Fu Jow Pai and Hung Ga

[Octavius]

I was wondering if anyone had any experience with Fu Jow Pai (via the Wai Hong lineage of NYC)? What is it like? By that I mean that I am aware it being a southern style focusing on the tiger aspects, so is it similar in flavor and techniques and methodologies to Hung Ga's tiger aspects? What are its characteristics? And does it have any relations to the Black Tiger style? Thanks.

[jmd161]

Is there another lineage of Fu Jow Pai other than Grandmaster Wai Hong's???


If there is i've never heard of it.


Fu Jow Pai is indeed a Southern China style that is very similiar in apperence to Hung Gar. I really can't tell you much more than that because i'm not at liberty to say much about Fu Jow Pai.

I'm sure somewhere down the line there are things that tie Fu Jow Pai and Hak Fu Muhn (Black Tiger) together ,but you would have to go back alot further than Grandmaster Wai Hong ,and Grandmaster Wong Cheung to find those ties.

Both like Hung Gar come from the same Shaolin Tiger Claw roots ,although many debate the background of Fu Jow Pai. There was a time when Fu Jow Pai was know as Hark Fu Moon another way of saying Black Tiger ,but it also had another name before that. Many ppl are only aware of the Hark Fu Moon and Fu Jow Pai titles.

You also have Shantung Black Tiger a Northern China Black Tiger style. There might be some connection there also ,but none that i am aware of.



jeff:)

[Just a Guy]

The footwork of Shantung Black Tiger puts it closer to Southern White Crane than to Fu Jow Pai. The stances are also higher, etc.

Fu Jow is indeed an offshoot of the original Shaolin Southern Tiger style, and the training is similar to Hung Gar in some respects. It's quite brutal, but in a good way ;)

People who studied with Wai Hong back in the day couldn't walk very well the day after training. If they could, it was evidence that they had been absent ;)

You run into the whole Southern Black Tiger connection when you go back to Wong Bil Hong's sifu and sigungs. Wong's branch evolved into Fu Jow Pai vie Hong Kong, and then NYC. Earlier mainland branches evolved in different directions - but they both share a lot of fundamentals, much as Yip Man WC and some other very different branches of WC share many fundamentals.

Any chance that Black Tiger website will have an English version any time soon???

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Just a Guy
Any chance that Black Tiger website will have an English version any time soon???


Well it's in the works but we have been very busy working on the International Hak Fu Moon Assocation. So the developing of that and everything involved has slowed the process of the english version of the home site.

We hope to have an english link up asap.





jeff:)

[DeathTouch]

There is an article on Fu Jow Pai in the new inside Kung Fu Magazine which came out this week i believe.

To my understanding over the years and once again after reading this article it seems that Fu Jow Pai is Hark Fu Moon and there is no distinction...

It says that the system's name was changed from Hark Fu Moon to Fu Jow Pai in 1934 because of the tenacious clawing ability demonstrated in the system as well as in honor of one the systems Late Grandmaster of the time

[jmd161]

Originally posted by DeathTouch
There is an article on Fu Jow Pai in the new inside Kung Fu Magazine which came out this week i believe.

To my understanding over the years and once again after reading this article it seems that Fu Jow Pai is Hark Fu Moon and there is no distinction...

It says that the system's name was changed from Hark Fu Moon to Fu Jow Pai in 1934 because of the tenacious clawing ability demonstrated in the system as well as in honor of one the systems Late Grandmaster of the time


DeathTouch,


I know that Fu Jow Pai's name was changed to Fu Jow Pai from Hark Fu Moon by Wong Bill Hung. I actually heard that it was Wong Moon Toy that actually changed the name ,but that is not important. The thing i'm saying is that it also had another name before Hark Fu Moon. It is not my place to say that name on a public forum ,because i do not know why they choose no to speak of it's title before Hark Fu Moon.

But at the same time that the name was being changed. There was an Su Hak Fu Black Tiger school in Canton , as well as Grandmaster Wong Cheung's school in Hong Kong. It is known that Su (Soo) Hak Fu created Black Tiger style from the same Shaolin Tiger Claw style that Hung Gar came from. Fu Jow Pai has no mention of Su Hak Fu anywhere in their lineage. It only mentions a monk as being the creator.

Su Hak Fu was not a Shaolin Monk and it is known that he learned his Tiger Claw from a Lay Monk. Now i'm not saying that Fu Jow Pai is not real Hak Fu Moon, i'm sure the styles have crossed at some point. But Fu Jow pai is not the same as the Hak Fu Moon that Su Hak Fu taught. Neither is Shantung Black Tiger.

Black Tiger is very close to Hung Gar ,but at the sametime is very different. I have some old pictures that are being loaded onto my website that has many Hung Gar and Black Tiger masters together. In these pics you will see Grandmasters like Chiu Kao & Sui Ying along With Grandmaster Wong Cheung at the Hong Kong Black Tiger school.

I'll post the link as soon as it's loaded to the site.



jeff:)

[Falcor]

Thanks jmd. When you say that Black Tiger (which I am understanding to mean not the Fu Jow Pai of NYC Wai Hong but your lineage out of Hong Kong) is close to the tiger claw element sof Hung Ga, yet not the same, how is this so? Were the core principles themselves altered was is it the interpretations/tactics/techniques that's different?

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Falcor
Thanks jmd. When you say that Black Tiger (which I am understanding to mean not the Fu Jow Pai of NYC Wai Hong but your lineage out of Hong Kong) is close to the tiger claw element sof Hung Ga, yet not the same, how is this so? Were the core principles themselves altered was is it the interpretations/tactics/techniques that's different?


Falcor ,


Yes!:D


Ha Ha just messing with you.


Actually just about all of those things are different in Black Tiger. The bridgeing in Black Tiger is different from that of Hung Gar. We have many of the same techniques and tactics just done with a different flavor.

So when looking at Black Tiger you will see alot we share with Hung Gar ,but you will also see the different flavor ,and applications of techniques.

The core principles in Hung Gar and Black Tiger are totally different. Although they come from the same source and share many of the same techniques. They are two totally different styles with different goals. Black Tiger relies alot more on speed than does Hung Gar. The idea of Black Tiger is to beat the attacker to the attack.

With that in mind in most cases we will smoother an attack with an attack of our own. Black Tiger also does a lot of body conditioning drills to help establish this concept. Black Tiger has a focus on a barrage of attacks. Where as Hung Gar will use few attacks with overwhelming power.




jeff:)

[DeathTouch]

jmd, you speak as if you are an expert, please tell me How many years have you done this style? What is your Rank?

I also know you are somewhere in Florida I will be in Miami Sometime around Memorial Day is it possible I can meet with so you can show me in person how effective your kung fu really is, You sound highly skilled behind your keyboard i would love to see what you can do in person please send me Private Message with your contact information.

I have questioned you many times before about your art's authenticity and I really would love to stop questioning you. So I truly hope we can meet one day. Once Again I am a Kung Fu enthusiast and all i want is for you to show me in person how effective your kung fu really is Please let me know if we can accomodate this.

[jmd161]

DeathTouch,


I am by no means an expert on Black Tiger ,i've only been involved in this style about 4 yrs now. But in that time i've trained one on one with my sifu privately. I have however been involved in martial arts about 22 yrs.

The reason i know so much about Fu Jow Pai is because Grandmaster Wai Hong and my sifu are very good friends. I've told you before if you doubt anything i say about Fu Jow Pai? You are more than welcome to ask Wai Hong personally.

I have no problem meeting you or showing you my kung fu. To me , this sounds like a challange. Is that what you're trying to imply?!?! Now if you want to see my kung fu i have no problem with showing you my kung fu and sharing information with you.

But if you are offering me a challange?

Be advised i have no problems with that either and will act accordingly!


Although i fail to see how a challange will prove the authenticity of my Black Tiger to you?!?!

You seem to have some knowledge about martial arts ,but like most others your knowledge of Black Tiger and Fu Jow Pai seems to come only from what you've read and heard. I gave you questions before that you never answered when you disrespected my sifu,style, and myself. I have many old documents and pictures that show my black tiger is authentic, And if you knew anything really about Hung Gar and Black Tiger there would be no doubt about my Sigung Grandmaster Wong Cheung.

The only people that ever question our black tiger are, Fu Jow Pai noobies that think they know it all because they are now learning a little about the history of Fu Jow Pai ,and think they know it all. Or Cyber Ninja's (keyboard warriors) that read too many magazine articles and martial art websites. In most cases after i refer the noobs to Wai Hong i never hear or have anymore problems from them.


If you are serious?

Just IM me and we can set up a meeting between you and i. Like i said either that you want to do is ok with me. But if it's a challange?!?! Then that's the mindset i will be in ,and there will be no talking and sharing of information. If you are challanging me i'm coming to fight and fight only!!





Jeff:)

[WinterPalm]

Weren't challenges usually supposed to have some purpose to it? Or perhaps the person dishonored your school or Sifu?
It seems silly to be challenging someone, over the internet of all things, because you don't like the history of their style.
I am reminded by clan groups from Chechnya that can have families holding grudges well into hold age and then the respective memebers of opposing clans don't know why they hate each other but know they must enact their revenge. This is true of some but many have forgotten it or accepted each other. Anger and violence don't have a place in martial arts as does the ignorance of lifelong vendetta's.
Here it's the validity of Black Tiger from one practioner to another, I assume you practice it as well, Death Touch. So do I. Good kung fu is good kung fu whether you spell it Wing Chun or Ving Tsun, it's the same pronuciation and equally good.

Unless of course you are practicing my style of Black Tiger which is the only true version.:D :D

[jmd161]

Originally posted by WinterPalm
Unless of course you are practicing my style of Black Tiger which is the only true version.:D :D





;)





jeff:)

[DeathTouch]

Although your reply sounds very pretty and thought out. The fact of the matter is I have not recieved your contact information in my private message box. So Please send me info on how i can contact you so i can let you know when im in town. I expect it in my message box by Monday March 8th if not i take it as a cop out.

winterpalm,
I never said i did black tiger im just ecstatic about learning of jmd's great kung fu skill cuz he sounds very profound on this forum.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by DeathTouch
Although your reply sounds very pretty and thought out. The fact of the matter is I have not recieved your contact information in my private message box. So Please send me info on how i can contact you so i can let you know when im in town. I expect it in my message box by Monday March 8th if not i take it as a cop out.

winterpalm,
I never said i did black tiger im just ecstatic about learning of jmd's great kung fu skill cuz he sounds very profound on this forum.

:confused:

I thought i addressed you very well in my post. Apparently you did not read or understand my reply fully.!! Let me give a quote from my earlier post that you seemed to have missed some how.



Originally posted by jmd161

If you are serious?

Just IM me and we can set up a meeting between you and i.


You do know how to use IM right?




jeff:)

[jmd161]

DeathTouch,


I sent you the pm so it's on you now!!:cool:






Jeff:)

[DeathTouch]

i sent your response to your private message box.

[Fu-Pau]

I never said i did black tiger im just ecstatic about learning of jmd's great kung fu skill cuz he sounds very profound on this forum.

DeathTouch,

It seems to trouble you that someone sounds more profound than you over the internet? why is that?

[DeathTouch]

yes fu pau, i am very disturbed because some one sounds better on the net that is why i want his info so he can teach me a lesson. i am sorry if i offended you fu pau please oh please forgive me.

[Fu-Pau]

Oh that's ok, no need to apologise. I'm sure you can't help it.

[WinterPalm]

I don't think that picking fights over the internet shows good character, such as is necessary to achieve any sort of competence in martial arts. I practice Black Tiger and have no claims to be better or truer than anyone else. I have faith in my Sifu and faith in the system. If somebody offends me, I don't have to get angry and decide to teach them a lesson. Anyone can sound wise and learned on the internet, as can someone sound honest and inquiring into a challenge match. If beating in heads, or ranting about lineage is your forte, then stick to it, but I'd like to see fellow students of kung fu dedicating more time to the actual art, not making fools of themselves in front of the whole world.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by WinterPalm
I don't think that picking fights over the internet shows good character, such as is necessary to achieve any sort of competence in martial arts. I practice Black Tiger and have no claims to be better or truer than anyone else. I have faith in my Sifu and faith in the system. If somebody offends me, I don't have to get angry and decide to teach them a lesson. Anyone can sound wise and learned on the internet, as can someone sound honest and inquiring into a challenge match. If beating in heads, or ranting about lineage is your forte, then stick to it, but I'd like to see fellow students of kung fu dedicating more time to the actual art, not making fools of themselves in front of the whole world.


Well what can you really do?


It does'nt matter what you say someone gets offended. It's the human way. I've said many times that there are different schools of black tiger ,but ppl don't pay attention to that. People only see what i say about my lineage,and take that as i'm saying they are fake.

That is not what i've been saying. I've only spoken mainly about our lineage because that's what i know. Our lineage traces back to Su Hak Fu ,that does'nt mean that no one else lineage can'nt also trace back to Su .

People read what they want into my words. If someone does'nt understand what i'm saying then they should ask me. But most ppl want to assume and then come forward in an aggressive manner. I have no problem discussing my style ,but if attacked i'm going to fire back. I have nothing to prove to anyone ,and i try to just add what i know to discussions.


jeff:)

[DeathTouch]

Hey Winterpalm,
I have spoken to jmd and told him what my problem is what is spoken between jmd and I , is just that between him and I. So please do not try to speak as if u are someone to lecture becuz ur no more than a rabbit chasing his tail. so please WP take your own advice and go workout instead of butting ur nose in what does not concern you

[WinterPalm]

I am not a rabbit. :D

[jon]

Deathtouch

Get a grip dude, your challenging people over the internet for expressing there personal opinions, your being a commen bully.

I also find your methodology compleately out of whack.

*You* want the challenge? I dont recall Jeff challenging you right?

*You* pick the time, place and then make the offer... He is then able to respond.

As it stands your asking him to post his personal details over an insecure medium to a person he has never met but is expressing a desire to do him physical harm. You then have the nerve to call him a coward for not doing it.

How about you post exactly who you are and where your at right here and then any of us who feel the inclination can just drop by and challenge you as we see fit?

[jon]

WinterPalm

Lies!
You are too a rabit, dont deny your destiny.:D :p :rolleyes:

[kungfuyou]

DOH....OWNED!! :D

[illusionfist]

Hak Fu Mun is fake anyway...:p ;) :D

[DeathTouch]

Hey Jon , Look there's a Roo go fetch

[jmd161]

Originally posted by illusionfist
Hak Fu Mun is fake anyway...:p ;) :D


Beeeyatch please!!!:rolleyes:




Wong Fei Hung did'nt learn any real "Southern Fist" until he learned Hak Fu Muhn. If it was'nt for Hak Fu Muhn ,Hung Gar would've been known as an ancient form of Tae Bo;) :D


Disclaimer: To those Hung Gar stylist reading this post. This is a "joke" aimed at illusionfist. Do not take this as a "True" statement.


Wong Fei Hung did learn black tiger but that's a whole different story and thread.:D



jeff:)

[illusionfist]

:p

Hung Kuen is fake too...

[jmd161]

:eek:




;)





jeff:)

[David Jamieson]

the tao that can be spoken of is not the real tao.

lol!

[WinterPalm]

Ok Jon, was it the whiskers, the shifty rear leg. or the infinite amount of carrots I can cram in my mouth?:D

[jmd161]

Originally posted by WinterPalm
or the infinite amount of carrots I can cram in my mouth?:D




Hmmm



You know that just does'nt sound right for some reason!!:D



;)






jeff:)

[David Jamieson]

yeah.

I would've said lettuce, you know for the lion dance connection and the rabbit connection all in one shot but, well you can always edit that wp. lol

too much euphamism potential in that statement.

:D

[jon]

Originally posted by DeathTouch
Hey Jon , Look there's a Roo go fetch
*Nah... thats just your furry rodent like logic bouncing away :p

Winterpalm

Ok Jon, was it the whiskers, the shifty rear leg. or the infinite amount of carrots I can cram in my mouth?
* It was definately the shifty rear leg:D

[5thBrother]

winterpalm

ever find urself in australia?

or anytime soon (next couple years?)

thanks

[WinterPalm]

Can't say I've ever found myself in australia or in the next few years, why, is there a carrot eatting contest?