How do you train your WC for real fighting?

[Phil Redmond]

Some martial artists have doubts about WC as a viable fighting art. Without going into grappling or cross training, etc., how can/should we train for real fighting using WC alone or do we need augmenataion from outside of WC?
Of course we all know that real fighting has "X" factors but I'd like to know what some of us are doing to prepare for the hard knocks of a real fight when you have no choice but to fight.

[Ernie]

first and foremost

conditioning ,
in the street , sometimes you need to run jump ,slam people in the grill with objects

unless of course you really are willing to bet your life that every situation you could possibly run into will be a 3 second street fight :D

or you really going to drop a 300 pound fresh out of jail p.issed at the world ruff neck with a chain punch

got to be able to weather the storm


also awareness got to be street savy , if you don't see it coming who cares how devestating your skill is

darn i didn't recall reading about those in the ancient wing chun scroll of wisdom

:D

[PaulH]

Ernie,

How many times I told you to read Sun Tzu's The Art of War? All you need to know are hidden in those sacred bamboo's scrolls! Ha! Ha!

Regards,
PH

P.S Sun Tzu summarized it by saying being able to make an accurate assessment of "Heaven, Man, and Earth" .
For heaven: weather, night or day, or elemental forces
For man: everything about you and your opponents - strength and weakness.
For earth: The special features of the terrain of the fight.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I like your idea for this thread, Phil...but why exclude grappling or crosstraining ? While I agree that wing chun is good enough to win many real fight situations all by itself - nonetheless, you and I both agree, I'm sure, that wing chun (whether it be TWC or any other lineage)...does not cover all the possible bases that a fight might entail.

So my suggestion is to cover how to train wing chun for real fighting INCLUDING the use of non-wing chun moves...making the final product into a "Wing Chun based" mixed martial art.

How to train it...What to exclude (hours and hours of nonstop chi sao - as just one example - forms are another example)...how NOT to fall into the trap of using TOO MUCH centerline facing - thereby sacrificing power, exposing targets needlessly and slowing oneself down; the importance of conditioning, cardio, and stretching - of long range footwork...

How not to fall into the trap of thinking that exact simultaneous block and strike must ALWAYS be the case...when/how to use broken rhythm and high/low transitions when attacking...and when/how to use a jab...when to retreat (dispelling the MYTH that you must always go forward)...the importance of MOBILITY and light-on-your-feet footwork - especially when closing or avoiding or sidestepping...Oh yes - did I mention SIDESTEPPING...

The importance of how/when to use punching mitts - and kicking shields/bags...how to train on the Wooden Dummy WITHOUT just making it into another "form" (taking the moves out and drilling them against a live partner who throws punches and moves around - and who responds to your attacks)...

How and when to throw realistic kicks that always work to your advantage (some wing chun "players" are basically clueless about kicking)...the importance of Differentiation drills - and how they help prepare for sparring...how to spar realistically...and how often (Answer: OFTEN) ...and last but not least - how and when to use and defend takedowns, clinching, throwing , sweeping and grappling...

That was my idea for a new thread based upon the potentially promising but OH SO MISGUIDED "Why Wing Chun Is Inferior" thread - but without the nonsense that Knifefighter was trying to bring to the table.

Shall I start such a thread? Or can we go partners on this one?

Whatever you decide is fine with me.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
That was my idea for a new thread based upon the potentially promising but OH SO MISGUIDED "Why Wing Chun Is Inferior" thread - but without the nonsense that Knifefighter was trying to bring to the table.
Since you were the one who made the original assertion about WC being superior to kickboxing, why don't you do a post supporting your position, rather than just mocking my post? Or would that take too much intelligence?

[Phil Redmond]

Victor you, me, Ernie and others, believe in cross training. I just wanted to see what the WC purists would do to prepare themselves for the rigors of all out full contact training using only WC. That's why I omitted grappling. You can jump in here I don't mind. Many fights end up with some sort of grappling anyway. Those that can make their WC training realistic with or without grappling can share here.

[Grendel]

I don't cross train in other martial arts to fill a perceived deficit in Wing Chun. I feel that Wing Chun has all the answers to every question I've ever been asked in a fight, and it's a long path to mastery, but my Wing Chun seems to be improving over the years. However, I do enjoy training with other MA styles.

I worked out with a kickboxer last week who also has studied Wing Chun and is good at both IMO. When combining Muay Thai style kicks in a Wing Chun fashion, I found it very entertaining. If I failed to press and take the superior position, his greater kicking experience brought me up short every time, forcing me to be more aggressive, taking more chances, and taking less time for judging the situation, leading to more exchanges that honestly, I wish I could be certain that I could deal with on the street.

From experiences like this one, I feel that Wing Chun needs to fight its own fight, in the closest possible distance, and stay tight on a kicker or "runner"' rather than letting him set his distance---lessons that my teachers have always stressed. If the Wing Chun man or woman gives the kicker room to kick, that is, at visual distance rather than tactile, then we're giving up our greatest advantage. If we're in our range, there shouldn't be anyone who can get a kick off before we detect the intent. Your mileage may vary.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Knifefighter:

The long answer to your question has already begun to be answered in detail by previous posts on this and other threads...

but the short answer to why wing chun offers more than kickboxing is because wing chun...WHEN DONE WELL...covers all the bases that kickboxing does (long range/medium range)...and then ADDS SO MUCH MORE ABOUT THE INFIGHT.

Much more than what is covered in kickboxing.

[yuanfen]

Philsez:
Some martial artists have doubts about WC as a viable fighting art.
----------------
((I have doubts about individuals doing the art but not the art itself- the art involves the most comprehensive use of bone. ligaments, joints and muscle and brain and spirit that I know of- and I have gone the comparative route over time))

Ernie sez:
conditioning ,
in the street , sometimes you need to run jump ,slam people in the grill with objects
((No one can argue against conditioning for sporting matches.
Conditioning wont hurt on the street- but the street is a different matter. Some forms of sports conditioning can break the body down-if it is done all the time. Even pro boxers have different levels of conditoning- maintenance versus getting ready for a fight. Sporting types often get more injured in their sport than on the street. I wouldnt care to have Butkus's knees and he was a terror in his time. Or the steroid filled well known grappler who was in Phoenix for a liver transplant. Or be Joe Frazier, Ali or Tyson-as much as I have admired their skills)

UF sez:
you and I both agree, I'm sure, that wing chun (whether it be TWC or any other lineage)...does not cover all the possible bases that a fight might entail.
((As far as I can tell no one posting reasonably often on this forum can speak for all of wing chun)))

((On knifefighter's posts...
they are combinations of sarcasm and lack of sufficient knowledge of wing chun IMO. As has been pointed out -he does not know really what a centerline is- but he is not alone on that.
And how to develop that understanding or use it. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Wing chun is a very skillful art but skill development in wing chun
takes longer than basic punching, kicking or wrestling- but adding
on so called missing elements- arrests the development of wing chun skills which addresses different self defense contexts by developing the alert individual and adptive wing chun warrior.

One can develop street awareness without learning any martial art. Some development of common sense helps- dont stare down a hell's angel warlord ina bikerbar- better still-dont go there . Learn some survivor protocol for parking garages and lots and isolated transportaion areas or late night pedestraun travel. Dont flash your money or gold adornments. Develop spatial sense and alertness. Dont spray yourself with pepper spray.WEigh the risks to your life if only a few dollars is involved. Let the macho fools strut and posture- if they are not about to hurt you. Extend your calm periods-minimize paranoia.Weigh the risks of going to an area where civil war or reigious strife is likely.And knifefu and gun fu in the US specially in urban areas and
some rural areas as well( Okie shotgun country for example) has changed the nature of self defense considerably---among many examples note the death of a California champion MT fighter not too long ago.
Off the soap box without checking typos.

[Ernie]

joy
((No one can argue against conditioning for sporting matches.
Conditioning wont hurt on the street- but the street is a different matter. Some forms of sports conditioning can break the body down-if it is done all the time. Even pro boxers have different levels of conditoning- maintenance versus getting ready for a fight. Sporting types often get more injured in their sport than on the street. I wouldnt care to have Butkus's knees and he was a terror in his time. Or the steroid filled well known grappler who was in Phoenix for a liver transplant. Or be Joe Frazier, Ali or Tyson-as much as I have admired their skills)


come on that is such a cop out

you might as well go the full distance and say better to never get up off the couch for fear of breaking a nail

what the heck does being in shape have to do with a liver transplant good lord man


take any of these out of shape masters and square them up with a athlete not even a fighter and they will probably get wrecked

stop going to such ridiculas extremes to create a false spin on things

just admit you don't think being in tip top shape is such a important issue in your perception of street survival

every one is allowed there view no big deal

[Knifefighter]

Ernie- watch it there, bud. I'm the curmudgeon around here.

[Ernie]

ha ha

i came off strong but there are some things that just trip me out

sorry just must be upset from roid rage :D

but really it's cool to have your own view but come on

[yuanfen]

Some responses to Ernie:

come on that is such a cop out
((not really- you missed my point))

you might as well go the full distance and say better to never get up off the couch for fear of breaking a nail

((Cmon- I said absolutely nothing of the kind))

what the heck does being in shape have to do with a liver transplant good lord man

((Cmon again-you missed my point . I didnt argue against being in shape. Nothing wrong with relevant conditioning. Do we need a catalog of training injuries? You listed yours in one or two of your posts. On a differnt point- The list of combative athtletes using chemical enhancement in order to have an edge in combat is getting larger-
Alzado(football), Graham(grappling?), Vargas(boxing) etc etc. The fearsome pro wrestler's case that I alluded to is real.Combative sports folks get more injured in sports than on the street. I have a judo champion friend who has broken practically every bone in his body and has partial paralysis on one side of his face and really had not been ina street fight. In contrast- Wong Shon Leung when I met him
did not have apparent and permanent debilitating injuries from his wing chun fights-
though he had other life challenges. BTW some athletes with anti social tendencies are using guns-if you keep up with the news,.
Some recent posts on the forum havetaken ona hysterical social darwinian macho flavor on fighting.
Again- I repeat- I do not argue against being in the best shape that one can be in. )


take any of these out of shape masters and square them up with a athlete not even a fighter and they will probably get wrecked

((Who are what are you talking about? Masters should go around looking for a fight these days? Strange values.There are masters who are in shape and those who arent.Again- I didnt write a brief against getting in shape ))

stop going to such ridiculas extremes to create a false spin on things

((???))

just admit you don't think being in tip top shape is such a important issue in your perception of street survival

((???!!! Read.Never argued against being in shape. Women and small folks can be in top shape but if they dont develop other attributes-they can be at unnecessary risk.))

every one is allowed there view no big deal

((Agreed- no big deal. I dont argue aginst your training regimen-
if it suits you-that is great. And if knifefighter thinks that wing chun is inferior.....I chuckle- but I aint a missionary- I let people be))

[Gangsterfist]

This is simple. No martial art is created equal, no fighter is created equal. The person who trains the hardest is more likely to succeed. Use what works, there are no superior systems. Wing Chun is not the absolute best martial art out there, its just a really good one.

What makes you win in a real fight - intention. Intent on your actions. If you strike someone, strike them, do not hold back; for all you know they could kill you with their next hit.

Hey, not to mention tons of systems out there have science and structure and are combat tested. Like Choy Lay Fut, Taiji, Wing chun, Western Boxing, Muay Thai, Krav Maga just to name a few are all good martial arts that are proven to win fights.

Too much politics in kung fu. This is traditional thats not. Your mythilogical lineage is a myth, my mythicological lineage is not a myth because I have this painting that can barely be read says so. Who cares? The truth is yes wing chun does have its flaws. For one is way too **** political and argued over its freaking roots when no one can prove or disprove any theory.

I guess my point is, that I cross train in 2 major martial arts now. Wing Chun (Yip Man system) and Taijiquan (Yang style). Then I also supplement a few ground fighting styles like wrestling, judo, and jujutsu. I have a few years of okinawan training as well. And I use it all. I still use some external karate techniques that I learned almost 10 years ago, because they work. Thats the bottom line, it works so I use it. All of my internal attacks are usually taiji based movements and some are wing chun. All my nuetral techniques are definately Heavily Wing Chun based. Another thing, is that I could break each movement down and clarify where I learned it from. For example break each block, counter, attack, defensive movement I do and say if its wing chun, taiji, karate, judo or whatever and you know what? It would be pretty much a waste of time, because all that matters is that it works and that I won the fight.

[Ernie]

joy
i got your point but you then add in extremes which lead the '' ponit into a way out direction .

being in good shape has nothing to do with training injuries if your staying in shape you minimize injuries ,
my in juries came from extreme sports like down hill mountain biking , snow boarding and such
if i wasn't in good shape i may never have been able to recover and actually improve as i age

skill is skill your right and i agree you don't need to be in tip top shape to advance your skill

but were talking about the street were often you get caught off gaurd and you need to be in good enough shape to recover and or maintain

you need to run , jump climb what ever to survive a bad situation

you need to be able handle a rain of punches and kicks and still get up swinging

that is more a reality then the stretch of saying being in shape will lead to injuries

i think worse case not hope for best case

as for wong well he would get wrecked in todays arena as well
but at least he ran and swam and stayed in shape when he was fighting

he never had to face the caliber of fighter that is out today , not to say he couldn't adapt he was a proven street fighter not like most others that just talk the talk

and for that i respect his acomplishments

but that was then and this is now

people are in better shape and fighting skill is out there

but like i said your view is your reality and mine is mine i don't want to ruin phils thread

[KenWingJitsu]

can/should we train for real fighting using WC alone

LIVE TRAINING...LIVE TRAINING....If you dont understand what that means (and no it isn't "just sparring" although sparring is definitely "live") then....well you dont know.


or do we need augmenataion from outside of WC?

The answer is already above. Those who train LIVE will know that whether youw ant to or not, a real LIVE opponent or training/sparring partner will take you "out of WC" WHETHER YOU WANT HIM TO OR NOT. The question is ...are you ready for that?

[kungfu cowboy]

I believe the answer should be: train wing chun.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dhira's remarks about possibly being taken out of the wing chun game whether you want it or not - have to be taken seriously.

Anything can happen in a fight.

[Phil Redmond]

KWJ

LIVE TRAINING...LIVE TRAINING....If you dont understand what that means (and no it isn't "just sparring" although sparring is definitely "live") then....well you dont know.
Hopefully you were refering to some one else if not I don't think you got the gist of that statement. I clearly understand. Like I said before WC is one of the tools in my tool box, not the only one. It would be a sad carpenter with only one tool.
The answer is already above. Those who train LIVE will know that whether you want to or not, a real LIVE opponent or training/sparring partner will take you "out of WC" WHETHER YOU WANT HIM TO OR NOT. . .
Noo . . . for real???? ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

From day one: SLT/footwork/punching/kicking/learn to defend
vs. the opponent from a non-contact distance (ie. he straight punches LIKE A BOXER-you defend)/start learning infight contact reflex range (dan chi sao, pak sao, lop sao drills - SOON to be followed by breaking these down to real applications with a partner throwing punches or whatever/

Learn some self defense moves: ie- he bear hugs or headlocks - you react with whatever/start learning longer range entry and attack footwork that leads to striking and/or contact with his arms/learn some basic counters to takedowns: ie.-sprawl/ start learning some unarmed defense moves vs. a knife attack/

More about chi sao: double arm luk sao (rolling, switching, coming back to the centerline when taken off)/more punching drills(including boxing hooks, jabs, uppercuts)/more about kicking-different types of front kicks/more about defending hook punches/defending rear front kicks/defending this, defending that/

More about chi sao (making openings and attacking - as well as defending those very kind of attacks ie.- tan vs. lop)/
learning some basic ground grappling positions and escapes/
some submissions (ie.-double wristlock, basic rear choke)...

Start using punching mitts/kicking shields and bags/doing plenty of stretching, pushups, situps, back bridges, aerobics...IN CLASS...RIGHT FROM DAY ONE/after about 3-4 different defenses have been learned from x position (stance)...ie.- he straight punches, he hook punches, he rear front kicks, he attacks with a double leg shoot...

AND you have to DIFFERENTIATE by not knowing which one of those four moves are coming in advance...you must react appropriately to each (you're learning how to SEE what's coming and deal with it)- to be followed by you learning how to attack even though he might throw one of those four or some other reaction to your attack (YOU'RE STARTING TO LEARN HOW TO SPAR) very lightly- to be followed with more and more contact and protective gear...and more and more moves being used/


Such as dealing with attempted bullrush grabs and takedowns/
haymakers/rear crosses - while you learn more about high/low attacking and defending/ on-the-toes explosive footwork/when to retreat/when and how to sidestep/how-when to throw roundhouse kicks, sidekicks/some sweeps and takedowns..

Just one man's opinion about one possible way to go about training wing chun for real fighting...

Not cast in stone, of course...just some ideas ABOUT MAKIN' IT REAL...right from day one.

The above could all be done inside of 1.5 years of first starting, IMO....To be followed more and more with in-the-clinch skills (elbows,knees,throws)...and more and more standing and groundgrappling moves, positions, escapes, reversals an submissions...along with more and more chi sao, wooden dummy moves and applications, etc.

[Ernie]

you know i've been reading all this [ best this best that junk ]
and reality kicked in

cut the b.s.

if you were given 3 months to prepare for a fight to the death , yes to the death , i said lets cut the b.s.

were you have no idea what your oppent looks like if it will be 1 guy or 5
might even involve weapons

might be in a phone booth might be on the street might be at the beach snow whatever

you have no idea

all you knoiw is some one is going to die you or him


how would you as an individiual train for that ?

really think about

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'd train the same way I'm training now - only I'd be doing it 8 hours a day - every day. I might also start packin' !!!

[Ernie]

victor
you get were i'm going with this

when your life is on the line , you will do anything and everything that might give you anykind of edge and not waste anytime on things do give obvious and quick results

[Ultimatewingchun]

As regards best this, best that :

Yes - some systems are better than others, NO DOUBT. If you could only take one system to the desert island...would you bring TKD ???!!! LOL.

BUT crosstraining HAS to be done to survive that fight-to-the-death deal...because no one system has all the answers to the questions that you might have to face - regardless of HOW GOOD that system is.

SO MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYTHING ELSE - is how YOU train and the intensity YOU bring to the process - not what system you train in.

It's the INDIVIDUAL that is the most important factor in the story.

[PaulH]

You don't. Learn to accept things and go from there. I still say 3 months is long enough to digest the BOOK in the Sunny Zoo. Ha! Ha!

[Ernie]

so the first thing you should do is look at your individual strengths and weakness

your conditioning /wind/strength/spirit /mind

then add in as much adaptable type situations as possible to prepare you to change and flow

i think the hardest part for is an honest assesment of themselves

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie that was beautiful...

If we don't know it's broke - we can't fix it.

[PaulH]

Ernie,

What you says is man vs. man. Let say you know me being a small guy can only pull you. If I try to pull you and hit, the result is quite unsatisfactory still. Now, let say I'm blinding you by throwing sand into your eyes (darkness - Heaven), and pull you into the tree (Earth), I think you got the picture. Ha! Ha!

[Ernie]

paul when your getting your head smashed through a car window , you can take the time to pause and think of heaven and earth :D

[PaulH]

It would be too late then. Ha! Ha! But the main idea is to win by superior powers against his lone force. In this case I borrow the terrain and combat conditions to work in my favor.

[Ernie]

a bug splattered on a windshield is still a bug splattered on a windshield

if it's up hill down hill snow or rain end result is the same

but you avoided the question

take a look at yourself and how would you change your training if at all

[PaulH]

The best fight is when you know how to use the enviroment against him! Why hurts your hands? But man against man, beside skills you can mostly count on having greater courage, greater power and endurance. One thing at the time, it's easier and more fun to concentrate on skills at the moment.

Regards,
PH

[Ernie]

sooooooo how would you train such things

[KingMonkey]

A useful question for focussing on the important stuff.......
When I thought about Ernie's question I came up with the following. The answers for me personally in the following order of importance were......

1) Train more against live force, resisting opponents.
2) Work on conditionning more.
3) Work on increasing striking power.

Number 1 I had to move outside WC to address. It shouldnt be that way and if you're lucky it wont be the case at your school but it was for me.

As for 2 and 3 well I never really bought into the 3 second WC, anti-strength training kabal.

Just recently I've been a bit demoralized and so I've been slacking off.
Got to get my arse in gear !

[PaulH]

I can't reveal it. I take the 5th amendment. Ha! Ha! Hey don't play dumb you see me all the time training.

[Ernie]

king monkey

nice response and honest which is what i wanted to see

myself
right off the bat drop 10 pounds , road work , when i'm running a few time a week everything just flows better

stick and kinfe sparring , it's been to long since i was really putting in time


mulitple opponent training


and some kind of ground game i suck on the ground :)

this is all in addition to what i am allready doing

and as victor said all day every day until the day

[PaulH]

Ernie,

Just curious how would you train people who can't do the things that you do like a woman? Not intended to be a sexist comment but woman is not exactly built like a man. They are different.

[Ernie]

jump in the ring with kathy long she is a pro boxer and kick boxer i know and i would beg to differ

as for the rest of normal ladies well size is size and most arn't built for head to head battle ,

if i had to train a girl it would be more in the filipino system , it's just a more ballistic dirty tactic approach


i doubt many 90 pound chicks are going to drop a p issed off 200 pound dude

just like if i square up to a 300 pound in shape athletic dude and i have . i will get my head handed to me and i did

not being sexist , i would train my mother or sister to fight dirty , be in shape enough to run , sceam draw attention
hell i might be right next to them running and screaming if the situation was that bad

i would teach them sensitivity drills , head butt knee ,elbow stuff biting and i would tell them to learn the ground game

weapons would be a must anything that can equalize the playing field

my own girl friend can box and kick box i have taught her the clinch , head butt knee and elbow flows as well as biting
i have her working some sticks [ just last night as a matter of fact ]
her boxing and thai skills are getting good , she hits the wieghts 3 times a week and runs twice a week
and i have seen here drop a guy with a right cross in a bar in mexico , she then tossed him over a rail while squeezing his throat . all this happened 5 feet away from me and was over before i got there
when a girl gets upset powerful things can happen .

lets just say i take out the trash when she ask:D

[PaulH]

Aha! there you have it! I train like a girl! Ha! Ha!

[Ernie]

but dude you allready do :)

ladies we are just playing around no disrespect intended

[PaulH]

Watch out, Ernie! It takes a woman to ruin a strong man. Ha! Ha!

[Gangsterfist]

i have seen here drop a guy with a right cross in a bar in mexico , she then tossed him over a rail while squeezing his throat . all this happened 5 feet away from me and was over before i got there
when a girl gets upset powerful things can happen .


Hmm, you or your girlfriend ever been to a mexican prison?

I think its not that wise to fight in mexico.

[Ernie]

almost
about ten years ago me and the boys got into it with some marines and we blew a bar apart , chairs ,tables windows it was nuts , everybody was slipping and falling from all the beer on the floor
the only way i got us out was a friend of mind got a bottle smashed over his head and was bleeding bad , when the cops lined us up out side i told them not to touch him cus he had aids [ of course i lied ] but they took all our money and told us to get out

speaking spanish was a plus then

but this last time it was so quick and i rushed us to a taco stand across the street were we just hung out till things calmed down

but your right i have no desire to sit in a mexican prison but my chick was standing up for here sister and when it comes to family people get crazy

[KenWingJitsu]

lol, Phil, I wasntt referring to you when i said "you".

By "you" I mean the many "you's" that read this forum wondering the answers to your question. ia lready know your thoughts on the matter, we are on the same page on many things. it's the others "you's" I was directing my comments at. General statement.

lol. Ernie, I like the way your questioning PH to 'think' for himself. Sounds like you have the right chick....lucky dawg.

[Ernie]

lol. Ernie, I like the way your questioning PH to 'think' for himself. Sounds like you have the right chick....lucky dawg.

i'm not complaining ha ha
now if i could figure out a way to not work stay home and have her pay the bills life would be lovely

dhira give me call man we got to hang out soon

[russellsherry]

hi guys earnie i think you are right, about being in shape , this helps in real fighting, but i think expereince the more you have , helps being sly and sneaky helps as well for myself i like it when people underestmate me or think i am a soft target thats when being sly helps. Also i like the fact you train in arnis, my guro is roland dantes remy peras close friend and student, guro is a movie star in manilla and is very famous have you heard of him, ? if not next time you speak to danny inosanto ask about him danny knows him well peace russellsherry oh earnie do a websearch type in roland dantes check the modern arnis sites

[Knifefighter]

Interesting story about the roll of conditioning:

One of my training partners is a bailiff in the local courts in the area around here. He has a co-worker is about 6’6’’ and 260 lbs. This other officer is big and strong, but doesn’t do anything in the way of conditioning. He is also a gazillionth degree "master" in a couple of martial arts who has taught restraint techniques to several of the other bailiffs in the court.

One day in court holding area, the other officer was supervising a group of defendants. One of the defendants, who was about 5’9" and maybe 170 lbs, attacked him. The officer hit the attacking guy quite a few times, even managing to knock him down a couple of times. The guy who was attacking jumped back each time he was knocked down and continued to come back at the officer.

This went on for about 30 seconds or so until my friend, who was in the courtroom area, realized what was happening. By the time he made it into the holding area to subdue the defendant, his co-worker was bent over, wheezing and trying to breath, while the attacker was pounding on his head.

This was a guy who was about 100 lbs heavier than his attacker and who had years of martial arts training, but no conditioning to back it up. Imagine what would have happened if he had been attacked by someone to whom he didn’t have a significant size advantage.

[KingMonkey]

Has nobody else noticed the obvious flaw in KF's story ?
The fight went on longer than 3 seconds, that cant be true.;)

Doesnt say much for the guys restraining techniques though...........

[jonp]

conditioning

possibly the least enjoyable aspect (for me) of my
training and therefore probably the most important.

im a lazy mo' fo' by nature so i do anything to avoid
breaking into a sweat. id much rather stand around
'feeling myself'

trouble is we did a bit of multiple assailant work
at training the other day and within seconds i
was wheezing like a 90yr old 40 a day smoker.

the whole trad. martial arts jazz of standing &
workin internally is vital imo to self awareness
which in turn leads to good health, posture,
power, relaxation & sensitivity but if you dont
have basic fitness it is effectively unapplicable.

then again i guess if you are doin your wck training
right you should develop a decent level of fitness
through that alone.

laterz

-jon

[Phil Redmond]

Well, one thing is that 'most,' (including myself) teach beginners to throw a punch and hold it out there for their partner to do techniques. I make sure that I tell my students that type of training helps to develop coordination together techniques if you happen to catch the arm at varying degrees of extension in committed punches. I soon get them out of that stage by having their partners retract the punch as fast as possible. This way the defender has to cover openings before countering. Then we progress to having the attacker throw double punches at one particular gate then another gate until they get good at interpreting movement. After that the punches become random, one or more punches to the same gate to different gates. I want them to develop one instinctive technique against a straight attack and one against circular attacks. We keep it simple. The idea is to have one effective block/cover/counter technique for the possible angles of attack that will come naturally under pressure. Once they have that then we can add variations. We do the same with kicks. The next thing is a realistic fighting distance. (remember is the beginners program), instead of stopping punches before the target they attempt to strike their partners with the padded part of the fingers. This way there are no injuries to beginners, but the distance is a lot more realistic. They know if the didn't parry or cover the strike right away when they get hit. They do these drills repeatedly. So during the class they've trained some attributes and got lots of cardio.
Now for the intermediate guys. . . . well that' a different story ;)

[Shadowboxer]

Sifu Redmond,

Please PM me when your mailbox is empty. Thanks.

[redtornado]

Hi I have full confidance in Wing chun system.
I have just started and I have to stay focused with each move and I enjoy seeing and learing new stuff about wing chun...Jeff williams:)

[mr. jai]

i must agree with king monkey.

[AztecaPreist]

I am one of the lucky ones you could say from one prespective. I work in the jail and almost on a daily basis there is some one who is not all there in the head wich is why he is coming to my house. I touch hands with many different people who come at me in different ways that it gives me the oppurtunity to have to react instead of rely on the kwoon atmosphere where you know you are going to be attacked. For the most part in there all my opponenets have been street fighters wich to this day have been the fastest to subdue due to their lack of any type of fight training in any system. I have come across a couple of inmates who have seen me fight and asked if i was jeet kun do or wing chun? :D

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by AztecaPreist
I am one of the lucky ones you could say from one prespective. I work in the jail and almost on a daily basis there is some one who is not all there in the head wich is why he is coming to my house. I touch hands with many different people who come at me in different ways that it gives me the oppurtunity to have to react instead of rely on the kwoon atmosphere where you know you are going to be attacked. For the most part in there all my opponenets have been street fighters wich to this day have been the fastest to subdue due to their lack of any type of fight training in any system. I have come across a couple of inmates who have seen me fight and asked if i was jeet kun do or wing chun? :D

Just don't drop the soap, I don't think gan saos will help you there. LOL

I have heard of MA that go to jail have to hide their skills. Otherwise every inmate will want to fight them. I have never been to jail myself and never plan to go, so I can't speak from personal experience.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Gangsterfist:

One of my best students - he studied with me for about 9 years before moving to Connecticut - still is a teacher on Rikers Island prison here in NYC...inmates who are still of a certain age are required by State law to be taught High School level curriculum if they are presently incarcerated.

They have constantly challenged him, attacked him, and made him hit/kick/elbow/knee/throw people around for years now. Almost always it was "street" tactics he's been up against - occasionally it's been against those with boxing or karate experience...And having it known that he's a Wing Chun guy has always been a double-edged sword - some are afraid to mess with him because he has a reputation - while others do the gunning for the "fastest gun in the west" routine.

[Phil Redmond]

You're right Victor. Our old WC brother Jesse was one of Rikers Island's elite EMS guys. He had to go up against many JHR/52 Blocks guys to get respect. Some inmates will challenge you in Rikers or any other jail.