Why Wing Chun is inferior...

[Knifefighter]

Ultimatewingchun’s comment about Wing Chun being superior to kickboxing prompted me to sit down and compare and contrast Wing Chun with kickboxing, boxing, and Muay Thai. Here’s my analysis:

Power Development:
Power development is an extremely important component of unarmed fighting. Body rotation plays a pivotal role in the development of power and can be illustrated by observing activities that require maximum power (i.e. golf drives; baseball homerun hits; baseball and football throws; discuss, javelin, and shotput throws; tennis strokes).

Since Centerline theory dictates that Wing Chun fighters keep the center of their bodies facing their opponents, they are unable to realize the maximum power development allowed by full body rotation.

Boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai, on the other hand, have no such constraints and make full use of body rotation in delivering their strikes. So much power is developed by these types of rotational mechanics that several of these fighters are routinely killed in the ring and in training each year.

Exposure of Vulnerable Targets:
The goal of most striking arts is to hit the most vulnerable areas of the body in order to incapacitate the opponent. Keeping these areas as unexposed as possible is an important consideration in combat.

Due to the Centerline theory, traditional Wing Chun practitioners stand in a square stance with the center of their bodies facing their opponents. This type of stance opens up the face, neck, abdomen, and groin to forward, direct blows from the opponent. Even those who have modified the traditional Wing Chun stance into a staggered stance still keep the upper body facing forward, continuing to expose the face, neck, and abdominal areas to the opponent. Since several vulnerable targets of the body’s center are facing the opponent, the Wing Chun fighter must be concerned with committing many of his resources towards protecting these targets.

In contrast to this, Boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai use a staggered stance, which turns the body slightly and moves the vulnerable targets of the center of the body away from the opponent, making them harder to hit. Additionally, these fighters also tuck the head slightly and raise the lead shoulder to further protect the face and neck area.

Mobility:
A fighter who moves fast without losing his equilibrium or ability to generate power will have a significant advantage. Mobility is necessary for delivering offensive blows, as well as for complementing defensive techniques.

The square stance of traditional Wing Chun forces the practitioner to either step forward or backward before being able to move the body forward or backward. This is because the center of mass (the majority of the body’s weight) must first be situated forward of the support area (the foot). In biomechanical terms, this is known as a false step.

During the time it takes to perform the false step, the fighter is off balance and has no base from which to develop power. The transition during the false step creates an extremely vulnerable position for the Wing Chun fighter. Studies have shown that the false step also lengthens the time it takes to move forward or backward by 50 to 100%.

The boxer/kickboxer/Muay Thai practitioner stands in a staggered stance, so no false step is required. These fighters already have one foot behind the center of mass, thus allowing for immediate, non-delayed forward movement and power delivery.

Fighting Range:
A fighter who can dictate the range of the fight to his specifications will generally have an advantage over the fighter who is limited to only one range.

Wing Chun, by virtue of being restricted by Centerline theory, is compelled to fight in close range only. Because the center must continually face the opponent, the range of the Wing Chun practitioner’s weapons are relatively short. Being constricted to fighting in this range severely limits the ability of the Wing Chun fighter to work in a variety of situations and ranges.

Boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai do not have these restrictions and have weapons available for all ranges. Boxing uses the jab for long range fighting, the cross and outside hook for medium range, and the inside hook and uppercuts for inside range. In addition to these same weapons, kickboxing/Muay Thai use side, roundhouse, or front kicks for even longer range fighting and knees and elbows for the shortest ranges. This gives these systems the flexibility needed to fight at a variety of different ranges.

Modifications for Sportive Environments:
Full-contact combative contests such as the K-1 kickboxing events and the Pride and UFC mixed martial arts competitions attract many of the world’s top combat athletes. These events allow participants to test themselves and their training against the best, as well as to make future modifications to their training depending on their successes or failures.

Wing Chun practitioners, by and large, have been relatively unsuccessful in modifying their system to be able to compete under the rules and with the equipment required in these types of contests.

Boxing and Muay Thai have been able to successfully modify their arts to fit the constraints of sporting venues. While kickboxing was developed largely as a ring sport, boxing and Muay Thai were originally designed to be used with no safety equipment, such as gloves, and very few, if any, rules. Over the years, both boxing and Muay Thai have adjusted well to a variety of rule and equipment changes. Muay Thai has successfully adjusted a variety of its techniques, such as the behind the neck grip in the plumb position, to allow for the interference of protective gloves on gripping ability. A variety of boxers, kickboxers, and Muay Thai fighters have also crosstrained in grappling and groundfighting and have been regularly successful at competing in MMA events.

Training Methods:
A basic tenant of effective human performance training is known as specificity of training. This means that the closer one trains to the desired activity, the better the performance results will be.

A majority of Wing Chun training methods are relatively non-specific to the actual event being trained towards (fighting). One component of Wing Chun training is comprised of performing preset forms. Unfortunately, real fighting does not usually allow for the performance of predetermined movements, one after another in a specific sequence.

Another tool used extensively in Wing Chun is the Mook Jong dummy. This is a stationary target that cannot be hit with full power, other than by those very few practitioners with extensively conditioned fists. This is very different than fighting with a live, fully-resisting opponent who is moving freely and must be hit with maximum power.

The other major component of Wing Chun training is Chi Sao. This type of training starts with two opponents touching their arms together and moving them in a type of circular motion, somewhat akin to the motion of turning a steering wheel. This is also a very poor and distant approximation of what occurs when fighting with a real opponent.

By contrast, the training methods of boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai systems are much more specific to what occurs in real fights. These systems make regular use of moving targets such as heavy bags, focus mitts, and kicking pads. These types of training devices also allow for full power hits, helping to develop the fighters’ ability to hit hard and giving them realistic feedback, both in terms of hitting power, as well as timing and distance. Boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai also make regular use of full contact sparring with strikes to a variety of targets, which approximates even closer the dynamics of a real fight.

Absorbing Punishment:
The ability to absorb blows can mean the difference between winning and losing a fight between two evenly matched opponents. It can also play a pivotal role when taking unexpected strikes in real-life situations, such as a surprise sucker punch or a blow from an opponent’s compatriot. A fighter who is used to receiving powerful hits will be more likely to withstand them than one who is relatively inexperienced in taking this kind of punishment.

Wing Chun’s chief mode of sparring is Chi Sao. In this type of training, participants are usually limited to striking the opponent’s chest area. Relatively few Wing Chun practitioners are regularly hit with hard strikes to the face, head, or abdominal area during training. Because of this, they do not have the opportunity to develop the tolerance for hits to these areas.

In contrast to this, boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai fighters are regularly subjected to powerful hits to the head, face, and abdominal areas in both sparring and competitions. These fighters develop a remarkable ability to absorb these blows and continue fighting.

The Flawed Centerline Theory:
My conclusion is that the Centerline theory of Wing Chun, while intellectually appealing, is an unsound theory that causes the system to have a variety of defects. This flawed theory, when combined with the inefficient training methods commonly found in Wing Chun, inhibits the ability of its practitioners to develop fighting skills comparable to the levels of those who practice combative sport-type systems such as boxing, kickboxing, and Muay Thai.

[Phil Redmond]

I haven't finshed reading your post but I had to respond to this.

>>Since Centerline theory dictates that Wing Chun fighters keep the center of their bodies facing their opponents, they are unable to realize the maximum power development allowed by full body rotation.<<

Not in TWC. We are distinctly different from most other WC in that respect. We don't face square on for the reasons you mentioned above.
Phil

[yuanfen]

Re knifefighter's post- you can think what you want. Your representation of wing chun is limited and flawed imo.

On the forum folks often just reassert their position and your reassertion of what you know of wing chun is of that order.

But if that's what you think-its ok by me.

I was going to counter your assertions about wing chun- but decided not to bother.

[yuanfen]

Re knifefighter's post- you can think what you want. Your representation of wing chun is limited and flawed imo.

On the forum, folks often just reassert their position and your reassertion of what you know of wing chun is of that order.

But if that's what you think-its ok by me.

I was going to counter your assertions about wing chun- but decided not to bother with quasi trolling.

[Phil Redmond]

>>In contrast to this, Boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai use a staggered stance, which turns the body slightly and moves the vulnerable targets of the center of the body away from the opponent, making them harder to hit. Additionally, these fighters also tuck the head slightly and raise the lead shoulder to further protect the face and neck area.<<

TWC

>>Mobility:
A fighter who moves fast without losing his equilibrium or ability to generate power will have a significant advantage. Mobility is necessary for delivering offensive blows, as well as for complementing defensive techniques.<<

TWC

>>The square stance of traditional Wing Chun forces the practitioner to either step forward or backward before being able to move the body forward or backward. This is because the center of mass (the majority of the body’s weight) must first be situated forward of the support area (the foot). In biomechanical terms, this is known as a false step. <<

That's why TWC doesn't do the above.

>>Wing Chun, by virtue of being restricted by Centerline theory, is compelled to fight in close range only. Because the center must continually face the opponent, the range of the Wing Chun practitioner’s weapons are relatively short. Being constricted to fighting in this range severely limits the ability of the Wing Chun fighter to work in a variety of situations and ranges.<<

TWC is a CENTRAL Line system, not centerline.

>>Wing Chun practitioners, by and large, have been relatively unsuccessful in modifying their system to be able to compete under the rules and with the equipment required in these types of contests.<<

I never competed in grappling matches but I was a successful kickboxer when I fought in tournaments that allowed knees, elbows and throws, Other examples example are Keith Mazza from NJ and the WC fighters from Australia like Rick Spain and others. Probably too few examples though.

>>A majority of Wing Chun training methods are relatively non-specific to the actual event being trained towards (fighting). One component of Wing Chun training is comprised of performing preset forms. Unfortunately, real fighting does not usually allow for the performance of predetermined movements, one after another in a specific sequence.<<

It all depends on the the school, but you are right in some cases.

>>Another tool used extensively in Wing Chun is the Mook Jong dummy. This is a stationary target that cannot be hit with full power, other than by those very few practitioners with extensively conditioned fists. This is very different than fighting with a live, fully-resisting opponent who is moving freely and must be hit with maximum power. <<

William Cheung wrote in a article that a padded dummy would be more beneficial, but a dummy has other benefits aside from striking power. There are training methods in Muay Thai that are developmental as opposed to fight specific as well.

>>The other major component of Wing Chun training is Chi Sao. This type of training starts with two opponents touching their arms together and moving them in a type of circular motion, somewhat akin to the motion of turning a steering wheel. This is also a very poor and distant approximation of what occurs when fighting with a real opponent.<<

You obviously have no clue here.

>>Boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai also make regular use of full contact sparring with strikes to a variety of targets, which approximates even closer the dynamics of a real fight.,,

This can be applied to ANY art. What WC guys have you been watching? Keith Mazza's school in NJ and Duncan Leung's old Great Jones school bursts that myth to name a few.

>>Wing Chun’s chief mode of sparring is Chi Sao. In this type of training, participants are usually limited to striking the opponent’s chest area. Relatively few Wing Chun practitioners are regularly hit with hard strikes to the face, head, or abdominal area during training. Because of this, they do not have the opportunity to develop the tolerance for hits to these areas<<

Sorry, I had to chuckle at that one. Who told you chi sau was sparring? BTW, I'm not coming for a WC is superior perspective. I have friends in many arts who are kick a**. You just need to hang out with different WC people if you feel that way.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
>>The other major component of Wing Chun training is Chi Sao. This type of training starts with two opponents touching their arms together and moving them in a type of circular motion, somewhat akin to the motion of turning a steering wheel. This is also a very poor and distant approximation of what occurs when fighting with a real opponent.<<

You obviously have no clue here. So, enlighten me. How do you perform Chi Sao?

[Phil Redmond]

The way I do chi sau is is not sparring as you said it was. It teaches forward energy and how to react to different types of contact. You have to learn how to start from a random pre-contact stage and then the principles of chi sau can be applied. Which means you have to do what you probably consider sparring. Tis' not the circling ,flailing hands you may think. I plan on taping some chi sau techinques and show you how they can be applied to real situtations. You'll be seeing them here soon.
http://www.wck-media.co.uk
Then you'll be enlightened my friend.
Phil

[OdderMensch]

Wing Chun’s chief mode of sparring is Chi Sao. In this type of training, participants are usually limited to striking the opponent’s chest area. Relatively few Wing Chun practitioners are regularly hit with hard strikes to the face, head, or abdominal area during training. Because of this, they do not have the opportunity to develop the tolerance for hits to these areas.
I know this has been said before and i see Sifu Redmond is beginning a challenge to it, but i would like to add in two cents i have laying around. Chi Sau is not sparring, it is not wing chun sparring it is not a form of sparing. It is a part of a regime of training to improve contact reflexes and awareness of range and timing at such close quarters as WC fights with.

It is not meant to be competitive, but cooperative. It is not meant to make the person hard, or fast, but more skilled.



Another tool used extensively in Wing Chun is the Mook Jong dummy. This is a stationary target that cannot be hit with full power, other than by those very few practitioners with extensively conditioned fists. This is very different than fighting with a live, fully-resisting opponent who is moving freely and must be hit with maximum power.

Again, the dummy is not sparring, nor is it for developing power or speed. It is there to refine the skill and positions trained in the sets, and in chi sau. While it can me compared to a boxers heavy bag, it is used to develop an entirely different set of skills. With the bag generating speed and power, while the dummy provides for strength in stance and position.

What is incumbent on the practitioner in either case is PRACTICE.


The square stance of traditional Wing Chun forces the practitioner to either step forward or backward before being able to move the body forward or backward. This is because the center of mass (the majority of the body’s weight) must first be situated forward of the support area (the foot). In bio mechanical terms, this is known as a false step.

I'm afraid i don't see this, please explain it in simpler terms for me. I see my stepping as moving my foot to a position, then using my adduction to "drag" my body's center of mass to a position relative to the new position of the lead foot. This allows me to keep my stucture secure, and allows for both defensive and offensive techniques to be be applied simultaneously, while makeing it extremely difficult to be simply pushed or pulled off balance.

This type of movement allows for two other advantages that you do not seem to recognize.

One is that since the body's mass is not moved first, kicks may be generated spontaneously, without the need for shifting the wieght to a stable leg, nor unbalancing the bodys structure.

As a plus to this, it means kicks that fail do not necessary unbalance the body. therefore a kick can simply become a step to re dictate a range on my opponent.

Second, and most important, is the bodys ability (refined by skill and practice) to resettle to a firm structure upon sudden movements of the upper body.

An example of this would be is i took a step (non combative) and you pushed me from a random direction. If i picked up my foot and set it down, then pulled my wieght on top of that foot, if pushed suddenly i could simply land on the non wieghted foot to catch myself. If i moved my bodywiegt forward (exagerated with a lean for clarity) i would need to both pick up and move my foot to a braceing position, requireing two motions instead of one.



The goal of most striking arts is to hit the most vulnerable areas of the body in order to incapacitate the opponent. Keeping these areas as unexposed as possible is an important consideration in combat.

100% agree. Thats why WC teaches to keep the elbows down and in, the hands forward, and the body sesative and alive when in contact. While you may want to face the opponent dead on, you don't have to, you just have to keep that vital area proected at all times. Since WC also belives the best defense is a good offense.................

This type of stance opens up the face, neck, abdomen, and groin to forward, direct blows from the opponent.

Yes, and it defends them with both elbows, both knees, both legs, both arms, both hands and both feet. And it does so boldly. with both eyes and one head focoused. Its not easy, its a very different philosophy than absorbing blows in "les than vital" areas, but it can be done.

Since several vulnerable targets of the body’s center are facing the opponent, the Wing Chun fighter must be concerned with committing many of his resources towards protecting these targets.

In fact, all of them must be directed to this task, and done so by elimiating the threat at the source, IE with attack! How is this possible? because the "same shape defends that attacks"


Since Centerline theory dictates that Wing Chun fighters keep the center of their bodies facing their opponents, they are unable to realize the maximum power development allowed by full body rotation.

Watch someone preform chum kiu and tell me that WC does not use body rotation. And body rotation is not the only way the body can generate power.

Sigh, saddly i read this post backwards, and now must read what ultimate WC quote about Kickboxing.

LOL but knifefighter, you do have a well thoughtout and reasoned critique.

[AndrewS]

Knifefighter,

where are you in California? I agree that your statements are true of some Wing Chun, but not all Wing Chun. Karate ranges from Kyushonkai to bad stiff slow motion lacking even the fluidity of geriatric taiji. Boxing goes from aerobics classes to businessmen doing executive boxing to the most serious pros.

Wing Chun has a range too; and you haven't seen part of that range by what you say.

Come to Los Angeles, hang out with me for an afternoon. Maybe we can scare up Dave McKinnon, Ernie, and Dhira. We can work pads and do some mellow live training (30-60%, no ego sh*t) at range, the ground, and from some clinch stuff, maybe hit some pads, trade tricks.

This isn't a challenge, just a friendly invitation. It sounds like you've got some nice experience, and we could all learn from each other.

Sorry not to pick this apart, but I'm kinda sick of internet wars, and, frankly, I share many of your criticisms of the present culture of Wing Chun; I just don't mistake the culture for the art.


Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

I recall Knifefighter stating on a previous thread that he had about 5 years of wing chun experience....

Enough said ???!!!

He's still very much the novice trying to talk Waaaaaaaay above his head - on the subject of wing chun.

But it's not about wing chun - it's really about his beloved BJJ not being given top ranked status...anymore.

Life goes on.

[hunt1]

Knifefighter, Please tell us whose wing chun you are basing your comments on. If you have trained in wing chun who was your teacher and what version of wing chun.

Why do you think that the wing chun you were taught or trained in was representative of all wing chun?

[old jong]

Knifefighter
You just made clear to everybody knowledgable that you never went beyong basic SLT level in Wing Chun.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Knifefighter:

After rereading all of this - you know what ?

Take AndrewS up on his offer if you can. From what I hear he and the other guys he mentioned are all good guys with solid skills and attitude-free...

Then you'll have more to go on in terms of forming a judgment about wing chun.

As for grappling - that's another issue. I referred to Catch on the Connecting Wing Chun w/Grappling thread as "a" superior grappling art...Now do I think that it's "the" best ? Yes. But I'm not trying to shove that idea down people's throats - that's just my own private opinion.

Take it for what it's worth...and if it's not worth anything to you - so be it.

[Phil Redmond]

What OdderMensch said :)

>>. . . Chi Sau is not sparring, it is not wing chun sparring it is not a form of sparing. It is a part of a regime of training to improve contact reflexes and awareness of range and timing at such close quarters as WC fights with.
It is not meant to be competitive, but cooperative. It is not meant to make the person hard, or fast, but more skilled.<<

This was better than my wording.

[Ernie]

knifefighter

**** dude you put some thought into this one :D

a little to much actually , wing chun is just a training system to develop certian attributes that are highly effective at the right range and the right time ,

each art you broke down can say the exact same thing
range and time

and each can also be countered and taken apart

the key is knowing the range and time and developing the attributes and tools that work best at said range and time


if you took the raw robotic training form from any of these arts
thai round kick , boxers jab , stright blast
and tried to apply them with out any knowledge of range ,timing you would fail or look real stiff


this does happen to any style [ yes alot in wing chun ] when they don't bring live energy into the training and create unpredictable situations were they have to learn to adapt

you see it's not so much the technique or style , it's how well can the individual adapt to a situation and set himself up to use his range and timing and tools while shutting down the other person


2 arms 2 legs the person with the superior attributes and experience and conditioning and lastly skill with a ton of luck will usually come out ahead not the style

problem is alot of people are living in a movie or a story about the old master that can walk on water or gave them the only one true key to the kingdom

instead of just stepping up and doing it for themselves

so no need to rip this or that training approach apart , learn what you can from the individuals that grace your path
from the bjj master to the janitor with that tried true stinky fist ghetto shot :D

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Since Centerline theory dictates that Wing Chun fighters keep the center of their bodies facing their opponents
Centerline theory dictates no such thing. Ignorant sifu's interpretations dictate this. The result is this, Knifefighter's ignorant post.


Due to the Centerline theory, traditional Wing Chun practitioners stand in a square stance with the center of their bodies facing their opponents.Ignorant Wing Chun practitioners subscribe to this thinking, yes.


In contrast to this, Boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai use a staggered stance, which turns the body slightly and moves the vulnerable targets of the center of the body away from the opponent, making them harder to hit. This is the way Wing Chun is meant to do it too.


The square stance of traditional Wing Chun forces the practitioner to either step forward or backward before being able to move the body forward or backward. The "square stance" of Wing Chun is not meant for fighting. Any Wing Chun practitioner who uses this to fight is an idiot.


Wing Chun, by virtue of being restricted by Centerline theory, is compelled to fight in close range only.Wing Chun is a short and long range art.


One component of Wing Chun training is comprised of performing preset forms. Unfortunately, real fighting does not usually allow for the performance of predetermined movements, one after another in a specific sequence.I hope that no Wing Chun practitioner believes his forms to be a present fighting sequence.


Another tool used extensively in Wing Chun is the Mook Jong dummy. This is very different than fighting with a live, fully-resisting opponent who is moving freely and must be hit with maximum power. Unfortunately, the REAL purpose of the Wooden Dummy (not the one about hitting various targets) is best not practiced on an actual person. It could be quite the law suit.


The other major component of Wing Chun training is Chi Sao. This is also a very poor and distant approximation of what occurs when fighting with a real opponent.I would hope also that no Wing Chun practitioner perceives his chi sau to be a replication of a fight.


Wing Chun’s chief mode of sparring is Chi Sao. In no way is Chi sau sparring.


My conclusion is that the Centerline theory of Wing Chun, while intellectually appealing, is an unsound theory that causes the system to have a variety of defects. This flawed theory, when combined with the inefficient training methods commonly found in Wing Chun, inhibits the ability of its practitioners to develop fighting skills comparable to the levels of those who practice combative sport-type systems such as boxing, kickboxing, and Muay Thai. With your level of understanding, this is absolutely true.

But every school is different, and all Wing Chun is not created equal.

So, best to stop advertising your ignorance, and let the real Wing Chunners continue their discussion.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by AndrewS


Come to Los Angeles, hang out with me for an afternoon. Maybe we can scare up Dave McKinnon, Ernie, and Dhira. I'm in the LA area and have talked to Ernie in the past about getting together for a workout. At the time he was training Sunday mornings in Pasadena, which is hard for me to make. Sunday afternoons usually work for me, though, and I'm always up for learning new things. Although many people might not believe it, I would love to see guys successfully using Wing Chun in real-time without having to use Muay Thai or boxing as a major supplement in thier fighting.

As far as everyone else's response. Sounds like Wing Chun:
- Uses a staggered stance with the body turned diagonally much as a boxer, kickboxer, or Muay Thai fighter would.
- Develops power with full body rotation pivoting on the supporting foot and rotating the hips into the hit as do all activities that require full power development.
- Spars hard with full contact to the head, face, abdominal area, and legs as a regular part of the training.
- Fights effectively at long and medium ranges (without having to use boxing or kickboxing to supplement these ranges), as well as short range.
- Doesn't dictate having the center of the body having to face the opponent.
-Doesn't spend a significant amount of time on "dead" training such as forms or hitting a stationary target at less than full power.


Hmmm... looks like my critique was wrong.

[CHEUNG-WINGCHUN]

man i've done kickboxing and wingchun as well, they both have pro's and con's

overall wingchun is a much more strategic way of fighting - the biggest benefit of this? YOU DONT HAVE TO TRAIN AS HARD AS A MUAY THAI FIGHTER TO BE EFFECTIVE IN DEFENDING YOURSELF

training muay thai hard for 1 month gave me an infected prostate so bad, that i almost thought i had prostate cancer, it was simple too much for my body to handle

wingchun on the other hand still makes me sweat, but im getting healthier, not worn down

different strokes for different folks

[CFT]

Originally posted by Ernie
wing chun is just a training system to develop certian attributes that are highly effective at the right range and the right timeErnie, you've got to the heart of the matter without having to resort to specifics, e.g. type of stance, footwork, weight distribution, etc.

That's why I enjoy reading your posts. I hope they keep on coming .....

[quiet man]

Wing Chun, by virtue of being restricted by Centerline theory, is compelled to fight in close range only.

I hear this all the time and I still don't understand it (I'm speaking in general - not as a specific answer to Knifefighter or anybody else). People from various styles come to my kwoon and say "Yes, yes, WC is very good at short range combat, but my style is better in long range", then my sifu wipes the floor with them, and upon leaving they still mutter to themselves something about ranges (some people just never learn). I mean, you are either in range (i.e. you can touch your opponent - fist, elbow, knee, foot or what have you) or you are not.

That being said, I think in WC, there's a danger in overtraining FIGHTING in range and neglecting GETTING in range. I think I can handle things after first contact, but it's surviving the first contact that worries me (in my personal case, not as a general WC problem). Any good advice?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
The way I do chi sau is is not sparring as you said it was. It teaches forward energy and how to react to different types of contact. You have to learn how to start from a random pre-contact stage and then the principles of chi sau can be applied. Which means you have to do what you probably consider sparring. Tis' not the circling ,flailing hands you may think. I plan on taping some chi sau techinques and show you how they can be applied to real situtations. You'll be seeing them here soon.
http://www.wck-media.co.uk
Then you'll be enlightened my friend.
Phil I don't know... here's what I saw on that site:

- Chi Sao that looked just like the "steering wheel slap fighting" that I remember.
- All forms, Chi Sao, or Mook Jong work. Where’s the sparring?
- A lot of square stances.
- Even worse than square stances- square stances while pigeon towed.
- A significant amount of things that didn’t bear a whole lot resemblance to the way things go down in actual fights.

If what I saw there is representative of the majority of Wing Chun training, my original criticism stands.

It's kind of funny that everyone seems to think that I am clueless about WC, but the videos on that site seem to be pretty much exactly the way I remember doing it.

[CHEUNG-WINGCHUN]

Both Phil Redmond and myself do Traditional Wing Chun, which is fairly different to most other types of Wing Chun, So Your information is probably based on a different (although similar) martial art altogether

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by CHEUNG-WINGCHUN
Both Phil Redmond and myself do Traditional Wing Chun, which is fairly different to most other types of Wing Chun, So Your information is probably based on a different (although similar) martial art altogether Uh... If his WC is different, then why is he referring me to that site? And wasn't that his teacher, William Cheung, demonstrating many of those techniques? Has he changed what he learned from Mr. Cheung? Or does Mr. Cheung teach a different type of WC than what he was demonstrating on that site?

[reneritchie]

Planes are distinctly inferior.

They have small tires which are not really suitable to roll over most types of surfaces, including pot-holed roads in the north.

They aren't very maneuverable, making it hard to turn around corners, and forget about trying to park at the mall, let along parallel on city streets.

You can't fit through many modern highway underpasses or tunnels because of those stupid wings, and if you try to go too fast, you lose traction on the ground.

Also, the doors are so high, you can't reach them from curbside.

I don't know why anyone would every drive around in a plane.

[CFT]

Rene,

You've lost me! Have you posted to the wrong forum?
I was looking forward to a well thought out rebuttal to Knifefighter's comments. Which is not to detract from the responses so far.

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Knifefighter,
What you really wanted to see was sparring, not the progression of training that leads to sparring. Am I right? I have no videos of actual sparring at the present but if you look here at the,
Example of Chi Sao Application at the bottom of this page; http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/woodchi.asp#chi
maybe you'll see what I'm talking about. The goal of my site was to give people outside of WC and beginners in our system a look at the mechanics of WC. I never planned on showcasing "fights' for other WC people. Also, if you'll notice the techniques with William Cheung he moves to the blindside. Both one arm and two arm Chi sau start out square on. We then progress to cross arm chi sau with is probably more in line with what you would call sparring preparation. We start random sparring from crossarm before we progress to pre-contact sparring. Most MAs have forms, even Muay Thai. BTW we don't stand pigeon toed.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Knifefighter,
One more thing, the circular movements in Chi Sau teach how to re-direct an incoming force and move to the blindside. Though it may look like it to the untrained eye we don't just just roll around in a circle aimlessly. We are using forward intent so that when an opening is perceived we exploit it. Strategy is also involved. On the other hand I do agree with some of the things you posted. Like Ernie, said you put a lot of thought provoking points in it.

[Gangsterfist]

Knifefighter:

You bring up some valid points about your view, and its good to question things and yourself, especially when training in martial arts. The problem is that this looks like another unilateral thought about wing chun. Granted, a lot of wing chun practitioners may think like the way you posted. The thing is any good system of martial arts there comes the baggage of those who think their style is absolute. I am not a sifu like some on this forum. I am just a practitioner. I have trained several styles of martial arts over the years and found wing chun to really be one of the better ones. I have taken kick boxing, ryukyu kempo okinawan karate, akido, TKD, taiji yang family, and some judo. All of those systems have science and structure behind them just like wing chun. All of them have answers to lots of combat situations. In my personal experience wing chun has some of the most practical answers. By practical I mean techniques that do not require years of special training to perform, and are effecient. Just to clear up some things about wing chun (and a lot of people may disagree with this) I will comment on what you stated:


Power Development:
Power development is an extremely important component of unarmed fighting. Body rotation plays a pivotal role in the development of power and can be illustrated by observing activities that require maximum power (i.e. golf drives; baseball homerun hits; baseball and football throws; discuss, javelin, and shotput throws; tennis strokes).

Since Centerline theory dictates that Wing Chun fighters keep the center of their bodies facing their opponents, they are unable to realize the maximum power development allowed by full body rotation.

Boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai, on the other hand, have no such constraints and make full use of body rotation in delivering their strikes. So much power is developed by these types of rotational mechanics that several of these fighters are routinely killed in the ring and in training each year.

You are right in one sense, but let me clear up some things about your statement. The structure behind WCK allows for close range power release. This does take a while to develope but once you feel it, it all makes sense. As for the centerline, that is true in theory, however, sometimes you are more worried about your opponet's centerline than your own. The bong sao is a perfect example. You never hold it long and if you applied right on your center line with out any kind of adjustment or foot work, it would not work. You do face off facing your opponet from the front, but not always. Centerline theory is not straight at your opponet, it is usually at angles protecting your body from your opponet's.

Next you talk about vulnerability to attacks from a front nuetral stance. Here in lies one of the theories of WCK. Way back in kung fu history very old shaolin styles had side stance fighting. Where one would always face your opponet from your side, keeping all your vital areas protected by your structure and making them real hard targets to hit. This has one major flaw, any attack from the back side will be heavily telegraphed. Wing chun likes to make its attacks less telegraphed. So we do face more directly towards our opponets. This allows all of our weapons to be able to fire at our opponet.

Mobility is a big thing in fighting I agree. Wing chun footwork is debated among lineages and very different from WCK person to person depending on lineage. If you want my honest opinion about this, WCK footwork is a great foundational foot work system. I think however, you should also learn some type of JKD or boxing type foot work for speed. Sometimes you might want speed over power. However, WCK footwork is good. I think that one thing that is overlooked in your statement is how 50/50 footwork is really applied. No way are you going to stay completely 50/50 in a fight, there are too many variables for that to be absolute. What is really great about being 50/50 is the fact that you are already in an optimal position to change stances and foot work. From the 50/50 position I can change into a cat stance, or horse stance, or bow and arrow stance faster. This also makes both limbs move at the same rate. When 50/50 its faster to post and kick because both legs are already evenly weighted, so you can use either limb and equal speeds.

Range, can be medium long or short. Long range typically is use as a bridge creating move to close the empty gap between you and your opponet. Optimal range for wing chun would be medium to short range, but long range definately is not out of the question. The thing about long range attacks is that they have to be somewhat committed becuase of the space between you and your opponet. Wing chun generally does not really advocate overcommitting to attacks.


Full-contact combative contests such as the K-1 kickboxing events and the Pride and UFC mixed martial arts competitions attract many of the world’s top combat athletes. These events allow participants to test themselves and their training against the best, as well as to make future modifications to their training depending on their successes or failures.

Wing Chun practitioners, by and large, have been relatively unsuccessful in modifying their system to be able to compete under the rules and with the equipment required in these types of contests.

Boxing and Muay Thai have been able to successfully modify their arts to fit the constraints of sporting venues. While kickboxing was developed largely as a ring sport, boxing and Muay Thai were originally designed to be used with no safety equipment, such as gloves, and very few, if any, rules. Over the years, both boxing and Muay Thai have adjusted well to a variety of rule and equipment changes. Muay Thai has successfully adjusted a variety of its techniques, such as the behind the neck grip in the plumb position, to allow for the interference of protective gloves on gripping ability. A variety of boxers, kickboxers, and Muay Thai fighters have also crosstrained in grappling and groundfighting and have been regularly successful at competing in MMA events.

I disagree with this statement. There are plenty of competitors that train in wing chun, they just cross train. Ring fighting and real fighting are different. Ground fighting in real life ends in breaks and other nasty bits (gouging, fish hooks, ear ripping, etc) and in the ring it ends in submission moves. Two completely different fights. There is even a difference between muay thai the martial art, and muay thai the sport.

About chi sao. Chi sao is not sparring, and its not combat. Chi sao is a tool that helps build up energies and muscle memory. Chi sao is very dynamic and can be looked at as a fight in a few certain aspects. One aspect is you will never have the same fight twice just like you will never have the same chi sao twice. Chi sao also builds up ideas and energies which the practitioner can use and feel. I have used chi sao while on the ground in sparring situations. I could not see my opponet because I was side mounted on my back side, but I felt him move in on me and I knew what he was going to try to do me based on how he moved in. I was able shrimp over with this arm between my legs and clenched it to an armbar. Thanks to chi sao I acted upon his action, I did not react. A reaction would have been too long of a time and I would have gotten pounded or joint locked. I acted before he could clench anything on me, that is one thing chi sao is good for.

Muay Thai is a good system and if you prefer it, then train it. I know a few muay thai guys and I like to play around and spar a bit with them. Its really an effective fighting system, not to mention combat tested. So is wing chun however. My sifu trained with someone from the sonny tang system (I could be wrong about lineage I don't remember exactly) who used a combination of wing chun and muay thai and he trained both. He was apparently a really good fighter over in Hong kong, unfortunately I never had the opportunity to meet or train with him.
The only disagreement I have with Muay Thai, is that it overcommits just a bit.

One of the problems is some wing chun practitioners are not science savy people and they eat up all this theory behind wing chun. I work in the IT field and when I am fixing computers and other peripherals I could easily just make up some technical jargin as I go with my clients and most of them wouldn't know if I was telling them the truth or not. This is because most of them are not computer savy people. So whenever you spit out a bunch of science to non scientific people its going to turn out like what your views were sometimes.

[marcus_pasram]

Hi Knifefighter,

I think more people should look at what they do realistically and critically. Its important to meet different martial artists and exchange knowledge or get a different perspective. I used to practice wing chun like you described in your original message. I wish I could have been more openminded and explore the art instead of the myths. Nowadays, I really appreciate constructive feedback.

There are snapshots (http://www.wingchunnyc.com/html/photobook/panyu_training_camp/index.html) in our gallery of Wing Chun students during friendly sparring sessions with an extermely experienced Muay Thai fighter in the Panyu training camp in China. You might also want to check out the daily training photos (http://www.wingchunnyc.com/html/photobook/our_school/index.html). There is a series of pictures in there where Jones demonstrates some different Wing Chun fighting stances... and some of the techniques (http://www.wingchunnyc.com/techniques/ms_media/interceptingkick2.htm) we practice daily. You'll see us practicing techniques from different starting postures (jong). Navigate thru them by clicking on prev/next.

Here is an excerpt from an article by my SiFu describing the Wing Chun Syllabus. The full article is here (http://www.wingchunnyc.com/html/articles/Essence.htm)


A basic description of the Wing Chun syllabus contains the three open hand forms of Siu Lim Tau (Little Imagination), Chum Kiu (Seeking the Bridge), Biu Jee (Thrusting Fingers), Chi Sau (Sticky Hands), and the Mok Yan Jong (Wooden Dummy Form). There are also the weapon forms for the Luk Dim Boon Guan (Long Pole) and the Baht Jam Doa (Double Knives).

It is a common misconception that one completes the art of Wing Chun after learning the above syllabus. There is actually much more to Wing Chun than just this. Just regarding the forms, there is an additional dummy form for the eight Wing Chun kicks called Buhn Jee Jong (tri-pole kicking dummy). Also various dummy forms for the Long Pole and Double Knives must be trained. And still, even after learning all of the forms and sticky hand drills, one cannot yet claim to have learned the whole Wing Chun system.

For instance, learning Chi Sau (Sticky Hands) is more of a stepping-stone that prepares one for training fighting applications. Chi Sau trains one's reflex, sensitivity, coordination, mobility, and non-stop movement. Chi Sau also trains one in the concept of coverage, which is important for simultaneous offense and defense.

I would also like to stress that the forms alone cannot be employed as-is for fighting. Even after one has learned all the forms, one must employ "Chahk Kuen" and "Chahk Jong". These two terms mean to break down the individual techniques and movements contained within the forms, and recombine them with other techniques/movements for application in fighting. In addition, Wing Chun has special training methods called "Dah San Jong" and "Dah Wai" which employ the recombined techniques from "Chahk Kuen" and "Chahk Jong". "Dah San Jong" means to apply the recombined techniques on a "live dummy". The "live dummy" is an opponent who will attack you using different techniques, both from Wing Chun or from other styles. "Dah Wai" is similar to "Dah San Jong" except the Wing Chun practicioner is confronted with more than one opponent.

The recombined techniques may appear different from how they are played in the forms. This is because the forms are just a rudimentary foundation to Wing Chun, just like the English alphabet is to the English language. For example, the letter "B" holds no inherent meaning on its own. But when combined with the letters "A" and "T", the three letters can spell out the word "BAT". This word may contain several different meanings. If one rearranges the order of the letters, another word (“TAB”), with different meanings and applications, can be spelled. It is also necessary to point out that no one letter is more important than another. A similar approach holds true for the forms in Wing Chun. No one form is more important or more advanced than the next. No one can speak English just with the alphabet alone. There are other factors that affect a language, such as vocabulary, grammar, and syntax. As such, no one can fight in a form because fighting involves more than just forms.

As "Chahk Kuen" is important to better understand the application of some techniques in the forms, "Chahk Jong" is also very important for understanding the Mok Yan Jong (Wooden Dummy Form). The techniques from the Wooden Dummy Form also cannot be applied as in the form when fighting. This is because, unlike a fighting opponent, the wooden dummy is inanimate. Although it has two arms and one leg, the arms and leg cannot move, even when they are hit. Nor will they hit you back. It follows, then, that the application of technique in the form must again be different from that employed in actual fighting.

Many techniques in fighting application are completely beyond what one may imagine when attempting to interpret the forms. As we start to see this amazing progression from form to fighting, we begin to realize how ingenious the previous generations of Wing Chun practitioners must have been in designing these techniques centuries ago.

In addition to “Chahk Kuen”, “Chahk Jong”, “Dah San Jong”, and “Dah Wai”, Wing Chun also has many other exercises and training methods. Although all based upon scientific principles, the actual training does not require sophisticated equipment. These training methods are for the sake of developing “Gung Lek”. Unfortunately there has been much effort in mystifying this concept. “Gung Lek” is a method of generating a specific type of power. For example, a power-lifter’s legs are specifically trained to lift large amounts of weight. In contrast, a runner’s legs are also very strong but are trained more for speed and endurance. “Gung Lek” training in Wing Chun is designed to maximize the power and speed of Wing Chun techniques. If one does not have the physical ability to back up technical prowess, then one has but a mere shell of a martial art. As such, the Chinese have a famous martial arts saying, “Lien Kuen But Lien Gung Doh Lo Yut Cheung Hung”. This can be translated as “If you diligently practice your martial art with Gung Lek, you will have substance in your kung-fu, instead of an empty shell and a dream of what you could have been in your twilight years”.

Also, an extremely useful resource is SiFu Duncan Leung's messageboard. (http://www.dream-tools.com/tools/messages.mv?index+wingchun) SiFu Leung regularly answers questions posed to him.
If I were in LA, I'd love to get together too!

/marcus

[AndrewS]

Knifefighter,

Saturday and Sunday afternoons have worked out pretty well for people in the past. Let's find out when Dave McKinnon is gonna be up next, try to coordinate some dates.

Later,

Andrew

[captain]

i like judo,but i went to learn some wing chun and was amazed/scared.the effectiveness of the bong sau,was
instant.there was much of value in this style.what wck might
need,is a big public success.however,im sure its saved the
bacon of more than a few folks from time to time.

russell.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
BTW we don't stand pigeon toed.Then why is there a clip of a person demonstrating a form while standing pigeon-towed?

As far as the rest of the clips on the site, they are perfect examples of my criticisms. Sparring was only one of my critiques.

[Gangsterfist]

In the yee jee ken yueng ma (sp?) stance does stand pigeon toed (in some lineages). That is only really mainly in the first form, and when transfering from one stance to another in other forms. It is a training stance and not a fighting stance. It can be used to analyze actual combat movements. When you execute a movement and want to test if its in the center and properly stuctured you can slowly drop back to a YJKYM and see how the movement looks. It also helps build a strong root and energies (chi flow) through out the body. No one would fight pigeon toed, just train that way

[quiet man]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Then why is there a clip of a person demonstrating a form while standing pigeon-towed?

Because that's the stance (Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma) for Siu Lim Tau and basic exercises. Chum Kiu and Biu Jee incorporate footwork and don't use YJKYMA.

That's just an exercise, Knifefighter. It develops leg muscles, structure, and many other things, but it's not a fighting stance.
Boxers skip rope for training, but they don't do it in the ring, do they?
I hope you find a skilled WC practitioner to show you what WC is really about.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
In the yee jee kuen yueng ma (sp?) stance does stand pigeon toed (in some lineages). That is only really mainly in the first form, and when transfering from one stance to another in other forms. It is a training stance and not a fighting stance. And that is exactly one of my criticisms- specificity of training. Boxers, kickboxers, and Muay Thai fighters start out using the same stances, strikes, and movements they will always be doing. They never have to change and rewire their neuromuscular connections for real fighting applications.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by quiet man
Boxers skip rope for training, but they don't do it in the ring, do they?
Boxers skip rope as a conditioning supplement to their boxing. Jumping rope is not taught as part of the boxing curriculum. Jumping rope is done before the boxing workout, to warm up the muscles or after the boxing workout as a conditioning exercise, in place of or in addition to their other conditioning training. It is no more a part of boxing than are their running or weight lifting workouts.

[Gangsterfist]

The YJKYM stance can also be seen as a conditioning tool. Holding the stance for long periods of time does help train your stance and structure. The stance is designed to help a beginer advance to the advanced part of the art. Its a base, a foundation if you will. When people train in kickboxing or Muay Thai they cannot perfrom the higher level techniques with out the proper training. You must learn to crawl before you can walk, that is what its doing.

To answer why its always trained the way it is from day one is because its still a sporting event with rules and regulations. In a real fight there are no rules and regulations that is why some wing chun training and MT or kick boxing will be different. If you were to train Muay Thai for real combat outside of the ring it would probably be different.

[reneritchie]

You've lost me! Have you posted to the wrong forum?

No, it was the correct response to knife-fighter's troll. WCK is different in kind from kickboxing, as a plane is different in kind from an automobile, even though both are intended for the same general purpose (fighting and transportation respectively).

However, it is true (and you can see from some responses) that many people nowadays want to use WCK as a form of kickboxing albeit with different tools. IMHO, therein is the confusion and problems.

WCK is about as useful for kickboxing as TKD is for olympic wrestling. To make it fit that mould, it is altered to the extent that it becomes neither--no longer WCK yet not as good for kickboxing as MT.

Sorta like taking your lear jet out onto the highway for a spin...

[KingMonkey]

Sorry Rene I dont really buy that.

WC and MMA both have the same starting point and the same goal.

Two human beings with similar attributes.
One of these attempting to use a system of movements, principles to physically destroy the other.

With this contextualizing the debate I dont see why a discussion on which art or aspects of the art might lead it to be inferior is unreasonable.

Having said that I think further discussion here is a bit redundant. A perfectly nice offer to cross train has been made by some WC guys.
I think Knifefighter should take them up on their offer and report back after - no more mouthboxing needed.

[Phil Redmond]

This statement,

>>Originally posted by Knifefighter
Then why is there a clip of a person demonstrating a form while standing pigeon-towed?<<

shows you have limted knowledge on the WC family, (and I don't mean it in a negative way). Most WC people know that TWC (Traditional Wing Chun) does not advocate a pigeon toed stance. We stand with our feet parallel to each other. I uploaded one of the two Chu Shong Tin clips where he has a pigeon toed stance. There are many different lineages of WC. Mine is different from his. In boxing skipping rope is also used for timing drills and not simply warming up. There was show on Muay Thai on the Canadian History Channel that showed Thai forms and training methods. One thing said on this show was that Muay Thai the fighting art and Muay Thai boxing are very different. I'll presume you base your info on Muay Thai the sport.

[Ultimatewingchun]

KingMonkey's advice for Knifefighter should really just wrap up this entire thread, IMO - unless of course some folks just love being trolled...

"I think Knifefighter should take them up on their offer (AndrewS) and report back later - no more mouthboxing needed."


AMEN.

[old jong]

Rene is correct 110%

[Ernie]

you know it's funny how people see this as a trolling post by knifefighter ,
i didn't take it that way at all , just seems to me he voiced some of the problems that happen to alot of wing chun people [ myself included ] when you step out of the chi sau bubble and get infront of some one that is skilled at some thing else and is doing there best to apply there skill .

often times you will get dropped and go back to the lab and question what you have been told would work .


now that might make you loss heart or feel like you have been lied to or whatever

just natural human response


it sucks when you get all gassed up and you put time money and emotion/ belief in something

and you can't even deal with a jab or a thai kick

i would get ****ed to

but for me it just spring boarded an honest assesment of my skills , strengths weakness and so on

i stopped looking for this or that ''way'' or '' sifu '' to hold my hand
just kept going in and learning from experience , looking at myself and pin pointing what i was missing , why i couldn't pull of the pak or whatever

then went back to the drills and dialed in that particular attribute

went back in the ring and tried again over and over and over

it just comes down to how bad you want it ,how stubborn you are , or in my case i was just to dumb to quit


:D

everytime something doesn't work it's no bodies, no styles fault , or sifu's fault but your own , it's a wonderful oppertunity to advance

[Phil Redmond]

Ernie wrote;

you know it's funny how people see this as a trolling post by knifefighter,i didn't take it that way at all , just seems to me he voiced some of the problems that happen to alot of wing chun people [ myself included ] when you step out of the chi sau bubble and get infront of some one that is skilled at some thing else and is doing there best to apply there skill .

I didn't see it as trolling either. In fact (and unfortunately), lots of what he said is true about WC in general. He brought up some good points based what he feels about WC. I don't feel attacked in anyway by his post. To me WC is simply one of the tools in my tool box.

[Ernie]

phil
don't you think those problems are just common learning experiences when you leave the comfort zone of your usual training partners and school

kind of like when you learn to drive you have all these idea's and [ structure ] on how to hold the wheel and sit and look in your mirriors and so on
and yes you can function to some degree on the real roads but soon enough things get tossed at you that you were not ready for
it might seem overwhelming and through it all you try and maintain your [ image of what perfect structure looks like ]

but things tend to happen on there own terms and at the oddest times
so you can become frustrated trying to maintain this illusion in it's static form

but eventually you adapt and then you see the real [ structure and flow ] that is under the illusion

an expression of an action for only the instant it is needed


now you can drive with one hand on the wheel , talk on the cell phone and flip the radio dial like it's no big deal

[anerlich]

"I think Knifefighter should take them up on their offer (AndrewS) and report back later - no more mouthboxing needed."

I'll do all the mouth boxing around here, thank you :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie, Phil:

Since I know that the origin of this thread were my posts about wing chun being better than kickboxing - and Catch being better than BJJ (which really pi##ed him off) - I view this thread as a trolling experience: "WHY WING CHUN IS INFERIOR" ??!! LOL.

Ordinarily...as you guys know - I would look upon a subject like this as something of an opportunity.

Perhaps a thought for a new thread is emerging...but without the obvious attempt at provocation and sh#t stirring controversy.


To be continued somewhere else...

[marcus_pasram]

Hi Ernie,

Nice attitude. I wish I had it during my early years of training. It took me a while to develop that open-minded attitude. Before I used to be like the the frog that landed on a balance scale and got fooled by its own weight. Now I always look for an opportunity to learn from other martial artists.

/marcus



Originally posted by Ernie
you know it's funny how people see this as a trolling post by knifefighter ,
i didn't take it that way at all , just seems to me he voiced some of the problems that happen to alot of wing chun people [ myself included ] when you step out of the chi sau bubble and get infront of some one that is skilled at some thing else and is doing there best to apply there skill .

often times you will get dropped and go back to the lab and question what you have been told would work .


now that might make you loss heart or feel like you have been lied to or whatever

just natural human response


it sucks when you get all gassed up and you put time money and emotion/ belief in something

and you can't even deal with a jab or a thai kick

i would get ****ed to

but for me it just spring boarded an honest assesment of my skills , strengths weakness and so on

i stopped looking for this or that ''way'' or '' sifu '' to hold my hand
just kept going in and learning from experience , looking at myself and pin pointing what i was missing , why i couldn't pull of the pak or whatever

then went back to the drills and dialed in that particular attribute

went back in the ring and tried again over and over and over

it just comes down to how bad you want it ,how stubborn you are , or in my case i was just to dumb to quit


:D

everytime something doesn't work it's no bodies, no styles fault , or sifu's fault but your own , it's a wonderful oppertunity to advance

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Planes are distinctly inferior.

They have small tires which are not really suitable to roll over most types of surfaces, including pot-holed roads in the north.

They aren't very maneuverable, making it hard to turn around corners, and forget about trying to park at the mall, let along parallel on city streets.

You can't fit through many modern highway underpasses or tunnels because of those stupid wings, and if you try to go too fast, you lose traction on the ground.

Also, the doors are so high, you can't reach them from curbside.

I don't know why anyone would every drive around in a plane. Based on the technology that was available at the time, horse and buggies once were an efficient mode of transportation. These days most people used automobiles, motorcycles, or bicycles.

[Knifefighter]

Well- my title was definitely a troll. Gotta get those readers to open the book.

If anything was a troll it was UWC's assertion that WC is superior to kickboxing, since he backed that statement up with no qualifiers or data at all. I would also argue that his post about the superiority of Catch was a troll also, and, while my upcoming analysis of Catch and BJJ is an attempt to stir things up a bit, its not a troll.

My analysis of WC is the same thing and is my honest observations comparing and contrasting WC methods with boxing, kickboxing and Muay Thai (I think six or seven years of Wing Chun training, some of that with one of Yip Man's students, qualifies me to do an analysis of this type). Based on what the majority of people are posting here and what is shown on the site listed by Phil R., I stick by original criticisms of the way traditional WC is trained.

If you can watch the clips on that site and honestly say that a big part of your training has not been composed of things that look much like that, then my criticism does not apply to you.

[Edmund]

Frankly everyone has been more generous to Knifefighter than he deserves.

He talks net-trash like he's too good for anyone to teach him anything and gets an invitation to train with Andrew.

Doesn't seem fair somehow.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Edmund
He talks net-trash like he's too good for anyone to teach him anything... Well, somebody has to keep things interesting around here.

[Simon]

I think it comes down to your degree of intention and that of your training partner(s). if you train against half hearted attacks, whether pre-determined drills or sparring - you're wasting your time (unless you are just learning the drills). my impression of boxing gyms etc (and this is not based on experience - anyone feel free to correct me ;) ) is that students are thrown in the deep end with sparring/realistic training earlier and that's why they develop a sparring ability earlier.

If you are training with someone who is giving you a realistic situation to defend yourself against then (no matter what you train) you will find what works within your system in an efficient way.

I think we've gotta rely on our own judgement a little more rather than what a system prescribes. I personally find wing chun very effective, and rarely very venture outside the most basic techniques in sparring.

[Edmund]

Interesting for you to the detriment of WC people legitimately discussing & promoting WC (e.g. Alan Orr, Victor etc). Guess the world revolves around giving you attention instead because you complained the hardest.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Edmund
Interesting for you to the detriment of WC people legitimately discussing & promoting WC (e.g. Alan Orr, Victor etc). Guess the world revolves around giving you attention instead because you complained the hardest. That's what your "Ignore" button is for. Use it if you don't like my posts.

Or, even better, read a book on how to debate. Then you can post rebuttals to my various points instead of making personal comments.

[Phil Redmond]

Knifefighter wrote:

If you can watch the clips on that site and honestly say that a big part of your training has not been composed of things that look much like that, then my criticism does not apply to you.
I can honestly say that what you saw is not a "big" part of MY training. It's just the alphabet. I haven't uploaded any words or sentences yet.

[straight blast]

One component of Wing Chun training is comprised of performing preset forms. Unfortunately, real fighting does not usually allow for the performance of predetermined movements, one after another in a specific sequence.

Wow...rarely have I ever seen so much ignorance in one quote. I was going along with some of it until I read that one.

Who told you that the forms were movements to be used one after another??? :confused:

It would be physically impossible to fight someone by "Sil lum Tao"ing them!

Not a bad post but a little research wouldn't hurt either :rolleyes:

[Edmund]

Just tried the Ignore feature and it works a treat.

Unfortunately, well intentioned WCers are still quoting Knifighter's 6 years of enlightened WC study.

I'll resist the urge to scoff at that idea and just state a lot of this good will would be better directed towards someone who is actually honest and has an interest in WC.

Andrew, if this guy ever makes the effort and meets with you I'll humbly retract my statement.

[Keng Geng]

Hey guys,

Let's be reasonable... Don't you think what he is saying is reasonable given the ignorant mind? I look at a lot of Wing Chun that exists today and see exactly what he's stating. The popular understanding of Wing Chun is as he has suggested. Fortunately, for myself and many others on this forum, all or most of what he suggests does not apply.

Can't one read his post and say "Yeah... I can totally understand why he would think that...." ?

[Edmund]

I understand. I just don't consider it a constructive discussion.
Same applies to Knifefighters other troll thread about Catch Wrestling.

He wanted to have an argument with WC people. He succeeded.
I'm sure he's very happy he's generated responses. No doubt he's feeling quite superior about provoking them (including mine).

If he meets Andrew, I shall comence caring.

[PaulH]

Regarding the theory of centerline, there was a good article about it written by Leung Man To. You may find this in the appendices section of "The Combat Philosophy of Wong Shun Leung" written by David Peterson.

I found these following points particularly insightful:

1. Quantitative superiority of using both hands against his one hand.

2. Both hands can be used independently or in combination.

3. Both hands can cooperate with each other in attack and defense.

4. By correctly facing the opponent and point to his "centerline", one can attack the vital areas of the opponent more easily and with greater effect with both hands.

5. By attacking the opponent's center of mass, both hands can "execute multiple devastating attacks within the shortest time". Economy of motion, directness, speed and practicality are inherent in such method.

6. Chi Sau not only develops sensitivity and reflexes of the hands, but also loosen your opponent's defense and find those open areas, thus applying the principle of "Intercept what comes; pursue what departs; when the hands are free of obstructions, attack instinctively.

7. Chi Sau offers the basis of "using no form to win any form"

There are more meat to this skeleton framework, but I leave it to the readers to do the responsible thing - get your own copy and leave us in peace. Ha! Ha!

Regards,
PH

[Yung Apprentice]

Boxers skip rope as a conditioning supplement to their boxing


In my JKD class, my teacher would have us in a horse stance for 15 mintues, with our hands in a sort of praying position, to help condition our legs. I remember that a weight lifter came in once, a very arrogant beginner, who was bragging about his leg strength, (and the guy had some amazing legs muscles) he couldn't last 10 minutes.

[KenWingJitsu]

Hey.

Regars to trollign or not,, I have found Knifefighter to be one of the more open-minded contibutors to the site. And like my twin brothere Ernie, I agree that most of your criticisms are very very very valid.

Wing Chun is NOT superior to Kickboxing....but guess what...Kickboxing is NOT superior to Wing Chun. There is NO SUPERIOR style. There are only superior training methods.

I can direct everyone here to "kickboxing schools" where all they do is crunches and Tae-bo (Thai-bo ? lol). Those guys never hit anything or get hit back or ever spar.....just as bad and what passes for 95% of "Wing Chun".

I can also show you Wing Chun schools who train, spar hit, get hit and can actuially fight. Not the norm, but are difinitely out there. Just as god as what passes for 95% of "kickboxing". ;-)

KF, definitely take Andrew up on his offer, I'm usually there weekends, and we play nice, but real. Ernie has been known to bite people, but I promise we'll put a muzzle on him when he comes down.

Dhira

[captain]

although it is true,that a big wck success would shut up the "experts",the wck i saw was fast/brutal and fantastic.
as many women in the class as men too.that is important.

still,id like to know why r and r isnt a fan of jjj?

[Edmund]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu

Regars to trollign or not,, I have found Knifefighter to be one of the more open-minded contibutors to the site.

When he shows that on the WC forum let me know.

No, I think he just enjoys posting. Anyone can say they are interested in WC. Pretend to want to discuss, create dialogue, ask questions etc.

He's was offended that Victor said WC is superior to kickboxing and rather than ask him about it, he had to make the "Why WC is inferior to kickboxing" thread to get more people to post.

[AndrewS]

Knifefighter, Dhira, Ernie, Dave McKinnon,


I'll e-mail Dave to get him in on this at some point.

Good dates for me coming up- March 27, April 3,4,10,17,18

Ed,

when are you gonna make it back through LA?

Andrew

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Edmund


When he shows that on the WC forum let me know.

No, I think he just enjoys posting. Anyone can say they are interested in WC. Pretend to want to discuss, create dialogue, ask questions etc.

He's was offended that Victor said WC is superior to kickboxing and rather than ask him about it, he had to make the "Why WC is inferior to kickboxing" thread to get more people to post.

KF is open minded...he just doesn't believe everything he sees because someone on a forum said it...using this thread as an example, if somesays that one art is inferior to another, he's gonna ask you to prove it to him, and he will in turn do the same.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Yung Apprentice



In my JKD class, my teacher would have us in a horse stance for 15 mintues, with our hands in a sort of praying position, to help condition our legs. I remember that a weight lifter came in once, a very arrogant beginner, who was bragging about his leg strength, (and the guy had some amazing legs muscles) he couldn't last 10 minutes.

his legs were indeed stronger than yours. stance training isn't a strength exercise, but an endurance exercise.

We didn't do stance training when I was in jun fan. It was mainly striking, footwork and trapping.

[Gangsterfist]

KF-

Do you currently train Wing Chun? If so, how long have you trained? I looked at your profile and it seems you just trained a few martial arts here and there and never put in the time to really learn a full system.

I understand where you are coming from. I remember my first time ever sparring a white crane practitioner. It was so radically different then what I was used to, I got my butt whooped the first time I sparred him. I then thought, man wing chun isn't all what its cracked up to be. That was because centerline theory did not work that well against him. He wanted me to attack his center and use swallowing white crane techniques to his advantage and it worked. I learned something very valuable about real fight situations. I no longer sparr with strict wing chun minded attacks anymore. I grapple, long range attack with kicks, ground fight etc, because I may need it if one of my main strengths as a fighter does not work.

Now after my cross training stuff I went right back to wing chun. My wing chun is now better and things make more sense to me now as a fighter. I can apply my wing chun with more confidence because I know if it doesn't work I got more tricks up my sleeve.

One of the most beneficial things about cross training with wing chun is that you can apply wing chun theory to another system. It is pretty adaptable and sometimes improves both your corss training and your wing chun.

So, why don't you go try it out with some good wing chunners like those guys out in Cali are offering and see what you think. If you still think its inferior then you are completely intitled to your own opinion, but please base it off facts and personal experience. Ignore all the politics that come with it and ignore lineage, just look at it for what it is, a fighting art.

[Yung Apprentice]

We didn't do stance training when I was in jun fan. It was mainly striking, footwork and trapping.

As is my school, (which isn't Jun Fan) This school did a lot of conditioning, and endurance training.

[SevenStar]

GF,

He wrote earlier that he had done WC for 6 or 7 years...

[yuanfen]

Seven Star- 6 or seven. It was 5 before. The number varies...
of what consistency and frequency and with which sifu?
His knowledge of wing chun in his posts is underwhelming- but then he is not alone.

[PaulH]

Joy,

I think in a way that KF did good in these posts! We learn mostly in adversity. Difficult circumstances bring out the best in people. A few challenges here and there keep WC people on their toes and honest. I won't be too surprised if people learned quite a few new things from his teasing posts so far. So I'm thankful for his lively stirring things up lately.

Regards,
PH

[Edmund]

Originally posted by AndrewS

Ed,

when are you gonna make it back through LA?

Andrew

Andrew,

Unfortunately I haven't taken any trips since last time. Pretty sad as I'd love to visit LA again. Going to ask the boss tomorrow about getting some.

[Stevo]

Something's not right if he's learnt Wing Chun for 6 or 7 years and still thinks the forms are a a set of movements that are meant to be used in sequence in a fight. And also that Chi Sao is just useless circular movements.

Those myths should have been dispelled in the first lesson. What a waste of 6 or 7 years!!

His sincerity or otherwise will be proven by his acceptance or rejection of the offer by the guys in LA.

[AztecaPreist]

To say that any style (or system) is inferior, you have lost already. Because one group trains completly opposite from the way you train do not take it for granted that you are the superior in the confrontation or you will find yourself on the floor. This is not the same as going into a situation with confidence. :rolleyes:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Stevo writes (about Knifefighter):

"His sincerity or otherwise will be proven by his acceptance or rejection of the offer by the guys in LA. "

How right you are.

[AndrewS]

Stevo, Victor,

this isn't a challenge. If the guy wants to check out another way, cool.

Besides, I wanna watch Dhira show a jiujitsu clinic on him.

;-)

Andrew

[htowndragon]

my sifu (does gong bao tian bagua and jook lum mantis, but also learned wingc un and taiji) has a friend in hong kong (chen taiji and wing chun) who went to thailand and faught the muay thai kickboxers. the first time he went, he attempted to block a kick with his bong sao. it hurt so bad he gave up. then he went to his hotel and looked through notes, looking at videos and forming a strategy. a few dasy later he went back to the arena, and he knew what he was going to do. he went in and upon contact, controlled the kickboxers right leg (the strong leg), and was able to take care of him after that.

muay thai kickboxers in thailand kick trees and other conditioning that americans will never go through, so muay thai in america is really not much, in thailand its another story. but after these peopel reach their prime, their health start deteriorating. so whats the point?

[Ultimatewingchun]

AndrewS:

I know you're not challenging him - and my remarks to him are motivated by my desire for him to WANT to see/work with guys who really take the fighting side of wing chun seriously.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Do you currently train Wing Chun? If so, how long have you trained? I looked at your profile and it seems you just trained a few martial arts here and there and never put in the time to really learn a full system.
I trained in WC years ago for 6 or 7 years. At the same time, I was training and competing in boxing and Muay Thai, which I continued to do for a few more years after that. I am a brown belt in BJJ, which I have been doing for about 9 or 10 years now. Between boxing, Muay Thai, stickfighting, MMA/NHB and grappling, I have had over 200 competitive matches. I don't claim to be the best (as a matter of fact I believe that many of my shortcomings as a standup fighting are a direct result of bad habits developed by WC training that I have never been able to rewire), but I think I've paid enough dues to offer some valid opinions in these areas.

[Nick Forrer]

An observation (may/ may not be that relevant)

Many people seem to have a negative approach to their wing chun i.e. they ask how do we deal with a boxers hook, a thai boxers round kick, a choy li fut guys wide arc-ing fists, a wrestlers tackle etc.

Perhaps a more positive approach would be better i.e. instead of asking how do we deal with them, asking how are they going to deal with us- our quick zig zagging footwork, our fast relentless barrage of close range strikes, our uprooting force, our ability to establish another line of attack as soon as the previous one is lost, our craft, our subtelty and our sneakiness.

[CFT]

But Nick, you're subscribing to the "attack is the best form of defence" philosophy which the WC practitioner may not be able to apply, whether it is because of lack of conditioning, skill, etc.

Even if you are "attack" oriented, you're still likely to be attacking their attack, so you need to "deal" with all those things you mention. I imagine that unless you totally outclass your opponent, you're going to have deal with their attacks.

But it's a good point. What you as a WC practioner are doing should be giving the opponent some pause for thought.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Nick Forrer:

Great post ! I'm as guilty as anyone on this. There is so much that Wing Chun does bring to the table - when it's trained right.
I'll tell you a short story:

I trained for 2 hours about six months ago with a jiu-jitsu guy with about 30 years of experience (Both Japanese and Brazilian). He was really excellent. I mainly wanted to see what he had from a pure grappling standpoint - as I mix Catch Wrestling with my Wing Chun.

But the very first "touch/encounter" we had when he tried to come in and grab me for the takedown (as I faced him in TWC stance and ready position) - resulted in me hitting him twice and putting my hand in his face with a finger in his eye. I apologized for the eye strike - it just came out without thinking.

Not that using wing chun striking and footwork will always work against attempted grabs and takedowns (THERE I GO AGAIN)...

but underestimating Wing Chun makes no sense either.

So I actually spent the rest of the session easing off quite a bit with the Wing Chun so that I could mainly see/feel his jiu jitsu.

Now don't get me wrong - knowing a significant amount of counters against takedowns..INCLUDING WRESTLING COUNTERS-
along with Wing Chun moves as part of an anti-grappling strategy - the sum total of all that is still, IMO, the way to train.

But underestimating Wing Chun in these and the other fighting scenarios you described is such a waste of talent...WING CHUN TALENT.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by AndrewS


Besides, I wanna watch Dhira show a jiujitsu clinic on him.
I believe he trains out of Rey Deigo’s, does he not? It will be fun to roll with him. I am especially interested to see how he is managing to incorporate WC into his MMA competitions.

[mortal]

knifefighter I didn't read this whole thread due to time restraints.
Check out the clips on this site www.sifugrados.com. I think it gives a better angle on wing chun actually being used in combat as opposed to just theory and forms.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
I mainly wanted to see what he had from a pure grappling standpoint - as I mix Catch Wrestling with my Wing Chun.

But the very first "touch/encounter" we had when he tried to come in and grab me for the takedown resulted in me hitting him twice and putting my hand in his face with a finger in his eye. You really are a piece of work,aren't you? You tell the guy you are working on pure grappling, then hit him twice and eye jab him. You're lucky he didn't make it a pure vale tudo match after that.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
(as a matter of fact I believe that many of my shortcomings as a standup fighting are a direct result of bad habits developed by WC training that I have never been able to rewire),

Maybe you should sue your Wing Chun sifu for not having taught you well in you 5-6-7(?)... years of Wing Chun?...Or all these mata leo made things a little harder to understand?...;)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
You're lucky he didn't make it a pure vale tudo match after that.

No chance!...Vale tudo usually works best with a referee and a bunch of brothers standing all around. (Just in case!);)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Knifefighter:

Pay closer attention...okay? I said I wanted to see his grappling..I didn't say that I told him in advance that I wouldn't use Wing Chun.

This took place at Keith Mazza's TWC school in New Jersey. This guy was already in awe of Keith as he can't do anything about taking Keith down to the ground...and he can't stop Keith from beating him with TWC striking and footwork. He just walked into the school one day to "check Keith out ".

He's really a good guy, though, and he and Keith became friendly. So when Keith told him I was coming down for a workout - and that I use mix Catch with TWC - he wanted to meet/work with me also.

But it was never understood that I wouldn't use TWC. I don't do that. For me...there's no separation of the two arts anymore. Whatever the situation calls for - I do.

[Gangsterfist]

KF-

Who was your sifu and what lineage of Wing Chun Kuen did you study?

I think if you have 6 or 7 years of wing chun you sould be a pretty proficient stand up fighter. Maybe its your jujutsu training that made you a bad stand up fighter? Did you get through all three open hand forms, the dummy and the weapons in your training?

Then again wing chun may not be for everyone, that is why there are different systems out there. If grappling is what you are good at, then do your jujutsu. One observation I noticed is that you do a lot of competition. Perhaps you were trained to use wing chun for competing and not as a pure combat form? Just some thoughts. Also learning multiple martial arts at the same time can be hard on you and affect your training.

[Ultimatewingchun]

P.S.-

"But it was never understood that I wouldn't use TWC. I don't do that. For me...there's no separation of the two arts anymore. Whatever the situation calls for - I do."

But I UNILATERALLY decided after the first "encounter" to use very little or no TWC - otherwise this would have become just a TWC vs. Jiu-jitsu session. So I decided to go in a different direction - at which point we were basically just comparing grappling notes: sometimes competitively - sometimes not.

Then handshakes and lunch.

And as I've said before...I was VERY IMPRESSED with his jiu-jitsu skill. It's an excellent grappling art.

But I'll stick to Catch.

Does that mean that I don't/won't use some BJJ moves ?

No. In fact I do.

[Nick Forrer]

Another story which hopefully illustrates a point: WSL was once asked by a guy with a lot of MA experience (as well as real life experience of a kind im willing to bet no one on this board has) what you do if someone has you in a standing rear naked choke and has pulled you completley off balance.

WSL responded 'what do you do if someone has a knife in your heart' to which the guy said 'nothing, by then its too late' and WSL said 'exactly.'

[Phenix]

When we have low self image,
When we rely on Some Temple to boost our confident
When we count how many Kiu Saus we know.
When we dont pay attention on what is going on in the real world but trying to explain our way try to forcing solving the real world problem where it can't be done.
When we dont know the details and thinking we know


then one is inferior not WC inferior.




As I heard, WSL once said " using NO Jiu ( Jiu = pre program move, sequence, Kiu Sau....ect) to defeat Jiu is WCK. "
IF we stick at Jiu, we are really stuck in level 1.

Remember:

level one is about structure
level 2 is about motion
level 3 is about penetrate through the physical structure and motion to the energy flow.

Being STUCK in LEVEL 1 and thinking that is the greatest, most original......ect but not progress to level 2 and learn about the technology to level 3 - that is ----- INFERIOR WCner.


just somethought

[Ernie]

level one is about structure
level 2 is about motion
level 3 is about penetrate through the physical structure and motion to the energy flow.


hendrik

consider above statement officially stolen :)

it sum's the exact way i have taught

glad your back sorry you had to leave maui

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ernie
level one is about structure
level 2 is about motion
level 3 is about penetrate through the physical structure and motion to the energy flow.


hendrik

consider above statement officially stolen :)

it sum's the exact way i have taught

glad your back sorry you had to leave maui


You teach WCK? so who stolen from who? :D



after I attain enlightement, I sit in meditation on the Hana's black sand beach and seeing the wave braking and the wave surfing. I come to realize the most advance art. So, I creat this art and call Wind Chan. and my name change to Ngugen Mai. :D

Here on WIND CHAN ........


http://www.kungpowmovie.com/swf/KPmain.html

and you are the chooooosen ONE!

You see how TAN sau should be done and the BIL JEE has to do as one got chicken flu?

[Ernie]

me teach no i just pass on what has been passed to me ha ha

you got me missing maui i tried to get a swim on the black sand beach for the sake of some pictures rough water .

but to look at it now that is something

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ernie


you got me missing maui i tried to get a swim on the black sand beach for the sake of some pictures rough water .




Hey WONG FEI _HUNG was also there trying to push the rough wave. Ofcause his kiu sau end up all wet :D

I sit 20 feet away and alwayssss fun to watch.... hhahahahahaaha


OOOMMMMMM

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Based on the technology that was available at the time, horse and buggies once were an efficient mode of transportation. These days most people used automobiles, motorcycles, or bicycles.

Well if you want to take a trip down into the Grand Canyon a "mule train" is one of your best options.

Anyway it's a false analogy. Muy Thai and Wing Chun are both pretty old.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[PaulH]

Hey Hendrik,

Must be a terrific cultural experience to have your name changed to "Nguyen Mai". Mai interestingly enough is Plum Blossom in Vietnamese. So ... what's cooking, Doc, under the Hawaiian Sun?

Regards,
PH

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hey Hendrik,

Must be a terrific cultural experience to have your name changed to "Nguyen Mai". Mai interestingly enough is Plum Blossom in Vietnamese. So ... what's cooking, Doc, under the Hawaiian Sun?

Regards,
PH


Ng Mui ----> Nguyen Mai

Wing Chun ----> Wind Chan


is the pheonix burn and get enlightent under the Maui's captured Sun? or Brain Damage , cook? :D

[PaulH]

By Mui! You got something there! I fail to draw the connection between Wing Chun and Wind Chan however. Why wind for instance?

[yuanfen]

Paul H- the plum blossom and the lotus are semiotic cousins.
Hey Hendrik- how was Hawaii?
Got stuck in the sand when the waves came after me near the Turtle Bay Hilton- some years ago. YGKYM kept me from being swept- but my leather shoes were sanded. I didnt get a chance to change before catching the plane back--got a lot of dirty looks on the plane<g>
Joy
(BTW.. Joy is the first part of my full name- Joyotpaul- conjugation of Joy and Utpal . Joy=Victory and Utpal in Sanskrit is the lotus. Ergo-- the Victorious Lotus. Where did I go wrong?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Phenix, Ernie:

Level one is about structure ...................... (SLT)

Level two is about motion...........................(Chum Kiu)

Level three is about penetrating through
the physical structure and motion to the
energy flow .................................................( Chi Sao)

Level four


Level five


Level six


Level seven

Fill in the blanks !

[Ernie]

insert any order you like

- real world adaptability / toss out the chi sau frame work

- experience - self realization- honesty

- naturalness - formless expression


- don't know yet still working on the others :D

[Edmund]

Originally posted by htowndragon

muay thai kickboxers in thailand kick trees and other conditioning that americans will never go through, so muay thai in america is really not much, in thailand its another story. but after these peopel reach their prime, their health start deteriorating. so whats the point?

They don't kick trees in Thailand AFAIK.

[old jong]

1: Structure...SLT
Chi sau & drills within this context
2: structure in motion.....Chum kiu
Chi sau & drills within this context
3: Power delivery and angles of attack/defense....Mook jong
Chi sau & drills within this context
4: Power delivery/close contact/......Biu Gee
Chi sau & drills within this context
5: More power delivery/more motions/back to beginning....Weapons
Wing Chun results

[Ultimatewingchun]

No...I can't toss out the chi sao framework...Penetrating through the physical structure and motion to the energy flow is exactly what chi sao does for me - as regards wing chun training.

There are other ways of approaching this energy flow; but within the wing chun context - chi sao has no equal in this regard.

[Ernie]

not toss out wing chun skill
but frame work 2 hands connected in a free fighting adaptive situation

you should be able to aplly the skill of wing chun with out the need for a connection point by this time

that's what i mean

we don't go out to chi sau with out opponent we go out to fight them

i often see people very good at chi sau but once the dis conncet they hunt for a connection despretly instead of just flowing with what ever is going on
or worse rush in blindly like a crazed bull

like frankenstien seeking with both hands out seeking something so they can activate there '' chi sau''


hope that clears things up:cool:

[Phil Redmond]

Edmund,
Some Muay Thai fighters do kick Banana trees like some kickboxers I know from R.D. and Haiti used to do in their home countries. Banana trees are soft on the outside and hard on the inside. I tried it with my shins once in an botanical garden (when no one was looking), so I can see whay they do it.

[Gangsterfist]

1. structure and foundation of basic skills - SLT, single hand chi sao, chain punching

2. Motion, energies, foot work - Chum Kiu, double hand chi sao, more advanced drills that involve chin na.

3. Reality and how it effects your fighting skills, how to penetrate structure - Biu Jee, last ditch effort techniques, refines skills and energies to more advanced level with advanced chi sao.

4. Supplemental forms to refine skills and teach things from different perspective, discovering new energies and new ways to apply them - Dummy, Long pole, knives

5. Unlearning what you have learned, go against your principles and training and see everything from an "outside the box" perspective.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
An observation (may/ may not be that relevant)

Many people seem to have a negative approach to their wing chun i.e. they ask how do we deal with a boxers hook, a thai boxers round kick, a choy li fut guys wide arc-ing fists, a wrestlers tackle etc.

Perhaps a more positive approach would be better i.e. instead of asking how do we deal with them, asking how are they going to deal with us- our quick zig zagging footwork, our fast relentless barrage of close range strikes, our uprooting force, our ability to establish another line of attack as soon as the previous one is lost, our craft, our subtelty and our sneakiness.

Hi Nick,

From my POV, positive affirmations about WC on a WC forum is a good thing. Having a positive attitude is a big part of achieving any goals. So when someone like Vince states that WC is superior to kickboxing it is not directed at kickboxers. This is an affirmation for WC people to share amongst themselves.

Similarly when we *critique* WC amongst ourselves we are seeking constructive discussion and looking to better ourselves. So we can see people raise issues such as conditioning, contact sparring, self-defence scenarios, defending against X or Y and so on. This is also a good thing.

This is a not the same as a troll who does not do or care about WC posting bait. Knifefighter could not care less as to what people say. It won't change anything he does. And WC guys who have to make the effort to respond become more and more defensive. People who are actually interested don't get to discuss as much. For instance, Knifefighter is not going to buy Alan Orr's DVDs. Yet Alan has to respond over and over because he's just got to get his dig in. I fail to see how that is open-mindedness.

People are less likely to open up to each other when trolls are just interjecting with snide remarks.

[Phenix]

I look at it as


level 1: basic mechanics. step sparing, sparing...
SLT ... sets, woodern dummy, chi sau....
capable of accept and sustain
in coming static force with structure or rooting. arm level
skill.


level 2: "cross bow" jing, momentum
handling/absorb/recycling...... all range monentum
jing generation all around body. no delay power issuing,
close range issuing. "taking the place".
SLT ... sets, woodern dummy, chi sau....
close range sparing, capable of accept and sustain
in coming force dynamicly, moving is striking. fulll body
skill. be able to flow with it. no brakes.. no retreat...
stick and dominate.


level 3: awareness, alertness, intutive... Now, stillness-silence...
SLT ... sets, woodern dummy, chi sau....
now ,one is there, now, one is not. similar to what the
Osense said:
the moon is in the water, but cant be found in the water.
and the moon is everywhere.
Snap short and read others power based energy flow
even if it is just a photograph. Attemp for one short take
out. no tan sau, no any kiu. just do it. and take it out.
a full confident without relying on logical thinking. confident
one can deal with all situation.



SLT ... sets, woodern dummy, chi sau....sparing... those are just tools.....

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Edmund


asking how are they going to deal with us- our quick zig zagging footwork



Those are called the seven stars or big dipper steps.
A top secret in WCK.
A method while "I can hit you and you cant get me."
A method of breaking the cat stance........ect
The seven stars steps are recorded in Emei 12 Zhuang's application--- for 'taking the place"....ect
It differentiate WingChunKun to other shao lin style or sister art.

It works. and it is more advance and simple then the x phase of fighting......

the beauty is that zig zag step doesnt have to be quick.

[PaulH]

It can't be a WC top secret, Hendrik, since Chin Yung wrote about it in several of his popular KF romance novels. =) Anyway, my guess is this elusive footwork is a set up game where you move and move again knowing full well where he will chase you. I would love to see how it is done against a lion. Ha! Ha!

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
It can't be a WC top secret, Hendrik, since Chin Yung wrote about it in several of his popular KF romance novels. =) Anyway, my guess is this elusive footwork is a set up game where you move and move again knowing full well where he will chase you. I would love to see how it is done against a lion. Ha! Ha!

Nope. if miss wing chun or Gandma Ng Mui shows it to you, you will say OH! That's IT. and forever you will use it. and the beauty is other will not know you are using it.

So, hahahahaha, that is about the Level 2.... hahahaha
You dont let him chase you. you dominate him.
How many time have you see Guy chasing Girl and the Girl just use that and dominate him? hahahaha
Those shao lin monk dont know the Girl's tacting. :D
IT is very fatal and sticky... hahahaha
How many steps when your first Girl friend told you she love you to take your place and dominate you? dont need the x steps or y phase of fighting. ... serious. in Xing Ying, it is said, half step of Peng Kuen beat the whole hero under the heaven.

But then one can't get there is one doesnt have the attainment of the cross bow or bow, "zero" delay jing issuing capability. :D
Thus, it is a level 2.

As soon as the lion think you are a good Kenturky Fried Chiken, everything is the same. it works well. hahahhah

[PaulH]

You know me. I'm more curious than the cat. So, is the road to San Jose still there? Ha! Ha!

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
You know me. I'm more curious than the cat. So, is the road to San Jose still there? Ha! Ha!

highway 1 and you can reach the north pole. :D

[Phenix]

hahahaha, PuL,

It is great. Now we talk about Why Wing Chun is superior.

Hey, atleast we have a better self-image, win or lost that is ying and yang nature. so? who cares? but a good self-image count all.

so, dont be a rebel ok. get a great self-image and world is wonderfull place to live in. No Woundology or Victim-logy of Qing did this and this to me and I have to revenge. ... Those keep one in victim state and close one in negative self image or always has to do something because somebody treat one wrong. so stuffy helpless.

That is not Zen. Zen is about open space, lively alert, Stillness silence, NOW.


See, Nguyen Mai's teaching of Wind Chun is
1, get a positive self-image then the rest comes!
Spring right? you know the Spring and feel the Spring's Wind then you know everything is going to grow and summer is going to come and NOW is great, Stillness is even great. :D

Oh buy this book. if you dont understand me english since last year.:D


http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/157731400X/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-6865297-7620859#reader-page

how can one get Zen when it is always stuck in past identity and future projection of fulfilment? Those cant even get one to live in NOW properly, not to mention ZEN.


Pual,

Wing is spring. Wind is wind of Spring.
Spring is about nature. Wind is about feeling....

Feeeling, OOOOooo Feeling.... Feeling in love.... hahahahaha
Love Thyself, Love thy WCK! without self love and always blaming on Qing means Qing win. Qing control's one's reaction after the whole Qing vanished in the thin air for 100years.


WCK is not inferior or superior but LOVE-RIOR. That is the message of MADAME NGUYEN MAI. --- Level 3! :D

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Edmund
For instance, Knifefighter is not going to buy Alan Orr's DVDs. You are quite right about that... but not for the reason you think.

I will pick up anything I think will help me and has value for the money. I have bought several instructional tapes from other systems and occasionally attend seminars. However, based on checking out his site and my posts back and forth with him, I don't believe his instructionals are value for the money- at least for me. If his "structural" striking is somehow different from what most MMA guys are doing, is different than what I have already figured out for striking on the ground on my own, and manages to do well in MMA/NHB arenas, I'll change my opinion and would be happy to give him some hard earned money for a DVD.

[PaulH]

Ah, yes! I feel a little springy in my steps just now. Gary's Gym is calling me! See ya! =)

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
You are quite right about that... but not for the reason you think.

I will pick up anything I think will help me and has value for the money. I have bought several instructional tapes from other systems and occasionally attend seminars. However, based on checking out his site and my posts back and forth with him, I don't believe his instructionals are value for the money- at least for me. If his "structural" striking is somehow different from what most MMA guys are doing, is different than what I have already figured out for striking on the ground on my own, and manages to do well in MMA/NHB arenas, I'll change my opinion and would be happy to give him some hard earned money for a DVD.

So those DVDs would not be cost effective to you. Cost-effectiveness can be compared to effeciency or economics. Seems to me like a wing chun principle has definately stayed with you. WC is not the only martial art that stresses effeciency, but its a major part of wing chun.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
WC is not the only martial art that stresses effeciency, but its a major part of wing chun. That's actually one of my criticisms about it... to much theoretical efficiency at the cost of performance effectiveness. Something my detractors would understand if they had ever taken a biomechanics/human performance class.

[Gangsterfist]

KF-

You and I are in agreeance about that. I started a thread a few weeks ago expressing my thoughts about kung fu and wing chun and its progression. I agree that many wing chun people think unilaterally about their art.

Wing Chun has many good things behind such as: structure, science, efficiency, and so forth. However, many do not realize its not the only one out there that has science and structure behind it. Here (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28524)is a link to the thread.

I don't want to make assumptions or criticize your sifu (who I have never met or trained with), but it seems to me you were not taught by a good wing chun teacher. My sifu always lets us know that wing chun is not bound to the movements of the forms, it builds energies and ideas that can be applied thousands of different ways and to use what works. Kung Fu is a conceptual art, but you cannot make fighting conceptual. You must be able to make that distinction. Fighting is not an exact science, but there is definately science involved.

I can see your view and agree with you on certain aspects, but to come out and call any system inferior is kind of being ignorant IMHO. I like to think of it as WC is more practical for me than karate is, but karate is still a great martial art.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
I can see your view and agree with you on certain aspects, but to come out and call any system inferior is kind of being ignorant IMHO. You are pretty much right about that... and that was pretty much my point in doing it- as a response to someone who made the ignorant claim about the superiority of his system.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And I'll say it again - Wing Chun Kung Fu offers more answers about the stand-up striking and kicking aspects of fighting than kick-boxing does...because when done properly WC covers not only the long and medium range aspects of fighting but goes WAY BEYOND kick boxing in terms of the short range close infight situation.

And as any BJJ enthusiast should know - the infight is the hardest part of the fight to avoid in a real streetfight. It's VERY difficult to stop someone from coming in and fighting you close when they're determined to "get you"...so your infight, whether standing or grappling on the ground, - better be good.

As Muhammad Ali once said about Chuck Webner - a nobody that Ali beat to a pulp and was the inspiration for the movie "Rocky"....
"If I had to fight him in an alley I'd bring my blade."

So if I could only bring one of those two arts to the desert island it would be Wing Chun.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
And I'll say it again - Wing Chun Kung Fu offers more answers about the stand-up striking and kicking aspects of fighting than kick-boxing does...because when done properly WC covers not only the long and medium range aspects of fighting but goes WAY BEYOND kick boxing in terms of the short range close infight situation. WC may have more theoretical "answers". But are they practical? I would say no because, if they were, the majority of kickboxing matches would be dominated by WC practitioners.

[Gangsterfist]

Just because wing chun is not battle tested in the sense of a sporting event does not make it inferior to muay thai, kick boxing, boxing, mma per se. You are again comparing an art that is designed to kill (just like all martial arts) to a fixed position fight with rules and regulations.

How about how wing chun got so popular several hundred years ago in southern chinese fighting circles? Back then there were no refs and no rules, and you may not walk away from the fight if you lose. Wing Chun practitioners cleaned up some of those fighting circles. So, therefore by transitive theory of your logic wing chun is a deeply practical art with tons of combat testing. Not to mention it was being combat tested in life or death situations against other martial artists that trained to kill.

Also take the human nature in as a factor. Each human is different. The untrained fighter and the trained fighter fight different. If you switch the different fighters into different elements they sometimes cannot adapt right away. Especially if you put rules and regulations on it. That is where cross training comes in. The best way to beat a system is to become part of that system. So all the purist that think wign chun is the only martial art you ever need to know and has answers to every possible situation and fighting scenerio are also being ignorant IMO.

Wing Chun is not for every martial artist. If another system suits you better than train in it. I have trained in several martial arts including: Ryukyu Kempo Okinawan Karate, TKD, Taiji quan yang family, wing chun yip man system, a bit of judo and jujitsu, along with chin na and some other MMA type stuff. I have been exposed to many many other styles and know some basic mechanics of them, but those previous ones I listed I have years of experience in. Now, IMHO comparing all the martial arts and training I have gone through Wing Chun is one of the most practical martial arts out there. Now, its is also IMHO that WC does not have answers for everything, but if it fails to give you an immediate answer it should at the very least give you an idea of an answer.

Just some thoughts....

[Gangsterfist]

Oh BTW also boxing and kick boxing make money. Therefore its televised and sponsored, because it makes money. Wing chun is not that flashy of a martial art so astetically speaking it may be boring to watch, where compared to boxing/kickboxing there is tons of bobbing and weaving and pretty looking stuff that people like to watch.

If wing chun were to become popular (and with all this secret society stuff), and I think its gonna blow up in the next couple of years; you just may start seeing it become more like a sporting event.

I mean hell dude they have chi sao competitions at MA tournaments now....LOL

[Ultimatewingchun]

Knifefighter:

The answers they provide are practical if you undersatnd how to use them and train accordingly.

[yuanfen]

If wing chun were to become popular (and with all this secret society stuff), and I think its gonna blow up in the next couple of years; you just may start seeing it become more like a sporting event.((Gangsterfist))
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good lord- I hope not. If it does I hope that they give it some other name.

[redtornado]

This is a good one!! This has been a great read!!
And really great ?? And answer...'s


:D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
If wing chun were to become popular (and with all this secret society stuff), and I think its gonna blow up in the next couple of years; you just may start seeing it become more like a sporting event.((Gangsterfist))
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good lord- I hope not. If it does I hope that they give it some other name.


WCK is an art. Same as Chan is a practiced to go beyond mind conciousness.

Secret Society is a group.

How the world this link together? Doesnt make sense at all.


Sure one can claim such and such secret society in the Qing Dynasty MIGHT practice WCK but then that is individual issue.
NOthing to do with the art of WCK. It is similar to if a movie star practice WCK. that movie star doesnt by default become the Grandmaster of WCK.

Samething with Chan, how the heck when people achive beyond mind conciousness still involving in revenging thoughts?
Dont believe me? get to "now" where the past identity was let go and future self-fufillment was also let go. Now, with this "open" up or "brightness" goes beyond mind, where is those revenge stuffs or emotional....?


Ask Krisnamurti or Eckhart Tolle who has some experience with that silence and beyond mind .... forget about those monks who stuck with riture and tradition or new age hollow wisdom saying but know nothing about beyond mind and denying Buddha's sutras for instruction. They often create thier own Zen with thier mind when others such as Eckhart is talking about beyond that narrow mind.

Read Eckhart or Krisnamurti, atleast that is closer to Chan.


just somethought

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Oh BTW also boxing and kick boxing make money. Therefore its televised and sponsored, because it makes money. Wing chun is not that flashy of a martial art so astetically speaking it may be boring to watch, where compared to boxing/kickboxing there is tons of bobbing and weaving and pretty looking stuff that people like to watch. While the fans may like the flashier looking fighter, ultimately, the goal in boxing and kick boxing is to win. The guys who win are the ones who continue on to bigger and bigger paydays. Without exception,all the pro boxers/kickboxers and their coaches I have known over the years put practicality as a priority. They don't care how it looks, as long as it helps them to win.

Since so much money is at stake, don't you think these guys would be incorporating WC training into their training regimens if it was so great? And don't you think there would be some WC guys who want to get a slice of the pie by coming in and cleaning up on the boxers and kickboxers?

As far as comparing sport vs. killing art, there is a great article on the main forum that talks about "delivery systems" and its relevency to this type of comparison.

[Gangsterfist]

There are actually tons of boxer's and MMA'ers that cross train wing chun.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
There are actually tons of boxer's and MMA'ers that cross train wing chun. I guess I'll have to take your word on that one.

BTW, how long have you trained WC?

[Gangsterfist]

I sent you a PM about my training and lineage so check your mailbox.

[FSY]

Knifefighter, I see that you use the Dog Brothers' "higher consciousness through harder contact." That's cool.

I know that the Dog Brothers recognize master/guru Dan Inosanto as one of their primary instructors. If you look at Inosanto's website, you'll see that he employs different martial artists from various styles. One of the instructors at his world renown academy is Francis Fong, a respected Wing Chun master who is also part of the training program for the Army Rangers (Special Operations Forces). In this case, Wing Chun isn't being taught simply for the use in the controlled environment of a ring, but rather for real life and death close contact encounters.

Take care.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
WC may have more theoretical "answers". But are they practical? I would say no because, if they were, the majority of kickboxing matches would be dominated by WC practitioners.

Always the same old argument about "ring fighting"
Why should Wing Chun people participate in kickboxing matches?...It is a fact that the almost totality of Wing Chun practitioners are not attracted by the sport side of martial arts.It is not about being too snob,enlighted or something,it is only about personal choices.Wing Chun attracts people like that for the most and kickboxing attracts the more "sporting " kind.That's it!...
I think even BJJ has a strong pool of "recreative " practitioners,who spar from their knees and are only looking for some fun. Is it bad also?...

[Edmund]

Actually, I have a fellow student competing in amateur MT in about a week or 2 and a few others preparing for it.
He's had 1 fight last year which he won via TKO 3rd round.



Originally posted by old jong

Always the same old argument about "ring fighting"
Why should Wing Chun people participate in kickboxing matches?...It is a fact that the almost totality of Wing Chun practitioners are not attracted by the sport side of martial arts.It is not about being too snob,enlighted or something,it is only about personal choices.Wing Chun attracts people like that for the most and kickboxing attracts the more "sporting " kind.That's it!...
I think even BJJ has a strong pool of "recreative " practitioners,who spar from their knees and are only looking for some fun. Is it bad also?...

[old jong]

Originally posted by Edmund
Actually, I have a fellow student competing in amateur MT in about a week or 2 and a few others preparing for it.
He's had 1 fight last year which he won via TKO 3rd round.




There are always exeptions and any Wing Chun people can do what they want. Nothing wrong there.

[YongChun]

Before Wing Chun I trained in Karate and Hung style. I have seen very good people in both arts. Then in 1976 I met a Yip Man student by the name of Patrick Chow who defeated me easily by having superior tactics and not on speed or strength. Also coming from a mathematical background the Wing Chun theory just really appealed to me and the training was very interesting. After all these years I don't see any reason why Wing Chun cannot do well against any style. Usually the limiting factors are lack of experience, lack of conditioning, not learning about the other style you fight, etc.

To me Wing Chun is just the very good core actions and principles from Chinese fighting. It has some similarities to boxing and fencing. I think people shouldn't wonder if Wing Chun can beat this or that. I think the idea in one's mind should be to make it work. You make the art work by developing the skill not by relying on it to work without the hard work and may failures on the way. Each failure is a learning experience.

I think Wing Chun is just like a taste. Some people like apples and others like oranges. Some people like the soft flowing actions of Yang style Tai Chi. Others don't like that and like the variety that Chen style Tai Chi offers and feel it is better for fighting. But Yang style people will say they can match the fighting. So any martial artist tries to make their art work. Wing Chun to me is about economy. However all arts say they are about economy. But we do seem to move less in general. For any specific application every art can have a simultaneous strike and counter just like Wing Chun. So one idea can't define the art. The art is really the smooth operation of all of it's elements which work together like the parts in a well running engine. when a good guy fights, you can see the SLT, CK, BJ, Dummy all integrated together depending on the circumstance. Wing Chun people can also develop arms and shins of steel and in fact there are such hard core individuals around.

However for most people Wing Chun is just a hobby and so they have no need to fight the Thai boxers and condition in that way. Most people have to go to work the next day and can't afford to get hurt and take time off from work. Also many people later get married and have families and so can't afford to train 7 days a week 7 hours a day like some of Yip Man's students (today's masters) did.

I find for myself that all the Wing Chun actions are very natural. I enjoy looking at Hung style very much but I wouldn't be able to put in enough hours to make that art work for me. For myself I also have some torn knee ligaments and injuries of that sort would limit what types of arts one can do. So TaeKwonDo is out. Those with back injuries would likewise tend to keep away from grapling arts.

These days mixed martial arts is in vogue. This has a positive aspect to become a more well rounded fighter but has the negative aspect that good (once proven in real combat) traditional styles would slowly disappear. For me it is interesting to see Preying Mantis against wing Chun or Tai Chi against Karate. But now it's mixed martial artist against mixed martial artist.

It takes a long time to be able to apply one's art against skilled opponents. It is easy to apply one's art in movie style against inferior opponents. In Hung style you would train 10 years solid before you were ready to apply it to fighting. Then by constantly fighting, by trial and error, by getting beat, by getting tips from the teacher, you would slowly learn to become a Hung style fighter. These days realistic combat is someone shoots you or ten people attack you either empty hand or with machete's.

They say Hung style trains you to fight 10 people at once. Then when you fight one person he gets the intensity of you fighting ten people. However when I see the tactics used for multiple opponent fighting , I see parallels with the Wing Chun technique. This means I see an equivalent idea and application that we also have. So it's just a matter of how you train. I think the Wing Chun theory is pretty good.

Even arts that people consider garbage like Aikido are actually pretty good in the hands of a fighter. I know someone who has a background in TaeKwonDo, Iron Palm, Judo, Preying Mantis, White Crane, Arnis and Wing Chun and he is very effective in his art of Aikido. At the lower levels the art is practiced big so that many counters are possible. But at the higher levels in the real application, it is very short and applied such that no counters or nice rolling falls are possible.

They say there are no bad martial arts, just bad martial artists.

[old jong]

Thanks Ray! Great post.

[Phil Redmond]

I agree with Michel. YongChun's post covered the 'one martial art being superior to another' topic well.
This statement covers it all.
"They say there are no bad martial arts, just bad martial artists."

[Ultimatewingchun]

Let me chirp in here since the origin of this thread was my statement on another thread that I thought Wing Chun offers more than Kickboxing and Catch Wrestling more than BJJ...

It is really all about the INDIVIDUAL in the final analysis...while technically some arts may have more to offer than other arts in certain ranges and aspects of fighting...every art offers something valuable.

No one martial art has all the answers to striking, to kicking, to grappling, to weapons use, etc.

In the end it's what the individual doing whatever art (or arts - if he's crosstraining)...it's what he brings to the table in terms of skill level, training regimen, strengthening, conditioning, & cardio attributes, consistentcy of reality-based sparring/grappling, mental and emotional makeup, dedication, desire and Will power...etc...

This is what it's all about in the end. NOT WHAT ART(S) YOU DO...
but how YOU do it.

So a fighter from what some might consider a "lesser" art might easily kick the butt of someone from an alleged "better" art.

I want to be clear on that...because in the end...THIS IS WHAT I PERSONALLY GO BY...regardless of any remarks I've made in the past (or in the future) when comparing arts.

In the end - it's not the art...it's you.

[captain]

ignore my posts all you wish,however,the concrete fact remains.with out a convincing,public success,wck will be trolled
or sidelined [in the minds of some ma's] by most.
Russell.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun




This is what it's all about in the end. NOT WHAT ART(S) YOU DO...
but how YOU do it.



YUP

[Yung Apprentice]

While the fans may like the flashier looking fighter, ultimately, the goal in boxing and kick boxing is to win. The guys who win are the ones who continue on to bigger and bigger paydays

If that were true , Floyd Mayweather Jr. would be making more money then De La Hoya. Regardless of the quality of his wins, his defensive style of boxing isn't very popular.

[yuanfen]

Captain sez:with out a convincing,public success,wck will be trolled
or sidelined [in the minds of some ma's] by most.
Russell.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what's wrong with being sidelined by the ignorant
and internet folks?

"Public success" Do you mean PPV UFC types of events?
There has been public testing of wc in different venues...
other than PPV and televised commerical sporting events.

Televison programs do not show the details of street fights either.

[FSY]

Another thing I've been thinking, how many guys have lost their eyes during a UFC event? I'm talking permanent blindness. None that I can think of... That's probably because gouging some guys eyes out would be considered unsportsmanlike.

However, a bad guy attacking an experienced Wing Chun expert on the streets would probably be begging for Bil Gee's thrusting fingers.

Bottom line, I don't think that evaluating a martial art's or a particular martial artist's effectiveness is best done by looking at success in the ring.

[YongChun]

Over the years I have met different Wing Chun 'fighters'. One guy R. Wong was the number two body guard for a top mafia type in Hong Kong. He was from the Jiu Wan lineage. He apparently had many fights and some were against multiple opponents. Mostly he succeeded but one multiple opponent fight sent him to the hospital. So we all have our limits and then he met his match.

I met this guy just once but trained with his student for about 7 months. The teachers I remember was a small guy, very soft but hit like a truck. The hits felt about the same as those dished out by Kenneth Chung or Emin Boztepe or William C.C. Chen of Tai Chi. I haven't felt the hits from too many top people so that's all I have for a comparison. In town here Roland deftly handled all kinds of martial artists who came to check him out. After a few years he quit teaching because he said in Canada you don't need this stuff but in Hong Kong he needed it daily for survival. I remember a powerful Hung style teacher compared hands with Roland and was mad as hell because Roland hit him too hard.

Then I met a guy who did 5 years of full contact KyoKushin Karate, 9 years of Choy Lee Fut style, Some Hung Fut style, a few years of bouncing work and then became an enforcer for some Asian gang. Later he retired from this dangerous occupation. This guy was 6 foot something, maybe 200 pounds and in fighting shape. He said he met a Lok Yu student and was defeated consistently by this guy and so took private lessons from him. He said after that he dropped the other stuff because he found what he learned simpler and more effective to use in his 'work'.

Another guy was the head of the police here. He learned Police combat, army boxing, wrestling, Judo and general street fighting. Then he came across Wing Chun and had a lot of trouble dealing with it. So he studied this art for maybe three years. He reported later that he had used the art on maybe a dozen or so occasions and felt it was very practical for police work.

I once taught a student who was a Karate, Aikido and various other arts guy. He ended up teaching his art to a talented student and that guy went on to become a policeman in Europe. He wrote a letter to his teacher a year ago saying that he had to police in a pretty rough part of town and so had much occasion to use his Wing Chun. Before he went there he also worked as a bouncer for about a year and also had frequent occasion to use his Wing Chun. He said so far this art has never failed him. I can say his attributes were that he was very rooted, very relaxed, very precise/economical, very calm, very explosive hits. He was a genuinly nice person but was very good in his exution of whatever Wing Chun he learned. Before that he knew nothing.

So for these types of people, who are complete unknowns, Wing Chun has served them well to their satisfaction. None of them has competed in the UFC or gone on to wipe out all the Thai Boxing champions. They had no interest in those things and probably would not have done well because these events require specific training and lots of experience and the right kind of body and also mindset.

I think in every club you run across these kinds of characters who have used Wing Chun successful on more than one occasion. Perhaps they could have used any other art and also been successful. They just took the tool of Wing Chun and made it work for them. They never asked does it work? So this gives confidence to the next crop of students that maybe Wing Chun is OK.

These are just some very small examples of people I have come across who have used their Wing Chun successfully. Again these stories can never be a proof of anything because we don't know the quality of the defeated fighters and the exact circumstances. It's anecdotal evidence that for some people Wing Chun was good enough.

For me Wing Chun feels like a comfortable art that I could do until I am 108 years old. I have a background of wrestling, Karate, Hung style, Tai Chi and Escrima. I am sure I would lose to a Thai fighter or a UFC champion or to lots of other people yet I still think for me that Wing Chun is a good art only because I just happen to like it and not for any academic or real world proof that it must be the top art for this or that reason.

Against inferior opponents I can use wrestling, primitive boxing, Hung style, Karate and even Tai Chi to beat them or any kind of thing to beat them. Against better opponents I would trust my Wing Chun more. Success would depend on who I am fighting. If the guy is better I would be lying on the floor. If my skill is better or he makes a mistake, then he will be lying on the floor.

Stories of fighting success can never prove anything unless they are ranked fighters of some sort and there are multiples matches. But in this case it is also a sporting event which is a little different from a reality fight. The difference is that in reality fights you might get seriously enough injured that your martial arts career and maybe your life is soon put to and end.

After a certain age you just can't train like a young tough Thai boxer anymore. Furthermore that's only a certain type of fighting. The fighting world includes a lot of dirty tactics and deception as well thast can only be picked up from the streets in the part of the world you are in.

One Indonesian Silat master by the name of Herman Siwanda said his father put coconut oil on his palms and then acid on top so that his he touched his opponent, the opponent's skin would be gone. A Chinese street fighter from Malaysia said that some Malaysian's were very good at throwing two coke bottles at you in such a way that they would smash together 6 inches in front of your face to splatter glass into your eyes. An old Hung style guy I met always carried salt in his pocket to throw into his opponent's eyes. He used to walk up and down the streets of Toronto looking for this serial killer that killed some nurses. This is all part of real fighting let alone the bomb method in vogue today.

If we talk about real fighting then anything goes and for that it's difficult to train. I have heard that out of several hundred thousand people that learn Wing Chun, maybe just 2,000 at most would qualify as fighters. Whatever the ratio, I think all the arts are like that whether it is Gracie Jujitsu, Boxing or Thai boxing.

It's no use to talk to much unless you go into competition yourself, use your own theories and win and then you can talk. However sooner or later someone will come along to clean your clock.

I think boxing can beat wrestling and wrestling can beat boxing. It just depends on whose doing it and and also depends on the day. The same can be said of any art against any other art. We all have two arms and two legs. If we fought with blindfolds on we wouldn't be able to tell if we got hit by a Karate punch or a Hsing I punch or a Wing Chun punch or a Krav Magda punch. A punch is a punch. Whatever your art, if your timing is off, your position inaccurate, and your initial move choice wrong then you could get beat very quickly.

Wing Chun is not a God given system or one thought out by a room full of fighting Phd's. It's sort of an evolving grass roots art I think. To me Wing Chun just gives suggestions for one way to fight.

Wing Chun suggests that being rooted is better than not being rooted. Wing Chun also stresses mobility as being important depending on the circumstances. You can apply Wing Chun to fight the guy sitting beside you in a car too. In this case there is no stance or mobility but you may be rooted in your seat. Then Wing Chun suggests if you are economical then maybe that's better than being un-economical. THere are no rules cast in concrete. Maybe sometimes being uneconomical is good for deceptive reasons. Being relaxed is usually better than being tense. There are a lot of good guidelines to follow and to me that is what makes up Wing Chun. All the rest are the details of everyone's interpretation of the art. The details can be argued for a millenium and no firm conclusion will result. The details can turn one into a true fighter or just a Wing Chun academic.

I think fighting is such that A's method can beat B's method and B's method can beat C's method but C's method can beat A's method. So then which is better A, B, or C?

Ray

[kj]

The voice of reason. Thanks for another eloquent post, Ray.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Ultimatewingchun]

YongChun (Ray):

Great post. Wing Chun may not have much of a track record in organized fighting events where money, belts and fame are on the line, but in real life street situations it has proved itself time and time again - all over the world.

There's no need to prove that it is not inferior. It stands on its own two feet where it counts the most - real life confrontations.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by FSY
Another thing I've been thinking, how many guys have lost their eyes during a UFC event? I'm talking permanent blindness. None that I can think of... That's probably because gouging some guys eyes out would be considered unsportsmanlike.

However, a bad guy attacking an experienced Wing Chun expert on the streets would probably be begging for Bil Gee's thrusting fingers.

Bottom line, I don't think that evaluating a martial art's or a particular martial artist's effectiveness is best done by looking at success in the ring.

1. How many guys here have gouged someone's eyes out before?

2. Think about it - it's easier for me to eye gouge you when I have you pinned and under control than it is for you to eye gouge me while I have free motion

3. In the initial UFCs eye gouging wasn't illegal - you only got a penalty. So, if I eye gouged you, I'd get a penalty, but if you couldn't continue, then I still won. I asked Royce this, and he confirmed it.

the point isn't to measure succes in the ring - the point is to measure it. unless you are out having street fights everyday, you have no way to do so, other than the ring. If you aren't in the ring or the street on a regular basis, then you can't REALLY be sure that your training will serve you well...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
YongChun (Ray):

Great post. Wing Chun may not have much of a track record in organized fighting events where money, belts and fame are on the line, but in real life street situations it has proved itself time and time again - all over the world.

There's no need to prove that it is not inferior. It stands on its own two feet where it counts the most - real life confrontations.

WC may have proved itself in the hands of able practitioners, but have have the practitioners proved themselves? I don't care what you can do with your WC if I can't do it with mine...

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by FSY
Another thing I've been thinking, how many guys have lost their eyes during a UFC event? I'm talking permanent blindness. Fred Etish lost his sight in one eye from his fight in the UFC. Yuki Nakai is also blind in one eye from his fight (which he still won, despite the eye gouge) against Gerard Gordeau.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Yung Apprentice


If that were true , Floyd Mayweather Jr. would be making more money then De La Hoya. Regardless of the quality of his wins, his defensive style of boxing isn't very popular. You do have a bit of a point there. A good boxer who is also a fan favorite will usually have bigger paydays. However, if you can keep winning, you can still make a good chunk of change even if you are not a favorite of the fans.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sevenstar:

"If you aren't in the ring or the street on a regular basis, then you can't REALLY be sure that your training will serve you well."

So what you're saying is that unless you're a pro fighter or a street thug...you can't really be sure? SO WHAT ? This is the case for 99% of the martial arts population!

But what you can do is train realistic hard contact striking/
grappling, etc. very consistently with as many good fighters as you can find. That's all.


"Wing Chun may prove itself in the hands of able practitioners, but have the practitioners proved themselves ? I don't care what you can do with your Wing Chun if I can't do it with mine. "

What on earth are you saying here ? Is this a riddle ?

[Yung Apprentice]

Just out of curiousity, why are there a few on here attacking WC? I mean, what KF style has been tryed and tested in the ring? Everything said in contrast to WC could pretty much be said about other styles of KF.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Yung Apprentice
Just out of curiousity, why are there a few on here attacking WC? Because someone stated that is was superior to kickboxing.

[kj]

Originally posted by SevenStar
If you aren't in the ring or the street on a regular basis, then you can't REALLY be sure that your training will serve you well...

It is not inherently foolish to train hard or be realistic. It can be foolish to be out of balance about it though, or goad others to be. If personal well-being is a prime motivator, then it may also be foolish for a person to take on more injury more often through training than they'd likely incur without involvement in martial arts or other related activities.

If someone is in the ring or street on a daily basis, as you put it, there is still no way of being 100% totally sure that training will sufficiently serve their needs when something REALLY BAD happens for REAL. And having that kind of experience, or lack of it, doesn't preclude something outside the realm of that training to play to advantage. Too many kinds of bad things can happen, as Ray succinctly illustrated. No one can fully prepare for everything. Even for Superman there is kryptonite.

It boils down to a game of odds. Once in awhile even good odds lose, and long shots win. Life is a big series of gambles. Enjoy the game while you can. It'll be over in no time. This is the only "sure" thing.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[old jong]

Thanks again Ray!...
An other excellent post that shows that there is a lot more in martial arts than the "cage" .To everyone their own....Why not?

[Yung Apprentice]

Because someone stated that is was superior to kickboxing.

So because one person, stated THEIR opinion,(as biased as it is) you decide to attack WC, instead of confront that one person?:confused: