see what happens when muay thai guy learns from tong po

[Unmatchable]

You can tell this guy who got kod learned muay thai from watching kickboxer like ralek learned muay thai from playing street fighter.

http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=368544&FID=23&p=23

[SevenStar]

His hands were a little high, but high hands are used for various reasons - when you parry their hands downward, it leaves a greater opening. The clip was short, but it looks like he was inexperienced. He's got the "locomotive jab" - his hand lowers as it returns to his face. I don't think he was jabbing when he got hit though - he looked like he was trying to sweep the kick - he just didn't know that it was coming high.

[IronFist]

It looks like he put his arm down to block cuz he thought the kick was going to be a low kick.

[backbreaker]

Yeah, that can be a really good technique if you catch the leg and then throw a right hand, it can end the fight, but so can a head high kick

[Unmatchable]

If putting your hands up like that was effective than pro boxers would be doing it too. Don't forget everything Muay thai has regarding punches they stole from boxing, because boxing has superior punches. And they judge their punches according to boxing. If you could parry hits like that why don't you see bocers on espn doing it?

[SevenStar]

because boxers don't have to scoop kicks. I agree that boxing has superior punching - that's why many thai boxers have incorporated it - but that doesn't mean that the hands high stance doesn't have it's uses.

[SevenStar]

And no, they didn't "steal" everything about their punching from boxing. Thai boxing's straight punches travel at a downward trajectory - another reason for the high hands.

[Unmatchable]

what are scoop kicks? You mean teep kicks? Considering that those are aimed at the body what does that have to do with hand positioning?

[SevenStar]

I didn't say they don't DO scoop kicks. I said they don't scoop kicks.

Scooping a kick is merely catching the kick, lifting their leg upward/forward, upward/outside, etc. that kills their balance for long enough instance for you to counter. It's a tactic used against the teep.

[red5angel]

Considering that those are aimed at the body what does that have to do with hand positioning?


I would think this would be obvious for a guy who has so much to say about boxing and MT. How about in boxing the main target is the head and upper body (since you can't hit below the belt) so you keep your hands high to maximize coverage. In MT, they not only punch, but kick and alot of their kicks and even punches can be lower, so you have to chose a middle ground, hence your guard might be a touch lower.

[Judge Pen]

It looked to me like the KOd guy was trying to throw another jab and the kicking guy timed it just right. Ouch.

[red5angel]

looks like he tried to block the kick and missed, leaving him open for a connect square to the jaw. Props to him for trying to get back in though!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
It looked to me like the KOd guy was trying to throw another jab and the kicking guy timed it just right. Ouch.

I don't think so - watch his arm - it goes straight down, it didn't go out and then down, like his jab did. I think he intended to block or catch the kick - he zigged when he shoulda zagged.

[SevenStar]

However, if he was blocking, it seems like he would've lifted his leg, unless he hasn't broken the habit some have of using the arms to block a low kick.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by SevenStar


I don't think so - watch his arm - it goes straight down, it didn't go out and then down, like his jab did. I think he intended to block or catch the kick - he zigged when he shoulda zagged.

You may be right, but I think the guy kicking was aware that he was dropping his guard when jabbing (or trying to scoop his kicks) and was trying to time his kick accordingly. Whether he was blocking or jabbing, he had his clocked cleaned.

This clip is the reason why I try to lift my leg to block low kicks. Even tong po lifted his legs to block low kicks!

[SevenStar]

Yeah, I think he was timing it too. that was a "bad habit" I picked up while I was in longfist - using the arm to block. When I went back to MT, I took several headshots from that.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by red5angel



I would think this would be obvious for a guy who has so much to say about boxing and MT. How about in boxing the main target is the head and upper body (since you can't hit below the belt) so you keep your hands high to maximize coverage. In MT, they not only punch, but kick and alot of their kicks and even punches can be lower, so you have to chose a middle ground, hence your guard might be a touch lower.

No actually boxers hold their hands alot lower. ANd especially lower than that guy who got kod.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Yeah, I think he was timing it too. that was a "bad habit" I picked up while I was in longfist - using the arm to block. When I went back to MT, I took several headshots from that.

Did they teach that in your longfist class or was it just a bad habit that they failed to correct?

[CrippledAvenger]

I really shouldn't feed the troll, but I'm bored and stuck on my article, so I'm going to have some fun.

I was always taught that the high hands were for elbow defences and to make it easier to grapple. It all depends on the coach's style-- some coaches favor the striking more and less of the clinch work and vice versa.

If you want to see improbable boxing guards that worked devistatingly well, check out Thomas Hearns' fights or Archie Moore. Dempsey also had a very unorthodox guard, as did Ken Norton and Rocky Marciano.

It's all about making the style work for you, anyway.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


Did they teach that in your longfist class or was it just a bad habit that they failed to correct?

nah, they taught it. I had done two years of muay thai before going to longfist. They (longfist) taught low blocks and also catching kicks. Before muayt thai, I had been training karate for several years. So, I started out low blocking and leg blocking, then started leg blocking, then had to go back to low blocking, only to have myself go back to leg blocking, which I prefer anyway. From here on out, I'm sticking with leg blocks.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
I was always taught that the high hands were for elbow defences and to make it easier to grapple

A. Elbows are illegal in American competitions at least in California where I live.

B. There is no grabbling besides clinch where referee generally breaks it up after awhile.

[backbreaker]

Well you have tyo get good at inside fighting so that the ref doesn't break it up

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by SevenStar


nah, they taught it. I had done two years of muay thai before going to longfist. They (longfist) taught low blocks and also catching kicks. Before muayt thai, I had been training karate for several years. So, I started out low blocking and leg blocking, then started leg blocking, then had to go back to low blocking, only to have myself go back to leg blocking, which I prefer anyway. From here on out, I'm sticking with leg blocks.

Actually you can and alot of people do catch the legs than either sweep or punch the face. And Longfist seems like a respected style over at emptyflower. Btw, ever heard of kicking the leg before opponent kicks your legs. or stepping on the meat of the leg? Tadzio said that's what he always does (xingyi).

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by backbreaker
Well you have tyo get good at inside fighting so that the ref doesn't break it up

Even in Thailand the ref breaks it up after awhile. And nobod in the West can get better than that, unless they grew up training 6 hours a day which none have, or have superhuman natural talents which few have.

[backbreaker]

There are ways to escape the clinch, you could break away at your own choosing and throw a kick to the head

[backbreaker]

Actually I'm just talking for the sake of it, what is this thread about? Keep your elbows in tight if you want

[Unmatchable]

Yea keeping the elbows in tight like boxers is superior to overextending them like Tang Po does.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Unmatchable


Actually you can and alot of people do catch the legs than either sweep or punch the face. And Longfist seems like a respected style over at emptyflower. Btw, ever heard of kicking the leg before opponent kicks your legs. or stepping on the meat of the leg? Tadzio said that's what he always does (xingyi).

In MT we catch kicks also. We just don't low block. Low blocking, IMO, is a bad habit. At least with the caught kick, your balance is compromised - I can charge you back against the ropes, or just until you fall, I can sweep, I can follow with a punch, I can cut kick, etc. With a low block, you are only leaving yourself open. As for kicking the leg before he kicks, I prefer to kick the hip. It's more stationary than the leg, and therefore a higher % stop kick than kicking his leg.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Unmatchable

or stepping on the meat of the leg? Tadzio said that's what he always does (xingyi).

Are you referring to "wildcat climbs the tree" or some variation of that descriptive posture? I believe that's a rake down the leg ending in a stomp on the foot/ankle.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Unmatchable
Yea keeping the elbows in tight like boxers is superior to overextending them like Tang Po does.

Not really. that depends on point of view. Just as boxers don't scoop kicks, they also don't worry about being kicked in the head. thai boxers aren't known for evading - that was brought in when boxing techniques were adopted - they just condition themselves to take the blow. with the forearms raised, the head is protected. MT pretty much has the most feared roundhouse around - quite naturally, they want to keep their defense against it up, that way they can remain fighting. that's no different than a boxer keeping his hands up to avoid a glove to his jaw.

[red5angel]

what's the difference really between catching and blocking low kicks?


Yea keeping the elbows in tight like boxers is superior to overextending them like Tang Po does.

umatcheable - I'm going to challenge you to come up with quantifiable proof of this, or atleast a rational and thorough argument for why you believe this.

[Unmatchable]

overextending your arms makes it harder to block roundhouses than a boxing stance closer to your jaw and face. The only thing wrong with the boxing stance is that they put too much pressure on their forward foot making them vulnerable to sweeps or front leg kicks. Btw you take any pro heavyweight boxer and he will clean up almost any Muay Thai fighter. I'm not talking about Butterbean here though.

[Unmatchable]

stepping on the foot meant stepping on the kicking foot right before it raises to reach it's target (your leg). You have to kinf od turn your foot counterclockwise at a 45 degree angle and step on the thigh of the kixking leg.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by Unmatchable
Btw you take any pro heavyweight boxer and he will clean up almost any Muay Thai fighter. I'm not talking about Butterbean here though.

Sure, but only because the Thais have not been historically strong at those weights. I don't even know of a current Muay Thai champ at any of the stadiums who's even remotely close to the size of the Klitchkos.

There HAVE been quite a few lighter-weight thai fighters who came into boxing from Muay Thai and did quite well, however.

Take from it what you will.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger


Sure, but only because the Thais have not been historically strong at those weights. I don't even know of a current Muay Thai champ at any of the stadiums who's even remotely close to the size of the Klitchkos.

There HAVE been quite a few lighter-weight thai fighters who came into boxing from Muay Thai and did quite well, however.

Take from it what you will. I'm with CA...put a 130-lb pro Thai Boxer against a 130-lb pro Western Boxer, and the odds might not be so stacked.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger


Sure, but only because the Thais have not been historically strong at those weights. I don't even know of a current Muay Thai champ at any of the stadiums who's even remotely close to the size of the Klitchkos.

There HAVE been quite a few lighter-weight thai fighters who came into boxing from Muay Thai and did quite well, however.

Take from it what you will.

yeA BUT WHEN THEY JOIN BOXING THEY USUALLY GET A BOXING COACH AND GUESS WHAT? THEY END UP HOLDING THEIR HANDS LIKE BOXERS NOT LIKE TONG PO. IF THAT METHOD OF POSTURE AND PARRYING PUNCHES WAS SO EFFECTIVE YOU WOULD SEE BOXERS DOING IT.

[backbreaker]

Regarless, this thread has not proved anything, I have also been told that some retired muay thai fighters from thailand have come over and become world boxing champions at the lower weights. I was told, they might as well, it's easy money and their careers are done in thailand

I don't really know, but it seems ther might be a use to high arms , and that might be entering to the clinch, maintaing what is called " peng structure" in taiji is also in Muay thai clinching. I keep my hands at cheekbones with elbows in mostly. Also you don't want to just let your opponent T off on you unless you are confident you can counter back immediately, is it not better to clinch than to take multiple combos?

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by Unmatchable


yeA BUT WHEN THEY JOIN BOXING THEY USUALLY GET A BOXING COACH AND GUESS WHAT? THEY END UP HOLDING THEIR HANDS LIKE BOXERS NOT LIKE TONG PO. IF THAT METHOD OF POSTURE AND PARRYING PUNCHES WAS SO EFFECTIVE YOU WOULD SEE BOXERS DOING IT.

Do you ever post anything that's not a blatant generalization? You really need to work on your trolling, it's getting a bit stale.

The argument that professional boxers A) have a standard guard and B) have a superior guard to muay thai remains unproven. I've given you examples of world-class boxers with unorthodox hand positioning and you've completely ignored it. We've discussed the difference in fighting philosophy and the needs of different ring sports which you've also soundly ignored.

Any other aspect you want me to bring up so you can ignore and continue to troll? I'm here to help, you know.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by backbreaker
Regarless, this thread has not proved anything, I have also been told that some retired muay thai fighters from thailand have come over and become world boxing champions at the lower weights. I was told, they might as well, it's easy money and their careers are done in thailand

I don't really know, but it seems ther might be a use to high arms , and that might be entering to the clinch, maintaing what is called " peng structure" in taiji is also in Muay thai clinching. I keep my hands at cheekbones with elbows in mostly. Also you don't want to just let your opponent T off on you unless you are confident you can counter back immediately, is it not better to clinch than to take multiple combos?

I can see how it can be effective for clinching but how do you expect to have any power behind your punches if they are way in front over extended? And jerking them back will make them really easy to see. Also why not just use the crazy monkey to get into a clinch?

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger


Do you ever post anything that's not a blatant generalization? You really need to work on your trolling, it's getting a bit stale.

The argument that professional boxers A) have a standard guard and B) have a superior guard to muay thai remains unproven. I've given you examples of world-class boxers with unorthodox hand positioning and you've completely ignored it. We've discussed the difference in fighting philosophy and the needs of different ring sports which you've also soundly ignored.

Any other aspect you want me to bring up so you can ignore and continue to troll? I'm here to help, you know.

You gave me examples of unorthodox boxers of the past. Today most boxers have a similar guard which evolved over a period of time into a superior most efficient one.

[Water Dragon]

Unmatchable, you're making a big deal out of nothing. I alternate between both when I spar. It's really not that big of a deal. You should be arguing about important stuff, like whether or not you should tuck your lower back.

[Unmatchable]

well it was one of the reasons the guy in the clip lost IMO.

[backbreaker]

IMO from watching the clip the guy who lost was anticipating too much. He had an idea in his mind of what he wanted to do, but the opponent didn't do what the guy was anticipating, I think he waited for his opponent to attack rather than trying to put pressure on the opponent and make the opponent react the way he wanted. You have to make the opponent react how you want

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Unmatchable


I can see how it can be effective for clinching but how do you expect to have any power behind your punches if they are way in front over extended? And jerking them back will make them really easy to see. Also why not just use the crazy monkey to get into a clinch?

triangulation - they punch downard. Also, I mentioned above that thaiboxers scoop kicks. While scooping and/or sliding back, space is created. you use that space to either scoop the kick, or evade (you are sliding slightly out of range of the teep) With your hands lowered, you aren't making as much space. I've given several reasons, yet as with CA, you continue to ignore them.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Unmatchable
well it was one of the reasons the guy in the clip lost IMO.

That had nothing to do with it... The guy lowered his arm to block or catch. Had he had his arm high, he wouldn't have been knocked out.

[rubthebuddha]

That had nothing to do with it... The guy lowered his arm to block or catch. Had he had his arm high, he wouldn't have been knocked out. exactly. he puts his arm high and misses a block for a body kick, his wind is gone and maybe a rib or two as well. he lost because he whiffed on the block. it had nothing to do with normal guard position. it had everything to do with where his hands were at that specific time.

i just don't think unm knows a thing about context. he keeps talking about how boxers do it one way and that someone who trains for something entirely different should still do it the way boxers do. kickboxers have more weapons to worry about, more targets to defend and more ranges in which to be skilled. put a kickboxer in a boxer's realm, and it's all boxer. force a boxer to defend against a skilled kicker and the story is no longer written as such. it's little different than having a sprinter compete against a decathlete. in the 100m, the sprinter has it easy. add other events to the mix, and the more rounded decathlete comes up snoogins.