New Guy Needs Help

[HA-Y-N]

ALOHA EVERYONE
I NEED YOUR HELP. I'M IN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND I NEED TO START TRAINING IN SOME FORM OF MARTIAL ARTS. I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT WING CHUN BUT, I AM VERY INTRESTED JUST FROM WHAT I'VE READ ABOUT IT. THERE IS A FEW SCHOOLS HERE IN HONOLULU AND MOST OF THE INSTRUCTORS WERE TRAINED FROM SAME SIFU WHO HAS REITIRED. MY HEART ACHE IS THE ADVICE I GET FROM OTHER OFFICERS AND MARTIAL ARTISTS. I UNDERSTAND THERE WILL ALWAYS BE THE MY STYLE WILL BEAT YOUR STYLE ARGUMENT. BUT BECAUSE OF MY LACK OF KNOWLEDGE, I HAVE TO ASK ALL OF YOU FOR HELP. SOME OFFICERS SWEAR BY MUAY THAI, WHILE OTHERS SAY WING CHUN OR JEET KUNE DO. THE ACADEMY TEACHES A FORM OF BRAZILIAN JUJITSU, BUT THATS ONLY WHILE YOUR AT THE ACADEMY. AFTER GRADUATION YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. SO MY QUESTIONS ARE AS FOLLOWS:

1. DOES WING CHUN HAVE AN ANSWER FOR THE USUAL ATTACKS
THAT HAPPEN TO OFFICERS IN THE STREET? ie THE WILD HAY
MAKER PUNCH(S), THE OLD ONE TWO FLURRY, AND THE
TACKLE.

2. IF ONE WAS TO REALLY WORK HARD AT IT, ABOUT HOW
LONG WOULD IT TAKE FOR SOMEONE TO BE ABLE TO
DEFEND THEMSELVES?

3. WHAT QUESTIONS SHOULD I ASK THE SIFU BEFORE
CHOOSING A SCHOOL?

4. CAN WING CHUN STAND ON IT'S OWN, OR WILL I HAVE TO
SUPPLEMENT IT WITH SOME OTHER SYLE? ie like the JEET
KUNE DO CONCEPT.

5. HOW ABOUT MULTIPLE OPPONENTS?


6. IS THERE CONTROLING TECHNIQUES LIKE CHIN NA?


7. DO ANY OF YOU KNOW OR CAN RECOMEND ANY
INSTRUCTORS WHO LIVE IN HONOLULU?

I MAY SOUND ANXIOUS, BUT I DON'T HAVE THE TIME LIKE MOST CIVILIANS TO LEARN FOR EXAMPLE 24 ANIMAL FORMS BEFORE BEING SHOWN HOW TO DRAW PRACTICAL ATTRIBUTES FROM THEM. DON'T GET ME WRONG, I BELIEVE TRADITION IS IMPORTANT, BUT WHERE I AM IN MY LIFE AND CAREER, COMING HOME TO MY FAMILY EVERY NIGHT SUPERCEDES TRADITION. I WOULD APPRECIATE ANY ADVICE YOU GUYS CAN GIVE ME.


MAHALO(THANK YOU)

[CHEUNG-WINGCHUN]

im not going to sprawl out into a discussion, i'll just try and answer your questions quickly, to the best of my knowledge:

1) yes, wingchun is perfect for simple attacks, its fast, direct, and allows you to control your oponent very well. Most of its simple and beginner techniques are aimed at stopping simple attacks such as a haymaker or a left right etc... Although as seen in the UFC, there isn't much you can do against a good tackle, expecially if the person doing it is a decent streetfighter, which is where at least some BASIC groundfighting techniques can help you...

2) you should become proficient enough with a couple of lessons a week 2 - 3 at winchun in about 3 - 6 months, but most of your confidence will probably kick in about 1 or 2 years later (similar to other martial arts, including thai kickboxing)

3) you should ask the sifu what style of wingchun they teach, what the lineage of the style is (who passed it down to him and so on) and also the costs of the school. If possible always request a demonstration, trial lesson, or try and have a look at some of the experienced students (as this will help you gauge what you will be like later on) Try and look for things such as the quality of the instruction, and whether or not they do much realistic training - intensity, and maturity of the training

4) wingchun can usually stand on its own, but in this day and age, with more experienced fighters and so many martial arts schools, i would recommend a ground fighting style, mabye just the occasional lesson of your brazilian jujitsu, to help you out if things head to the ground (the last place you want to be in real life)

5) wingchun is brilliant for multiple oponents, although its also important to think about positioning and tactics (not taught at all wingchun schools) try and position yourself so that you can observe all of your attackers at once, so that they cant get the jump on you - multiple oponent fighting should NEVER be encouraged, anyone who has been there will know why, its a very hairy experience in 99% of cases. Wingchun however will allow you to control and attack your oponents, and depending on your skill, dispatch of them effectively (although in real life people tend to take MUCH MORE punishment than you are led to believe in training - expecially by most sifu's who dont fight outside the place they teach)

6) there are controlling techniques, mainly based around the trapping of your oponents elbow, and attacking his balance. You will find these controlling techniques are much more effective and aggressive than any others out there for standup fighting (in my opinion)

7) HONOLULU? can't help you there

(All of the above is my own personal opinion comming from my martial arts knowledge and first hand experience on the streets)
:)

[KingMonkey]

Wing chun is primarily a striking art.
I would imagine that as a LE officer you will have to moderate your response and tactics much more than a private citizen or have a pretty short career.

With that in mind I'd find a good grappling school BJJ would be fine.

[reneritchie]

I don't think its a matter of one art or another, but in finding a teacher who can teach you specifically for law-enforcement needs (and not just a 'famous' teacher with adds in magazines who says he does).

There might well be fire-arm retention, arrest and detain, armed response, etc. programs, etc. in your area or with skilled instructors who travel through your area.

You could ask around your fellow law enforcement officers, or even military people.

[Gangsterfist]

One thing I can say about wing chun is if you pick up any book about hong kong police training, a lot of it looks like a combo of wing chun + chin na (chin na means to trap and seize, like grappling). Lots of centerline theory along with more heavy chin na (which would be more ideal in law enforcement anyways). The most modern books look like this that is.

Just another piece of wing chun history...

Back in the early 1900s when chinese gangsters were trying to rise to power (just as the western ones, al capone and such) they had to learn how to fight. Wing chun has been outlawed during this time period because the gangsters were using it. So the gangsters trained wing chun mainly because of the immoveable elbow techniques which made it a lot harder for the police officers of that time to do any standing chin na. This is how for a period of time wing chun was also known as gangsterfist kung fu.

[Phil Redmond]

I trained with lots of LE guy in NYC. I even ran a school with one.
I found that most LE guys don't really care about learning a whole martial art. What they want is something with simple principles that won't get them a case ;). I'm primarily a WC guy but look into what is simple and effective and doesn't require hours of training to be effective. Also if grappling with a perp, my "gun" can become "our" gun. Anti grappling can be useful but the LE trainers I know teach to avoid grappling with a suspect.

[Gangsterfist]

I agree Phil, but being a police officer requires you to follow procedures and regulations. Restraining someone to cuff them or arrest them seems like the most practical thing that an officer will have to do. The only person I know who kills for a living is an aquaintance's brother who happens to be a recon marine. Police officers are trying to keep and maintain peace so something simple like wing chun, with more emphasis on chin na (grappling) would be more ideal I would think. Perhaps I am wrong I am not in law enforcement, and I am going off what I have seen in law enforcement training books. I can't remember the Hong Kong police book I saw, but if you go the book store look through them. Its interesting stuff and looks a lot similar to wing chun techniques with a heavier emphasis on grappling.

Bottom line though, I totally agree with phil in that you should train something simple and very street practical.

[Tom Kagan]

"Most perpetrators are right-handed and not skilled in the use a firearm. When they fire, their shots will miss their target to the lower left or upper right. Therefore, if an officer is confronted with an armed perpetrator, the officer should immediately step to the left and duck before returning fire so as to minimize the officer's chances of being hit by the perpetrator's shots. If, however, an officer encounters a left-handed perpetrator and/or one who is skilled in the use of firearms, you will receive a hero's funeral." -- From NYPD cadet training, circa 1970s


If you are indeed a law enforcement officer that "does not have the time" because "coming home to [your] family every night supercedes tradition," I suggest to forego extensive martial arts training entirely. Beyond an officer's need to be able to avoid/take the first strike and weapon retention, you just don't need that much martial art training. The likelyhood of you being required to subdue someone like Ken Shamrock is next to zero. And even if you had to, doing so is quite simple if you stick to the "tools of your trade."

You never want to be in a situation where you are in a "fair fight." Fortunately, as a law enforcement officer, you never have to be. Of course, if an officer's ego becomes larger than his/her viglance (or fate decides it's your time), only luck will decide whether they'll have a story to retell or someone else has a eulogy to write.

A law enforcement officer's best tools for imninent threat protection (in no particular order):
Your partner
Two-way radio
A well fitting lightweight vest
The Taser (probably the best tool ever)
Pepper spray
Handcuffs
A Flashlight
A baton
A side-arm

To learn the extent of each one of the above tool's capability does not take much time. Maintaining proficiency might require an extra hour or two every few months. Used as a unit, you will be able to handle just about any potential encounter. Anything serious will require the potentially lethal force of a baton or sidearm. Anything very serious will require a strategic withdrawl and the use of your radio.

If you actually do "have the time" to train some martial arts, the style of martial art you study is probably not particularly inportant. You should probably go to whatever martial art school near you which will bring you in contact with the most diversity of people and/or fellow law enforcement officers. From there you will quickly learn what path on the martial arts road you wish to take.

[planetwc]

Burton Richardson who writes in Inside Kung Fu is I think based in Hawaii these days.

I think Egon and Enson Inoyue (sp?) are in Hawaii as well.

And I think one of the Gracie family members has an academy out there.

[JAFO]

You gotta use the right tool for the job. If I'm defending my family, my first priority is to win at all costs NO MATTER WHAT. That's why I'm very partial to Wing Chun - above all other styles I know of - at this stage of my life. However, priorities change. The ends do not always justify the means.

I used to be a cop a long time ago. At the time I was actively studying Kenpo, which is primarily a striking style. Vaguely like Wing Chun only a lot more cludgy (IMO). The problem a LE officer faces is that their job is to use only that amount of force necessary to take their adversary into custody, starting with verbal commands and moving all the way up to the use of deadly force.

Even with unarmed arrest control techniques there are authorized and unauthorized techniques. Depending on where you're working and what the official policies are, certain types of contact (like the LAPDs arm bar choke) and restraints are not legal for a LE officer to use. Same thing with batons, it's illegal to use a baton on someone's head (in California, anyway), which is one of the main violations charged against the LAPD cops who arrested Rodney King. The conventional wisdom being that if you're justified in using deadly force you're supposed to be using your firearm.

In my experience, about 90% of all physical scuffles and fights a cop is going to get into will involve a suspect who is trying to get away or avoid being placed into restraints rather than trying to actually fight with the cops. The most common struggles involve trying to get a combative subject into restraints. You'd be amazed how hard it is to get a drunk to bring their hands from the fetal position to behind their back without some serious leverage and pain. As a result, using a striking art to punch out or actually injure a suspect is usually going to exceed what the officer can demonstrate as reasonable force. And if punching a suspect is bad, really hurting them the way we learn in Wing Chun is going to generally be a non-starter for all but the most desperate of situations. As in, the suspect's all over you and is grabbing for your weapon. You know that once he gets it everyone in sight is going to be at serious risk - that's when it's going to be more permissible to go for a technique that upon completion will likely result in serious injury or worse to your adversary.

As a cop, I think you'll have a lot more use for a grappling style like BJJ or even judo than you will for cutting into some guys center and trapping him to deliver a strategic offense, or breaking his pelvis with a kick or whatever else we would normally go for by default. Sure, Wing Chun's center line theories, if properly applied, are far more direct and efficient than the 'equivalent' techniques as taught by most of the other styles. Ironically, it works even better when your adversary can cover their own center in the first place. But it does take a while for a lot of these applications to become instinctual. In the meantime, you need to come up to speed in the shortest time possible. If it were me, I'd start with BJJ or maybe judo and get comfortable with controlling a person who's trying to get away. Once you have that as a foundation, then add the Wing Chun back in to cover the standing fight - of which you'll seldom have use for if you handle your verbal command presence well enough.

I say all this in the context of my (dated) experience as a street cop. My understanding is that prison guards operate under different rules of engagement because of their environment. A couple of my Sifu's students are correctional officers and supposedly any physical confrontation is at the inmate's own risk, or so these guys say. According to them, being able to walk shoulder to shoulder with a convict and know that if he makes the wrong motion that they can not only 'feel' the direction of the movement but also take it away from them is, as the computer geeks say, the "killer application". I don't know if it's true or not, I'm just passing it along for you to consider.

I'm sure a couple guys on this board will come back and tell you that Wing Chun or Shaolin Gungfu is the only thing you need, and maybe for their situation it is. We even have some Wing Chun guys here who think WC is about punching their opponent rather than hurting them or worse, so I guess you could say WC means different things to different WC students. Only you can decide what you really need right now. I'd check them all out and see which one fits your needs the best. I wish you good fortune.

[Gangsterfist]

Man I wish I had that hong kong police training book handy I saw a while ago. Its all Chin Na that looks to be heavily wing chun influenced. I was impressed. It dealt with all kinds of things from hand cuffing techniques to unarmed Vs. firearm techniques. I forget the author's name but I believe he trains all the elite HK police officers.

Almost all the techniques ended up in a really bad submission. I mean bad for the guy you are applying it to, because they all looked really painful and mean; and a lot of them put you in a very advantageous situation.

I think it may have had a pink or green cover......

I will have to search and search for it, and if I find it I will post a link on here.

[reneritchie]

Gangsterfist - It was not 'gangs'. When my sigung, the late Sum Nung arrived in Guangzhou in the 1940s he began teaching some of the local worker unions like Metal Workers, 5 Metals, Restaurant, etc. Now, other unions (and some owners) learned other systems under some very famous sifu and these sifu weren't happy a young upstart like Sum was becoming increasingly popular. So, tensions broke out and fights started between the unions. These increased until dozens if not hundreds of people ended up fighting outside of town with improvised weapons. This 'civil unrest' is what led to the ban on teaching WCK for a time in the Guangzhou area.

And it was not 'immoveable elbow' that prevented the police from using their skills (not 'Chin Na', which is not an independant style but a part of every major system), but it was WCK 'fan kum na' (Fan Qin Na), or 'counter seizing-and-controlling' methods, of which the elbow, moving and unmoving plays but one part.

FWIW, WCK has very good Kum Na Sao all its own, however its purpose was not to catch and detain, but break and clear, so along with WCK mechanics, the end product is different in kind from other methods.

For BJJ- Relson Gracie teaches in Hawaii (Helio's son, second oldest after Rorion). He has a scary reputation. The Enoue's (Enson & Egan) run Grappling Unlimited (I think under the Nova Uniao banner). Baret Yoshida and other famous fighters come from there. Also in Nova Uniao, and famous fighters in their own rights, over in Hilo are B.J. Penn and his teacher Verissimo 'Churuto' (sp?), among others.

[Gangsterfist]

I heard different stories from different sifus from china. From what I heard the time period this was going on before wing chun was even publically taught. The gangster type people were taught it in secret. The immoveable elbow technique did not stop chin na 100% from being applied, it just made it a lot harder. That is one of the reasons wing chun was outlawed, or so I am told.

Then again chinese history seems to be revised a lot and said in a lot of different perspectives, so its really pointless to argue about it.