How do you learn and how do you practice your applications?

[Octavius]

How do you learn and how do you practice your applications? Do you have set portions of class times where you break up into pairs and work on them, or are you shown the techniques in class but for the most part have to find time outside of regular class hours (and a willing and available partner) to practice them? I'd especially be interested from those people who have classes only once or twice a week (e.g. weekends) in how you appropriate your time for applications training. Thanks.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by Octavius
How do you learn and how do you practice your applications?


We learn our applications (and principles) in class against a partner. We then practice them in either sparring, grappling or pushing hands where appropriate.

If you are just shown a application or just work one out for yourself you will never really "own" it. Things have to be pounded in and tested under stress before you really "know" anything.

[No_Know]

Learn in class then practice based on everything I understand to be relevant to technique that allows best reationand effect.

Find chores that drill the resistance into me. Sweeping with a broom can improve your cloud hands, but so can Latin Dancing or balet. Open a self closing heavy door with Part the wild horses mane.

Imagine walls of air. -by Ernie Moore Jr.

[8gates]

No_Know:

Open a self closing heavy door with Part the wild horses mane.

Very Cool! I do that... :)

[gazza99]

Ok I have a few years exp. in teaching people applications, here is what ive found works best...

1.First get the movement down solo correctly (or as close as you can get in reasonable amount of time). Doing it very very slowly a few times before rushing through will ensure it is smooth when sped up.

2. Get a partener and apply the movement slowly against his rehearsed attack to get the right feel for what you are trying to acomplish. It helps if everyone in the class has experienced the instructor doing it to them so they know what it feels like and can provide the student feedback.

3. Increment speed, intent, force, and then move into an unrehearsed format.....rinse and repeat. (proper reaction based training is a whole other chapter long post, i frankly dont have time to get into it now.)

4. Its also important that not to many aspects of a technique be addressed at once, and generally less is more. X technique could be a striking/intercepting one to start. Once that is learned, then the break or joint lock within the movement is taught, then the throw...etc...

hope that helps someone...

regards,

Gary

[Water Dragon]

1. Learn the technique
2. Practice with a compliant partner
3. Learn the form if appropriate
4. more partner work/isolated sparring
5. sparring

I don't understand why so many CMA guys learn form first. Then after they learn the technique they have to go back and relearn the form correctly because they missed something vital.

Learn the technique BEFORE the form and you automatically have the proper intention. This save me about 2-3 months training time per technique.

[gazza99]

"I don't understand why so many CMA guys learn form first. Then after they learn the technique they have to go back and relearn the form correctly because they missed something vital.

Learn the technique BEFORE the form and you automatically have the proper intention. This save me about 2-3 months training time per technique."

Amen! I liken a form to a catelog of college classes. You can memorize the catelog and course descriptions, but you skill havent taken the individual classes yet!

Gary R.

[No_Know]

"Amen! I liken a form to a catelog of college classes. You can memorize the catelog and course descriptions, but you skill havent taken the individual classes yet!

Gary R."

Perhaps it is more at, In the college that is Kung-Fu there are many degrees that can be attained. There are many courses that make-up a degre. A kung-Fu form might be likened to the courses. Signing-up for a course does not get you proficiency in that course. Study and attending classes of that course go into proficiency. With each class techniques are reviewed or introduced. You will understand or be more comfortable with some techniques than others. Whatever you might believe, perhaps all of the course techniques could use refining.

The course is like a form. The techniques are like the studies in the classes of the course.

[8gates]

Forms are to get familar with the footwork and handwork of the style....and blending of indivisual movements, together. I , also practice indiviual movements rather then the form, in regards to self defense applications. I've always prefered learnng Tai Chi this way, as well as other arts like, Shaolin Kempo and Aikido... but thats just me....

My 2 Cents...

Be Happy Today
:)

[SPJ]

It is a question of skill vs knowledge.

I was asked to practice Zhuang Gong for a long time. I then was told to practice basic forms for a longer time. I mean for years.

One day my teacher would tell me what the applications are for the moves. The truth of the matter, I was asked to think for myself what and how to apply for the moves that I was very skillful for.

And at second level, I was told to think of a countermove for my moves.

At the third level, I was asked to think of a move to counter the countermove.

The 3rd step would correct the weakness of the first move.

This is a process of Zen meditation.

I was told to practice a lot and think or analyze a lot.

A lot of time, if I was told one application of each move, I have to come up 2 more applications.

You have to create to be a artist. Thus the name is martial arts.

[No_Know]

You do martial arts. I like Kung-Fu.~

[SPJ]

When you practice moves or moves in a sequence (forms or routines), you are aquiring skills. You practice with study partners in a "planned" sparring or free sparring.

Your skills are your Gong Fu. That takes time. You know what once you master it, you still practice over and over and over--. That is Gong Fu.

On the other hand, study of applications of moves needs study and study and study---.

You discover new apps for you moves.
With the same apps, you discover or vary the moves.

That is a Zen process. It is a two way streets.

Moves and techniques are based actual combat and survival. You summarize all the moves down to basic moves (the forms).
You may expand from your basic moves and create new ones.

Again it is a Zen of Wushu. It is a science based on human anatomy, physiology, kinetics, physics, tactics. stretagy and most important of all life philisophy.

Shaolin: you sow what you reap. You hit me. I hit you back.

Daoists: Use stillness to defeat movements. Use gentleness to defeat hardness. Use a 4 ounces to defeat a thousand tons!

Ba Ji: Give up the distance to get close.

Wing Chun (Wing Tsun): guarding the center line.

Ba Gua: You walk around to avoid the front.

on and on.

Wing Tsun will not let you inside. Ba Gua is happy to leave inside and walk to outside.

Shaolin is harder and hardest. Iron to Jing Gong.
Tai Ji: softer and softer and borrow your force to use against you.

They are all called Chinese Martial Arts (Wushu). It is Gong Fu. It is tactics and stretagy. It is medicine. It is science. It is pholisophy. on an on.

Humbly yours.

[Walter Joyce]

I remember being in the hall at Harvard Law School one day and an older professor was greeting a new younger professor. (I did my undergrad work there, went to law school elsewhere.)

The older said to the younger, remember the rule of thumb, when you're young its better to read more than you write.

True story.

Think about it.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

It is so subtle, so simple.. that i missed it for 10 years.. but, 4 ounces does indeed deflect 1000 pounds.. The vast majority if Taiji applications are perceived incorrectly, most people assume that there will be a "fight".. that is unnecessary.. almost everything is evident in your opponent's feet, including the outward evidence of intent.. the inward evidence can be felt through touch..

The opponent's attack is a gift, it is all you need to uproot and unbalance them.. recall those times when you were off-balance, frozen between falling and not falling, every fiber of your body straining to regain your footing.. uproot your oponent, unbalance them to this point, then.. they are simply at your mercy, frozen or wobbling in an attempt to stabilize themselves.. your actions at this point should reflect their intentions.. in friendly matches gently push.. for brutish aggressors a well intended lesson in negative reinforcement..

It is so subtle, so simple.. the most profound lessons are in the simple basics.. balance and DanTien control, both supported by proper breathing.. Qinna and forceful manipulations are options mostly beneficial for "negative reinforcement", but largely unnecessary.. a simple but profound training method is offered Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, do your standing meditations and stationary Qigongs (silk-reeling, etc...) standing on bricks that are stood on end.. set up a pattern of bricks stood on end and practice walking from brick to brick.. when you get good at this, stack two bricks end on end.. you will develop a sensitivity to balance so acute that you will sense your opponent's imbalance before they do.. and that is the door to controlling your opponent.. even the most gifted fighters routinely require resistance to maintain full balance, remove some resistance, sense the imbalance and act on it..

Sorry, i'm rambling.. be well....

[Kaitain(UK)]

Some thoughts on how I learn and practice application

the form - ingrain the structures and movements
standing post - give them substance
imho these two go hand in hand

fixed pushing hands - begin to feel and sense without panic
I don't believe this should be started until part 1 (I study Yang style) has been learned - no sense in using incorrect structures.

freeform pushing hands - watch and feel what happens
This is where all of my application comes in - hours and hours of freeform pushing hands, stopping whenever something different happens or where there is a feeling that something else might work. Effectively switching between conscious and subconscious to gain more choices, and then letting those choices settle into the subconscious again. I work at varying speeds and intensities - it flows up and down like a sine wave. Lots of fun :)

I also mix in close quarter hand drills that are more external - getting the shapes right. I'd say these drills arent traditional taiji as they involve attaching and unattaching - I train them because they help to heighten intention in the activity, and the incoming energy is harder. It's a nice way to work the yin/yang into my hands - rapidly switching between the two.

Then softening and flowing these shapes - the unattaching becomes less and less until it no longer occurs (yet the feeling is different to someone who has never worked these drills but has worked pushing hands). We developed these drills to address what we saw as a shortfall in our training - pushing hands trains a lot of listening and stickiness but we felt the need for an intermediate format between pushing hands and free form sparring. Certainly this was true for our school.

From these drills I then start letting application come through - there's 8 different drills that we blend into one another as we like, and then we launch attacks as the opportunity is given, deal with them accordingly, then pause and analyse (or flow through). Often I'll stop and work on something that didn't feel right - basically the movement that came out wasn't the best available. Switch back to the conscious mind and try different movements and feeling - once I'm happy with the new choices I will drill those back into the subconscious again...

We don't do any applications to fixed attacks - I find that unless the attack is correctly executed with the right force and intention and angle, the application isn't appropriate and feels laboured. However, we do work things like ward off to an incoming force - but the purpose is not to give an application of ward off, but to work on the feel of rooting and peng etc

I hope that made sense :)

Paul