Footwork for moving versus footwork for striking

[KingMonkey]

Is it useful to make this distinction ?

For me I can see the benefits of WC style rootedness when delivering a strike but have always worried about general mobility.
It seems that the principles governing the footwork assume you always need to be able to exert force and transmit power at the expense of speed and adaptability when this may not always be the focus of the moment.

I have now started to cross train in JKD with one of Paul Vunak's top guys to address my worries about not enough aliveness in my training and other aspects of WC I dont like including footwork.
As I suspected I was slow and leaden footed in comparison with the JKD guys. Sure I could go forward fast but not back or side to side.

I have found myself adopting a hybrid style where I move more naturally a la boxing or MT and adopt WC shapes in range and when striking.

So to go back to my main point can we make a distinction, if so how many of you have played with different ways of moving vs WC and what did you find ?

[Gangsterfist]

Perhaps you are maybe stuck and seeing wing chun foot work from its form view. WCK foot work is very dynamic, but its dynamics are very subtle. Angle stepping in straight angled lines at your opponet, triangle stepping around limbs and into the center of an opponet, and to constantly move around your opponet when in trapping range. It takes a long time to realize just how complicated the simple wing chun foot work really is.

However, if JKD or boxing type foot work works better for you then use it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

KingMonkey:

Without going into all the differences between TWC footwork and other wing chun lineage footwork (see the Understanding TWC thread in the archives for details)...

Let me just suggest to you that you're on a good track if you're investigating JKD footwork... because superior fighting skill requires fast, mobile, non-flatfooted footwork - with 50/50 weight distribution and the ability to explode in all directions...and last but not least - the ability to use broken rhythms and speed changes instantly.

[Gangsterfist]

I never wanted to say WCK foot work is the only foot work you should use (hope it didn't sound that way). I agree that cross training other types of foot work definately help your fighting ability for the reasons victor listed. I just wanted to point out that WCK foot work is more dynamic than it seems.

Good luck in your JKD training,
GF

[CHEUNG-WINGCHUN]

I wouldn't get carried away worrying about footwork, even though the wingchun footwork is fairly specific, thinking of it as "rigid" would defeat its purpose.

You want your footwork to be as natural as possible, and very smooth and strong. Thinking about it in a real fight will probably get your a$$ hit. You just have to try and understand the concepts of the wingchun footwork, and what it is trying to acheive (guarding the centre line and gaining maximum power and balance) Think about the PRINCIPLES of the footwork, but dont concentrate on your feet!

On another note, I like to think of this along the lines of Tennis, Do you see tennis players complaining about rigid footwork? they have specific types of movements, but they do what they NEED TO DO to hit that ball! and try to make it as smooth and natural as possible (YOU HAVE TO WHEN THE BALL IS MOVING THAT FAST AT YOU!)

:)

[KingMonkey]

Thanks for the comments guys !

Chuengs-Wingchun.

I love your tennis analogy - have you ever played ?
I have a little and their approach to footwork is right on topic.
Light and up on the toes for changing direction quickly and covering ground and then down low, much more flat footed for striking the ball.

[Gangsterfist]

It can be looked at as flat footed (or on the heels) for strength and stability, on the toes for speed. You need to know how to use both.

Also distance too. Look at some of those JKD guys. If they are in a front stance their closest leg to their opponet will be nearly flat footed, or on the heel. Their back foot will be on their toes, or the front ball of the foot. This gives you more distance to extend your arm for a strike, and you can lean forward a lot faster with that back foot up. Also it gives your opponet a false sense of distance of how far you can actually reach.

Thats not really "wing chun" minded, but it works.

[kj]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
Is it useful to make this distinction ?

Just a different perspective. IMHO, it's more helpful not to make the distinction. To that point, we have a saying "A kick is a step; a step is a kick." Simple, efficient and versatile footwork.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Gangsterfist]

That reminds me of a taiji principle KJ, every step is a kick.

[KingMonkey]

KJ it's a nice sound bite but is it really a good idea.
A question for you. If you made the decision to turn tail and run ie move as quickly and efficiently as possible would you still use your WC 'kick is a step' footwork ?

If the answer's no because you wouldnt move as quickly why would you do so in combat in a circumstance where your intention was to angle to the side and not kick ?

Yes a fight and running away may be slightly different propositions but my point is that kicking and moving are two different activities and hence may benefit from a slightly different approach.

[Gangsterfist]

Here is a simple drill that will show you the difference of foot placement and how it effects kicks.

Get someone to hold a large kick sheild pad. Have them stand in bow and arrow stance holding the kick shield. Stand on their flank and round house kick the shield. Do it two different ways. First try keeping your back foot (your posted foot) flat on the ground and kick as hard as you can. Watch how the person holding the bag moves and listen to how loud of a noise it makes. Now do the same thing but keep your back foot on the ball of your foot (on your toes). The kick may be slightly faster and makes a louder noise on the bag, but the person holding the bag will not be affected as much. That is becuase its all surface damage and does not penetrate as much when your back foot is flat on its heel. When your back foot is on its toes it is more disconnected from the body, taking away penetrating power. When its flat on its heel, the kick may be a bit slower and make less noise on impact, but if affects the person holding the sheild more. It penetrates more and does less surface damage.

Both of them have the advantages/disadvantages, you will have to decide what is good for you.

[TjD]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
KJ it's a nice sound bite but is it really a good idea.
A question for you. If you made the decision to turn tail and run ie move as quickly and efficiently as possible would you still use your WC 'kick is a step' footwork ?

If the answer's no because you wouldnt move as quickly why would you do so in combat in a circumstance where your intention was to angle to the side and not kick ?

Yes a fight and running away may be slightly different propositions but my point is that kicking and moving are two different activities and hence may benefit from a slightly different approach.

running is just a controlled fall.

be falling around in a fight and tell me how you feel the next morning :D


i think the WC footwork is about as fast as its going to get without giving up your root. and its **** fast.

[kj]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
KJ it's a nice sound bite but is it really a good idea.


You have a point. Even great words can beat hollow like a drum. IMHO,in this case it isn't the words that bear importance, rather the meaning. So given my meaning (LOL), yes I do think it's a good idea. :)


A question for you. If you made the decision to turn tail and run ie move as quickly and efficiently as possible would you still use your WC 'kick is a step' footwork ?

Great question! And an excellent lead in. :)

When in fighting range, then Wing Chun footwork (as I know it) makes all the sense in the world. If out of fighting range, then Wing Chun specific footwork (of virtually any variety) makes little to no sense to me. If, for example, running is a present option, then my concern would not be about using Wing Chun footwork. Nor would it be Muay Thai footwork, Taekwondo footwork, or any other kind of footwork other than running footwork. So perhaps we are in agreement at least on this last point.


my point is that kicking and moving are two different activities and hence may benefit from a slightly different approach.

My point is that Wing Chun is designed in such a way that stepping or kicking movements can be used for either, or even both simultaneously. Since it's all the same, there is no overcommitment to a single goal, virtually infinite ability to change and adapt at any moment and regardless of position or completeness of a given movement, and very efficient in terms of movement, energy expended, and impact.

Delving in a little deeper, and in context of fighting range, Wing Chun footwork isn't, a prison. Or at least it shouldn't be, IMHO. To the degree it becomes disabling, rather than enabling, it is improperly understood or applied.

Our footwork is designed to be an efficient yet adaptable way of moving which optimizes and balances offensive needs (dynamically adaptable options for timing efficient kicking, stomping, scraping, sweeping, moving, changing angles, etc.) while simultaneously minimizing one's own vulnerabilities (e.g., due to over-commitment, imbalance, lack of stability, lack of mobility, vulnerability to attack, injury etc.).

This notion of balancing offensive needs and minimization of defensive vulnerabilities is a central thread throughout my entire practice and exploration of Wing Chun. This balance also synchronizes with a martial art designed to optimize everyone’s capabilities, even to the lowest common denominator of the smaller, weaker, or otherwise more physically disadvantaged party.

Another key is that Wing Chun footwork is highly integrated and mutually dependent on other aspects of Wing Chun movement and application; other elements of posture, positioning, operation of the hands, and overall nature of movement. Once we disrupt, abandon, or displace one aspect of the art (whether it be footwork, hand techniques, principles of movement, or just about anything else we can list), the balance of and with all other aspects of the art will be impacted to greater or lesser degrees, as will be the ability to apply as designed. I am not implying that changes are necessarily a good or bad thing. However the result of such deviations will no longer share the same set of benefits which were engineered into Wing Chun by virtue of it's tight integration and overall balance. It always boils down to a tradeoff of advantages and disadvantages, with each individual and unique context as king.

I realize this all still sounds dreadfully abstract. I also realize that my writing style can be equally dreadful and tedious, LOL. My apology on all counts.

Again, perhaps just different experiences and perspectives, and maybe some food for thought. Thanks for the discussion in any event.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Gangsterfist]

Good discussion and good posts so far. I don't think your writing was that abstract KJ, I understood what you were trying to say.

One thing I try to do (this may not seem appealing to you) is not to label things by systems. One thing wing chun says is be effecient. You could probably apply at least 5 wing chun principles to other forms of foot work. So instead of saying I am going to use TKD, JKD, WC, Taiji, CLF, etc foot work I use whats effecient with what my abilities are. The thing about 50/50 foot work is its designed to go anywhere you want with the least amount of movement. You get caught up in a clench and want to hip toss someone, you can drop to a high horse stance and hip toss someone with little movement from the 50/50. Someone comes in with a sweep to your front leg, you can drop back to a cat stance and lift your front leg to dodge the sweep. You won't always stay 50/50, but being 50/50 puts you in a better position to change to a different stance when needed. Its ergonomics. So, I practice all kinds of foot work transistions from 50/50 because you never know when you might need it.

anyways, just some thoughts...

[KingMonkey]

Tjd

I suppose you could call running controlled falls, but really the key word is controlled.
From your previous comments I would have to assume that you dont approve of using gravity for power generation either ?

Lots of different stylists including WCunners have been doing this very effectively for a long time and it doesnt necessarily lead to 'falling around' which implies being very much out of control.


i think the WC footwork is about as fast as its going to get without giving up your root. and its **** fast.
Sure but what I'm suggesting is that maybe we dont have to be slaves to rootedness the whole time.

Kj

Thanks for your response.
My experience in life and martial arts has taught me that often some of the most convincing theories break down in the unforgiving crucible of reality. But like you say context is king.

[kj]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
My experience in life and martial arts has taught me that often some of the most convincing theories break down in the unforgiving crucible of reality.

Indeed. There is no such a thing as a foolproof theory or strategy when the crap hits the fan. Like they say at the carnival, everyone pays their money and takes their chances.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[anerlich]

FWIW, the footwork in TWC and that espoused in Jack Dempsey's "Championship Fighting" have strong similarities.

The mechanics of footwork is something you have to imprint on a preconscious level to be able to move effectively. You need to be concentrate on being in the right spot at the right time, not the mechanics of how to get there. Like driving a car or riding a bike.


Sure but what I'm suggesting is that maybe we dont have to be slaves to rootedness the whole time.

Agreed. You have to have a connection to the ground to hit with power, but in some situations where you want to move quickly, or absorb force, it may be better to break the root.

[Gangsterfist]

Good discussion I am right with you. Infact I had a thread going a few weeks earlier with the same argument about kung fu in general and specifically wing chun. No technology or science behind a martial art is absolute. Wing Chun is not the only system that has structure and science behind it. So people should stop acting like wing chun is the only one out there that does. I love wing chun and train it as my main martial art, and then cross train a few sub arts. I am a hobbyist in one sense (I'm not a warrior or mercenary or use my fighting skills for my job), and in the other I am a realist. If its not practical or effecient to me in a fight, then I won't use it.

I totally agree with you guys about being practical and real.

[TjD]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
Tjd

I suppose you could call running controlled falls, but really the key word is controlled.
From your previous comments I would have to assume that you dont approve of using gravity for power generation either ?

Lots of different stylists including WCunners have been doing this very effectively for a long time and it doesnt necessarily lead to 'falling around' which implies being very much out of control.



what do you mean by using gravity for power generation? dropping my hand on someone isn't going to do much damage unless i help it along.

jumping on someone is a different story (ala enter the dragon ;D) - but in reality this doesnt happen too much.

i do enjoy "dropping" my stance (even going from YGKYM to horse stance) to add a little energy to my low bong sau/gan sau/pak saus and strikes, etc. but this is wildly different than the controlled fall that running is.

i think WCs footwork is explosive and penetrating - good for bridging the gap quickly. running on the otherhand is very fast - ONCE you have the time to speed up. in fact, i'd say WCs footwork accelerates you a lot faster than gravity from say not moving to the first 1-2 seconds of moving. after that running is faster, but after that (if your WC is good) hopefully the fight is over.

so basically what i'm saying is WC footwork is faster in the short term, because we need to be explosive, bridge the gap, penetrate; while falling type footwork like running is better for going long distances fast. so it's definatley not worth giving up your root.

[KingMonkey]

What do I mean ?

The famous Jack Dempsey falling step would be a good example, and you go on to describe dropping your stance to add energy to your gaans etc so I think you know what I mean.

i do enjoy "dropping" my stance (even going from YGKYM to horse stance) to add a little energy to my low bong sau/gan sau/pak saus and strikes, etc. but this is wildly different than the controlled fall that running is.
The mechanics, circumstance and goals may be different but the basic principle is the same. And really the main point I wanted to make was that even if we want to classify some types of movement as 'controlled falls' that doesnt make them automatically bad and doesnt automatically lead to something uncontrolled.

[wchunman]

right you are right about not being able to go back in wc but in a fight you dont want to go backwards you want to go sideways or forward. going back is putting you off balance and lets your attacker have more control of you. right you can can back in kick boxing and other m/arts but only time you really want to be going away from attacker is when you are running

[Keng Geng]

The footwork is not for striking, it's for moving. Twisting is for striking.

[Ironwind]

Originally posted by Keng Geng
The footwork is not for striking, it's for moving. Twisting is for striking.

True, but from quick foot work their are kickss than can be delivered with out twisting.

[TjD]

Originally posted by Ironwind


True, but from quick foot work their are kickss than can be delivered with out twisting.

even with these i think you want to put some twist in it :)

[Keng Geng]

Every strike, including a kick, requires a twist. A straight kick is not as straight as one might believe.

[Gangsterfist]

The only constant truths about kicking are:

1) They must extend their body (leg) at you to hit you.

2) They have to post on one leg (unless its an airial attack).

That is why you would chamber the kick first, just in case you have to change the kick according to your opponets movements and footwork. Because a kick is a bit more committed of an attack than a punch is.

[anerlich]

Every strike, including a kick, requires a twist. A straight kick is not as straight as one might believe.

I can see that, though for some techs the twist might be on a axis other than vertical.

I don't agree that stepping is only for moving and not striking. Incorporating a step with most strikes, especially those that most describe as "straight line" attacks (even if at some level they "twist"), seems to increase power for just about everybody.

I guess you could argue that the step gets you moving, and then the linear movement into the target augments the striking movement.

While it may be technically correct depending on your definition, I don't think it helps to try to mentally, let alone physically, disconnect footwork and striking, except perhaps for students having specific power generation problems that may benefit from a short period of isolation drills or exercises.

[anerlich]

so basically what i'm saying is WC footwork is faster in the short term, because we need to be explosive, bridge the gap, penetrate; while falling type footwork like running is better for going long distances fast. so it's definatley not worth giving up your root.

So why don't sprinters, and pro football, basketball and tennis players, all of whom except the first need explosive movement in random directions, use WC footwork rather than that slowa$$ old running? Why do pro boxers use the falling step? You think with all that money at stake those sports scientists wouldn't have researched this?

WC ain't magic. Everybody in these all these disciplines is bound by the same principles and limitations of physics and anatomy.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by anerlich
I don't agree that stepping is only for moving and not striking. Of course you don't.


I don't think it helps to try to mentally, let alone physically, disconnect footwork and striking, The separation must exist in order for there to be power.

[anerlich]

Of course you don't.

Indeed I don't, but why "of course"?


The separation must exist in order for there to be power.

Could you elaborate on your reasoning here? I can buy that you should be able to generate power without moving to be able to maximise power generation while moving, but I can't see how the separation is essential or always desirable, or that you'll always be able to stop moving to generate that power in the middle of a defense situation.

[TjD]

Originally posted by anerlich


So why don't sprinters, and pro football, basketball and tennis players, all of whom except the first need explosive movement in random directions, use WC footwork rather than that slowa$$ old running? Why do pro boxers use the falling step? You think with all that money at stake those sports scientists wouldn't have researched this?

WC ain't magic. Everybody in these all these disciplines is bound by the same principles and limitations of physics and anatomy.

you didnt read my post. you can get moving faster with running than with WC footwork. however for that quick start that you need in a fight WC footwork is where its at.

if you look at the first step or two of a sprinter/football player you'll see a lot more similarities. of course, there are differences as they can get their center of gravity lower, which makes pushing off the ground easier (having our hands on the ground might be a bad idea in a fight).

[anerlich]

you didnt read my post. you can get moving faster with running than with WC footwork. however for that quick start that you need in a fight WC footwork is where its at.

Actually, I did read your post. Like what you say above, it's somewhat contradictory. You can get moving faster with running, but you need WC footwork for a quick start. So which is it?

[TjD]

Originally posted by anerlich


Actually, I did read your post. Like what you say above, it's somewhat contradictory. You can get moving faster with running, but you need WC footwork for a quick start. So which is it?

You can get moving faster with running, but you need WC footwork for a quick start.

thats it. mabye i phrased it wrong. with running you have a higher max speed.

[Gangsterfist]

wing chun foot work is so widely debated you will never get an exact answer of what is TWC, modern WC, esoteric Lineage WC.

The thing about gravity is that it moves the body the fastest way possible. If you want to strike someone low with your fist (like in the knee) you DO NOT kneel down, you drop down dead weighted and let gravity pull you down. Its such a fast movement too.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by anerlich
I can't see how the separation is essential or always desirable, It's a synergistic approach to moving. But you need to first understand each component. Then combine it all together, not simultaneously, but by bringing in each component at the best time to deliver the most power. Most people simply add the punch when the back foot steps in. That's okay, but limited. There's so much more to be understood in that movement.

[russellsherry]

hi guys i see no difference in this, look if a guy is trying to attack, move forward to the side , and hit him in wing chun forward engery forward footwork same thing footwork should be like wheels punches like arrows , if fighting someone with boxing like a jkd man we might be at a disadvantige, be if no gloves punch though his guard if he moves hit him , peace russellsherry

[Phenix]

Isnt it a Footwork for moving is also a striking ready footwork?
whether one strikes or not depend on if one intend or not? :confused:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Phenix:

Right you are. But where have you been ? Vacation ?

Lots us interesting stuff discussed on many threads lately...

[Gangsterfist]

When I train Taiji, the philosophy behind it is every step is a kick in form work. When you take it out of the form and apply it realistically, it translates into something more like, every step can be a kick if you choose to kick. Even stepping heel to toe first on someone's foot would be considered a kick by taiji principle.

Now, when you look at it from a wing chun perspective every step should always be able to be a kick. This is because you are always 50/50 with all of your weapons available (theoretically speaking of course).

You can distinguish between the two, but its really not needed and a waste of time (hahaha thats the wing chun in me speaking right there).

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Phenix:

Right you are. But where have you been ? Vacation ?

Lots us interesting stuff discussed on many threads lately...


Hi Victor,

I went to Maui for week.
Study with those old Chan masters' and meditate while wave surfing! :D

See, movement and stillness is one. :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
When I train Taiji, the philosophy behind it is every step is a kick in form work.....

Everyone has to move Cog and body weight every step right?
ok if you dont move it you draaggg it. :D

So, since WCK is a holistic art. there is no reason to move the Cog, the weight..... this way for one thing and that way for another thing.

IMHO, WCK is not a static sequencial stuffs. it is an art of doing 10000x things in one moves stuffs. So, every move of Cog,.... weight... can be used for generate jing. believe it or not. One cannot brake the flow while wave surfing. JUST FLOW! no brake.

This is very Zen, because via small flower one can see the Open and space and lively and dynamic. ( space here is not that physics space define by 1 foot 2 feet...those statics stuffs.. ) via a step everything can be found.....


The question is ofcause. If one has to move, then stop and do this and that to get ready for strike. or move for only strike....
these all will be characterized as off center or balance.
the world is not going to stop or turn different way because one wants to strike or move.

As in wave surfing, No one can stop the wave to perform flow and "strike". But one can flow and "strike" with the wave surf by making use of the wave's energy. then only then one is one with the wave and one is Jung or balance or center.

The bottom line then become can one fajing with all condition and using every part of the body?


I think this is a great question. and this question arise because there is a dis-continuity and blind spot on how to fajing or apply force interm of the body mechanics process and the environment... get back to the cross bow ......

I never believe in the time space.... static theory as one can see in different art trying to explain things.... One can't surf wave with those time space theory. one surf with alertness and awareness and make the best use of the wave. Physics is just a model. We can tell the BJJ guy to stop and we change footwork from moving foot work to striking footwork .....


Just somethought.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Phenix


Everyone has to move Cog and body weight every step right?
ok if you dont move it you draaggg it. :D

So, since WCK is a holistic art. there is no reason to move the Cog, the weight..... this way for one thing and that way for another thing.

Well said.


IMHO, WCK is not a static sequencial stuffs. it is an art of doing 10000x things in one moves stuffs. So, every move of Cog,.... weight... can be used for generate jing. believe it or not. One cannot brake the flow while wave surfing. JUST FLOW! no brake.

This is one of the all time great analogies. Just go with the flow is the basis for any real martial art prowess as opposed to generating external force.


This is very Zen, because via small flower one can see the Open and space and lively and dynamic. (space here is not that physics space define by 1 foot 2 feet...those statics stuffs.. ) via a step everything can be found.....


The question is of cause. If one has to move, then stop and do this and that to get ready for strike. or move for only strike....
these all will be characterized as off center or balance.
the world is not going to stop or turn different way because one wants to strike or move.

As I approach a weight of 250 pounds, that's less and less true due to the laws of physics. :p


As in wave surfing, No one can stop the wave to perform flow and "strike". But one can flow and "strike" with the wave surf by making use of the wave's energy. then only then one is one with the wave and one is Jung or balance or center.

Youth is wasted on the Jung. Or is it the other way around?


The bottom line then become can one fajing with all condition and using every part of the body?

I think this is a great question. and this question arise because there is a dis-continuity and blind spot on how to fajing or apply force in terms of the body mechanics process and the environment... get back to the cross bow ......

I never believe in the time space.... static theory as one can see in different art trying to explain things.... One can't surf wave with those time space theory. One surfs with alertness and awareness and makes the best use of the wave. Physics is just a model. We can tell the BJJ guy to stop and we change footwork from moving foot work to striking footwork .....

Nice how you've perceived a teaching moment within the confines of a nonsense question. We may as well ask what is the difference between a moving fist and a striking fist. :rolleyes:

Regards,