push hands with girls

[Tainan Mantis]

A question for taiji schools that have free sparring with girls.

In push hand free sparring the palms often times are placed on the opponents chest to push.

So if you spar with a girl what do you do in this case.

I only see girls learning pushhands exercise where there is no push on the chest.

[Kumkuat]

you put your hand on her chest and push.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

They make "chest protectors" for women which are used mainly for sparring.. the women in my class have agreed that the learning process is enhanced by realistic situations and it is not an issue.. if there is a question of "selective targeting" i intervene and counsel the offender about responsibility and integrity, further indiscretions could result in dismissal.. only one such situation has occurred and was resolved without incident..

The real question is "intention", if everyone is intent on furthering their skills at Taiji, this issue will never arise.. more often than not i see the males snap-back from accidental contact..

Be well....

[blooming lotus]

I expect no special consideration as a woman..I'm sure alot of others feel the same ;) :p

[SPJ]

Shoulders are the roots. The elbows are mid sections. The wrists are end sections. Tai Ji Push Hands involve "uprootings". You position your front feet between the opponent's 2 feet. You are close to his center of gravity (1st step). It is called walking Jin. You create an advantage by walking into a new position, You control his shoulders by padding the shoulder or grabbing his upper arm. You make the opponent off his feet (2nd step of uprooting). You push or pull laterally, upward then downward, left first then right or vice verse.

At first you contact the arms or shoulders or place one arm under his arm pit, You move to one direction to make certain the opponent oppose your direction and then you suddenly go the same direction. Tai Ji maneuver level 1. (To go to the left, you go to the right first. vice versa. To go upward, you go downward, vice versa).

You may be chest to chest, or pushing shoulders, upper arms, ribsides, Huh huh, not so much pushing chest at all.

Please refer to "A winner's guide to life, meditation and martial arts" www.1stbooks.com

Humbly yours;

[Tainan Mantis]

Kumquat,
It is ok with the female students to push their chest all the time?
The female breast is a bit sensitive, I think it would hurt most women.

Bob,
I thought about the chest protector.
I imagined a conversation something like this.

"We have this chest protector for you if it bothers you to have men pushing against your chest..."

The males"snap back"

It seems like you ave a bunch of mature people in the room.

The bad guy won't snap back though.
I think your approach is best for a comfortable atmosphere though.

Blooming,
I wouldn't have guessed you are a women from your handle.
Thanks for chiming in.
I imagine that when people sign up for taiji they don't know much about what they are getting themselves into.

Many people take taiji for health and well mind, not getting handled all over the place.

So I am thinking that there should be a class for Taiji and then one for push hands

SPJ,
You say the shoulder is the root?

I thought the root was lower than that.
Maybe my skill is not top notch, but I notice that when the chest is open a push there has good effect.

Also, I often start contact with a punch to the nose, it is easy to sink to the opponent's chest from there.

[scotty1]

I had to push hands with women at a recent seminar, which I've never done before. And yes we do use a lot of straight pushes to the chest which were not appropriate (I think) to do on women as you would basically be placing your hands on their breasts and pushing.

Now I'm no woman, but I'm guessing that would hurt a woman more than a man because of the sensitivity. Blessing and a curse, eh? :)

I guess it depends on what the partners are comfortable with.

SPJ - "Huh huh, not so much pushing chest at all."

You never push straight on the chest if it's open?

[blooming lotus]

Tai ji is an everyday X 2 part of life for alot of women in China and around the world...we're not as vulnerable as you guys would like to think...remember...this is a gentle art in practice and sex just isn't a factor ;)

[SPJ]

Yin Sou Zhang (lead head palm): you fake a punch to the nose to lead the opponent to block your punching hand. You turn your hand to grab the opponent's blocking wrist. This is widely used in Tong Bei and many other Wushu.
In contrast, Tai Ji practitioner always leave the chest wide open to invite an attack. You then close your door (Chun Men) by moving your steps to the right or the left of the opponent. You then raise your forearm to contact (Zhang), stick (Nei) and follow (Suei). Your moves are mostly in circles (of the waist, shoulder, elbow and wrists). Your steps are cross walk (Chie Xin). You never walk straight back or forward. You seldom do a straight punch. Therotically, you may start with Yin Sou Zhang as many other Wushu. True Tai Ji practitioner usually starts with waiting with chest open. The idea is you start with Wu Ji in stillness. The opponent starts the move or punch, he starts the Tai Ji. The punch is Yang, The exposed areas (the rest of the arm and the body is wide open) is Yin. You go to his Yin.

[SPJ]

The origin of Tai Ji Jin is from the waist. Every Tai Ji move is that if you move, all of your body parts move. If you are still, you are all still. Your steps move first, your waist, your shoulder, your elbow, your wrist all move at the same time. So your Jin is rooted in feet, your Qi in Dan Tian. Qi flows from Dan Tian to the fingers. Jin travels from feet, waist, shoulder, elbow, wrist to fingers. Force of Push hands are mostly from postioning close to the opponent's center of gravity (Which is between his 2 feet) and turning of the waist (if iit is lateral movements).

The arm is like branch of a tree. The shoulder is root section (Gen Jie), elbow is mid (Chung Jie) and the wrist is end section (Zhung Jie). There are in reference for where you contact and control the opponen't limbs. The most important is control of shoulder. The opponent may not use his arm effectively if his shoulder is controlled by you. You control both of his upper arms, you may swing him anyway you want (up, down, left or right). You need uprooting from his center of gravity by positioning and make him off his feet then swing.

This is main study of Tai Ji Push hands for controlling the shoulder, upper arm, elbow, lower arm and wirst. In practice, you consider the inflexibility of the joints for control.

You may push chest if one of your foot is on the other side of his body, You may push his back, if one of your foot is in front of the opponent's foot. The opponent would fall. This called Dei Fa (tripping to fall). This is widely used in all schools of Wushu.
Tai Ji Pushing Chest do occurr. Talk about it later.

[SPJ]

Tai Ji attacks come in many forms. Pushing Chest is o.k.
However, for most senarios of Tai Ji fightings. If you want to use 2 hands to control one of the opponent's arm, you have to be outside of his arm (Wai Men). Mostly you stay on the outside of the opponent's arms. Most Tai Ji attacks or neutralization start from the outside of the opponent's arm.

Why? The opponent may not use the other hand to reach you easily, while you control one of his arm from the outside. If your opponent is proficient in Tai Ji or any other Wushu, Chest is always protected. If not, push or Jih, Anh, Guo away.

Please refer to the book "The treasure book of Chinese martial arts" www.1stbooks.com. There will be more discussions.

Humbly yours;

[Liokault]

SPJ is going to be the second ever person I put on my ignore list and hes only on 15 posts.

I used to worry about hitting women in the chest, then I asked a woman what she thought (mostly from the embarissment of catching a breast side of it). She told me not to worry about it and just carry on as normal.

[SPJ]

Sorry to offend anybody.

I will excuse myself. Maybe my over 30 years of Wushu trainings are all in vain. I humbly bowed out. Goodbye! You are welcome to varify correctness of all my postings.

[backbreaker]

It's the evil of these forums. They make people evil
Humility will get you nowhere fast:D

[Tainan Mantis]

SPJ,
I don't think 30 years of Wushu training are in vain because Lio is not happy with you.
And you don't have to use his approval as the measuring stick of your personal worth.

What you have posted does not answer my personal dilimma thoguh.

I will teach taiji when I move back to the states.
Some students will be female. How do I approach the push hands situation realistically while respecting female notons of privacy decency and personal space.

The females here, directly or indirectly don't seem to mind, but somehow I feel that isn't the majority of females who enter taiji class hoping to improve their physical and mental well being.

And maybe I am out moded and old fashoined in my philosophy of training which boils down to,
"can I whip your ass if I train this way?"

Blooming,
I don't think of females as more fragile.
I have noticed they can be vicoius in a fight, something to do with the protect your baby hormone, but I'm just guessing here.

But many people boy and girl go to taiji for other reasons besides self defencse.

Many just want to feel the chi flowing through the meridians.

[SPJ]

My brother was teaching Tai Ji Push Hands, Tai Ji Qi Gong, Tai Ji Qin Na and Southern Shaolin Tiger Form in Pan Chiao, Taipei, Taiwan in the late 80's and early 90's. Yes, he has a Kou Shu studio. He also teach in Taiwan's Air Force Academy for a short while. He was invited to do Qi Gong study in Harvard University. He was a honor guest in Japanese Qi Gong society and he was on TV in Japan that he healed 2 years old boy with Qi Gong. on and on.

I was introduced with Long Boxing first. Only to learn Tai Ji at later age. The truth of matter is that it is all in the state of mind. When you are in your teen, you practice Long Boxing would be better for growth and development of your musculoskeletal system. When you are under teen, no serious Wushu training. It would impair growth and even cripple you. When you are close to adult you may practice Tai Ji. You may practice Tai Ji at any age. But your state of mind is not ready. When you practice Tai Ji from adulthood onward. The older you get, the more proficiency you get, your Tai Ji Gong is deeper.

You may teach Tai Ji as exercise or meditation. However, Tai Ji Fighting is not for everybody. You need some talents and lots of practice. The theory of Tai Ji is that everything is moving, everything maybe defeated. Yin and Yang are born together and end together. In the extreme of one seeds the birth of the other, thus the opposite color of the eye in Tai Ji Yuan Yan Fishes.

When you teach any Wushu, you have to teach offense (Yang)and defense (Yin) at the same time. The student would learn a balance mind. The only way to win is to outskill and outsmart the opponent. Aquire the opportunity. Aquire the time. (Der Ji Der Shi). When you practice Tai Ji Push Hands, 4 Zhen 4 Yu. You are basically learning to listen and understand the nature of the opponent's Jin (direction, change of direction, intensity). Tin Jin and Dong Jin. It is all in the wrist and the forearm contact points. You are practicing sensing. Any moment you detect an oppotunity, you would do and think the opposite. If the opponet is going to retract, you push forward vice versa. (level 1). on and on. They are delicate training. Ultimately, you have to sense Jin with your whole body including chest. You end the fight by pushing or pulling the opponent. But you are practicing, you do not need to push or pull too hard. Actually, protecting your wrist and shoulder is more important. I was once injured on the right wrist and right shoulder.

Yes, if you need to push the chest, rule of thumb may be high up in the sternum only with a minimal force. The opponent is easy to fall, if you position yourself right. No need for a big force. Chest protector may be o.k. Head gears and mattress and learning how to fall safely are more important. If you actually want to make somebody fall.

Push Hands are about Don Jin, Tin Jin and think and move the opposite way (level 1).

A lot of times, you control and push the forearm near his chest to make him fall. not so much pushing chest directly with your hand.

If some student wants to learn how to beat somebody up. At first he has to learn how to defend and how not to be beaten up. That is the main lesson in Wushu.

Ignore my ignorance.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by SPJ
Sorry to offend anybody.

I will excuse myself. Maybe my over 30 years of Wushu trainings are all in vain. I humbly bowed out. Goodbye! You are welcome to varify correctness of all my postings.


No your 30 years of training are were not in vain, but that does not mean that huge posts making absolute statments while more or less missing the point have much of a place on this forum.

Most people here have some level of skill in the cma and even if its in the same style as yours their experiance will be differant, so its best not to tell people the way things are (as you see them) when they are just looking for advice.

[backbreaker]

I think SPJ posts sound intelligent. Don't worry, in 6 months you'll be flaming away at everyone who says anything to you

[bamboo_ leaf]

I will teach taiji when I move back to the states.
Some students will be female. How do I approach the push hands situation realistically while respecting female notons of privacy decency and personal space.



Just teach as you would normally teach and explain upfront what it’s about and what can happen. Any hang-ups are in your head not theres. If its apparent that something else is going on besides push hands im sure they will let you know, just as you may have met some who try to use push hands as a type of contest or fighting, you can tell what it’s about......

[Tainan Mantis]

Bamboo Leaf,
Thanks for the advice.
I think you may be right about the location of the hang ups

[SPJ]

Agreed! Apologized for long postings and with absolute wordings.

A Chinese merchant bought an elephant from Thailand. He blindfolded several people. The first person touched the body and said it is a wall. The second person touched the tail and said it is a rope. The third person touched the feet and said it is a tree or a pole. The 4th person touched the nose and said it is a hose. They are all correct. When they remove their blindfolds, they all said Oh!

I simply like to share some of my views. If it is correct, say yes. If you do not agree or it is plain wrong, just laugh if off.

Neutralization of Jin (Fah Jin). The basic one is to change the facing of the body by moving one foot and turning the chest. (Shen Fah). And you move relative to the opponent as if 2 Yuan Yan Fishes in Tai Ji Diagram. If you are good at this, or this would be taught as the first lesson in Push Hands. The opponent would never be able to touch your chest. Sorry sound absolute again.

Have a good laugh! If you do not agree!

[SPJ]

A practice reminder:

In almost of all practices of Wushu, chest is protected. If your chest is exposed, you are dead or seriously injured. You are defeated. Then the study and design of Wushu are all about preventing that from happening. Not sounding absolute. Test my observation!

Wing Chun; Tang Sao.
Tong Bei, fists from the mouth,
The fist is in line with nose and the front foot. (San Jien Xian Zao)
on and on.
Tai Ji you folks knows already.

Chest is always protected. If not, you lose.

Laugh if you do not agree!

[SPJ]

Direct answers to the question. Tai Ji techniques were originally designed for men. Some of the techniques may not be appropiate for girls to practice. Such as using the chest to hit the opponent (Guo), the chest being pushed upward (Peng), etc. Instead of answering if women should wear protective gear to practice all these techniques. I focused on why should one practice Push Hands to fight. It is difficult to practice and require talents and talents. You may injure your wrist and shoulder. There are many techniques on controlling the 3 sections of the arm. There are many techniques from positioning to avoid chest being attacked. There are all sorts of Wushu methods to protect the chest.
These are Zen (Chan) answers to the orignial question posed. They provide the directions that a women Tai Ji practitioner may focus on practicing.
In plain English, why wearing protective gear to practice techniques involving chest. why not study methods to protect the chest or avoid using chest to attack. Unavoidably, the chest is the focus of the opponent's attack, then your focus of training would be how to protect and avoid the chest being attacked. Why wasting time to wear protective gear and practice "Men" techniques.

These are my opinions. You may disagree.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Much of SPJ's insights are valid at some level.. but, the chest protection is useful while learning to protect the front mid-line for women.. certainly we can espouse the "ideal" situations, but.. those situations are not plentiful, better to protect the female student's interests than to lose the student to ideals in this situation.. if a female student feels more secure wearing chest protection, what difference is it? at some point, though, i would advise them that in a street situation the aggressor is not likely to wait for you to put on your protection.. once comfortable with the training environment, i advise females to test their skills in more likely scenarios.. i do not insist, though..

Perhaps Taiji was not originally conceived with women in mind, but.. like all things, Taji must evolve, too.. so must our concepts and methods of teaching.. great lessons are learned by matching large and powerful men against smaller women.. there is no honor in overpowering a smaller woman, so the man relies on strategy and softness (good training).. the woman admittedly will have difficulties fighting a larger man's strength, so.. she, too, must learn to rely on strategies and internal energies to deal with the Yang energies of a man (also good training).. The Taiji symbol is often used as an analogy of "male and female", so we should embrace the equallities (and the equallity can be different but still equal) and include the female energies as complementary to the male.. a woman has as much right to train as a man.. as Lao Tzu said.. know the Yang but keep to the Yin.. (besides, i like the balance females bring to the Art)...


I focused on why should one practice Push Hands to fight. ..
we focus on push-hands NOT to fight, rather to control a situation.. keep the opponent off balance, control their weapons and demonstrate the futility of aggressive behavior.. if that doesn't discourage the opponent, then we escalate the Taiji to more convincing levels.. Qinna, etc.. until ultimately, there may be the necessity to "have a fight", which is founded on push-hands principles, but discards much of the pleasantries and adds Fajing as a final measure of deterance..

Be well...

[SPJ]

Some basic ways to avoid chest pressing on female training partner in class. At least we used to use these in our class.

Key points:
1. Chest is the inside of both arms (Li Men), so your stretagy is to go outside (Wai Men).
2. Tai Ji Maneuver 1 (To follow the same direction of Jin and then go the opposite direction).

If she punches your head with her right hand, you deflect her forearm upward (Peng) with your right hand. She is off balance. If she wants to retreat, the moment you sense the change of direction of her Jin, you push her exposed ribside to make her fall.

If she punches your chest with her right fist, you move your right foot back and/or turn your chest (depends on distance in between) and use your right forearm to contact (stick, Zhang) her forearm and use your pinkie and wrist area and then idex finger and thumb to Tsai her wrist. You merge into her Jin and then redirect laterally (Follow, Lui), she feels her Jin is lost and emptied out. She is off balance. When she wants to retreat, you sense the Jin, you push her rib side, or upper arm or shoulder to make her fall.

If she punches your abdomen with her right fist, you move your right foot back a step and/or move your left foot to the left side a little. Use your right hand to Tsai her wrist and push/pull downward. She is off balance. When she wants to retreat, you push her upper arm, shoulder and/or back to make her fall.

Other senarios, you may ask students to work out the solutions in writing before practicing. When they are proficient in all senarios. They may practice free sparring. Again always go outside on female partners.

Jih and Anh on chest are not to be practiced on female.

Hey, I should be writing a book about it. Nah!

A few ideas, if you do not agree, laugh if off.

There is always another higher mountain. There is always another deeper water. There is always another person with better ideas. (Ren Wai You Ren, Tien Wai You Tien)

God Bless!

Or Armitorpho!

[norther practitioner]

Just something simple and short.

During push hands with a woman I usually will aim for above the breast but still on the chest, or bellow the breast in the abdomen area.

[SPJ]

Culture Things: I feel ashamed. I am new to the forum. I bumped into this thread by accident. I should have left.

"A good gentleman never fights a girl" (Hou Nan Bu Yi Nih Do) A Chinese axiom.

Even a girls hit you, you may never return hand. Where is my manner?

There are people that like to attack other people both physically or verbally. You know what, eventually, that mentality hurts you more than anybody else. Destruction brings destruction. Evils beget evils. You are walking into fire and enter the kingdom of Satan. (Zhou Fou Lu Moun)

On the other hand, you think about defense all the time. You have the right mindset to study Wushu. When you study, you always think about life and death. How to defend yourself and beat the aggressor and survive. That is the right approach and the only approach to study Wushu.

Talking about a guy fighting a girl and push where? I demean myself. We take a serious business of life and death down the low low lane. I feel shame, shame, shame.

No offense to anyone.

[buddah_belly]

I appologize in advance if this is deemed inappropriate.

I'm a girl, and I have big boobs...and yeah they get in the way sometimes. It's just something I have to live with. I know that there are going to be occasions when they inadvertantly touch or are touched by someone. I don't get all bent out of shape about it. It's not that big a deal...now if you do it on purpose, I'm knocking you through the wall, but that's another story for another day. That's just this girl's opinion on it.

[BAI HE]

I would grab both (if my hands fit around them) and push as hard as I could....

In my class, the women don't get offended, rather they seem a little miffed that I avoid these areas (not miffed that I won't touch this area). It is really not a big deal at all to them if it happens.

To me? I was raised a bit old school and I just don't feel comfortable touching (even by mistake) a woman that way.
It may seem sexist but it's not. I was wired up this way by the Catholic school system.
I love boobs, but I respect them as well. Does this alter my style or training? Perhaps.
I'm adding a variable that shouldn't be there. Kind of like puncing 2" short of a target. The long term effects of this practice? I don't worry, nor lose any sleep over it.

[blooming lotus]

yes it does...so what you're saying is that if your opponent has breasts, you're willing to comprimise your excution....well alrighty dude...but personally, I just find that if an opponent remains facelesss, its all clinical and technique takes care of itself...comprehend'e

[Vash]

I revel in any chance to make boob-contact. :o