Grip training advice please...

[dwid]

To anyone who's done extensive grip training, particularly involving CoC grippers:

I've been having real problems lately with my training. Not only have I plateaud, but I feel like my right hand is getting slightly weaker. At one point, I closed the #1 gripper 7 times straight on my right hand. The last few workouts, the best I've done is closed it twice.

I guess I'm interested in how often you guys grip train, what supplemental grip training exercises you do besides the CoC stuff, what kind of warm-ups you do, etc...

I've been training 2 to 3 times per week and warm up on a snowball and in addition to the CoC stuff, I pinch grip two 10 pound plates and hold them for about a minute on each side and do the exercise where you attach one end of a rope to a plate and the other end to a pipe and roll up the rope (though I think of this as more of a wrist exercise than a grip exercise).

[Ford Prefect]

If you are getting weaker while training regularly, then there are really only two possibilities:

1) Something else you're doing is grip intensive and frying your grip before you train.

2) You are overtraining.

Take a look at your training and if you don't see anything that can interfere than take a week or two break from any grip training at all.

[rubthebuddha]

ford be right. i've kinda hit the plateau in my CoC work also (i can't close a #1 yet), but i took last week off, and on monday, i came within a millimeter of closing the **** thing, far better than i've ever done. :)

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
2) You are overtraining.


That's what I was going to say.

[sakko]

Can you guys link me to the grippers you are talking about? A friend of mine loaned me one that was like a metal framing, and inside had 5 rings attached to springs. The rings seem to mess with your knuckle joints though quite a bit.

I know there are others like 2 plastic bars attached with a metal coil. I'm assuming by the #1 talk that there are different strengths to them. Could I get a link?

[Ford Prefect]

http://www6.mailordercentral.com/ironmind/products.asp?dept=8

[WinterPalm]

The nature of hand strength lies in the tendons. THere are very few muscles that will grow to considerable size in the hand and so the training is something that will take years.
As for training.
Holding 2 10pd plates is a waste of time for a minute. You need to grab three or four or even five! Or try 2 25pd plates.
Sometimes a break is all that is needed. I usually train COC twice a week or so and that is after doing Ironpalm and a Hak Fu Pai form that really taxes the forearms, among other body parts. This leaves me very tired yet very warmed up with a good amount of energy flowing through my lower arms and hands. I am about one or two mm from closing the #2 and will close it within a week. I'll post when I do.
Go to IRonmind and read the grip tips by Brookfield or buy one of his books.
Train in all sorts of manners, do research.

[Merryprankster]

I kept getting teninitis in my elbow, no matter how infrequently I trained so I finally gave them away.

Bummer too... I was closing a #2 4 times in a row with my right and twice with my left.

I use pipe rope and weight now and it works well without the same problem.

BTW, it IS a grip exercise. While it may not be as specific, any exercise that strengthens your forearms will improve your grip.

[Ford Prefect]

Tendons and ligaments are not responsible for making any bone move. It's all muscle. While tendons and ligaments need to be strong enough to support the load and will respond to training, it's really the muscles of the hand and forearm that are responsible for grip strength.

[WinterPalm]

Then how do people like Slim Farmman, who has thin looking arms and not a lot of muscle yet can lever twenty pound sledgehammers?
Or Joe Kinney who can close the #4, or has anyway, and isn't that big?

[rubthebuddha]

big does not equal strong, period. lean does not equal strong. strong equals strong.

[ComeToJesus]

More efficient motor neuron recruitment = stronger.
How effcient you are at recruiting is not proportional to the size of your muscle.

[Ford Prefect]

Rub is correct. Just look at the world's record holders for women olympic and powerlifters in the 120 lbs weight class. They can outlift a lot of 250 lbs bodybuilders. You can train for muscle density and neurological efficiency and still remain relatively skinny. Big muscles are something else. Me and a few other people on here can explain more in-depth if you want.

[IronFist]

Ford is right. Big muscles aren't required for strength.

[Toby]

dwid, you asked what we do:

I train grip 3 times a week. Sunday and Tuesday I do 3 sets of wrist rollers with 33lb. One set is rolling away until the top, then I drop it and roll it towards me until the top. Then I do 3x8 on the CoC #1. I superset with abdominal work. On Fridays I do the same, then follow up with 3x3 negatives on the CoC #2. Saturday mornings my forearms are fried (very noticably tired), but the other 2 training sessions don't really affect them the next days.

Funny you asked this today. Yesterday I ordered some more Ironmind stuff. Anyway, to mix up my training I'm gunna weld up the loading pins that they use to hold weights. I'll also weld up a hub pinch gripper and maybe a block pinch gripper. One thing I ordered was a pair of olympic Bulldog collars. I'm gunna get a 2-3' section of 2" pipe and make up a homemade Heavy Hammer II.

Other things for my grip? Deadlift and pullups work it. So far I can DL up to around 320lb double pronated grip. Over that I've started to use alternating grip. I haven't dropped it yet, but it just makes it easier. Today I did 308lb without coming close to dropping it. Maybe I'll keep trying to hold it pronated for heavier lifts.


WinterPalm, you must have big hands to grip 5 10lb plates :eek:.

[WinterPalm]

Nah, my hands are small and that was just an idea of where your training can go. I can barely get four to clear the floor but have no problem with two 25's.

I understand about size not determining strength, that wasn't what I was trying to say.
With the biceps, say, you have a large muscle to pull the weight up, but with your hand, you've only got a ton of little muscles that will not respond to the load in the same manner. They are many and so have more connective tissues which will need to be strengthened.
I also know that tendons don't move the muscle, however, all the world's strongest men, with the biggest squat, the biggest deadlift, and the biggest bench are all very large, why, because the muscles have adapted to the stress put on them and in order to have a maximum output, they must grow.
Many times I've heard of lifters tearing tendons because they cannot keep up with the training due to a use of steriods, so I believe they are responsible for a degree of strength.
This shows that tendons do compensate for some of the strength, or a lot for that manner, otherwise the great grip people would have enormous hands!:eek:

[IronFist]

Originally posted by WinterPalm
all the world's strongest men, with the biggest squat, the biggest deadlift, and the biggest bench are all very large, why, because the muscles have adapted to the stress put on them and in order to have a maximum output, they must grow.

Well... kind of.

What you said is right, to an extent. The men with the absolute highest lifts (paying no attention to weight class) are pretty big. But then again, the first guy to squat over 1000lbs, Fred Hatfield, doesn't have as big of legs as like Bodybuilder Tom Platz, who can't squat as much.

Now, if you look at the lifters who are strongest relative to bodyweight, you'll come up with a list of lightweight lifters. Ok now I'm just making these numbers up here, but you'll get the point:

You might see a 120lb lifter who can deadlift 480lbs. This is 4x his bodyweight. But you won't see a 300lb lifter who can deadlift 1200lbs, which would be 4x his bodyweight.

Now, if they're both trained athletes, the 300lb lifter will most likely have higher totals (be able to lift more weight total) than the 120lb guy, but it won't be as high relative to his bodyweight. The 300lb guy might have an 800 or 900lb deadlift, which is much higher than the 120lb guy's 480lbs deadlift.

I forgot exactly why (Ford can probably explain better), but at high levels of training (maybe at all levels?) the bigger you get, the weaker you get relative to your bodyweight, altho your absolute strength will be higher.

Make sense?



otherwise the great grip people would have enormous hands!:eek:

Not really. Most of the gripping muscles are in the forearms.

[Ford Prefect]

Iron is correct. There are 3 small muscles in the hand, but the majority of grip strength comes from the forearms. Just look at any rodeo rider. They have huge forearms. Look at a blacksmith. Huge forearms. Etc. A muscle doesn't have to be big in order to contract hard.

The contraction properties of a muscle are controlled by these cord-like structures calles myofabrils. When you train to handle a maximum load like power lifting or oly lifting or even gymnastics, the hard contraction of the muscles causes these myofabrils to thicken which makes them more able to contract harder. (ie handle more weight) The thing is that very little of this growth is visible. In the grand scheme of things, it's so small that a guy won't look huge because of it. It will make him appear more "dense" if he has low bodyfat though. On top of that, the handling of maximal weight causes the central nervous system (CNS) to adjust.

We are only able to use a percentage of our total muscle strength. The CNS governs how hard our msucles to contract to stop us from breaking our bones and ripping muscles. As you lift heavier weights, the CNS becomes disinhibitted. While a novice lifter might be able to contract 45-50% of his fibers at once, an elite power lifter can contract 80%. That alone would be a huge leap in strength without even factoring in the physical training of the muscle itself.

Big muscles are something different. While the general way to train for muscle growth (big muscles) will cause the myofabrils to grow slightly, the bulk of the growth is from the energy delivery system of the muscle called sarcoplasm. That's why bodybuilders train to failure and go for the "pump" and "burn" because they want their energy systems to be taxed so much that the amount of sarcoplasm will grow. This is what jacked guys do. Sarcoplasm is jelly-like in nature and that's why a huge guy can still appear soft. It's because he neglected the myofabrils in his training...

In short, you can have a strong a grip without being big. You can be strong in any regards without being big. Tendons and ligaments don't have as much to do with it as muscles/cns.

BTW, what iron is talking about is true how relative strength decreases with bodyweight. They actually have coefficients that they apply in powerlifting and oly lifting comps to actually judge how a bigger and smaller guy compare to each other.

[IronFist]

Ford, I don't think I've ever seen a big bodybuilder with low bodyfat who had "soft" looking muscles. I know there are some guys who never train with heavy weights, tho. Maybe I'm not looking at it right. And when all I was doing was PTP stuff, I never thought my muscles looked any "denser" than anyone elses.

But I always hear that "soft" and "dense" thing that you were talking about, so I dunno what to think.

[Ford Prefect]

You have arnold's encyclopedia, right? Look at Franco Columbo and Arnie, and then compare them with guys like Lee Priest, or that huge gay looking German dude.

I even think Arnie talks about it in their when talking about him and Franco always looked denser than other guys because they started out as "weightlifters" which is Autrian Oak for power lifters.

[mickey]

dwid,

Check out Toby's last paragraph on page one with regard to other exercises. It is right on the money.

mickey

[Dale Dugas]

I use the COC equipment as well and love em. Just got me a #2 in the mail the other day. Tough little b a s t a r d s to train with but they will keep you going.

I train every other day and only do low reps with high intensity. I warm up with the trainer for about 10 reps per hand and then use my twist yo wrist little wrist roller, then go to the big forearm wrist roller with medium weight.

Then at the end of the lower arm workout I do 4 sets of 5 reps on the number 1. I squeeze the gripper like hell, like im trying to break it for one rep.

After I use the iron balls to help smooth out the tension I packed into my hands with this type of workout. Then I use jow and massage and then a little shaking qi gong to move qi and blood out and into the hands.

this works for me, but not for everyone else. Like mentioned before you have to play around with your workouts and schedules and see what works for you.

Cheers,

Dale Dugas

[Odin of Wei]

I never knew there was levels to the hand gripper thingys.
How do I find out what level is mine? I got mine at like Wal-mart I think. ha ha ha

I haven't been doing them lately but I still think I have the best grip in my whole school.

Girls seem to be intrested in the thingys...they always take them from me (just to be random). :D

[WinterPalm]

The one you bought at Wal-Mart can be anywhere from 30 to 40 pounds of pressure depending on if it's bailey's or some other company like that, some even come with foam on them, truly embrassing. However, york sells them in Wal-mart, or i've seen them anyway, and those are about 60 pounds of pressure.
Ironmind, which sells incredible products, starts with the Trainer at 100 pounds of pressure, then a 1 at 140, a 2 at 195, the 3 is at 280 and the 4 at 365 pounds of pressure! I recommend you get these and forget about the Wal-Mart one, if you have the strongest hands with just that, you must be very strong naturally because those do very little for strength but more for endurance.

[bustr]

What are you guys doing in the way of reps? I use a circular concrete step from my back yard. To work the outside of the forearms I pinch it with both hands over my head and flex for about 60 reps. When I curl it to work the inside I can only get about half that. I'm also holding and flexing a couple of 4 lb sledges with 5 lb ankle weights wrapped around the handle near the head. I just hang the hammers and flex up in 4 directions.
My muscles don't really give out but the pain is intense

I've seen alot of progress but I'm not sure that my training is optimal. Can anyone offer an opinion?

Thanks

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
You have arnold's encyclopedia, right? Look at Franco Columbo and Arnie, and then compare them with guys like Lee Priest, or that huge gay looking German dude.

I even think Arnie talks about it in their when talking about him and Franco always looked denser than other guys because they started out as "weightlifters" which is Autrian Oak for power lifters.

I remember Arnold talking about he and Franco looking more dense because of the powerlifting background...

...but I also remember him talking about upper and lower abs, as well.

Perhaps I'll look through it again.

Which gay looking German dude?

[Odin of Wei]

Originally posted by WinterPalm
The one you bought at Wal-Mart can be anywhere from 30 to 40 pounds of pressure depending on if it's bailey's or some other company like that, some even come with foam on them, truly embrassing. However, york sells them in Wal-mart, or i've seen them anyway, and those are about 60 pounds of pressure.
Ironmind, which sells incredible products, starts with the Trainer at 100 pounds of pressure, then a 1 at 140, a 2 at 195, the 3 is at 280 and the 4 at 365 pounds of pressure! I recommend you get these and forget about the Wal-Mart one, if you have the strongest hands with just that, you must be very strong naturally because those do very little for strength but more for endurance.
I have like two for both hands, I try to do 50 everyday but I kept forgetting as of late.
But they are pretty small...probably 40 pounds.

Do you know of a store where I can get better ones....better as in more pounds of pressure but yet you can at least put your hand around it. ha ha ha

[dwid]

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

It seems likely I have been overtraining.

I picked up the Brookfield books on my last Ironmind order, but haven't had time to read them yet because of my work and school schedule. Hopefully they will have lots of clever solutions for shooting past plateaus.

I don't have 4 or 5 ten pound plates, and don't think I could get my hand around that many if I did. However, I'm in the process of rigging something so I can hang additional weight off a pair of 10 lb. plates, so that should be fun.