low amount of fat makes a difference. I'd probably minimise the milk before the workout. What about the lemon tea? Doesn't it increase stomach acid levels -> acid reflux? What about lemon tea + milk - even worse? Although 1hr 15min should be enough to get your stomach back to normal.

In your reply to Iron you said muscle break down is limited in endurance work. Not necessarily. If you go through all your muscle glycogen you'll start to break down muscle protein. With the amount of swimming you're doing, it's a possibility. The reason that you are more likely to go catabolic (muscle break down) with a strength workout is that the amount of glycogen used in heavy lifts is higher per rep than in lighter lifts. But if you're doing 3 reps to failure heavy vs 30 reps to failure light, you're probably using up the same amount of glycogen. Plus your swimming before gym uses up the glycogen. Ideally (with my bias), I'd be doing the gym work first and swimming after with the swimming geared more to recovery. This might be something you'll have to look into if you do change to a strength program. But that's me.

Thanks for the Cat's Claw tip. Looks like it's hard to get in Oz, but might be worth trying. I currently take fish oil for anti-inflammatory properties and Omega-3. Cat's Claw might be good too.

IronFist
03-03-2004, 10:02 PM
Endurance athletes need protein, too, just probably not as much as bodybuilders.