any martial artist girls in southern california want to hang out?

[KFSSchaosmaster]

hey everyone,
i don't know if you could do personal ad here or not so i'll try anyway. i'm looking for a 18-20 yeard old girl who lives in moreno valley or riverside,california. and is studying martial arts. i'm studying kung fu san soo myself. and either likes to draw,play video games, watch cartoons and anime. but mostly drawing. and someone who wouldn't drink or smoke. someone to hang out and talk about the art. and someone christian. i'm mormon myself so i'll teach you about my chruch if you want. please e-mail me at gunblade007@yahoo.com or relpy to this message. thank you for your time.
-Joe:)

[Eddie]

Are mormons allowed to do MArtial Arts? We have had some 'hasles' with some local religious groups who thinks that martial arts come from the devil.

[Ralphie]

This may be the first time I've ever seen on line proselytizing.

[sean_stonehart]

oooooohhhhhh nooooooooo.... just go check out on the net in no place specific stuff like "Karate for Christ" or similar stuff.... lots of online preaching....

[KFSSchaosmaster]

well eddie did you think kung fu was only for buddist. i bet there are some jewish who do martial arts. any chruch can do it. martial arts don't have anything to do with the devil. kung fu san soo is a martial art that is deadly i could kill people with my moves. but a long time kung fu san soo was only for asian people and now it's for all race. and plus my teacher is mormon too and two of my friends who are in kung fu san soo.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Hi there,

As you will all know, I have been in a wheel chair for a number of years. My nurse Katrina as recently moved overseas. I am in need of female nurses to tend to my needs. They need not be qualified in nursing just as long as they're between the ages of 18 and 23. Applicants should send a copy of their resume and a picture to my email below.

Look forward to hearing from you.

[Jamesbond_007]

i'm mormon myself so i'll teach you about my chruch if you want.

now is that appropriate? Are you really mormon? Most mormons I know would never do this. What ward are you in? What Stake?
Why are you trying to pick-up on girls online? When I was younger I remember going to some of my mormon friends church dances to meet girls. Why don't you try here?

[Eddie]

No disrespect intended, I was really just curious. In my country, people take their religion very serious, and often they are very closed minded when it comes to certain issues. We often get people from different religious sects who come to our kung fu school and try to tell us Martial Arts is from the devil. Someone actually once gave me a book to read about this, but I came as far as the first page. Then there was some religious group once who took a Saturday afternoon and protested in front of our school shouting anti martial arts slogans. Their minister was American, and I am pretty sure they were from the same faith as you.

I respect all religions. My religious views are different to most people in my family, and I know what it is like when people start to pick on your beliefs. This wasn’t my intention, so please don’t take it like that.

Hey, isn’t San Soo just a hybrid offspring of CLF?

[yutyeesam]

You wanna find women who do martial arts and you're advertising on a KUNG-FU SITE??? (see tagline below)

Try Taekwondo. You'll yield better results more consistently. Better yet, try Yoga. Even though Yoga is not technically a martial art, there was a movie way back when called Kung-Fu vs. Yoga, so therefore, it counts. Besides that, Yoga is only degree of separation from Kung-Fu (Kung-Fu->Tai Chi->Yoga). But you might run into those Yoga chicks who think they're all better than us Kung-Fu hooligans, so it's best to go for the "Hippie Variety". It used to be those were the only ones doing it, but ever since celebreties started doing Yoga, more cosmo-type women started getting into it. Sure they look better, but in the end, she'll be nagging, overbearing, high maintenance, and strip you of your manhood, so best to go with the Yoga-Hippy-Chick.

Am I right or what!

[GeneChing]

...if you get any takers.

if you don't, we'll all just laugh at you.

[TenTigers]

SYWMNRNSMAA (SINGLE YOUNG WHITE MALE NON RELIGIOUS NON SMOKER MARTIAL ARTIST) in search of young Asian female(no 12 yr old Thai kids,no Russian Mafia male order brides No Transvestities)must be open minded, experimental,into new things,risk taker,leather, rubber, latex,role playing.hardcore.double-jointed,shotguns,hydraulics,welding masks,bungee cords,licorice whips,walks in the park, easy listenin music(BeeGees, ABBA) Keats, Machiavelli,Kant,Neitche,Dennis Hopper, Christopher Walken, loves children and spiders, and the Lord.

[jon]

kung fu san soo is a martial art that is deadly i could kill people with my moves.
* Wow that poor girl better be carefull, you might accidently kill her with one of your deadly moves.

[HopGar]

I didn't think I'd be posting on here for while, but I'm back...
I think this goes down in the classics section........No disrespect intended though. (Good one Gene) Let me know if you manage to get anyone on this forum. Try the main forum, maybe you'll get more results there (snicker.) Better yet, try a real social setting. Just a friendly suggestion for your neighborhood tibetan martial artist. ;c)

Peace!

[SevenStar]

I've been debating. I dunno whether to delete this thread or laugh about it...

[Serpent]

How could you delete this poor lad's desperate search.

Besides, Gene got involved and he outranks you, so bakdafugup! ;)

[GeneChing]

I dunno whether to delete this thread or laugh about it... I had the same dilemna. In the end, I figured what harm in it and if KFSSchaosmaster does manage to hook up it would be good for the forum. We'll see. No snickering until he's had his fair shot at the "18-20 yeard old girl"...

but if he never connects, we can have a laugh riot at his expense.

[Eddie]

We have a big kung fu school in terms of premises. Our building used to be an old health club so we have some extra enclosed studios (old Aerobic studios). We offer Taebo there to supplement our income and one of the studios we rent out the a very erotic erm I mean exotic girl who teaches belly dancing. Needless to say, the guys in our school has never complained about the lovely ladies who often distract our kung fu sessions when their classes end.

I can offer to set up a web cam should the need arise …… :)

[HopGar]

How long is a fair shot? I can't hold the snickering back much longer........

Peace!

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Eddie
We have a big kung fu school in terms of premises. Our building used to be an old health club so we have some extra enclosed studios (old Aerobic studios). We offer Taebo there to supplement our income and one of the studios we rent out the a very erotic erm I mean exotic girl who teaches belly dancing. Needless to say, the guys in our school has never complained about the lovely ladies who often distract our kung fu sessions when their classes end.

I can offer to set up a web cam should the need arise …… :)

Should the need arise?!

Pictures, NOW!

;)

[meltdawn]

darn... i'm not in cali, i'm not 18-20, and i probably would smoke and drink if we hung out.

waitaminute...

hey gene, can i put up my own personal??? :D

[David Jamieson]

Luke 22:36 - Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


Just wanted to throw that in for you anti-martial arts jesus freaks.


cheers

[Chinwoo-er]

Come on guys, give the kid a break.
If he wants to try and hook up here, it really isn't nice to make fun of his attempt. Can you imagine the courage he has to draw up to post a message like this ?

Don't laugh, if he is unsuccessful, it is more a tragedy than a comedy.:(

Kid, if you want better places to hook up with MA ladies, PM me and I will give you a better link.

Most of the female members here on KFM are already occupied

[meltdawn]

Originally posted by Chinwoo-er

Most of the female members here on KFM are already occupied

really? ****!! i guess i should stop hunting in the spots i hang. why not? i already stopped sh **** ting in them. :D

[denali]

Hmm.. Kung Lek,

"Jesus freaks" eh ? Some people might take offense to that I would think...

You should stick to pretending you know Hung Gar, and avoid the derogatory comments toward religious groups I think... :P

[SevenStar]

bah. Let him be a heathen in peace!

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by SevenStar
bah. Let him be a heathen in peace!

:werd: yo

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Chinwoo-er
Don't laugh, if he is unsuccessful, it is more a tragedy than a comedy.:(


"Comedy is tragedy happening to somebody else."

;)

[David Jamieson]

hey denali, are you one of those "martial arts hating" jesus freaks i mentioned? Because if you are, I totally meant to offend you. :D

I probably could recite more KJ red ink phrases from st mark's book than you while I practice my bridging anyway. lol


nerd:rolleyes:

[Shaolinlueb]

so i wonder if this kid has had any luck?

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
so i wonder if this kid has had any luck?

how many girls do you know who would actually hang out on a kungfu forum instead of chatting on the phone amongst themselves?

I don't know any. I suspect his chances of meeting a girl on a kf forum is ZERO.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk


how many girls do you know who would actually hang out on a kungfu forum instead of chatting on the phone amongst themselves?

I don't know any. I suspect his chances of meeting a girl on a kf forum is ZERO. I don't know about girls, but he can sure meet a lot of *****es here....

[SevenStar]

That almost made me fall outta my chair...

[freehand]

Yo, KFSSchaosmaster, I trained under Al Rubin in Riverside some <mumble> years ago... As I recall, only about 1 in 10 people who walk in off the street and train were female; San Soo looks pretty scary and only hardcore females were interested (yum! I married one.)

You might want to consider training in aikido in addition to San Soo. It *is a subcategory of fighting techniques, and tends to be about 50/50 male-female.

It's a hard task you've picked for yourself... looking for a martial arts babe. But persevere; it's worth it if you succeed. I'm a grandpa now, and my honey recently helped me pay for mats for the living room. She's never asked for a matched dining room set, but she *has asked for fighting knives for Christmas and combs the web looking for interesting seminars for us to attend.

Our daughter trains with us now, too.

But I don't think you want to ask on this forum. I mean, we live all over the world. Go to martial arts seminars and demos of other arts in the Riverside San-Berdoo area. Visit schools (but don't tell them San Soo is better than their art (even though it is)). Can you take some classes in the local junior college or UCR? I met my lady in UCR while she was taking classes in karate and judo and aikido. Look around town - you'll have better luck meeting a local gal locally than you will here.

[Brithlor]

Someone asked if san soo were an offspring of CLF....

From what I gather the person who brought san soo to the USA (Jimmy Woo) learned "San Soo" from his uncle. However, apparently his uncle was CLF person.

It would seem that San Soo may be a creation of Jimmy Woo himself, a combination of some of what he learned in CLF and his own street fighting experience.

The absence of san soo in China and any records of its existance make claims that San Soo was a 3 thousand year old battlefield martial art appear to be... false. Some inconsistancies with some material Jimmy Woo claimed to have taken with him to America also do not add anything to the art's historical credibility... But even if it were created by the former grandmaster himself, or were truely a 5 thousand year old martial art doesn't add or detract anything from what the art actually is... but it seems like a lot of martial art instructors (not just san soo) dwell too long on how old an art is, and the mystical and secretive ways of its founders when trying to sell people on their style, instead of what it actually offers.

When Jimmy Woo first started his school it was much more focused on strikes, kicks and conditioning (from what I understand from his students -- I was not there), but became more focused on throws and leverages. Its quite apparent when comparing two Kung Fu San Soo schools together.

I personally no longer train San Soo because I feel it doesn't teach very much in the way of actually fighting some one once the element of surprise is destroyed... especially since most of their schools do not even allow light sparring, but I still like to use some of the leverages and strikes, and I'm sure it can be a very unpleasant surprise to your opponent if you manage to catch them by surprise, buy could also be an upleasant surprise to a practitioner of the style if they developed a false sense of confidence through unrealistic instruction when faced with an actual fighter.

Anyway, I just wanted to respond to one of those posters above...

Good luck on your noble search though :).

[GeneChing]

...to move this to the ORA forum?;)

[buddah_belly]

I'm a girl and I read these things. And I'm not *****y. That's the problem with you stupid boys...nevermind. :) Luckily, I'm not in the market for religious guys.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by buddah_belly
I'm a girl and I read these things. And I'm not *****y. That's the problem with you stupid boys...nevermind. :) Luckily, I'm not in the market for religious guys.

Are you sure that you are a girl? We got one members here registered under a girl's name. I seriously doubt there's anyone with two x chromosomes hanging around this fourm.

[Clfhs4life]

the real question is who would want a girl named buddah belly! lot of girls do TKD ive noticed. wish i could meet one also 8(

[Toby]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
Are you sure that you are a girl? We got one members here registered under a girl's name.
Any hints? :p

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Toby

Any hints? :p

The guy is a lot more cordial these day when he do post. So, there's no need to "out" him. You won't think he is a girl based on his old posts and he did come out in the open on a thread in the northern mantis forum saying it was all a psych. game. It was kind of funny because someone reposted his proclaimation on the main forum.

[buddah_belly]

Hints, let's see, I'm a girl, I have two X chromosomes. I hang out around here, because occasionally, I can learn some things about kung fu from y'all. I have yearly exams with the gynecologist. I can't get too much more graphic than that, but I hope you get the idea.

The real question is why would a guy want to pose as a girl?

And I like Buddah's belly...rub it for good luck...ya know?

[Pork Chop]

I can back up that melty's a hot chick....
Tho I think she's taken...

-Pork Chop

[Serpent]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk


The guy is a lot more cordial these day when he do post. So, there's no need to "out" him. You won't think he is a girl based on his old posts and he did come out in the open on a thread in the northern mantis forum saying it was all a psych. game. It was kind of funny because someone reposted his proclaimation on the main forum.

Who was/is it? Come on, spill the goss! ;)

[freehand]

Off topic! But the heretic must be addressed!

Brithlor: "Someone asked if san soo were an offspring of CLF....apparently [Jimmy Woo's] uncle was CLF person."

I only hear that from CLF people... Maybe CLF is an offshoot of San Soo? How much can we trust our verbal histories? I heard that the monks in the Quan Yin Temple in Guandong Province created San Soo by combining Choy, Li, and Ho family arts. Perhaps these predate either modern CLF *or San Soo? Perhaps the founder of CLF mastered these family arts, then called his art CLF. They were neighbors, and in the 19th century especially martial arts schools often allied themselves fighting a corrupt government, even exchanging sons or other senior students. I have confirmed that the temple existed, and I know that Jimmy had two ancient books (forms and combinations) which he claimed his great-great-great grandad took from the temple. <shrug> I have no reason to disbelieve that. Nor do I think I have the whole story.

Chinese fighters add years to their arts like American fishermen add inches to the fish that got away.

Brithlor:"The absence of san soo in China..." When the Japanese invaded, they machine-gunned Jimmy's great-uncle and all of his students (at least, those who did not flee the army...).

There is an art taught here and there in Southern China called Southern Shaolin Short-Range Boxing, that uses the same characters as San Soo's real name: Choy Lee Ho Fut Hung Ga. I have not seen it in action, so I have no opinion, but perhaps those schools derive from survivors of the San Soo massacre.

Brithlor:"... it seems like a lot of martial art instructors (not just san soo) dwell too long on how old an art is, and the mystical and secretive ways of its founders when trying to sell people on their style, instead of what it actually offers." Yup. But how else is the beginner supposed to know if the instructor knows what he's talking about? What *credentials would a propsective 18th century student look for?

Brithlor:"When Jimmy Woo first started his school it was much more focused on strikes, kicks and conditioning (from what I understand from his students -- I was not there), but became more focused on throws and leverages."

After my teacher had trained with Jimmy for a few years, he went to class and Jimmy did a series of flowing aiki-jitsu-like techniques. "What the heck is that!?"

Jimmy said, "Now we come to the soft technique part of the books..." These book were written in the monastary, not necessarily as a learner's primer. More like an encylopedia, perhaps, than a textbook.

Brithlor:"I personally no longer train San Soo because I feel it doesn't teach very much in the way of actually fighting some one once the element of surprise is destroyed... "

How rapidly does the surprise of a broken knee wear off?

Brithlo: "especially since most of their schools do not even allow light sparring,.."
I have always found gouged eyes, bitten noses, stomped knees, and dislocated fingers to be frowned upon in most tournaments or sparring sessions. But to each his own.

As for light sparring, yes, some of my teachers in other arts use it as a training tool. But I see most students who spar just learning to be fast and clumsy. Perhaps it is taught better elsewhere. When I trained in San Soo, I also did aikido; my buddy did judo, we had several boxers. We were not discouraged from expanding our horizons.

If I knew it all, I wouldn't have to train But until I know it all, I cannot be sure of the best path to take. I just hope someday to throw a punch without wobbling.

[Eddie]

I have really no interested in Jimmy Woo or his kung fu san soo. Im just posting this as someone asked this same question in two different threats.
In my country there is a guy who now claims that he trained under one of Jimmy Woo’s students’ distant learning programs. According to this guy, they guarantee him that he will not loose any fights, and if he does, he can get his money back. It was a bit outrageous and the poor guy seemed to have believed this guarantee, so it was sad indeed. After our local martial arts fraternity made a bit of fun with this guy, he confronted his distant learning sifu about this but he seemed to have had some other explanation for it all. One day, I might post the whole story for you all to decide.

As for someone saying san soo might be an offspring from CLF, as it originates from Ho family art? I don’t think this is true. I don’t read Chinese, but my best friend does, and he translated the Ho in Tsoi Li Ho Foh Hung to me. That Ho has nothing to do with martial arts. It’s a religious title which goes with the Foh (or Fut), and the Hung is not the same as hung ga. I’m going to ask him to give me the correct translations for this, but I think maybe someone like sisuk Xjospeh should assist us here. We also have two students in our school whos last name is Ho, and it’s a completely different way of writing.

CLF is an established art where the lineages can be traced to particular families (who still have decedents). I don’t know about san soo.

[freehand]

Aargh. A perversion of the teachings. It cannot be learned without hands-on practice. And it was emphasized to us over and again that there *are no guarantees. "You're just improving your odds," my teacher would say.

That poor guy got ripped off. Hope he never met a mugger. Heh.

Thanx for the info on the characters. Between various romanizations, different dialects, and the Chinese propensity for ****nyms, one needs to be able to *read Chinese to sort it out.

[Bwahahaha! I wrote h+o+m+o+nym, and some fool censorship program bleeped me out.]

Perhaps there is no relationship at all between San Soo and CLF, except that which comes from being neighbors.

[Eddie]

Well I read on the CLF forum at clfma.com that Jimmy Woo is related to Chan siu Dik (if memory serves me well) who is a Chan family descendant.

San Sooo pretty much means any type of fighting, so maybe that’s just what it is, kind of like mixed ‘ chinese’ martial arts. In my country the buzz word these days is “ Combat” (Combat Karate, Combat Tang Soo Do, Combat Ninjitsu and Close Quarter Combat something) so maybe we should call that Combat Choy Lay Fut to keep up with modern trends (Sounds pretty cool doesnt it).

I saw pictures of Jimmy Woo already in his old age, and he looked like one tough guy. His body also looked very athletic and well kept, even in his old age.

[brothernumber9]

from what I gather reading different threads:
choy lee hot fut = cai li fo = choy lay fut just different dialects.
san soo = san shou just different dialects
but Its more or less just conjecture (from me anyway).

[freehand]

Eddie: "Well I read on the CLF forum at clfma.com that Jimmy Woo is related to Chan siu Dik (if memory serves me well) who is a Chan family descendant."

I had never heard of Chan in this regard until I read it on these threads a few days ago. Jimmy's real name was Chin Diu Dek. Are people confused because of the similarities? Are these different romanizations of the same name/character? Same name in different dialects ? I dunno. Seems like a bit of a coincidence otherwise.

Eddie: "San Sooo pretty much means any type of fighting, so maybe that’s just what it is, kind of like mixed ‘ chinese’ martial arts. In my country the buzz word these days is “ Combat” (Combat Karate, Combat Tang Soo Do, Combat Ninjitsu and Close Quarter Combat something) so maybe we should call that Combat Choy Lay Fut to keep up with modern trends (Sounds pretty cool doesnt it)."

Kind of. (They are the same characters as the sport San Shou; but are otherwise not related.) The characters mean literally "unrestrained hand". "Freestyle" (not exactly sparring) is our main training method, and so the name. The original name was Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung Gar, or at least that's how it was spelled for me. This page illustrates why there is so much confusion among our people:
http://www.geocities.com/san_soowushu/Drama2.html

When he first opened his school to non-Chinese, he called it "Karate Kung Fu", because no non-Chinese American knew what "kung fu" was.

Eddie: "I saw pictures of Jimmy Woo already in his old age, and he looked like one tough guy. His body also looked very athletic and well kept, even in his old age."

That he was.

[Eddie]

Freehand,
Thanks for the link you posted. It actually answers all the questions.

Look at this lineage, it means your style is simply choy lay fut (or atleast so I understand):

Choy Fok--Li San--Chan Wu
|
Chan Heung (Leung)
|
Chan Koon and Chan On
|
Chan Su Hung
|
Chan Siu Duk and Chan Sai Mo
|
James Benckert

San Shou just means free hands, which can mean anything. Taiji has san shou sets which I believe refers to hand sparring sets or something.

I was wondering, does your Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung style have any forms, or is it just techniques and sparring?

Regards
Ed

Btw – the spelling on this site, writes the hung ga different to that on another tsoi li ho fo hung site.

[JAZA]

Chan= Chin in Toishanese I think.

[freehand]

Eddie: Yea, Jimmy Woo liked to fight, and I don't know how much else was in the system that he may have learned but wasn't especially interested in. Perhaps nothing. Learning healing is a good thing (I was a nurse and medic in the army), but it's not clear to me how it helps a person in a fight. It might make the person a well-rounded person... so do my daughter's piano lessons, but I don't know if they contribute to her knife skills.

It has forms. We were told that the 26-move forms we were taught were short sections of longer forms.There was a formula for putting them together into one big honkin' form, but we were only taught the shorter ones. One per month, but we only had to know one we liked plus the current one; they were not progressive. Unlike some forms I've learned elsewhere, these included no chin na or throws, only strikes and kicks. Nor were they an "encyclopedia" of techniques as they were in some arts. They were practiced at medium speed usually, altho they could be sped up or slowed as the student wanted. Their purposes included, but were not necessarily limited to, learning balance, rhythm, posture, breathing, and the devlopment of strength thru dynamic tension. They were an important and underappreciated element of our training (if Jimmy didn't think they helped our fighting, I don't think he would have bothered), but 90% of our practice was the san soo, the freestyle.

Freestyle was not sparring, altho it had no predetermined moves (unless the student was trying to work out how to do a new technique). One student would attack, and the defending student would respond with spontaneous techniques that he had been taught in class. he might do a particular block w/ simultaneous counterstrike, then follow up with any number of strike combinations, chin na, throws, etc. Then he would attack, and the other defend.

So unlike sparring, where two students compete, even if it is low key and friendly, the outcome is predetermined - just not which techniques. This allows flow, and practice of techniques like eye strikes, knee kicks, throat punches, etc. The attacker responds as tho he had really been hit, even tho the strikes are pulled (the chin na is really applied). You kick me in the groin on the street, I *will double over, allowing you to wrap around my head for a hip throw, of knee me in the nose. You can't get that response from someone you're sparring with. This is similar to randori in aikido, only meaner :)

For instance, I throw a right punch. You step outside the strike with your left foot and parry with a right palm, simultaneously kicking (but pulling the kick) my groin with a snap roundhouse. I double over, you reach over with your left hand over my head, grab my chin, then rotate left into a left horse. My chin twists left, my body follows, and I land on the ground on my side facing away from you, you kick my kidney.

[Brithlor]

There seem to be so many inconsistances about San Soo history... that I don't think that -- unless some important part of its history is discovered -- that where it came from, who invented it or anything else can be truely known...

I've heard a lot of claims about the martial art's age... some say 3 thousand, others claim as much as 5 thousand. Where is this number coming from?

The books Jimmy Woo's family has are really the only thing they could show as proof of its age and how unchanged the techinques are from the martial art's invetion. You would think that revealing these books material would really bolster San Soo's community... But as far as I know no one outside of the Jummy Woo's family and the supposed monks who created those books have ever seen their contents.

Surely there would be more proof of a 4 thousand year old martial art than two books that no one has ever seen?

I know no more about who Jimmy Woo's uncle was (the person he apparently learned "San Soo" from) besides what I have heard from the San Soo community and elsewhere... so I can't really say and more than apparently ther person Jimmy Woo claimed was his teacher of San Soo is actually a CLF person, and what he taught was his own version of it.

Whenever I'm discussing this topic I might come across as a little too hard on San Soo... but that would only be from all the garbage my former San Soo teacher claimed... Such as San Soo being the basis for 90% of the arts in China, and the "obvious" superiority San Soo has over all the other martial arts, since it is not flowery and allows for low level belts to destroy any other martial artist... even without conditioning or sparring... but I don't want to ramble on too long about that.

[Brithlor]

The problems I have with San Soo is not the about the history... but the way it is trained.

It seems like most San Soo people think that "If I block and counter " at the same time that their opponent will just bend over and let them have their way with them

I have never seen any practice countering defensive moves or heard of that many San Soo people doing that.

It just doesn't seem like many San Soo people can actually use it in a situation where someone is resisting. You may say "well, how is he going to resist if I gouge his eyes, kick him in the groin and stomp his liver?" well... you might not even land a strike.

I think the freestyle fighting in san soo may be an important part of the training... since it teaches accurate strikes, flowing from one technique to the other, etc, but I just don't see how anyone could really defend themselves if they never practice anything more than that.

There is a place for controlled sparring too. One thing San Soo seems to really lack is any kind of fighting strategy... atleast light and controlled sparring... however artificial it may be (since the opponent won't react to each strike) teaches people to develop strategies to work off not just your partners offensive attacks... but how they defend aswell.

Anyway, I don't mean to take this off topic, but originally I wanted to just respond to someone's inquiry about the origin of San Soo... and now I just want to voice a different side of this arguement.

[freehand]

Brithor: "It seems like most San Soo people think that 'If I block and counter ' at the same time that their opponent will just bend over and let them have their way with them"
They generally will, if you make the block and counter...

The attacks are almost always long range attacks, haymakers and lunge punches and such. My jujitsu teacher calls them "the bulls". Once a good stun is applied, the followup techniques work just fine. I am studying kali/jeet kun do now to deal with the bridging. Not everyone will walk up and swing with a right roundhouse punch. I'm trying to learn to deal with the guy moving in quickly but cautiously, holding his folder knife in his dominant hand. Or the artist trained in a different combat style. I've been impressed by some of the Russian Systema people I've seen.

That said, the San Soo people I know who have been in fights have aquitted themselves well against experienced streetfighters, sometimes when badly outnumbered. I know of none personally who have fought any CLF students, or Chen Taiji teachers, or Shaolin monks. They have fared well against several karate stylists.

Brithor: "I have never seen any practice countering defensive moves or heard of that many San Soo people doing that."
I have in my kali and jujitsu classes. Does that count?

Brithor: "It just doesn't seem like many San Soo people can actually use it in a situation where someone is resisting. "

San Soo does just fine against those whose primary training focus has been sport competition. But there are other combat arts out there, aren't there?

Brithor: "I think the freestyle fighting in san soo may be an important part of the training... since it teaches accurate strikes, flowing from one technique to the other, etc, but I just don't see how anyone could really defend themselves if they never practice anything more than that."

I say the same for those who practice only sparring. <sigh.> When I get all the pieces to the puzzle of hand combat I'll let you know :)

I have seen *some countering of techniques in San Soo. You might say that nearly all of the training involves a counter, but it was usually countering strikes, kicks, or simple grabs. Most of my chin na countering has been from my jujitsu teacher, and I've learned a lot of drills and patterns in kali which allow my arms to flow out of grabs, traps, etc, without depending on the attacker's responses to my pain-inflicting strikes.

If I throw a roundhouse snap kick to your groin, and miss by three inches and hit your upper thigh, you won't even notice,

Brithor: "There is a place for controlled sparring too. One thing San Soo seems to really lack is any kind of fighting strategy... "

We cover tactics such as the basic keep one between you and the others, etc. I have heard of tournament people discussing tactics like "feel him out; see what kind of fighter he is". Well, every fight I've seen or heard of was over pretty fast. But that doesn't mean that my *five years (rookie stage only) covered all the bases. As far as I know, the upper belts mostly got more of the same.

My jujitsu teacher also teaches Chen Taiji; I know that reeling silk is real, and I am determined to learn it. I did little work in bridging in San Soo; kali is helping to fill that important um, gap.

As "nice" as aikido is, I have learned from it. Perhaps some of this I would have learned in San Soo if I had been able to stay, but I had not seen it being taught, nor heard of it there.

Brithor: "at least light and controlled sparring... however artificial it may be (since the opponent won't react to each strike) teaches people to develop strategies to work off not just your partners offensive attacks... but how they defend as well."

I am looking forward to holodecks; then we will be able to train without holding back. Until then, we will have to satisfy ourselves with simulating various aspects of combat thru different sorts of training.

Brithor: "Anyway, I don't mean to take this off topic, but originally I wanted to just respond to someone's inquiry about the origin of San Soo..."

Well, at least we got *that settled.

Bwahahahahaha!

[Eddie]

CLF ‘s strategy is that there are no definite blocks in the style, there are only counter attacks. A simple gwa choy becomes an effective block, obviously hoping to do some ‘damage’ while striking and so forth. (Actually, this concept of ‘no blocks only counter attacks’ is not limited to arts such as CLF only, as I found it in Northern Shaolin too.)

Maybe its just my poor English and comprehension, but I found it difficult to understand the last two post between freehand and brithlor and what they actually wanted to say.

There is defiantly a place for sparring as well as forms training in any kung fu style. Forms are about basic skills, and body dynamics which could give you an important ‘advantage’ in a fight, but fighting training (against resisting opponent as the JKD people say) is just an important.

I find it difficult to understand how they transmitted a 4 thousand year old style without the use of some kind of form method.

Is kung fu san soo then not just an older version of JKD?
:cool:

[freehand]

Eddie: "Is kung fu san soo then not just an older version of JKD? "

Nope. Perhaps a variant of Choy Lee Fut, however.

My art of San Soo is not 4 thousand years old; even the oral history I was given only claims 800 years. Monastic kung fu of some sort goes back maybe 2300 years.

The Apache Indians in North America have a martial art which they pass on to their young folk. The Hawaiins have what could pass for Pig Kung Fu - a martial art inspired by the meanest animal in the Islands outside of humans. Pre-gunpowder Europe had martial arts schools, teaching staff, hands, and sword. I suspect that martial arts go back at least to the begining of agriculture, and cities, and real warfare - 10,000 years. It may go back to the begining of modern humans, 100,000 years or more. When the first paleolithic warrior swung several sticks to see which one felt best; when he showed his son how to make a fist and where to punch, kung fu was born. There was kung fu before there was a China in any meaningful sense.

Yeah, San Soo has forms. We trained in freestyle (90%) and forms (10%).

[Brithlor]

"Brithor: "I have never seen any practice countering defensive moves or heard of that many San Soo people doing that."
I have in my kali and jujitsu classes. Does that count?"

Are you saying you've "fought" Jujitsu and Kali people... Or that Jujitsu and Kali teach you how to counter defensive moves? *EDIT* If you are learning those other martial arts to fill in any kind of gap in your San Soo training then you aren't really the "San Soo" people I'm reffering to. I'm talking about the ones who have the opinion that no other art is worth learning and that to learn a second martial art is just to "water down" San Soo.

Obviously I'm not implying that San Soo people can't fight what so ever... It comes natural to some people. It just seems like most of them have a difficult time usesing many of the things they practice all the time... such as throws and leverages against a resisting opponent... Not to mention being able to succeed in a fight against someone who also knows how to block.


"Brithor: "It seems like most San Soo people think that 'If I block and counter ' at the same time that their opponent will just bend over and let them have their way with them"
They generally will, if you make the block and counter..."

Well, my point is that your counter won't always land.... the few times I've sparred with San Soo people I can almost always block their counter attacks by just obstructing the path with my arms or legs at an unprotected area...

Also, even if the "stun" is landed it may not always have the desired effect. A scratch to the eyes (something I saw a lot as the usual stun in my school) may not stop the opponents' follow up attacks.

Also, anyone who is REALLY fighting you will almost always keep their groin in a hard to hit area. If you can catch someone off-guard using the "element of surprise", say if you walk up to a stranger and knee him in the groin it may work... But if someone is ready to fight you, when the element of surprise is gone that target becomes much more difficult to hit, and all you are really left with are the 'normal' attacks...

Anyway, I'm not trying to say that sparring is the only way to go... It just one important training element out of many, but it just seems like San Soo lacks something in the way of training versus a resisting opponent. If the circumstances are perfect in your training then maybe you can get all the same benefits of adding some kind of sparring, but I doubt it.

[Brithlor]

"My art of San Soo is not 4 thousand years old; even the oral history I was given only claims 800 years. Monastic kung fu of some sort goes back maybe 2300 years."

BTW, If anyone was confused *I* was never trying to say San Soo is 4 thousand years old. I had just heard that countless times from San Soo people... The claim that it is 800 years old is much more believable. Did Jimmy Woo himself ever say it was more than 800 years old, or is that something some of his students or grandstudents to try and add something to their martial art?

[freehand]

Brithor: "Are you saying you've "fought" Jujitsu and Kali people... Or that Jujitsu and Kali teach you how to counter defensive moves? "

I currently study under a kali teacher who has some Jeet Kun Do; I find his bridging techniques an excellent complement to San Soo. I also study under a jujitsu and Chen Taiji teacher. I am expanding my knowledge of chin na and pressure points under his tutelage, and we frequently work on countering chin na with chin na. He also uses friendly sparring as a training tool. I do not understand his Taiji yet, but I know something real is happening there, and I am working on push hands and other taiji play. I sometimes work out with another San Soo student who lives in the area.

Me:"if you make the block and counter..." Sorry for the ambiguity. I meant "make" as in "make the goal" in soccer/football... to succeed, not merely attempt. I am painfully aware that despite my intention, I may not make the block/counter. I want to add that "block and counter" never means block the punch, then follow with a strike. It was usually a simultaneous block-strike; often the block *was a strike; or the counter was a strike, with the block tossed in as "insurance".

Brithor: "Well, my point is that your counter won't always land.... the few times I've sparred with San Soo people I can almost always block their counter attacks by just obstructing the path with my arms or legs at an unprotected area..."

Something which I hope my kali will allow me to deal with.

Brithor: "Also, even if the "stun" is landed it may not always have the desired effect. A scratch to the eyes (something I saw a lot as the usual stun in my school) may not stop the opponents' follow up attacks."

This was told to us over and again, but if one's partners are always cooperative, it may not sink in at the bone and tendon level. Some of the bouncers say that they've seen people take a full-on kick to the groin, double over, straighten up, then come right back into the fight. And if I throw a finger jab at your eyes and thump your forehead, you won't notice.

A jab to the eyes was not, of course, the end of the fight, but merely the buying of a fraction of a second to follow up with a sequence of blows. How long would I have to close my eyes for *you to hit me a couple of times?

Brithor: "Also, anyone who is REALLY fighting you will almost always keep their groin in a hard to hit area."

Anyone who simply rushes in, swinging wide, will leave something open. My jujitsu teacher calls the people who charge in "The Bulls". He has a similar criticism against aikido (we trained under the same sensei). While aikido does real stuff, being derived from kenjitsu work it also deals almost exclusively with long range, long fist attacks - at least in the dojos I've trained in.

When they are not bulls, it is trickier, yes?

Brithor: "Anyway, I'm not trying to say that sparring is the only way to go..."

Understood.

Brithor: "If the circumstances are perfect in your training then maybe you can get all the same benefits of adding some kind of sparring, but I doubt it."

I suspect no art has all of the pieces of the combat puzzle.

[Brithlor]

Clearly you have (atleast what I consider) a realistic approach to your training... I guess there are more san soo people like you than I thought :).

Some san soo people (especially my former teacher) had the idea that san soo was basically invincible and that it was offensive to him to learn other martial arts (which is one reason I quit after a few more years of that...).

Just out of curiousity... but with your training in a broad spectrum of martial arts how do fare against people how don't rely on any kind of bridging... like boxers? If you do well against them what martial arts do you feel helped you with that?

[freehand]

Well, when I trained under Al Rubin, who was a master student under Jimmy Woo, I and my favorite workout partner studied aikido. He also studied judo. We had a student who also boxed. One of Al's senior students taught San Soo as well as Kali. Al insisted that we do only San Soo while in his studio, but otherwise had no problems with it.

He insisted that San Soo was the best for fighting that he knew of, but most teachers think their art is the best. He did say things like
"This is no guarantee; it only improves your odds"
"A TKD guy, who spent as much time on his art as you have, will have a better roundhouse kick, but you will know more about throws, So too, will a judo man have better throws than you, but you will kick better."
"If you win a fight, you will have a bloody nose, your favorite shirt will be ripped, and you will probably go to jail."
"There may be some cowboy out there who only has one technique - perhaps a good right hook - and he might beat you with it, if he does it better than you do your defenses."
He called it a complete martial art, because it combined strikes, chin na, throws, and pressure points. He never insisted that it was impossible for another art to know something ours didn't know, (that I recall). How could one know that, anyway?

And even if it had all the broad categories of techniques, that wouldn't mean that there were no ways of training that would teach some of them better or supplement the ways we trained already.

My current kali crowd includes students of San Soo, jujitsu, kenpo, and aikido. We are all interested in bridging; we have techniques which work to finish and control, if only our attacker would be kind enough to let us get our hands on him!

One thing San Soo says, though, is that there is no test for real fighting except a fight. How could I test myself against a boxer? If we box, I cheerfully admit he would win. But if we street fight, and all he knows is boxing, it's unlikely he could handle shins kicks, head butts, back elbows, biting, and such. But I still remember what Al said about that guy out there with the good right hook...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by freehand
Well, when I trained under Al Rubin, who was a master student under Jimmy Woo, I and my favorite workout partner studied aikido. He also studied judo. We had a student who also boxed. One of Al's senior students taught San Soo as well as Kali. Al insisted that we do only San Soo while in his studio, but otherwise had no problems with it.

He insisted that San Soo was the best for fighting that he knew of, but most teachers think their art is the best. He did say things like
"This is no guarantee; it only improves your odds"
"A TKD guy, who spent as much time on his art as you have, will have a better roundhouse kick, but you will know more about throws, So too, will a judo man have better throws than you, but you will kick better."
"If you win a fight, you will have a bloody nose, your favorite shirt will be ripped, and you will probably go to jail."
"There may be some cowboy out there who only has one technique - perhaps a good right hook - and he might beat you with it, if he does it better than you do your defenses."
He called it a complete martial art, because it combined strikes, chin na, throws, and pressure points. He never insisted that it was impossible for another art to know something ours didn't know, (that I recall). How could one know that, anyway?

And even if it had all the broad categories of techniques, that wouldn't mean that there were no ways of training that would teach some of them better or supplement the ways we trained already.

My current kali crowd includes students of San Soo, jujitsu, kenpo, and aikido. We are all interested in bridging; we have techniques which work to finish and control, if only our attacker would be kind enough to let us get our hands on him!

One thing San Soo says, though, is that there is no test for real fighting except a fight. How could I test myself against a boxer? If we box, I cheerfully admit he would win. But if we street fight, and all he knows is boxing, it's unlikely he could handle shins kicks, head butts, back elbows, biting, and such. But I still remember what Al said about that guy out there with the good right hook...

I like al's outlook, except for the bit about no other style having a technique that ss didn't have...

As for sparring the boxer, try mma style sparring.

[Brithlor]

There is no reason why sparring someone (properly ofcourse...) would not bear some resemblance to how the two would fight each other "on the street".

I don't really buy into the idea that if one person is clearly outclassed in a sparring or boxing match that the other person (if he knew how) could fall back on the deadly eye gouges and pressure point strikes to win the fight...

I also disagree that San Soo has every technique from every martial art... There are some things san soo just doesn't train for..such as ground fighting. Also, they WAY people train has a huge influence on the techniques... and no one can train like every martial art... There is a distinct "look" to san soo people just like tai chi or wing chun...

I will admit that san soo has a LOT of variety in their techniques though... more than most. It just seems to lack (or the teachers seem to lack) variety in training methods outside of "free fighting".

[Brithlor]

Just curious, but what Chinese martial arts would your teacher not consider a "complete martial art"?

Every chinese martial art (as far as I know) includes qin na... Most people who study Chinese martial arts say their art includes pressure point striking. Even ones that focus more on throwing still have strikes.

[freehand]

To quote me: "He never insisted that it was impossible for another art to know something ours didn't know, (that I recall)."

Deep sorrow. My first sifu Al, alas, lost his final fight to a dangerous foe: cancer. We will never know how he would respond to these questions.

If an art uses all of the known (to the student and teacher) broad categories of techniques, and has integrated them, then it is complete. How can we know if there is a family of techniques that we don't know about? Besides, some people may use the term "complete" loosely... There is a jujitsu dojo in town at which my daughter trains; I've taken a couple of classes there. They don't kick, but they defend against kicks. They would probably deny that it is a handicap that they are not kickers (I have never heard them claim to be a "complete art", but they might insist that they can deal with any likely scenario).

I am studying kali (with a dash of Jeet Kun Do) because I believe its drilling in bridging strengthens a weak area in my San Soo background. I also appreciate the focus on weapons; while San Soo covers an introductory use of weapons, its focus is on empty hands.

I would never say that eye gouges etc, would *necessarily win the fight for me. I thought I had made that clear in earlier posts on this thread; I apologize if I have not. This point seems to be one which is either easily misunderstood or misrepresented. I cannot spar to test my techniques if many of my techniques cannot be used in the sparring match. There are folks who know nothing but a single punch who can take me out, but if I cannot use the techniques I've trained in, how would we know for sure if I could or could not have won? Can we test an aikido student's skills against a boxer if he is only allowed to box?

This is an entirely different question from whether or not sparring can be a useful training method.

As to which arts are not complete arts, there are many combat-derived sports which do not seem aware of the difference between sport and combat; there were many more of them in America than real combat arts 40 years ago. If you are too young to remember 1960, ask your teacher how many schools in North America taught jujitsu or traditional kung fu then, let alone arts like Systema or Pentjak Silat. There are somewhat more arts available now than there were, back in the day...

Brithlor: "I also disagree that San Soo has every technique from every martial art..."

Brithlor, are you talking to me, or your former San Soo teacher?

[Brithlor]

Sorry to hear about your teacher :(, he was somehow one of the only people in San Soo I had not heard very much about.

"Brithlor: "I also disagree that San Soo has every technique from every martial art..."

Brithlor, are you talking to me, or your former San Soo teacher?"

No one in particular...

"I cannot spar to test my techniques if many of my techniques cannot be used in the sparring match. There are folks who know nothing but a single punch who can take me out, but if I cannot use the techniques I've trained in, how would we know for sure if I could or could not have won? Can we test an aikido student's skills against a boxer if he is only allowed to box?"


I often hear that... but if you are sparring with light or no contact it shouldn't matter at all... Afterall... If I get struck by a fullpower punch to the throat I'm probably not going to care that it wasn't a "deadly" gouge or pressure point strike.

Ofcourse, if you can't hit your sparring partner chances are you won't be able to eye gouge either.

As long as you have the proper equipment, and don't use too much contact you should be able to do every technique you know... and debate afterwards if the strikes you landed were effective or not.

But there is a time and place for each part of training... But I just can't see anyone being able to use all their techniques in a 'street fight' if they've never actually trained against someone resisting and attempting to ACTUALYL hit you... instead of just giving you a punch and letting you do your thing (although I won't deny that it doesn't help).

[freehand]

Brithlor: "I often hear that... but if you are sparring with light or no contact it shouldn't matter at all... Afterall... If I get struck by a fullpower punch to the throat I'm probably not going to care that it wasn't a "deadly" gouge or pressure point strike. "

Y'know, I trained in my first kali school for about five years when they discovered escrima contests (not the old ones, which were rather like the old Chinese contests: Rule one - one fighter against one fighter. There is no Rule 2.) . Their drills changed immediately. The "defanging the snake" (crippling the weapon hand) was replaced with multiple strikes to the head/helmet, because the judges can hear it ring, and it's more dynamic looking, and more likely to get points.

Strikes which would have crippled a real fighter, such as a stick against the wrist or a knife drawn across the biceps tendon, were replaced with flashy, repeated blows which were more likely to "win" in the new context - the sport contest. I lost interest and stopped going, but I eventually moved and found a new teacher, focused on combat.

I think many people who use sparring as their major training method do not realize the limitations they impose upon themselves; these strikes become habitual and ingrained - you fight the way you train.

Heh. The gouges are not deadly in themselves; I can't rip flesh off bones, can you? But your fingers in my eyes will make me blink and tear. How many times can you hit me if I am blind for say, a second?

I do not yet have a strong opinion regarding how useful or necessary sparring is. But I think many students who primarily spar overrate the pounding they take and underrate the movement conditioning they absorb. I believe a superior teacher would guide the students thru some sort of progressive sparring. I have seen begining students thrown into fast, uncontrolled sparring, and they seemed to be learning to flail fast.

Can I benefit from it? Probably, and I am trying to find the right teacher / method / people and fit it into my schedule.

Brithlor: "Ofcourse, if you can't hit your sparring partner chances are you won't be able to eye gouge either. "

Heh. A comment that also applies to all of those who wish to learn dimmak but have not yet learned basic strikes and control.

One of the worst schools I attended was a long fist style in which we were taught a form. Just a form. Every now and then I'd ask the teacher what a particular move meant, and he would demontrate it on his senior student. The move usually looked OK. I never threw a punch at another student, no one ever blocked or even hit an inanimate target. After 3 months I decided I was not *that desperate for martial arts and left.

[SevenStar]

I can't frickin believe it, but here's a woman who is in berkely and only wants to date MA....maybe the thread starter is in her age group.

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=12880

[freehand]

Alas for KFSSchaosmaster, Berzerkely is a good 400 miles or so from Riverside (640 km).

It would be a heckuva commute.

[blooming lotus]

back to the topic...........

did the dude pick up or not ???

[Shaolinlueb]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by blooming lotus
[B]back to the topic...........



i'm guessing probably not. lol

[Brithlor]

I agree that progressive sparring is the way to go.

If you only do controlled sparring with no contact and put a student directly into that they will develop very bad habbits...

If I'm understanding you correctly you would suggest to learn how to properly develop power in your strikes and attacks, and learn defensive moves before heading into full sparring with an opponent... which I entirely agree on.

In wing chun we have many drills such as chi sao before we move onto sparring... And also "cross arm" drills that try to ingrain practical moves for sparring instead of resorting to people simply trying to touch one another and considering that as "beating" the other person. There are a few things I take issue with in Wing Chun to though...

[freehand]

Pretty much what I think right now.

My Chen Taiji teacher has us doing a chin na-only easy sparring, and a little more vigorous push hands, and some faster sparring with limitations to kick/punch stuff.

My kali teacher has had us sparring with just one class of techniques at a time, with the intent to introduce new techniques gradually (to the sparring). We already do many drills, including some lap sau and pak sau.

I'll see what I think in a year or two.

[diego]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
Hi there,

As you will all know, I have been in a wheel chair for a number of years. My nurse Katrina as recently moved overseas. I am in need of female nurses to tend to my needs. They need not be qualified in nursing just as long as they're between the ages of 18 and 23. Applicants should send a copy of their resume and a picture to my email below.

Look forward to hearing from you.

hi e, my name's betty nice too meet you. i hear you sooo sexy and and lol
:)peace

[diego]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I can't frickin believe it, but here's a woman who is in berkely and only wants to date MA....maybe the thread starter is in her age group.

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=12880

i'm not even gonna wonder what you were doing on a MA online pickup service namean....:D

You heard the new Ghostface yet 7?.1