Are MMA still cross-training...

[rogue]

or are they now their own hybrid art?:confused:

[IronFist]

I see what you're saying. Like if you go to a MMA gym and you learn thai boxing and BJJ, can that be considered its own art?

Good question. I dunno.

I haven't seen any MMA competitions in a while, but don't they all pretty much do the same stuff now anyway? I mean it's not like diverse styles like TKD vs. Judo or whatever it was like in the beginning of UFC, right?

[DragonzRage]

Systems such as Shooto are hybrid styles, but I would still call MMA in general crosstraining. There's no specific system in MMA. To become proficient in MMA you usually would first train bjj/wrestling and boxing/muay thai separately before figuring out how to make those styles flow well together. So its still crosstraining rather than doing a "hybrid style", altho the way fighters crosstrain has definitely become more systematic.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by IronFist
I see what you're saying. Like if you go to a MMA gym and you learn thai boxing and BJJ, can that be considered its own art?

Good question. I dunno.

I haven't seen any MMA competitions in a while, but don't they all pretty much do the same stuff now anyway? I mean it's not like diverse styles like TKD vs. Judo or whatever it was like in the beginning of UFC, right?

fighters found a formula that worked and went with it. you don't see pure strikers or pure grapplers anymore, other than maybe yoshida and karo. within striking and grappling, you will see combos like boxing/wrestling, muay thai/bjj, muay thai/wrestling, etc. so It's still somewhat mixed, but nothing like the original UFCs.

[BlueTravesty]

The arts are kept seperate at most MMA gyms it would seem. The formula seems to be congealing though, but perhaps that's just my view as an "outsider" (I respect MMA, but for the time being I train TMA.)

The basic formula seems to be Striking Art/ Grappling Art, with the obvious pattern being that the arts involved are almost always ones that compete full contact in their game. There are quite a few MMA proponents that practice Grappling (usually BJJ), Boxing (for punches) and Muay Thai (for Kicks.) which seems to be something of a Holy Trinity for some in those circles. Just a thought.

This is Captain Obvious, signing off.

[qeySuS]

I think in the vast majority of cases, all the different arts are studied seperately and then brought together in a seperate "fight class" of sorts. I'd call it crosstraining.

[SevenStar]

Where have you been, man?

[SPJ]

There are 3 types of fighting, The fighting to defend. The fighting to restrain, The fighting to attack(to hurt or kill). Punches and kicks are stretching your arms and legs, even infant inside mother's womb may do that. Grappling is to restrain.
Facts: To defend is easy to learn. To attack is difficult, you have to bypass the opponent's defense. To grapple is most difficult, you need more precisions, you have to aquire the time and the opportunity (Der Gi Der Shi).

If you are a civilian, you learn the first. If you are a police or a soldier, you learn the last 2.

Question, how to defend, if somebody punch your nose with his right fist?
You Tiao. (Ba Ji, Tong Bei)
You Gua. (Ba Ji)
You Zhang. (Ba Ji; Tai Ji)
You dodge. (Praying Mantis, western boxing)
You walk. (Ba Gua)
You go low and punch his abdomen or sweep his legs. (Shaolin)
You Bon Sao or Tan Sao (Wing Chun)
You --- on and on
There are more than 1000's ways to defend. Learn Wushu to know how. If your MMA do not teach how to defend, that MMA is not Wushu.

Please refer to the book "A winner's guide to life,meditation, and martial arts" www.1stbooks.com. This book has defense stretagy thruout the book. See if your MMA teaching any of those in the book.

Humbly yours;

[Unmatchable]

you should get good or at least descent in one range before cross training. Most mma guys come from grappling or kickboxing backgrounds so they don't start with everything at once like some recent clubs advocate.

[SPJ]

There are 4 catogries of techniques in Wushu. The hitting (punch and kick, Da and Ti), the throwing (Suai), the tripping to fall (Dei) and Qin Na (grappling).

All schools of Wushu contains all of them. Why worry mixing grappling and Thai Quan (kickboxing)? They are done deals for thousands of years. When you have restrained (grappling) the opponent's arm, you may punch and kick (Thai) away. When you are close enough, you start with Qin Na (grappling) and you Suai and Dei.

Cross training is good thing. They provide you alternative solutions to your Wushu problems other than you main training.

Again this is neither the first.

Sung first emporer (Tai Tzu) combined all the good Wushu ideas up to that time and created Tai Tzu Chan Quan (Long boxing). He is considered the forefather of closer time Wushu.

Wang Lang combined 18 Jia's (Nei Wai or what have you) and created Praying Mantis.

Chen Wang Tin combined all the good Wushu's from Ming Dynasty and created even closer time Tai Ji Quan.

You know what I combined all my Wushu learnings and called it Wu Ji Quan.

We all apologied to have mix and cross trained ourselves for over 2000 years.


Humbly yours;

[red5angel]

why should it matter? Or is this yet just one more thing we martial artists should be arguing about?

[Pork Chop]

Well I do think it brings up some interesting questions:

Does the concept of breaking up h2h fighting into different ranges, playing percentages, evaluating your strong & weak ranges, and getting specific training to improve 1 or more ranges automatically qualify MMA as a seperate martial art?

By that standpoint MMA is all martial arts; but all martial arts don't necessarily classify as MMA.

Splitting up fighting into ranges isn't original to MMA.
Kung Fu does it, as do other arts.

I think MMA is more of a mindset & a concept; not a doctrine of specific techniques.

Sat through 4 of the early KOTC events, 4 Gladiator's Challenges, 1 Pride, and 2 Extreme Fighting challenge events on dvd in the last 2 weeks.

You'd be suprised how many of the guys were TKD blackbelts/instructors who trained grappling.

Grappling is not always BJJ, but it usually trains to deal with BJJ.

Judo, Sambo, BJJ, wrestling, shootfighting, pankrase, muay thai, boxing, TKD, and even kung fu were represented.

The only constant was that successful competitors knew what their strength was- what their main background was, and trained hard on the other ranges to balance themselves out.

Even if the school claimed a prepackaged mix of arts, they still divided their time between range specific specialized training.

Is it considered a separate martial art if it follows 1 methodology?
Even if it's mostly a collection of range specific training; along with some all-inclusive training?



FYI after watching all of that; Zinoviev, Bang Ludwig, Ralph Gracie, and Rampage are total PIMPS. Falkner's got no reason to be ashamed of losing a MMA debut to Zinoviev; he beat Mario friggin Sperry.

[Unmatchable]

alot of mma guys are very anti traditional and don't want anything to do or even be associated with traditional martial arts. If you think about it they cross train but only in sport type styles that are geared toward spectacle events/competitions.

[CrippledAvenger]

I do a traditional art and I don't want to be associated with nine-tenths of what passes for "Traditional" these days. :rolleyes:

Belt factories, no pressure testing, unrealistic applications, oral myths told as truths, and non-existant conditioning... If just a few of these issues were actually dealt with by the TMA community, you'd see a lot more support for TMAs in the competive circles.
After all, You can't expect someone to respect you for something you haven't demonstrated.

That being said, there is pleanty of MMA types who have respect for tradition and traditional arts. Muay Thai is highly traditional as is Judo. My Vale Tudo coach uses kempo in his striking. And to top it off, Shuai Chiao is gaining a lot of respect in our class because we're actually training to fight.

It's all about backing up your claims.

[Pork Chop]

o yah, kempo and kyokushin were represented too... mah bad.

not THAT uncommon to see people fighting in gis or traditional thai mongkol (spelling for the arm & headbands)...

It's not the tradition they have problem but the baggage and the b.s....

A few even still practise kata, but proportionally, not 90 to 100% of training time.

I don't know a single person who's studied "non-spectacle-oriented-TMA" and hasn't run into some pencil necked ego maniac who is quick to criticize &/or bark orders (with his assistant instructor certification); but would pizz himself if he ever had to fight.

[rogue]

why should it matter? Or is this yet just one more thing we martial artists should be arguing about?

Why? Because you may be seeing the birth of several new arts. This is the first time that we are able to actually watch a large section of the fighting arts community cross-train, pressure test, evolve and possibly become unique schools of fighting. I'm not up to date on the MMA scene and it's various training methods
so I don't know if most succesful MMA people are training disrete arts and cobbling them together or training in an art that decends from several arts but which are now fully integrated.

[Vash]

rogue has taken the correct, trapped it in a flying triangle, and ended the match with a seiken oi tsuki to the larynx.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
I do a traditional art and I don't want to be associated with nine-tenths of what passes for "Traditional" these days. :rolleyes:

Belt factories, no pressure testing, unrealistic applications, oral myths told as truths, and non-existant conditioning... If just a few of these issues were actually dealt with by the TMA community, you'd see a lot more support for TMAs in the competive circles.
After all, You can't expect someone to respect you for something you haven't demonstrated.

That passes off as traditional? I thought that passes off as Mcdojo, Bullshido, etc.?

[SevenStar]

I think you read his post wrong...

[qeySuS]

Where have you been, man?

Assuming that was meant for me :) (couldn't see it directed at anyone else). I'm around, lurk this board from time to time, i'm in USA right now actually training BJJ :o

[SevenStar]

Cool - where at?

[qeySuS]

I'm at Chris Brennans again (spent 3 months living at his school back in 2002). Just on a travelers visa, been here for 2 months, got one more left :)

[Pork Chop]

wow chris brennan's good :)
lookin forward to seein yah in kotc qeysus