Be Responsible!!!

[David Jamieson]

From the Toronto Star Wed Mar 3 2004


Coroner probes teenager's martial arts death
Markham youth dies after friends practise karate on him

`How can my son get killed and no one is responsible?'


MELISSA LEONG
STAFF REPORTER

The coroner's office says it will investigate the death of an 18-year-old Markham student who died after roughhousing with his friends.

Wallace Lee was at a friend's house on Feb. 20 when he put on a padded vest, his mother Connie Lee said. Three of his friends took turns punching him and practising tae kwon do and karate moves on him; one of the youths was a black belt in karate.

Soon after, Lee, a Grade 12 Milliken Mills High School student, fainted and died at the hospital.

William Lucas, regional supervising coroner for Peel, York and Durham regions, said yesterday Lee died after a blood vessel near his heart leaked; blood accumulated inside the pericardial sac around the heart and stopped it from beating.

"Any kind of blunt-force trauma could cause that," he said.

York Region police investigated and consulted with a senior crown attorney, and determined no charges would be laid, Inspector Mark Tats said.

Lucas said it could take several weeks, even months before the coroner's office decides whether or not to call an inquest into Lee's death.

"We need to look into the organizations that control or set standards for those martial arts to see if they have any thoughts on how the death of this young boy could have been prevented....

"Is there something to do with the way martial arts is taught or the way the equipment was used or was this horseplay one of a kind?

"We've got to look at stuff like the padding.

"Was it adequate to provide the level of protection that was (needed)?"

Lee's family is angry and looking for answers.

"How can my son get killed and no one is responsible?" asked Connie Lee, a 53-year-old machine operator.

The police told her that Lee's friends are good students in school and didn't mean to harm him, she said.

But she's dissatisfied with the police investigation, and said the family is seeking legal advice.

Lee's friend picked him up Feb. 20 in the evening and they went to anotherfriend's house to play video games.

Lee didn't know martial arts, his mother said.

While he and some others practised martial arts, other boys played video games, she said.

She said after a while, as the other youths were practising their moves on him, Lee told his friends he didn't feel good and that he wanted to sit down. He passed out.

"On the way to the ambulance, he woke up, but then he passed away."

Two of the young men involved declined to comment to the Star.

Tony La Selva, director of the Northern Karate School in Richmond Hill, called Lee's death a warning to parents and young children.

"If people are doing this, you need to have a sensei (teacher) watching," he said.

"If they're going to be fighting with each other ... they need to go to the dojo (martial arts school)."

About 300 people attended Lee's funeral last weekend, many of them fellow students.

"He was popular because he was a helpful, kind, giving young man," said Laurel Dodham, a guidance counsellor at Milliken Mills High School.

"He was an extraordinarily hard worker and he tutored other kids."

Students collected money for flowers around the school and wrote messages on cards and two bulletin boards. Teachers put together a slideshow about Lee for his funeral, said vice-principal David McAdam.

"He was really athletic, gentle. He wouldn't complain or argue with you," Lee's 19-year-old brother Eric remembered.

Connie Lee said her son wanted to go into civil engineering.

Lee said she shared a room with Wallace, who had three brothers. "Now I can't sleep. Me and my husband sleep for an hour and wake up crying," she said.

"It's not fair.... Our son was so good."


link to this story -
Toronto Star Newspaper story (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1078269013425&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154)

[Liokault]

Sounds to me like theres no fault but genetics.

Its sad that the family feel a need to find someone to blame before they can move on with their lives.

[David Jamieson]

really? genetics?

i am of the opinion that the martial arts students in the group should have known better and probably were blasting the guy because he had some padding on.

Don't know about you and you're training, but this kind of stuff without the supervision of an experienced practitioner or teacher is forbidden in most schools for this very reason.

While we as human beings are resilient by nature, we are far from indestructible. This example serves as empirical evidence of what NOT to do.

And it raises the point of standards in both equipment and training. It also raises the question regarding the irresponsibility of some who think that it's ok to full on release force on somebody for amusement.

If it happened to you or yours would you be saying such a thing i wonder?

[MasterKiller]

So who would you blame, Kung Lek? You gonna send these kids to jail for manslaughter? Or maybe sue their instructor for teaching them these moves in the first place?

Responsibility is a two-way street. He allowed trained people to hit him, so he willingly took a risk and participated in his own death.

Responsibility is one thing. Accountability is another.

[SaMantis]

Something I found in the net this morning:


Parents can only give good advice or put them on the right paths, but the final forming of a person's character lies in their own hands. - Anne Frank

He was 18. Old enough to make his own decisions. No amount of padding is going to replace common sense.

[David Jamieson]

mk-

it's not about blame, it's about the subject line.

it's about standards and about responsibility for ones actions.
both the students who struck the blows and the person who recieved them are responsible for their folly.

This is as I have stated What NOT to do.

Be responsible with what you have been taught. If you are a teacher, consider this example when you train people and put more effort into explaining to your students WHY they shouldn't be doing these things without proper supervision and without proper regard.

What is done is done and this serves as an example of what we as martial artists should be doing as we move forward in both learning and instruction.

[red5angel]

my guess is this would probably be related to some inherent genetic weakness in this person. People get hit all the time in the martial arts and although it happens sometimes, it's still few and far between.

[PHILBERT]

It was an accident, plain and simple. The kid put on the pads, and let them beat him, but he was a legal adult and able to make his own decisions now by law. He could have told them to stop, but he did not know he could die so easily. People get punched in the chest all the time and don't drop dead. Look at boxing or NHB, they get punched and have almost no padding (and in some cases NO padding at all) yet they do not die from heart failure. His body couldn't handle it, but he made the decision to get punched and that cost him his life.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
really? genetics?

i am of the opinion that the martial arts students in the group should have known better and probably were blasting the guy because he had some padding on.

Don't know about you and you're training, but this kind of stuff without the supervision of an experienced practitioner or teacher is forbidden in most schools for this very reason.

While we as human beings are resilient by nature, we are far from indestructible. This example serves as empirical evidence of what NOT to do.

And it raises the point of standards in both equipment and training. It also raises the question regarding the irresponsibility of some who think that it's ok to full on release force on somebody for amusement.

If it happened to you or yours would you be saying such a thing i wonder?


It looks from what was posted that martial arts had no direct responsiability for this death other than being the shock that exposed a weakness.

This guy could have died falling off his mountain bike or being tackled in football just the same.

If you are suggesting that we all train as if every one we pair with has a congenital heart defect then you are very wrong.

It states that when he didn't feel good he asked them to stop and they stopped. No one was beating him up, no one was miss using martial arts.

As for:

Don't know about you and you're training

Well I would have died in both my private life and in my training life many times over if I was as fragile as you suggest people are.

As for:


If it happened to you or yours would you be saying such a thing i wonder?

I have lost both friends and family in ways that could concivably been forseen/prevented with out finding a need to pin blame on anyone, just understanding that life is full of unknows.

[Liokault]

Be responsiable.

Your subject line, kung lek.

Is it responsiable to let your students belive that with just one miss thrown punch their parttner (and by extention attacker) could be killed?

The reverse is also true. Do you lead your students to fear a punch to the body so much that they can not cope with the idea of one?

To myself the above two examples are much more irresponsiable then letting "kids" find their own boundries.

[Ray Pina]

""How can my son get killed and no one is responsible?" "

This is what I have a problem with. If a little league pitcher gets hit in the chest with a line drive and killed do they blame the baseball maker? The bat maker? The kid who hit the ball? Or the dead kid who threw the ball?

Accidents happen, people are dieing right now and NO ONE is responsible. We live in a chaotic world. Some have a hard time accepting that.

At the same time I don't like to say genetics, makes the poor kid look weak or lesser of a person. It was probbaly bad timing of the heart plus a good kick in the right place.

Sad for the family and friens but no different then being hit with a baseball. You play baseball you may get hit with a ball. You play martial arts you may get kicked. Thousands of people get hit with kicks and balls and walk away ... a few don't.

I sparred for years in Karate as a kid in the late 70s and 80s and we never wore gear. A few kids would wear shin pads at tournaments and they looked like freaks. Bloody noses, a few loose or lost teath, no one died.

[David Jamieson]

like i said-

It's not about blame guys.

It's not about the fact the guy getting hit had no martial background and the guys who were hitting him did.

It's about responsible actions both being taught and being used.

Those who were striking him had martial teachings. They likely knew that they shouldn't be doing this sort of thing.

The guy getting hit was being a dummy for them and yes it was his choice.

Don't misconstrue what I am saying. See it for what it is. This happens and it shouldn't have happened. Particularly the "black belt" of the group should've known better.

In my opinion, his training was faulty if he thought that this session was "ok".

But again, what's done is done. If you are a student, be aware that correct training is not done at a video game party with the bravado and zeal of a limited experience.

This thinking is in error. It can be laid out in such a way in any class for martial artists that this is clearly understood. This example shows that none of these kids knew what they were doing and the one kid died because of that fundamental lack of knowledge and education concerning this type of practice.

Clearly, the guy who died, who had no martial training was trusting his friends to be responsible. Clearly they were not.

A mere single tap is unlikely to kill, sustained heavy blows can kill anyone and this has to be respected. IN this example, that fact was NOT respected and ergo I see a fault in their training and in their actions.

Moving forward, this needs to be recognized. Hammering away at each other is idiocy and nothing is learned from it other than "ouch, that hurts", "well then don't do that".

So, be careful and be responsible with the knowledge you have and the training path you are on. Never work with someone who does not have any exeprience whatsoever in this manner. It's simple.

cheers

[red5angel]

I'm not sure I see anything irresponsible going on here. his freinds new martial arts, they were fooling around at home - who hasn't, and they hit him in a weak spot. It happens, sucks but that's life.

[red5angel]

actually it just sounds like the weakness that is growing in our societies today. We don't want to take responsibility anymore, we want to blame something or someone on the accidents that sometimes just happen.

[kwaichang kaned]

Quote
" Any kind of blunt force trauma could have caused that"

I take this to mean he could have walked into a lamppost and still have hurt himself.
It was an accident .Sad but still an accident.As the coroner said Any blow could have caused this .Unfortunatley it was a hit from one of his friends and who can say ,hand on heart that they have NEVER arsed around with their friends and done something similar.
You never intend to cause them harm and i bet that his friends felt exactly the same way.

I can't even begin to imagine what the parents are feeling right now but would pinning the blame on someone will help make them feel better? but where does the responsibilty stop?

With the kids that where there? Would sending an 18 yr old to jail make them feel better?
What about his sensi? or even the grandmasters of the system for teaching him?
Or what about the parents for allowing their son to hang around with these kids in the first place?
I know im becoming cynical and jaded because rightly or wrongly when i read
" someone must be to blame" i automatically thought
"someone must be liable to be sued"
Butthats just a sad indication of the way i think nowadays
:(

[BentMonk]

I understand that Kung Lek is calling for ALL martial artists to use more common sense when practicing techniques. He isn't blaming anyone per say. The mother of the boy who died is blaming people. While yes given her level of grief that's to be expected and understood, some greasy lawyer somewhere will use her grief to make himself and her some cash, and cause harm to the other boys and their MA school. As many have already stated, accidents will always happen. Common sense may have been in short supply, but that's no reason to needlessly add more grief to an already sad situation by looking to blame and penalize people. Mourn the loss, learn the lesson, and move on. BTW Yes, this is what I would say even if it happened in my family. Death comes to us all, and the timing is rarely convenient.

[GeneChing]

I blame the teacher. Martial arts is a weapon. A teacher handed his students this weapon, but didn't give them enough precautions. Let's say I taught you proper gun handling etiquette. Then you went out and shot someone by accident. If I had taught you proper gun etiquette, that would never have happened. Unfortunately, this is not a legal obligation, so the teacher is absolved - there's always the scenario of the bad student. I'm speaking more moral/ethical grounds. If I were that teacher, it'd be time to take down the sign and close up shop.

Martial arts must come with morality. In fact, this is my issue with many of the so-called street defense schools - it's purely reactionary. There's terror on the streets so I'm going to react with terror. But what if there's no terror on the streets? What if there's no WMD? Is a terrible response still justifiable? You can't blame the youth. You can't fool the youth.

I think Kung's posting of this is really important for anyone who teaches. You got to focus on what your teaching, not just the technical, but the moral. If we could just teach everyone to have a good heart, martial arts would be completely unneccesary and we could just focus on qigong.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

it was a freak accident and nothing more.

who's to say the kid didn't put on the vest and ask to be kicked to see if he could take it? considering that there were other people playing video games while the "martial artists" were training it even seems likely.

[Ray Pina]

Who hear hasn't "done" something to an "innocent" bystander/friend who wanted to see some of that karate/kung fu stuff?

Granted I never use real power, these are kids and it was a simple side kick. Looking back now is easy.

I don't blame the teacher. Who could forsee something innocent like this. If the kid picked a fight with the school bully maybe.

[Just a Guy]

Originally posted by GeneChing
I blame the teacher. Martial arts is a weapon. A teacher handed his students this weapon, but didn't give them enough precautions.

Martial arts must come with morality.

I think Kung's posting of this is really important for anyone who teaches.

Bingo. In older times, in certain places in China, a master WAS held responsible for misuse of the arts by students. And there are cases of masters "destroying" wayward students' skills for this very reason.

In my kwoon, there is a rule. Sparring of ANY kind must be supervised by an instructor. If one of my students were to "goof off" as these kids did by trading blows outside of the kwoon, they would be immediately expelled. No appeals.

Martial arts is not a game. What is really sad is the fact that those other kids have to live the rest of their lives coping with this "accident".

EvolutionFist says "Who hasn't goofed off like this?" When people do stuff like this, it is generally to gratify their egos. From a Buddhist perspective, this kind of garbage doesn't count as "innocent." It's a complete failure of Right Action and Right Resolve. Not every martial artist is a devout Buddhist, but it doesn't alter the fact that this kind of activity is all about ego-feeding.

Even if the deceased had begged on his hands and knees for someone to hit him - that doesn't make the situation better.

[David Jamieson]

Evolution Fist-

I have Never and I mean never messed around with any of the skills I have been taught. So, I can say I haven't goofed around like this.

One time and the only time i even came close to this sort of thing was in the kwoon and with fellow black sashes and we were light sparring with each other.

We did not overstep any boundaries and were very careful about how we went about things.

And we were still told that this was a no no by our sifu at the time and that we should only be doing this under strict supervision.

Martial arts should be respected as has been stated, they are not toys, they are a weapon.

Anyone who does this type of messing around is a bit thin in the brain tissue if you ask me and there are too many examples of irresponsible teachers and students out there.

This article is a real wake up call for any and all out there who feed their egos with this sort of horseplay.

respect what you have been taught or the next death could be your own. Is that serious enough?

And to say accident this and boxers that is in my opinion coming from the mouths and keyboards of people who have poor skills or no experience. There are no accidents in a case like this.

Take the article for what it is, a further warning to respect what you have been taught or are being taught.

regards

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Just a Guy
EvolutionFist says "Who hasn't goofed off like this?" When people do stuff like this, it is generally to gratify their egos. From a Buddhist perspective, this kind of garbage doesn't count as "innocent." It's a complete failure of Right Action and Right Resolve. Not every martial artist is a devout Buddhist, but it doesn't alter the fact that this kind of activity is all about ego-feeding.

Even if the deceased had begged on his hands and knees for someone to hit him - that doesn't make the situation better. Bull****. The kid participated knowingly and willingly. If anyone failed to show Right Views or Right Action, it was the kid who put on the pad and let people hit him. Every person is responsible for themself....this kid is no different.

[David Jamieson]

The kid participated knowingly and willingly

maybe willingly, but certainly not knowingly.

[mantis108]

I would agreed with Kung Lek. This is not about assigning blames. It is a tragic accident. The family needs to do something in order to begin the healing process. I feel sorry for the young adult and the family. I feel more sorry for the "blackbelt". This is clearly a case well his "training" or the lack thereof parrished the young adult. If the blackbelt, the most qualified amongst those presented, or others couldn't comprehend the situation and work towards making amends his friend would have died in vain.

Karate (assuming it is true that the blackbelt is from karate <McDojo> perhaps?. ) is becoming a SPORT. There was TKD present too in this case? Anyway, peopel are starting to down play the moral codes and disciplines involved when it comes to martial sports. This incident is a somber reminder of the failure in reinforcing the codes and disciplines within that camp. There is a reason why traditional schools educate the students about morality and behavior. It is about educating the kids about the risks involved. Kicking someone silly as a "passtime" (sport) should not be encouraged regardless of excuses. Enforce moral code and disciplines should always be a part of a complete martial art.

Thank you Kung Lek for bringing that into the light.

Mantis108

[IronFist]

None of us were there so we don't know what happened. Like GDA said, the kid could have put on the pads and asked to be hit. Or, one of the MA'ists could have said, "hey, put these pads on. I want to try a move on you." We don't know, so we can't really place blame.

[backbreaker]

If cro cop hasn't killed someone with kicks it can't be done. That's what I heard on bullshido

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Kung Lek


maybe willingly, but certainly not knowingly. He knew his friends had training, and he knew they were going to hit him when he put the pad on. He was also old enough to rationally consider the possibilty of injury.

[dwid]

From the description of the injury in the article itself, this could have happened anywhere, inside or outside the kwoon or whatever.

How would supervision have helped if "any sort of blunt force trauma could have caused this injury"?

It was a freak accident, the conditions for which were set up by some errors in judgment. Trying to draw some grand lesson from this seems silly.

[Liokault]

I think all the "skills are for use in the kwoon" statements being made around here are very similar to statements such as "my art is to deadly for the ring" or "you must train for 10 years before you start to learn".

They are kids, they messed about.

Now if that BB had said "I know a really cool sleeper hold that will put you out in under ten seconds.....but its ok I can bring you round again" then things might have been differant.

[dwid]

It's not like they were transmitting qi blasts through the guy's chest cavity or something. That would be irresponsible.

[backbreaker]

I guess it could be different if the guy was saying "come,on" , "I can take it" "you suck", and they took turns running full on trying to kick full power or if it got out of control and became a gang beat down and the guy couldn't get away, I don't know I wasn't there but ego or maybe one kid really secretly hates his friend could all be involved

[norther practitioner]

Geez, go figure, none of us were there, so who knows how it went down.

[Just a Guy]

Forget about blame, responsibility, not being there to see "how it went down," etc.

Fact: these kids were using martial arts outside the kwoon for a purpose that had nothing to do with self defense.

People are going to have very different feelings about that fact, ranging from ambivalence to support to condemnation. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[backbreaker]

The first thing I ever learned in grappling was never use it outside the gym, yeah, there's no safety measures in place and the and having a black belt doesn't necessarily mean you learned how to be safe or what do when you hurt the guy badly

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

if i had only trained inside the kwoon i would have forever sucked.

[David Jamieson]

gda, they weren't "training" they were messing with what they shouldn't have been messing with and now one boy is "forever" dead.

regards

[SanSoo Student]

The kid did not know Martial Arts and did this, if he only thought twice about it first. Getting punched by my heavy weight friend (250+ pounds) friend is enough to send me flying. I would imagine getting fully bashed by 3 people would be more than taking body blows from a heavy weight.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

group a: this is a perfect example of why you shouldn't **** around with what you have been taught. you shouldn't play with guns and you shouldn't be kicking people full force in the chest for no good reason or **** like this will eventually happen.

group b: it was a freak accident ... they could have kicked a thousand kids in the chest the exact same way and everyone would have been fine except for him.

i'm completely over in b territory, but i wonder if there's a middle ground. i wish yoda were here.

[Ray Pina]

"if i had only trained inside the kwoon i would have forever sucked." -- GDA

I think this also includes "fooling around". Again, who hasn't at a certain stage? And weren't you still looking for something, learning?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by GeneChing
I blame the teacher. Martial arts is a weapon. A teacher handed his students this weapon, but didn't give them enough precautions. Let's say I taught you proper gun handling etiquette. Then you went out and shot someone by accident. If I had taught you proper gun etiquette, that would never have happened. Unfortunately, this is not a legal obligation, so the teacher is absolved - there's always the scenario of the bad student. I'm speaking more moral/ethical grounds. If I were that teacher, it'd be time to take down the sign and close up shop.



We don't know if they were taught proper etiquette or not. Just because they did this doesn't mean the teacher taught them improperly. Sometimes people don't listen to caution and intruction.

If I was the teacher, I wouldn't necessarily stop teaching unless I knew I didn't do everything I could to teach them proper respect and responsability with what I was teaching.

But, we should think of this as a somber reminder that we need to instruct students properly and caution them accordingly. That's all we can do.

[Tak]

Lee said she shared a room with Wallace, who had three brothers. An 18-year-old kid was sharing a room with his mom. It was only a matter of time before somebody beat him up.

[David Jamieson]

tak-

a boy is dead.

[Shaolinlueb]

could have been prevented. but the kid had no experience at all. maybe if he took amrtial arts he would have found out about the problem he had. but maybe not. even when people ask me to train with them its never "kick me has hard as you can" thats what they make punching bags for and kicking shields for. not to kick someone in the chest. if anything the kids who were kicking hikm should be charged with man slaughter. it wasnt intentional but theys till did it.

[Tak]

Yeah, it was a horrible accident and a tragedy and all of that, but I think you guys are taking this way too seriously. This is just something that dumb-ass kids do, including myself when I was younger.

Maybe the kid with MA training should have known better, but they probably should have all known better, including the kid who died.

The way I see it, it's the same thing as if they all decided to go poke a beehive with a stick, and one of the four of them had an as yet undiscovered allergy to beestings and died. Oops. Whose fault is it? Do you blame the other three kids? The one who died? The bees? The stick?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

if anything the kids who were kicking hikm should be charged with man slaughter. it wasnt intentional but theys till did it.

bull****.

[David Jamieson]

Again-

It's not about blame and it's not about the stupidity of youth which is plentiful.

It's about awareness and education and where do we go from here.

This is an example of what not to do.

How can we as martial artists both students and instructors do to ensure this doesn't repeat itself?

As well, this same question can be posed to the manufacturers of martial arts equipment. Is there anything at all that can be done or is what is available adequate for the protection of people who partake in either serious training or horseplay as in this case?

To minimize the death of someone is frankly not the answer.

To seriously take a look at this incident is what is required here.

Not to lay blame on the instructors or the people involved, but to really think about this situation. To really think about what you are learning and to really think about who you are teaching it too is my point inposting this.

Awareness brings knowledge and knowledge brings education and education brings understanding.

Ignorance and indifference is the last thing we should regard this incident with as martial artists.

-o\_

[Nick Forrer]

Hi all

I dont know much about the American or Canadian legal system but i can try and give you a short precis of the position of English law on this matter.

Basically following cases like 'R v Blaue' (where a stab victim refused blood transfution because of their religeous beliefs and subsequently died as a result) there is this thing called the 'thin skull rule' which means you can't rely on any inherent weakness or special characteristic of your victim to avoid liability for their injuries as long as your actions were a 'cause in fact' of those injuries meaning those injuries wouldn't have happened 'but for' your actions.

Secondly you cant consent to Grevious bodily harm or death. This is why Euthanasia and Sadomasochism are technically illegal in Britain following the decision in 'R v Brown'. There are however certain situations such as surgery where obviously you can consent to harm but even then the surgeon is under a strict duty of care to minimise the chances of injury to you whereever possible.

Regards
Nick

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

such may be true, but there are also some judges with a least trace amounts of common sense.

they may be few and far in between, but they're out there.