Why Catch Wrestling Is Inferior for WC supplementation

[Knifefighter]

I had so much fun stirring things up with my Wing Chun analysis that I thought I would do another comparing and contrasting Catch wrestling with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as a supplement to Wing Chun training.

Background:
Fights are unpredictable and the Wing Chun fighter would be wise to supplement his stand up training with a comprehensive ground system.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is an art that specializes in groundfighting/groundgrappling. It was originally developed from Japanese judo/jujutsu. Catch wrestling also specializes in groundgrappling and has its roots in English/European catch-as-catch-can grappling traditions. Both systems have a variety of submissions (or hooks) designed to disable an opponent. The two disciplines have several theoretical and practical differences which are contrasted below:

Fighting from an Inferior Position:
No matter how good your takedowns are, if you meet a better takedown artist or someone who is significantly larger than you are, you will probably end up on the bottom if the fight goes to the ground. Being on the bottom is a very disadvantageous position in which to find oneself. A fighter who can fight effectively from the bottom position significantly increases his chances of surviving or winning if he ends up in this inferior position on the ground.

BJJ has taken the basic bottom ground defensive position of Judo (the guard) and refined it to the point that a good BJJ fighter has as good or better chance of winning the fight as the person who is in the top position. There are literally hundreds of joint breaks, chokes, and sweeps in a variety of variations that have been developed in BJJ for use when on the bottom. The guard has become such a strong offensive weapon that some BJJ fighters even prefer to be in this position.

Catch wrestling, on the other hand, has not developed much of a repertoire of bottom fighting (some Catch wrestlers even speak disdainfully of the guard by calling it the "*****" position) and most Catch wrestlers prefer to attempt to regain the top position. However, this is easier said than done when one comes across a ground grappler who is talented (and/or bigger) at maintaining the top controlling position. Unfortunately, for the Catch practitioner in this situation, he doesn’t have much of an offensive arsenal when on the bottom.

Mixing Strikes, Breaks, and Chokes:
Striking an opponent, breaking a joint, or choking him unconscious are the three main methods to incapacitate an opponent in an unarmed combative encounter. An art that successfully combines these three will have an advantage over an art that does not.

Most people understand that the BJJ system is made up of a large number of joint breaks and chokes. Many people are not as familiar with the ground striking in this art. BJJ is comprised of gi training and Vale Tudo (anything goes) training. The gi training is pure grappling and is made up of positioning, sweeps, chokes, and joint locks. BJJ Vale Tudo training is composed of striking, in addition to many of the submissions found in the gi training. Three of the four main positions that are given top priority in BJJ (the knee ride, the mount, and the back mount) are mainly striking positions.

By contrast, Catch wrestling is strictly a grappling art. Catch has many submissions, but does not include striking into the system. Without strikes and the understanding of the positions necessary to create powerful strikes, the Catch wrestler has a distinct disadvantage compared to the BJJ practitioner.


Position Before Submission, Submission From Any Position:
An accomplished grappler understands the positions that allow for both maximum control and maximum opportunity to inflict damage to an opponent. Although he strives for a superior position, a competent grappler will have the knowledge and ability to finish an opponent if a joint break or choke presents itself from a less than ideal position.

BJJ strives to find a position that will provide the greatest control and/or allow for maximum damage to the opponent. The four positions that allow for these criteria are known as the side control position, the mount, the knee ride (or knee on stomach/knee mount), and the back mount. At the same time, a competent BJJ practitioner will know when to go for finishes from less than ideal positions such as the 1/2 guard, the guard, when mounted, or even when transitioning from one position to the next if the opportunity presents itself. BJJ has submissions from every position on the ground.

Catch wrestling has a different philosophy and places very little emphasis on positioning. Because of this, Catch practitioners will often attempt submissions when they have opportunities to first establish a position that will make these submissions less risky to apply. Catch wrestlers are also unsophisticated about the bottom guard position and, because of this, have relatively few offensive weapons from the bottom position.

Use of Clothing:
Most real-life encounters involve both combatants fully clothed wearing shirts, sweatshirts, and or jackets. Being able to control an opponent and apply chokeholds using the opponent’s or one’s own clothing can add greatly to a person’s fighting proficiency on the street.

Due to its training with the gi, BJJ has a large range of techniques that can be used to control and disable an opponent using the opponent’s shirt, sweatshirt, or jacket. There are a wide variety of chokes available to the BJJ practitioner using not only the opponent’s clothing, but his own as well.

Catch wrestling, on the other hand, mostly ignores the importance of using clothing in fighting applications. Because of this Catch has no control or choke techniques using an opponent’s clothing.


Conclusion:
My conclusion is that Catch wrestling is an inferior choice for grappling supplementation to Wing Chun. Wing Chun practitioners who wish to supplement their training with groundfighting would be much better served by Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

[anerlich]

2.85

[Ultimatewingchun]

Knifefighter:

Your ideas about what Catch Wrestling's all about...are so clueless that I won't even respond to you. But I will say this much - Do that chip on your shoulder a big favor and walk into a Tony Cecchine Catch Wrestling seminar with it.

Because that chip is just begging to come flying off.

[Knifefighter]

UWC,
Instead of ragging on me personally, why don't you write a reply that supports your position?

Nevermine... that would require well-thought out reasoning.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Now I already know IN ADVANCE that you will attempt to make believe that I didn't support my position with the explanation I'm about to give...

Because I'm sure that you have read what I'm about to write BEFORE...ON OTHER THREADS that I participated on...and yet you still try to act like you don't get it...

But nonetheless I will take the bait and indulge you on just one point - since it is the most crucial point of all:

In Catch...It's about CONTROL....and submission....and control CAN BE HAD from so many different "positions"...that Catch doesn't emphasize the term position the way you do...

Of course Catch talks about and trains a number of "positions".
But since CONTROL is the KEY factor...

AND SINCE ANY NUMBER OF A MULTITUDE OF "POSITIONS" MIGHT ACTUALLY RENDER THE CONTROL NECESSARY FOR A SUBMISSION TO BE APPLIED...

Catch therefore talks about CONTROL AND SUBMISSION...rather than position and submission. Once you start to talk about having to gain a specific position(s) before going for a submission - you by definition LIMIT yourself to a relatively small amout of "positions" and "possibilities" of ending the fight as quickly as possible...

Not to mention the fact that iron-clad rules about certain positions might actually turn out to be FALSE...

ie. - Sakuraba submitted Renzo Gracie while being in what BJJ considers an "inferior" position. Go figure !

And with that...I say finito to my participation on this thread.

[Knifefighter]

See Victor... you did it! You rebutted one of my points with rational argument without telling me how clueless I am... and without even using too many personal put-downs. Nice job. See this debating stuff isn't so hard afterall.

Now try to do the rest with my other points. Maybe you can even come up with some additional ones of your own that could support your argument for the superiority of catch.

[KenWingJitsu]

Catch vs. BJJ on a Wing CHun forum? Oy Vey! WHat is this world coming to? lol.

Anyways, i am pretty aware of the differences between both...heh.

[CHEUNG-WINGCHUN]

i'm in the fortunate position of suplimenting my wingchun with freestyle wrestling, seeing as thats ALL i did in primary and highschool, not in a team, but all my friends were wrestling enthusiasts... ahh the joys of natural wrestling ability, you dont need to think about anything and things usually work your way very easily

[kungfu cowboy]

What is this "groundfighting"?:confused:

[captain]

i'm sensing "only child syndrome"!

[kungfu cowboy]

Yes. I defeated my siblings at standup! Seriously though, some arts just don't need a ground game. They are just that good. However, it might not be a bad idea to learn some of these moves until your skill improves and you may then discard the child-like training wheels.

Super serious though:
Why don't people insist on groundfighting arts working on their substandard standup? Seems like it should go both ways. Not unlike men in prison.

Actually, hows about you do what you like, get good, and quit worrying about real or imagined holes in your training?

Spread it too thin, and there ain't enough butter for the bisquit!

[captain]

no,no,cowboy,i meant the thread starter!

[kungfu cowboy]

Oh. I take it all back! Long live BJJ!

Actually I do think it is worth checking out
all ranges, but I don't think that any are intrinsically superior.
Of course, I am a twit though.:)

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by CHEUNG-WINGCHUN
i'm in the fortunate position of suplimenting my wingchun with freestyle wrestling, seeing as thats ALL i did in primary and highschool, not in a team, but all my friends were wrestling enthusiasts... ahh the joys of natural wrestling ability, you dont need to think about anything and things usually work your way very easily

LOL
I'm sure you're kidding, 'cause that attitude is just asking for trouble. LOL

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
Super serious though:
Why don't people insist on groundfighting arts working on their substandard standup? Seems like it should go both ways. Not unlike men in prison.

They do. It's not uncommon for grapplers to cross train in muay thai or boxing.

Actually, hows about you do what you like, get good, and quit worrying about real or imagined holes in your training?

Spread it too thin, and there ain't enough butter for the bisquit!

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? forms, hundreds of techniques, weapons, chi gung, chi sao, trapping, chin na, iron body... Who is spreading themselves too thin here?

[kungfu cowboy]

Well, they should have to xtrain in wing chun to balance the argument!

So we should get rid of all martial arts except for:

BJJ
Muay Thai
Boxing

as all the others are useless or substandard.

This seems to be the ideal.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Knifefighter:

Since so many people I like and have come to respect enjoy much of your anti-wing chun remarks I decided to go back and reread that thread and this one about Catch...

And while I still have some doubts about exactly where you're coming from (attitude wise)...nonetheless you put alot of thought into this thread...so I'll respond further about Catch and BJJ.

About Karl Gotch and his distain for the guard position: You should know that when he first went to Japan he was awarded a black belt in judo after spending exactly one day in the class -because they were so much in awe of what he could do against them with Catch...

I mentioned on the CONNECTING WING CHUN w/GRAPPLING thread that there were a number of submissions that could be used almost immediately against the guard...and I will state once again that I won't divulge much about that on the internet.

But I will say this - it's not that difficult at all (especially for a wing chun guy with the hand skills developed) to NOT allow him- self to pullled in and/or to extricate himself and sit back up WITH ARMS/HANDS close to his body...if he is pulled in and down..
(ie.- see Sakuraba vs. Royce Gracie when in Royce's guard)...so that arms are not extended thereby providing the opportunity for the BJJ fighter to pull off an armbar or a triangle, or whatever)...

Now listen carefully....as this is just ONE fundamental way of quickly defeating the guard position...while "sitting" with the arms/hands back....REGARDLESS OF HIS ATTEMPTS TO ENGAGE/PULL/PUSH/GRAB your arms and head - or punch at you...

YOU NOW HAVE THE SUPERIOR POSITION...from the Catch point of view...because it is now (even if you just have one arm completely free for just a brief moment - although two is definitely possible)...it is now possible to downward elbow strike the nerves/arteries (pressure points) that exist on the insides of his legs (whether it's a closed guard or not)...

these points are about three inches away from his knee caps and up and in towards his thighs...HE CANNOT STOP YOU FROM BANGING THE 5HIT out of them...

and the pain is NOT bearable....his legs will split open and you can pass the guard or start setting him up for any number of submissions that I won't discuss...I'd rather show you someday.

[old jong]

Let's forget all about martial arts and go back to simple brawlling.The biggest and strongest will win as it is meant in nature anyway.

[Ernie]

old jong

no need to get rid of martial arts the biggest and the strongest still win most of the time today anyway ha ha ha

[kungfu cowboy]

Yeah, well maybe at shuffleboard!

[CHEUNG-WINGCHUN]

Originally posted by unkokusai


LOL
I'm sure you're kidding, 'cause that attitude is just asking for trouble. LOL

you didn't back anything you said up with anything at all?

i've been in over 500 wrestling fights on the street/school, which beats 2 - 3 jujitsu classes per week in a safe environment

think whatever you want, but when you wrestle everyday, (not fixed positions or safe manouvres) you learn some GOOD tricks

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
Well, they should have to xtrain in wing chun to balance the argument!

So we should get rid of all martial arts except for:

BJJ
Muay Thai
Boxing

as all the others are useless or substandard.

This seems to be the ideal.

Now you're being silly. I didn't say anything was useless. However, that combination is what has yielded the best results for most people, and it's been adopted as the "MMA formula". Many MMA guys have a traditional background - I've studied karate, longfist and kali, among other things, and there are guys at my gym that have studied aikido, tkd, karate, etc.

I am more comfortable with my thai boxing and my judo, so that's my method - thai boxing and judo for standup, bjj for ground. You gotta find what works for you. If you want to see if WC and grappling will mesh well - test it. Enter some tournies and get the experience of testing yourself.

Now, what I will agree to is that some styles have substandard training methods. As with my CMA example, learning all of that stuff, how long will it take you to get good at it? The learning curve tends to be higher with most CMA other than shuai chiao.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Knifefighter:

Since so many people I like and have come to respect enjoy much of your anti-wing chun remarks I decided to go back and reread that thread and this one about Catch...

And while I still have some doubts about exactly where you're coming from (attitude wise)...nonetheless you put alot of thought into this thread...so I'll respond further about Catch and BJJ.

About Karl Gotch and his distain for the guard position: You should know that when he first went to Japan he was awarded a black belt in judo after spending exactly one day in the class -because they were so much in awe of what he could do against them with Catch...

I mentioned on the CONNECTING WING CHUN w/GRAPPLING thread that there were a number of submissions that could be used almost immediately against the guard...and I will state once again that I won't divulge much about that on the internet.

But I will say this - it's not that difficult at all (especially for a wing chun guy with the hand skills developed) to NOT allow him- self to pullled in and/or to extricate himself and sit back up WITH ARMS/HANDS close to his body...if he is pulled in and down..
(ie.- see Sakuraba vs. Royce Gracie when in Royce's guard)...so that arms are not extended thereby providing the opportunity for the BJJ fighter to pull off an armbar or a triangle, or whatever)...

Now listen carefully....as this is just ONE fundamental way of quickly defeating the guard position...while "sitting" with the arms/hands back....REGARDLESS OF HIS ATTEMPTS TO ENGAGE/PULL/PUSH/GRAB your arms and head - or punch at you...

YOU NOW HAVE THE SUPERIOR POSITION...from the Catch point of view...because it is now (even if you just have one arm completely free for just a brief moment - although two is definitely possible)...it is now possible to downward elbow strike the nerves/arteries (pressure points) that exist on the insides of his legs (whether it's a closed guard or not)...

these points are about three inches away from his knee caps and up and in towards his thighs...HE CANNOT STOP YOU FROM BANGING THE 5HIT out of them...

and the pain is NOT bearable....his legs will split open and you can pass the guard or start setting him up for any number of submissions that I won't discuss...I'd rather show you someday.

How are you controlling his torso? What's stopping him from sitting up and attacking?

[kungfu cowboy]

Do what you love and the money will follow!:)

[Ultimatewingchun]

SevenStar:

I'm posting a leg/foot...which will play a key role in not only stopping him from sitting up and attacking...but there's so much that can happen with it posted to the advantage of the Catch fighter.

P.S. - If he underhooks the ankle/leg - he only makes it easier for any one of numerous Catch submissions to result - contrary to what BJJ thinks it can do with that underhook.

But I WILL NOT GO ANY FURTHER about those possible submissions, and why the underhook provides a huge oppotunity for the Catch fighter - they literally have to be seen - not endlessly debated over the internet.

So I will return back to my first point - the BJJ fighter cannot stop the elbow strikes that will not only split his legs far apart - but the pain will provide ample opportunity for the Catch fighter to start entering into the submissions - OR-

the split in the BJJ fighter's legs - coupled with the pain (and the time that the shocking pain provides the Catch fighter)...these two factors can often make for a total passing of the guard into the full mount.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
these points are about three inches away from his knee caps and up and in towards his thighs...HE CANNOT STOP YOU FROM BANGING THE 5HIT out of them... Of course he can... do you think those of us who train Vale Tudo BJJ have not had that done to us many times in the past?



Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
mentioned on the CONNECTING WING CHUN w/GRAPPLING thread that there were a number of submissions that could be used almost immediately against the guard...and I will state once again that I won't divulge much about that on the internet. I'm always a little suspect about the "too deadly to be explained on the internet", but OK. Of course there are many submissions that can be used against the open or closed guard... we use them in BJJ all the time when someone has a guard that is tough to pass. However, it's not a simple matter to just pull them off, as most guard players have a large number of counters to them.

My problem with your statements on grappling is that I think you don't have that much real hands on experience with experienced submission grapplers. My bet is that you have taken a few seminars, have some tapes, and roll with the students in your studio who claim to have much more grappling experience than they actually do (one clue to this was the "experienced" BJJ guy you were working with from the mounted postion and his response to your bridging attempt to unbalance him and make him post his arm) . And I don't think this is a very viable background on which to make sweeping statements such as catch being "superior".

As far Tony's C, he doesn't come across with an attitude of superiority (at least he didn't with a bunch of BJJ guys in the room). However, I would immediately challenge any assertions of superiorty if he was claiming them.

If you really want to test some of your theories against decent BJJ guys (rather than just some of your students who claim to have BJJ training), stop by Maxercise (ask my friend, little Tony, to tell you some interesting stories about a "famous" catch guy training there), Renzo Gracie's, Steve Kardanian's, or Phil Magalarize's BJJ schools, all of which are in your area. Spar with them and I think you will come away with a different attitude about the "superiority" of Catch.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
If he underhooks the ankle/leg - he only makes it easier for any one of numerous Catch submissions to result - contrary to what BJJ thinks it can do with that underhook.

But I WILL NOT GO ANY FURTHER about those possible submissions, and why the underhook provides a huge oppotunity for the Catch fighter - they literally have to be seen - not endlessly debated over the internet. I will then...

It makes it that much easier for the top guy to step over into a submission.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Well then thank you for agreeing with me that the guard can be beaten by Catch Wrestling moves.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Well then thank you for agreeing with me that the guard can be beaten by Catch Wrestling moves. Of course it can. I do it all the time, myself. Doesn't make it superior, though.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Knifefighter: Eh...no...excuse me...but I'm sorry - since I can tell just as many stories about experienced BJJ guys going to Tony Ceechine seminars and either getting smoked or just laying back and enjoying the ride without objecting when Tony starts explaining and showing how to deal with BJJ.

Which he always does in a gentlemanly way.

As for me - I've worked out with BJJ folks with 30 years experience - as well as novices - intermediates, etc. BJJ is an excellent grappling system - as I've said many times...but it's not the best.

Get over it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Oh yeah...and P.S....I'll say it again....

You CAN'T stop the elbow strikes to the insides of the legs near the knees - not against good wing chun hands anyway - which you obviously don't know about - regardless of your "6-7" wing chun years.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
BJJ is an excellent grappling system - as I've said many times...but it's not the best.

Get over it. I never said it was the best, although I believe it has fewer weakenesses than catch.

The best grappling system is a combination of BJJ, Sambo/Judo, freestyle/folkstyle/Greco-Roman, and catch/submission that takes the best elements from each.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Oh yeah...and P.S....I'll say it again....

You CAN'T stop the elbow strikes to the insides of the legs near the knees - not against good wing chun hands anyway - which you obviously don't know about - regardless of your "6-7" wing chun years. You might be surprised at what I can or can't do.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Now look...this really has to be my final post on this thread...
because you're just so far gone that I'm really beginning to waste my time.

You just said that BJJ has far fewer weaknesses than Catch - to which your opening post on this thread attempting to explain Catch's weaknesses only betray the fact that you know very little about Catch...at least not the Catch that Tony Cecchine teaches...and believe me when I tell you that he's miles ahead of anyone teaching Catch openly in this country. So get your hands on his tapes and/or attend one of his seminars...AND THEN GO BACK AND READ YOUR FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD...

You'll be embarassed, to say the least.

Secondly...the absurdity of saying that you know and use Catch moves to defeat the BJJ guard...while still maintaining your "Catch is inferior" position...this absurdity borders on the ridiculous.

I've really had enough of this thread.

Adios,

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by CHEUNG-WINGCHUN

i've been in over 500 wrestling fights on the street/school, which beats 2 - 3 jujitsu classes per week in a safe environment

think whatever you want, but when you wrestle everyday, (not fixed positions or safe manouvres) you learn some GOOD tricks

I'm sorry I didn't see this nonsense earlier! Is this fool still about?

[yuanfen]

Spread it too thin, and there ain't enough butter for the bisquit!
(kung fu cowboy)

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? forms, hundreds of techniques, weapons, chi gung, chi sao, trapping, chin na, iron body... Who is spreading themselves too thin here?
(seven star)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, there is not much sustained discussion of wing chun- even though it is labelled as a wing chun forum!! This is NOT knocking sevenstar or knifefighter. It is a critique of wing chun folks who get sidetrached away from serious in depth discussion of wing chun. Discussion- not pontification or lineage waving, sarcasm, oneupmanship.

I am struck by how little in depth discussion of wing chun and taichi there is
in the differnt kfo forums. Apparently top flight southern mantis people dont really discuss either except for occasional personal attacks. Serious folks in serious arts seem to have gone elsewhere-folks who are not in awe of the mma mix.

Apart from street applications- some wc folks have particpated in open full contact matches in parts of Asia.

What can I say- folks get sidetracked into superficial comparisons with other arts/sports highlighted by the visual media.

The so called mma formula -mixes of box/muay/jj is geared for
sporting events. That is not knocking in any way the courage of anyone entering those events or any contact event..

A tried and proven CMA like wing chun has developmental principles for varying contexts for self defense. With good guidance and sticking with the principles- the range of applications for individuals increase with learning, practice and experience.

Sevenstar-Wing Chun does not spread itself thin- all the items listed above
are interlinked in a very consistent systemic way. But it does take longer to learn than basic muay thai. BTW- trapping, iron body- are misleading labels. None of them including chin na, chi gung, weapons are logically separate arts- they are all developmental stages and growth along the wing chun path .

Knifefighter- nothing wrong with conditioning- a necessary but not sufficient thing for skill development. And conditioning should be activity specific. Obviously- Genki Sudo in UFC 47 hasa somewhat different training regimen than the rest.

WC can be adapted with proper coaching for sport competition- for those who are so inclined. For some good folks however - not enough money or principle is involved in going the sporting route.
Self defense and self development is higher than sport in their hierarchy of values.

WC does not need iron body- some do iron palm and wall bag work in addition to the jong. Different kinds of trapping and chinna occurs naturally with proper wing chun maturation.
They are not separate arts or isolated techniques.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by yuanfen
The so called mma formula -mixes of box/muay/jj is geared for sporting events.



WC can be adapted with proper coaching for sport competition- for those who are so inclined. For some good folks however - not enough money or principle is involved in going the sporting route.
Self defense and self development is higher than sport in their hierarchy of values. WC is no more valid for self defense than is the MMA mix.

[Nick Forrer]

depends entirely on whos trying to defend themselves

[joy chaudhuri]

knifefighter sez:
WC is no more valid for self defense than is the MMA mix.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont think so- but it depends on competencies of individuals as well.

Most of the critiques of wc that I have heard on the forum- flows from arrested wing chun development IMO.

I think that it is a waste of time to debate wing chun with non wing chun people who dont know much wing chun. Forum talk is just forum talk. I for one always hope for greater insights from
top flight wing chun people.

I have no problem with people defecting to mma- the more the merrier. WC was nevera mass art and attempts to make it one imo is a mistake.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Mistake #1 -

Thinking that wing chun has all the answers one could ever need against a real good takedown artist.

Mistake #2 -

Thinking that, once on the ground against a good ground- grappler, - wing chun has all the answers one could ever need to win the fight from there.

Conclusion:

Wing Chun is no more valid for self defense than the MMA mix.

[Phil Redmond]

Joy, You wrote >>Most of the critiques of wc that I have heard on the forum- flows from arrested wing chun development IMO.<<

It was good of you to write "IMO". Yip Man taught erratically. Pardon my choice of words, but he taught different aspects to different people. He would tell people they were doing something right when they may not have been. Also, some of us are aware of another situation in Yip Man's life. I've studied from 3 direct students of Yip Man and they all concur. So outside of some of the basic tenets of WC that we commonly share none of us can say they have THE truth regarding WC.

[yuanfen]

Phil-

"history" even recent history involves perceptions. Hence I always have the qualifier IMO in mind. Truth-? Ultimately there is only emptiness.


I understand that Ip Man taught "erratically"(your words). I prefer
"unevenly" or "selectively"..

The habit of saying yes-yes which is mentined sometimes applied to his public classes' He would often just let some senior students do the actual teaching while he just sat or moved around.

Wing chun was his living and he was unlikely to give out freebies.
Those who took addittional private lessons paid through the nose
and he was quite careful in his instruction there ..and there was quality control . Some fudged on tuition and some were erratic in attendance-not an uncommon phenomenon in many kinds of training and education.

I am not naive about his private life and I do not regard him as a saint.

By the time his sons came from the mainland- his public teaching was just about over. His health deteriorated till his death shy of a decade later.

Much of the stories on Ip Man or learning from him is self serving.
No point in opening the closet of self serving stories.

There is a way by which folks can sort out much of wing chun---by putting lineage aside however temporarily and seriously and failry egolessly discuss the what, when, how and why of wing chun principles and applications. Without sarcasm or one upmanship(its usually the men). Moments of serious discussions when that happens are very fleeting- and extremly rare on the net.

Face to face serious conversations about the art are so much better even though perceptions can vary there too.

I do not mechanically depend on "sifu sez" or "Ip man sez". I analyze and test and think and experiment. Wing chun consistencies have not failed me yet.

With just a little bit of wc(not you) folks start giving advice, pontificating, bragging or critiquing or get sidetracked and engaging in mma discussions..

Lots of noise- very little information on the net.

[Ernie]

joy

it's funny i read your last post about real information being shared , and the realitiy is those that '' claim'' to have real information . either only talk about historical crap that is just meaningless .
or they skirt questions with answers like '' not all wing chun is created equal '' or if you knew the real wing chun you wouldn't ask that question .

you never here them offer information like , well we address that issue in this or that drill and thne add this to make it functional .

never .

it's like they just hide behind catch phrases , that have been handed down .

it really sucks , these supposed informed people offer no tangible information .

but they love to pick apart others . and answer with generic stories .

i think if these '' self proclaimed kings of the castle '' really had solid wing chun and cared for the wing chun folks in general they would just step up and share there experiences . right or wrong it's just the honest effort that counts .

sure there are trolls just waiting to get there rocks off and attack .
but that will always be there

but there are a lot of new people and good people that can learn from others experience .

i never understood why people hide there knowledge since it's not theres to begin with , it was handed down and should be passed on .

i guess it all comes back to pride and money

oh well people are odd creatures

:)

[PaulH]

Not all history stories are equal, Ernie! I like this one. Ha! Ha! I don't know why people are so uptight lately. Just wanna have some fun. =)

The Prime Minister of the Tang Dynasty was a national hero for his success as both a statesman and military leader. But despite his fame, power, and wealth, he considered himself a humble and devout Buddhist. Often he visited his favorite Zen master to study under him, and they seemed to get along very well. The fact that he was prime minister apparently had no effect on their relationship, which seemed to be simply one of a revered master and respectful student.
One day, during his usual visit, the Prime Minister asked the master, "Your Reverence, what is egotism according to Buddhism?" The master's face turned red, and in a very condescending and insulting tone of voice, he shot back, "What kind of stupid question is that?"

This unexpected response so shocked the Prime Minister that he became sullen and angry. The Zen master then smiled and said, "THIS, Your Excellency, is egotism."

[Gangsterfist]

I do not know catch wrestling at all, only what victor has pointed me towards. I am grateful to have the knowledge of the system now I can research it further if I wanted to do so.

I will admit I have some years of experience in martial arts, in several systems. Wing Chun so far is one of my favorites. I train it everyday. I have not had like 30 to 40 years experience like some of the people on this forum. So, when people like victor, phil, and joy speak I listen. I know they all have decades of experience with wing chun. Joy finds that wing chun has never failed him. Thats great. Wing chun has never failed me either, but I have not really put it to the full test either. Any real fight I have been in ended pretty quickly, either with words or with fists. However, I never start fights (its usually friends of mine) but I do get dragged into some.

Victor says his experience says catch wrestling helps him out as a fighter extensively. That is great. He is meeting his goals by expanding his martial arts knowledge.

Then there is ernie, the man just tells you like it is. I like that aspect a lot. I think a lot of wing chun is too much theory no reality.

Each of us can put forth our own views towards wing chun and we can each learn from one another.

Joy, have you ever trained another martial art besides wing chun? If yes, would you say those attributes and skills you gained from the other system carry over to wing chun?

I just recently learned a southern dragon short form (only has 19 postures) that is similar to wing chun in many aspects and has some really neat things that can be used with wing chun. So, I started training and practicing them all this last week. I don't think my wing chun is inferior in any way, shape, or form because I learned another style of martial arts. I learned it to expand my horizons as a martial artist, not to pick up where wing chun lacks. I am no expert on wing chun, but I am no beginer either. If I were to ever start teaching wing chun in the future, I would definately also teach additional arts with it (taiji, boxing, that dragon form, and some sort of grappling). Just to expand some ideas about wing chun.

I agree with joy's post about being more constructive towards wing chun. Sometimes its hard to put aside ego and lineage. Especially when there is someone attacking your lineage with their ego.

[Ernie]

g fizzle my nizzle :D

one thing you pointed at that is so true , i to learn from every one that puts it out there in a honest way ,

somethimes it's just a better way to say somehting i allready know , a better way to get the point across
i have borrowed terms from every one
form joy,jong,phil.hendrik to hfy guys [ tony ,william. etc.]
i mean every one

and i am very thankful for there input and knowledge
and in turn try and kick back something into the pot from my experience

and good things come

the boxing thread proved to me that it is possible for all of us to contribute something and not get side tracked i can only hope this trend will continue

as joy put it we have lost some a few great voices due to '' silly '' energy

but for me personally i have met some kick butt friends from this forum and i plan on meeting more :D

[yuanfen]

Ernie sez:
i guess it all comes back to pride and money

((Ernie- I understand where you are coming from. For me-actually I am a quite gabby and sharing guy. Wing chun is my love- not my living. But with sharing- there are folks who when faced with only knee jerk cynicism- just think- just chuck it! Just watch and sometimes laugh))
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
gangsterfist sez-

Joy, have you ever trained another martial art besides wing chun? If yes, would you say those attributes and skills you gained from the other system carry over to wing chun?


((GF- I dont push my ma cv. Been around the pond with different styles and "real" self defense. No point in trying to beat one's drum. Pre wing chun- I had my own mix of striking, grappling and kicking. Wing chun consistently- since 1976(MA lot longer than that)- without a break- and adjusting to things along the way. I do visit and watch other styles, have practiced some myself. But for me- the wing chun paradigm has absorbed the insights of other arts along the way. But I have been humble about learning from good pugilists, kickers, grapplers, stick people and knife people.
When I hit with the hook these days- its a wing chun hook not a boxing hook. Thus I do not swivel on the ball of my front foot for hooks anymore or load up on my shoulders. The power is still there but there are more versatile uses. My chor ma is the source of my wing chun hook. Thats a very specific example-(no bs or noise) of "absorption" into the wing chun paradigm. If you miss witha boxing hook- you can be monetarily off balance. Not so in wc if you have your chor ma/chum kiu down pat. You can convert the motion inside someones house(gates) to something else.
When I kick someones knee on the side-its witha wing chun instep kick- nota bando kick or a muay t kick.
Sorry- for any typos- believe ot or not I spell well but key board poorly with one or two fingers while snacking or whatever.

yuanfen/joy

[Gangsterfist]

Sorry- for any typos- believe ot or not I spell well but key board poorly with one or two fingers while snacking or whatever.


Perhaps biu gee finger jabs will help your keyboarding skills while you eat - lol just kidding.

I hear ya joy. When I cross train its not because I think wing chun lacks (to be honest I like to have multiple perspectives on things) it is because I have the desire to learn more than just wing chun. I will always practice wing chun and never give it up as long as I can, but will also train other systems. Before I die I would like to train in CLF and perhaps hsing-i or another internal art. I would also like to go back to my okinawan karate and get my black belt (I was almost a brown belt when I moved and had to stop training).

I train ground fighting with the ground fighters I know. There are some BJJ, JJ, Judo, wrestling people I know that I train with every now and again. We will share techniques. I show them a few wing chun things, they show me a few things from their system.

When it comes down to it, I am mostly just about learning. For example I learned a complete southern dragon form last week, and have been practicing it every day along with my wing chun. Its a neat little form, and IMO can be effectively used with wing chun.

Good luck to everyone in their training,
GF

[Ernie]

Sorry- for any typos- believe ot or not I spell well but key board poorly with one or two fingers while snacking or whatever.



hey don't worry joy i am the king of typos
i might impress people one day if i ever took the time to reread what i type or discover spell check ha ha ha

[FooFighter]

Knifefighter

I am not an expert on wing chun gung fu or an expert of grappling but I have been trained in wing chun longer than I have in BJJ. I have trained and taken lessons at Renzo Gracie Academy and Marcos Santo schõol and even taken lessons in Sambo at FightHouse in NYC. I have never been to any grappling seminar and all my knowledge of Catch Wrestling has come from seconded experience: books, essays, and DVDs.

I dont understand why you would insult Catch by calling inferior. But you are correct in some of your points. If Wing Chun artists had to cross train in grappling arts, I think anyone with common sense and hard work can make some use in any grappling arts and while there are pros and cons. It the Grappling world, I am learning these martial artists are adapting far faster than conventional martial artists such as wing chun. It is still my belief that wing chun gung fu does have some useful techniques in its forms. Duncan Leung and Alan Lee has taught me to look at each movement within the forms as indivdual signs like the the letters in the alphabets instead of prearranged techniques. So somewhere within the form, I believe an intelligent wing chun artist could create new tenchiques to manage against a grappler? This doesnt mean wing chun is better than grappling, but it can manage to adapt as best as it can on the standup phase and in mid range of combat.

"Fights are unpredictable and the Wing Chun fighter would be wise to supplement his stand up training with a comprehensive ground system." I agree. Most Wing Chun in the past has studied western fighting arts such as boxing to counter it intelligently and still we have debates on how to handle a jab and hõok. LOL.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is an art that specializes in groundfighting/groundgrappling. It was originally developed from Japanese judo/jujutsu. Catch wrestling also specializes in groundgrappling and has its roots in English/European catch-as-catch-can grappling traditions. Both systems have a variety of submissions (or hooks) designed to disable an opponent. The two disciplines have several theoretical and practical differences which are contrasted below:

Fighting from an Inferior Position:
No matter how good your takedowns are, if you meet a better takedown artist or someone who is significantly larger than you are, you will probably end up on the bottom if the fight goes to the ground. Being on the bottom is a very disadvantageous position in which to find oneself. A fighter who can fight effectively from the bottom position significantly increases his chances of surviving or winning if he ends up in this inferior position on the ground.

BJJ has taken the basic bottom ground defensive position of Judo (the guard) and refined it to the point that a good BJJ fighter has as good or better chance of winning the fight as the person who is in the top position. There are literally hundreds of joint breaks, chokes, and sweeps in a variety of variations that have been developed in BJJ for use when on the bottom. The guard has become such a strong offensive weapon that some BJJ fighters even prefer to be in this position.

Catch wrestling, on the other hand, has not developed much of a repertoire of bottom fighting (some Catch wrestlers even speak disdainfully of the guard by calling it the "*****" position) and most Catch wrestlers prefer to attempt to regain the top position. However, this is easier said than done when one comes across a ground grappler who is talented (and/or bigger) at maintaining the top controlling position. Unfortunately, for the Catch practitioner in this situation, he doesn’t have much of an offensive arsenal when on the bottom.

Mixing Strikes, Breaks, and Chokes:
Striking an opponent, breaking a joint, or choking him unconscious are the three main methods to incapacitate an opponent in an unarmed combative encounter. An art that successfully combines these three will have an advantage over an art that does not.

Most people understand that the BJJ system is made up of a large number of joint breaks and chokes. Many people are not as familiar with the ground striking in this art. BJJ is comprised of gi training and Vale Tudo (anything goes) training. The gi training is pure grappling and is made up of positioning, sweeps, chokes, and joint locks. BJJ Vale Tudo training is composed of striking, in addition to many of the submissions found in the gi training. Three of the four main positions that are given top priority in BJJ (the knee ride, the mount, and the back mount) are mainly striking positions.

By contrast, Catch wrestling is strictly a grappling art. Catch has many submissions, but does not include striking into the system. Without strikes and the understanding of the positions necessary to create powerful strikes, the Catch wrestler has a distinct disadvantage compared to the BJJ practitioner.


Position Before Submission, Submission From Any Position:
An accomplished grappler understands the positions that allow for both maximum control and maximum opportunity to inflict damage to an opponent. Although he strives for a superior position, a competent grappler will have the knowledge and ability to finish an opponent if a joint break or choke presents itself from a less than ideal position.

BJJ strives to find a position that will provide the greatest control and/or allow for maximum damage to the opponent. The four positions that allow for these criteria are known as the side control position, the mount, the knee ride (or knee on stomach/knee mount), and the back mount. At the same time, a competent BJJ practitioner will know when to go for finishes from less than ideal positions such as the 1/2 guard, the guard, when mounted, or even when transitioning from one position to the next if the opportunity presents itself. BJJ has submissions from every position on the ground.

Catch wrestling has a different philosophy and places very little emphasis on positioning. Because of this, Catch practitioners will often attempt submissions when they have opportunities to first establish a position that will make these submissions less risky to apply. Catch wrestlers are also unsophisticated about the bottom guard position and, because of this, have relatively few offensive weapons from the bottom position.

Use of Clothing:
Most real-life encounters involve both combatants fully clothed wearing shirts, sweatshirts, and or jackets. Being able to control an opponent and apply chokeholds using the opponent’s or one’s own clothing can add greatly to a person’s fighting proficiency on the street.

Due to its training with the gi, BJJ has a large range of techniques that can be used to control and disable an opponent using the opponent’s shirt, sweatshirt, or jacket. There are a wide variety of chokes available to the BJJ practitioner using not only the opponent’s clothing, but his own as well.

Catch wrestling, on the other hand, mostly ignores the importance of using clothing in fighting applications. Because of this Catch has no control or choke techniques using an opponent’s clothing.


Conclusion:
My conclusion is that Catch wrestling is an inferior choice for grappling supplementation to Wing Chun. Wing Chun practitioners who wish to supplement their training with groundfighting would be much better served by Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. [/B][/QUOTE]

[old jong]

But don't forget that choosing a martial art is not the same as choosing a car!...The options don't work by themselves in a martial art.You must be able to make them work with you own physical and personal attributes.The best art for some guy may be ill adapted for the other. so: It depends on the guy,as always!...;)In a race,the winner is the one who can drive his car better,not the car. (Formula 1 not included!);)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Foofighter:

You and Dale Frank...or is it Steve Ewing...(alias Knifefighter) really need to go back to the beginning of this thread and read what I wrote about Catch Wrestling - as a response to Knifefighter's initial thrust(s).

The guard position is one of the most overworked and overrated positions (strategies) in all of the martial arts...

The guard doesn't contain "literally hundreds of possible submissions and breaks"...(after the triangle choke and the arm-bar all the rest belong in a book- not the reality of a streetfight - because they almost never work)... and nothing could be further from the truth about Catch being limited....the reverse is the truth...the amount of submissions AND positions used in Catch are virtually unlimited - compared to BJJ.

One last word about the guard - Catch has about a half dozen different ways of beating it...and by that I'm not just talkng about breaking out of it - but of turning the tables on the guy on the bottom so that he will quickly submit.

And the reason why I personally recommend Catch Wrestling to anybody (and especially Wing Chun fighters) is precisely because the Catch emphasis on CONTROL AND SUBMISSION means that Catch can submit you from any number of positions...not just the limited few (and the limited formula for progressive positioning) that BJJ adheres to....in other words...

there's more you can do with Catch...including standup submissions and submissions from a kneeling position - which is more conducive to the spontaneous strategy and numerous variations that Wing Chun uses (ie.- the alphabet you, yourself, referred to).

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by FooFighter
I dont understand why you would insult Catch by calling inferior. I only called it inferior as a response to UWC's (who obviously has extremely limited knowledge of BJJ based on his posts about it) post where he stated that catch was superior to BJJ.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
The guard doesn't contain "literally hundreds of possible submissions and breaks"...(after the triangle choke and the arm-bar all the rest belong in a book- not the reality of a streetfight - because they almost never work)... And you know that how?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay...Dale Frank....Steve Ewing:

Let me just throw the question back at you. By now I've seen what seems like hundreds of UFC and Pride fights wherein somebody is in the guard (and I do have literally over a hundred matches on tape by now)...don't ever remember seeing even one submission come out of it that wasn't one of the two I just mentioned...Have seen photos in magazines and what not of the omaplata arm lock (or whatever it's called)...but never saw it actually put on successfully in a MMA event.

Why is that ?

[kj]

Originally posted by yuanfen
There is a way by which folks can sort out much of wing chun---by putting lineage aside however temporarily and seriously and failry egolessly discuss the what, when, how and why of wing chun principles and applications. Without sarcasm or one upmanship(its usually the men). Moments of serious discussions when that happens are very fleeting- and extremly rare on the net.

Face to face serious conversations about the art are so much better even though perceptions can vary there too.

<snip>

With just a little bit of wc(not you) folks start giving advice, pontificating, bragging or critiquing or get sidetracked and engaging in mma discussions..

Lots of noise- very little information on the net.

I could hardly agree more.


Originally posted by Ernie
it's funny i read your last post about real information being shared , and the realitiy is those that '' claim'' to have real information . either only talk about historical crap that is just meaningless .
or they skirt questions with answers like '' not all wing chun is created equal '' or if you knew the real wing chun you wouldn't ask that question .

you never here them offer information like , well we address that issue in this or that drill and thne add this to make it functional .

never .

it's like they just hide behind catch phrases , that have been handed down .

it really sucks , these supposed informed people offer no tangible information .

but they love to pick apart others . and answer with generic stories .

i think if these '' self proclaimed kings of the castle '' really had solid wing chun and cared for the wing chun folks in general they would just step up and share there experiences . right or wrong it's just the honest effort that counts .

I'm a bit lost and uncertain who these always and nevers are, and reluctant to make assumptions. Perhaps it's an archetypical or composite generalization rather than an assertion about actual and individual forum members?


sure there are trolls just waiting to get there rocks off and attack .
but that will always be there

Yes, unfortunately there will always be that.


but there are a lot of new people and good people that can learn from others experience .

i never understood why people hide there knowledge since it's not theres to begin with , it was handed down and should be passed on .

Lots of reasons why people may not be sharing a great deal at a given point in time. Some common explanations are far less sinister. For examples: not enough time to post (e.g., other priorities and demands of life); excessively challenging to exchange on some topics or technicalities given different backgrounds and premises; differences in communications styles and skills; lack of common interest (for example, popular topics like MMA not particularly interesting to someone like me, and topics of interest to someone like me apparently not of high interest to frequent posters).

It often boils down to opportunity costs - everything we spend time on is at the expense of time for something else, contributions to discussion forum topics being no exception.


i guess it all comes back to pride and money

Sometimes, though I don't buy always. As complex beings, there are lots of underlying motivators to deliciously complicate things. If we look carefully and patiently enough, wholly or partially admirable qualities are sometimes involved (e.g., aspects of loyalty, gratitude, humility, effective time management, etc.).



oh well people are odd creatures


You got that right - odd and interesting! I may occasionally catch myself becoming annoyed, frustrated or impatient, though being somewhat philosophically inclined, I've yet to convince myself I'd have it any other way.

Back over to y'all for Catch and other debates. At least until more interesting [to me] topics pop up. ;)

Regards,
- kj

[Ernie]

kathey

what's up stranger :)

who am i talking about , well it's one of those if the shoe fits things .

anyone who answers genericly with programmed responses

like all wing chun is not created equal blay blah

that is a cop out .
explain why perhaps this other version works better offer a detailed discription or drills that dial in the said attribute

i think people asnwer this way out of not having the real answer


to me it's like this

it's not that complicated , if you really inderstand things you should be able to find a simple way of answering and sharing information

problem is i feel people don't want to be called out on there answers , or perhaps in some cases admit they don't have a personal experience with that question or situation

which sucks , if you don't know then you don't know doesn't make you less of a sifu or wing chun person

anyone who claims to know everything is a liar , fooling themselves or there students

i got no respect for that type of person

but the person that can admit well you know i'm not sure lets play with it and see what happens

now that is impressive

but i do understand there are different levels of interest in anything so i'll catch you on the next post that brings you into the game :D

[kj]

Thanks Ernie - I get you better now. Seems more an issue with ways of behaving or responding than with characterizing individuals per se. This I can understand, especially from someone as straight-shooting as you are.

Just got back from a great week of training on the left coast; returned with a ton more stuff to work on as usual. The proverb "repair one's terrible kung fu" was authored for me. ;) Eternally grateful to those on this forum and off (you know who you are :)), who spent time with me and helped me out in all manner of ways.

It'll take me some time to dig out on messages, forums and what not. I'll keep watch for those rare topics that irresistibly draw me in, lol.

Meantime, take care, and watch out for bad guys. :D
- kj

[Phenix]

i have borrowed terms from every one
form joy,jong,phil.hendrik-----

Nah Ernie, you did borrowed my HULA DANCE terms yet.

See, NG MUi Goes to HAWAII. and thinking you all WCK people are just too not Dynamic at all with the YJKYM.

Some stand wide some stand narrow, but all like rigid robot. So,
Ng MUi invented the Huladance --- the sister of YJKYM in dynamic! the one set combination of SLT/CK?BJ. as seen below!



http://hulasource.com/hula4healthdvd.html

The invincible magic Tan Sau Hawaii way.
Notice the hands has to be close to 90 degree angle and not clamping the heck dead. and smile too, dont do it in a serious poker face and eyes of tiger. (WCK is suppose to be like in the picture Smile and relax!)


Ok borrow this term HULAKYM.

So, man, learn this new version of WCK before those Wrestling. You got to update your WCK first :D


BTW, this is Ng Mui's top secret on how to build up shock body energy. Qi into the Dantien, 1,2,3 chakras, Kundalini.....
http://www.joyofbellydancing.com/bdtips2.htm#Tips

ok, here it says joy of belly dancing. It is not saying Joy. :D have to clear it here so you dont mis-qoute Ernie. :D

[old jong]

I love belly dancing!:)

[Ernie]

i have a discount ticket for hawaii on my desk right now
looks like i might be working on that version of wing chun soon
:D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ernie
i have a discount ticket for hawaii on my desk right now
looks like i might be working on that version of wing chun soon
:D


Hey Man the shock HULAKYM is great! :D

The Belly Wann Yon Yiu ( return you sou waist :D as the back bend in BJ or Jim's KU LAU) is super!

Learn that before you do your BJ or BJJ or BJJJ :D A MUST!

[Ernie]

bro
i was born on a island can swing my hips with the best of them ha ha ha

[Phenix]

See, I light up this topic! :D



hahahahaha,

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
By now I've seen what seems like hundreds of UFC and Pride fights wherein somebody is in the guard (and I do have literally over a hundred matches on tape by now)...don't ever remember seeing even one submission come out of it that wasn't one of the two I just mentioned...Have seen photos in magazines and what not of the omaplata arm lock (or whatever it's called)...but never saw it actually put on successfully in a MMA event.

Why is that ? Wait a minute... I thought we were talking effectiveness in a street fight. Aren't you one of the people who said that a street fight is too different from the ring to draw conclusions?

Well, anyway... When I first started training, I used to hang out with a group of BJJ guys who used to go out and get a bit rowdy, so I have been witness to a variety of finishes from the guard in the street. Among them, in additiona to the triangles, arm bars and muultiple variations thereof:
-Several collar chokes.
- Umaplata/figure 4 toelock combo. Tank Abbot was also caught in this in a UFC.
- A variety of foot locks, heel hooks, and knee bars.
- Taking the back to the Mate Leon choke/arm bar.
- Not to mention the double wristlock, which is much more realistically applied from the guard than the way you were trying to do it when mounted.

And if you remember, in my post I was talking not just about submissions, but also sweeps which get you from the bottom and onto the top.

[Ernie]

kf[island dog]
hey
i plan on getting into some ground stuff this summer , i got a few sources , but you got any names in my area i should check out

i got no desire to really get all bjj'd out or go though the system just dabble a bit and spend some time one the ground with some trust worthy types


thanks

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ernie
i got no desire to really get all bjj'd out or go though the system just dabble a bit and spend some time one the ground with some trust worthy typesWatch out... you might get hooked like I did.

I'm not familiar with who is on your side of town. I think KWJ is probably a better source of info for that.

[Ernie]

Watch out... you might get hooked like I did

nah i have put some time in here and there but i just love being on my feet :D

in case i need to run away

i enjoy the work out on the ground , great way to break a sweat

i also like how it amps up my sensitivity

just another attribute tool
don't want to get lop sided
and have a preference

also don't want to be blind to the ground game

[Nick Forrer]

Hey Ernie

First time i rolled I got tapped out three times- two armbars cos i left my arm out and one rear naked cos i gave him my back.

[justinmorris]

I didnt have time to read this entire thread but I dont believe catch is totally inferior to BJJ - I have been doing BJJ for 10 years I received the blue belt from Royce gracie 7 years ago and now I am training as an affiliate of Pedro Sauer. About a month ago I rolled with David Menne his style is more like catch and he totally dominated me and we rolled about 40 times and I never even came close to getting him. At the same time I do think a begginer would do better with Jiujitsu because it is based more on position before submission and I think that was mentioned earlier. On another note I also think WC is a great addition to any grappling art. If any of you own a school I would love to send you out one of my free DVDs if you have a tape or DVD available a trade would be great :) just email me at justin@thirdheaven.com or pm me. thanks.

Justin
www.thirdheaven.com

[yuanfen]

Nick- Several years ago- for fun I got on the ground witha guy who has actually entered and won several mma and vale tudo matches.
I would deliberately(remaining alert) give him an arm and leg to see how is bar-s worked.
With my wc micro "adjustments" he could not complete his bar-s.I mention the possibilities- each case is different. Even if someone comes from the back for a choke there are wc countering moves if applied before the door of the choke is closed. Again each case is different.

Individual understanding of wing chun and practice- old saying there is no unstoppable move- but individuals can be foolish,
uninformed. inexperienced or without practice. The individual matters- not just the art.

[Ernie]

nick
i had similar experience to joy
the first guy i ever rolled with was a vale tudo and bjj blue belt
real ****y . his slogan was i am afraid of no man and he was undefeated in local events ,
i got fed up with his mouth one day and said screw it lets spar
first he tried coming in with boxing and thai stuff to try and get me in the clinch

but he was just plain slower then me , oddly never tried to shoot
but i told him i would only spar on the hard wood floors of the gym .

and to be honest i didn't play fair at all , iwas deep into my savate at the time so when ever he tried to come in i would toe kick him in the nuts

finally he just jumped on me with a flying knee anf got the clinch
we went down and he was in the trying to get the gaurd , while he was trying to get his hooks in i just slide out between his legs
he grabbed my neck to pin it on his chest
i had arm between my body and his so i slide my elbow down and just pryed it into his nuts

he kicked of and slide back

an told me i was only good at cheating

i said thank you

but on the same note i worked with vunak on the ground and it was like a slow motion cobra sucking the life out of me
no escape

when you play some one elses game excpect to lose it's just normal and can be fun

[Nick Forrer]

hi ernie/joy

it was just rolling- no strikes or attempts to stand up/ escape so WC didnt really come into it (although the tactile reflexes are always there!)

At one point i Knee'd him in the head by accident when trying to get him into my guard- we had to stop for a bit for him to recover.

still an interesting experience

[Ernie]

nick
for sure man , full body sensitivity , and a great work out
and just a cool way to become familer with the '' big gound mystery''oooooooohhhhh

i think every one should give it a shot just to experience the feeling first hand , and every once in a while just for a tune up

it's just another tool / enviroment to practice your skills

can still train the wing chun mindset

and see if you can insert your tools

when i play i never look for a sub mission i only look at escape and pain infliction , and position

i could care less about holding the tiger by the tail

if a submission just falls in my face cool i'll try it
but bone on bone pain infliction makes more street sense to me at my current levet of understanding

all subject to change in the next 30 seconds:D

[FooFighter]

Ultimatewingchun

If you think Catch wrestling is superior to BJJ than that is your opinion and I will not argue what works for you. But you sounds as dogmatic as KnifeFighter.

Personally if anyone is willing to cross train in any grappling art seriously in NYC, it should be at a Renzo Gracie academy. Because you actually learn and train with serious real deal MMA fighters and if you are serious about testing your skills, Victor. I would suggest that you get on their mat, roll, and try to apply your Catch techniques and then come back here with actually experience to back up your claims. It is like 25 buck a class and go at night and test out your skills there. I am not trying to pick on you, but if are sucessful in applying your catch game in that academy, then I am sure you shut alot of BJJ/wing chuners here. I am kind of curious to see if you be nutts enough to actually go do it.

[Shadowboxer]

:eek:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Listen Foofighter....somewhere around the spring of 2003, I believe it was (possibly earlier)...Renzo Gracie sat in his car in the parking lot at the mall in Laurel N.J. and sent one of his guys in to Keith Mazza's TWC school to check Keith out....the guy couldn't even come close to taking Keith down and got smacked and thrown around in the process....Realizing what was going on...Keith invited this guy to go back outside and tell Renzo to come in and try it for himself if he's so interested in seeing what TWC and the anti-takedown and grappling skills that Keith had was all about.

And that was the end of that...

So why would I want to walk into Renzo's school here in NY ?

For what reason ? To prove something to you ?

[Gangsterfist]

for sure man , full body sensitivity , and a great work out
and just a cool way to become familer with the '' big gound mystery''oooooooohhhhh

Hmm, where have I experienced that before in my wing chun training....

Oh yeah that little thing called chi sao.

Man chi sao is really a genious thing, and can be applied to everything if trained right.


...if applied before the door of the choke is closed. Again each case is different....

That is so true. I had this debate about two months ago with my kung fu brother. He was claiming his micro movement, immoveable elbow techniques would get out of any joint lock. I got him on the groun and clenched a scissor leged arm bar (whatever you call it), and I clenched it pretty hard. He immediately tapped out. If you can't feel the movement coming and act upon it, its too late. But if you can act upon it, wing chun anti-grappling techniques are very effective.


and to be honest i didn't play fair at all , iwas deep into my savate at the time so when ever he tried to come in i would toe kick him in the nuts

had arm between my body and his so i slide my elbow down and just pryed it into his nuts

told me i was only good at cheating

i said thank you

ROFL, OMG thats pretty funny. That is where ground fighting goes wrong IMO. Once you get down to the ground a lot of different factors come into play. If you do not train for that stuff in your (BJJ, judo, whatever) school then you are cheating yourself I think.

[Ernie]

hey victor

i'm having flashbacks from some ground stuff want ask you if you have ever tried this on

forgive me if i mess the terms up


o.k.
so i'm in the mount and the guy is in the gaurd
i have my back up sitting on my legs keeping him from pulling me in

at the same time i got his arms pinned down by holding both biceps trapped to the floor

now i'm in a stail mate right

well i get a little ghetto and just drop a head but into his solarplex

this freaks him out a bit and allows me to pop up to a low squat position

he still has his legs wrapped around me

then i play hammerfist monkey bongos on his nuts

this also causes him to freak out a bit and release his hold

then i just snag a ankle for a standing ankle break

ever seen that one:D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale Frank...(Steve Ewing?)...alias knifefighter:

So let me see if I've got this right...You've seen all these various moves and submissions done from the guard?.... IN THE STREET?... Of all places? Many times? Am I hearin' you right?

Well...Let me put it to you this way, man. Flat on my back is the last place I'd ever want to be in a real streetfight...and if I find myself there...and if a double-wristlock is not staring me in the face as an opportunity to be pulled off IMMEDIATELY...I'm outta there. That's the Catch way.

And multiple techniques (moves) used to get back up and on one's feet...and multiple ways to reverse the position from the body scissors (guard) so that I'm now on top...and ways to get back up as an immediate reaction to being taken down down before the aggressor can establish any kind of position... are all MAJOR components of the BASICS that are taught in Catch from day one.

...Including escaping and reversing one's way out from the cross side mount...north-south positions, defending against takedowns in general with sprawls, cross-faces, ****zers, etc.

You know - this whole Gracie Jiu-Jitsu thing about assuming that a bigger grappler type is probably almost always going to put you down on your back and therefore you better become an expert from the guard position really fascinates me...in a way...(and always has) - because it suggests a lot of MISSING standup striking and kicking skills and MISSING anti-takedown grappling skills...

Do you that that Danny Hodge... a great Pro Catch Wrestler back in the day, and former U.S. Olympic team-member, and believed by some to have been an even better amateur than Dan Gable....Hodge not only never lost an amateur NCAA free-style match...BUT WAS NEVER TAKEN DOWN EVEN ONCE AS AN AMATEUR.

What am I getting at? Whatever happened to developing great anti-takedown skills? How ironic is it that Mirko Cro Cop - who is first and foremost an excellent striker/kicker in the MMA world today - he has taken everybody back to school on how to sprawl and throw off attempted taledowns? How ironic is it that he (of all people) is the very best at defending takedowns than anyone else fighting in MMA events today?

And once down on the ground - as I've been saying - the guard is one of the most overworked and over-rated moves in all of grappling....Sakuraba (trained in Catch) proved this very convincingly during three different wins against three different Gracie's (including Royce).

Perhaps there really is a trend emerging in the UFC and Pride now - as Ernie alluded to on a recent thread...Striking, kicking, footwork, and anti-takedown defenses might actually start to replace two guys scissoring each other (the guard) and rolling around for 20 minutes looking for arm-bars and triangle chokes - while trying to avoid being taken out by the ground and pound...

Maybe this new trend will now become the main thrust of MMA events.

Wouldn't that be a kick in the a$$ !!!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

Aside from the fact that you did confuse some terms (you're not in the "mount" if the other guy has his legs scissored around you)...nonetheless - you're on the right track!

Sitting up to avoid being pulled in (though knowing you - you'd probably start biting something if you were pulled in)...but avoiding being pulled in and sitting up is definitely on the list of things to do when caught in someone's guard...another thing to remember is that you don't want to extend your arms too far and especially don't want to cross the centerline with one of your arms (the way armbars and triangle chokes are successful is that they try (for example) to grab your left arm/hand/wrist and pull your arm over to their left side...

Most of the other things you mentioned sound good assuming your hands are free enough to do all that without him trying to sit up and punch at you...attacking his inner thighs with elbows will also find a nice pressure point that will seriously encourage him to open his legs and make it easy for you to escape or perhaps pop up and take an ankle...there's a lot more detail to know about how to do these things without the BJJ guy countering....being careful about how you position your feet when doing a squat....the best way is to post onlyone leg and keeping the space very tight - much too much detail to go into it in full right here - but it's not that difficult (once you've trained it) to actually step over with that posted leg...turning him on his stomach - finishing him with a Boston Crab (which is actually an attack on the small of his back - not is leg)-...turn him over and heel hook the foot...and some other finishes as well.

But you're on the right right track.

[Ernie]

hey i'm talking ground fighting with victor well what do you know


ha ha

well you were dead on with the if he pulled my head in on his chest i would bite , yep right on the nipple and tear if he pushes my head to a side trying to pull a side position i bite the the lat or side of his face if he doesn't tuck in . just slide back and forth on either point
eventually i'll get some air space :)

or at least lunch


don't grapple a grappler but spend time in the pocket to develop the feel it takes to do what you need

this is all the kina muay thai stuff i went through a long time ago

if i ever get into it again i'll share some post on how the blend the jujitsu holds and positions with the biting
but my knowledge is very limitied in both right now

[Ernie]

Perhaps there really is a trend emerging in the UFC and Pride now - as Ernie alluded to on a recent thread...Striking, kicking, footwork, and anti-takedown defenses might actually start to replace two guys scissoring each other (the guard) and rolling around for 20 minutes looking for arm-bars and triangle chokes - while trying to avoid being taken out by the ground and pound...


hell you want to really have some fun screw this one on one crap
toss a few dudes in there on some cement and lets see how many people go to the ground or just do everthing in there power to stay on there feet

wonder of the '' hard core ground and pounders '' would sign up for that

i know i wouldn't :D

[KenWingJitsu]

Vitor my friend. I tried not to comment on this thread lol, but I have to.

"the BJJ fighter cannot stop the elbow strikes that will not only split his legs far apart "

Mmm. Not true. Although sometimes true. The "game when grapplign with strikes is not the same as when just grapling without strikes. Any BJJ'er who has trained Vale Tudo (anything goes) knows hos to prevent himself from being struck while having someone in their guard. the upper boy controls alone will prevent those "elbows". Which is why you dont see them in MMA.

As for the Omoplata,....well you need to watch more recent events. like the last UFC. Franca had a nice one on Edwards. it's not always a submission, but if the submission fails, it leads a sweep/turnover, which I believe is what happened. Also, Minotauro submitted Enson inoue with one (he added a toe hold to it whil Inoue was locked in), Frank Mir submitted tank Abbott with the same move Omoplata into a toe hold. it is being used & it does work.

Now it is true that not enough emphasis has been put on "anti-graplling" but its begining to happen. A la Chuck Lidell etc. but the only way to do it is to be comfortable with the grappling in the first place, that way you can defend whats coming and keep it standing if you want....or stand back up if you are takign down. It takes grappling skils ot be able to do that.

Now as far as the Renzo story, well,...I have my doubts. Not about the story in general, but I seriously doubt Renzo was in the car waiting to see if his student could take down a Kung Fu guy. That isn't renzo's style at all. Not saying the guy didnt come to check the place out, but I seriously doubt Renzo sent him. I've met Renzo and his students a few times. He's only worried about training fighters, not testing kung fu schools, so maybe it was an errant student who wanted to see what WC was about.

[FooFighter]

Victor:

I dislike rummors and second handed stories especially when it is used to prove an argument. I dont know if your Gracie and Mazza's story is completely "accurate"? And to speak ill against any person; be it Renzo or Mazza or William Cheung; etc show your poor character flaw, lack of self respect, and common decency. You should consider learning some manners instead of some grappling moves. I could easily go ask the Renzo Gracie's camp about your story but I am not a trouble maker nor is it worth the time because it proves nothing to my original suggestion.

If it was just a student of Renzo and not Renzo himself who got owned by Mazaa, what does that prove and what is your point to my originally sugesstion? You made it clear that wing chun is not enough to handle grapplers and it is necessarly to study grappling. Remember for the future of Wing Chun? If your story is true, then Mazza has proven himself again as good fighter and has disproves your argument of needing to add grappling into TWC or WC. Another thing, Victor, Mr. Mazza is not on trial nor is Mr. Gracie or their students, but YOU as a Catch wrestler. Lets keep this on you and your comments. Lets not hide behind war stories of others and speak only of your war stories, ok?

If Renzo refutes to fight, I am sure it due to legal issues and not because he is afraid to fight and you indirectly calling him a coward is so lame. Renzo is a really warrior and fought against other great warriors and for him to get dissed by someone like you is a sin, yes a sin indeed. How many real professional martial artists have you fought against? Your students dont count, Victor.
Mr. Mazza is a good fighter and I admire his willing to test his ability and fight and not talk crap. He for example never complaint about his back.

"So why would I want to walk into Renzo's school here in NY?" To work your Catch techniques against experienced grapplers and to have some substance experience to back your essays and arguments on Catch wrestling. Is that a good reason?

"For what reason?"
To actually test your ability and prove yourself and no one else.

"To prove something to you?"
Proving on the key board is one thing and proving in the real world is another thing.

Victor, I never claimed to be a great martial artists have given all due respect to BJJ and even Catch. You have made some big claims here and now I asking you have you ever pulled it off against someone who well trained and conditioned in BBJ?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Foofighter:

You're the one who started all this nonsense - challenging me to go to Renzo's school and try to show those guys that I can beat them...and now you're complaining - after opening this can of worms - now you're complaining about "second-hand stories" ???!!!

And who the f#ck are you to tell me that I'm on trial as a catch wrestler?

Who's trial?

Don't involve Renzo, or Keith, or William Cheung, or anybody else.

If you've got a problem with me - come and see me. Send me a pm.

[Nick Forrer]

My view

The merits of an art do not stand or fall on the performance of one individual in one instance - not bjj, not catch and not WC.

Fighting is often scissors paper stone i.e. a will be beat b, b will beat c and c will beat a.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Listen Foofighter....somewhere around the spring of 2003, I believe it was (possibly earlier)...Renzo Gracie sat in his car in the parking lot at the mall in Laurel N.J. and sent one of his guys in to Keith Mazza's TWC school to check Keith out....the guy couldn't even come close to taking Keith down and got smacked and thrown around in the process....Realizing what was going on...Keith invited this guy to go back outside and tell Renzo to come in and try it for himself if he's so interested in seeing what TWC and the anti-takedown and grappling skills that Keith had was all about.
?

:rolleyes:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dhira:

I didn't see the latest UFC and if people there and Minotauro in the past have pulled off these moves from the guard I certainly take your word for it that it's happened - but it doesn't change my mind about the guard position. It just tells me that the people who were beaten by the guard don't have the answers to dealing with it that Catch does...whether it be in the octagon, in the street, vale tudo, or whatever.

As regards using elbow strikes to split the guard legs open: certain chi sao manipulations (for lack of a better term) can be used to free an arm (oftentimes both arms) when the guard-holder is trying to hold your arms, pull you in, etc...and once you've sat up and especially after posting a leg - these manipulations can also play a major role in setting up the finish.

One such proto-typical wing chun move is to slap block (pak sao)the inside of the wrist of the man holding your arms with your other hand (I'm sure you know the move) - while simultaneously moving the held arm/wrist towards the direction of the incoming pak...

And once the arm is freed - the guard holder now owns NO TERRITORY between the tip of the elbow-point of the now freed arm and the pressure point (it's an artery) located no more than about 8 inches or so away. It's located near his knee about 3-4 inches down and toward the inside area of his thigh...

And since the elbow strike is downward - you are assisted by gravity in terms of force and power - while he on the other hand is fighting against gravity because he's laying on his back...and especially if your hips and posted leg are tight against him - crowding out his space and maneuverability and making it very difficult for him to sit up and strike at you - he's now vulnerable.

At which point one or two elbow strikes and his legs will open - and the pain should be significant enough to buy you time to start one of the finishing moves I described...or simply to stand completely up and back out from the guard altogether. I've done this move successfully a number of times - including against an experienced BJJ guy.

As regards Renzo...I'm only repeating what Keith told me; but as you suggested...it's possible that this was an errant student. Keith never said that he actually saw Renzo in the car - that is what this guy who came into his school said to Keith...

But you see....I don't know what the deal is in your neck of the woods - but here in NY (NJ) things like this happen all the time and nobody thinks anything of it. People come to check you out (or send a student to check you out) all the time. Was Renzo really sitting in that car? Who knows?

But nobody really cares. I completely forgot about it until this foofighter troll mentioned Renzo in the same sentence with the idea that I should go into somebody's school to test them.

No big deal - as I said. It's not about Renzo, or Keith, or William Cheung, or anybody else.

There are no 400 pound gorillas...no unbeatable styles...no unbeatable fighting families...

What this is really about is foofighter's annoyance that I've posted Catch's answers to and philosophy about the guard and other aspects of the BJJ he so dearly worships.

But I really don't give a rat's as5 about what foofighter thinks - whoever he is. He's just a troll who's looking for somebody to fight his battles for him (in this case it was Renzo and his students)...

But as I know you know - the best way to deal with a troll is to invite them to come out into the sunlight...Well maybe that's the second best way - the number one way is probably to ignore them altogether.

With regards,

Victor

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Nick- Several years ago- for fun I got on the ground witha guy who has actually entered and won several mma and vale tudo matches.
I would deliberately(remaining alert) give him an arm and leg to see how is bar-s worked.
With my wc micro "adjustments" he could not complete his bar-s. Which arm bar was he working? How did you do your wc microadjustments?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ernie

we went down and he was in the trying to get the gaurd , while he was trying to get his hooks in i just slide out between his legs
he grabbed my neck to pin it on his chest
i had arm between my body and his so i slide my elbow down and just pryed it into his nuts Most people would pop on a triangle here.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by justinmorris
I have been doing BJJ for 10 years I received the blue belt from Royce gracie 7 years ago and now I am training as an affiliate of Pedro Sauer. Justin- what is your current BJJ belt rank?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ernie


this freaks him out a bit and allows me to pop up to a low squat position

he still has his legs wrapped around me

then i play hammerfist monkey bongos on his nuts

this also causes him to freak out a bit and release his hold

then i just snag a ankle for a standing ankle break
This is where open guard work comes into play- sweeps, leg locks, etc.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale (Steve) says ...."most people would pop the triangle here" - in response to Ernie.


IF THEY ALSO HAVE YOUR ARM...

Didn't hear Ernie say that his arm was caught.

[Ernie]

victor
[[[Dale (Steve) says ...."most people would pop the triangle here" - in response to Ernie

IF THEY ALSO HAVE YOUR ARM...

Didn't hear Ernie say that his arm was caught.]]]]]

guys
first of all i have nowhere near the experience or knowledge of either of you guys

to point i was making is
i inflicted pain [ shock and awe ] which allowed me to move into better positions , just like anything it's not a single direct attack but a combination of motions .
being able to shell shock some one is one thing but being able to pot shot them on the way to another goal reading and responding to the body tightening up from the pain is a skill

this skill is what interest me on the ground or standing up . it momentarily remove a person from there element , you get them to hiccup so there normal defense is not there

the guy i was pulling this off on was very egotistcal and just tried to impose his will , so he wasn't really reading me .
when i smashed my head into his solarplex and jumped into the squat and slapped his groin it was one quick action that caught him off gaurd .

he underestimated what i was going to do since i told him i had no ground game

would it work twice probably not , but in a street mind set it only has to work the first time

since i have no real ground skills all i can do is cheat . but i want to get very good at cheating . this requires me to develop some ground skills :D

[FooFighter]

Victor,

I didnt start any nonsense and I was trying to have a civil discussion about your views on the martial arts and you have made huge grand claims about catch wrestling and its effectiveness in additon your wing chun training. I merely asked if you have any real perceptual knowledge to support your theories? All your replies to me have been smoke and mirrors and down right disrepectful.

I didnt ask you to challenge Renzo Gracie himself but suggested that you go test your grappling skills against grapplers, Renzo's students? Who are better to test your grappling skills against than these men in your area? Grappling in these schools aint really fighting, Victor. If you can control and submit these BBJ grapplers, than you are the real deal and much you have spoken about would make more sense and would lessen the doubts in these idle internet dissusions. Does this make any sense to you Victor, or I am being a punk?

Victor, this is a martial art forum where opinions, facts, and theories are exchanged, questioned and challenged. If my questions makes you feel uneasy, then I am sorry that you feel that way. But this is the place, where theories meet other different theories, OK?

What can of worms did I open, Victor? Who is complaining? Tell me what did I say that was false in my last messages to you? You have not given any objective, respectful, mature, reasonable arguments. You have not directly answered any questions and there were holes in your answers. I didnt bring in Renzo Gracie, you did, I didnt bring up Mazza, you did, and indirectly you have brought in your sifu Cheung by stating that his anti grappling techniques worked against Gracie's students attempts to take down Mr. Mazza. I have ulmost respect for these men and never spoken ill of any of them. As for you, the rummors about you are indeed on point. You on the other hand are as unreasonable as those you think are illogical and ignorant.

"who the f#ck are you to tell me that I'm on trial as a catch wrestler?" Who are you to judge other fighter's abilities and styles? If you have the self respect to think and make comments/opinions about others martial artists, then we all should have that same right to think critically and communicate freely. Are you beyond reproach? Again you have opened your cans of worms and I merely questioning the water you have asked people to drink and as a reasonable person I drank and question its source. Unless you have some real hard experience in your Catch wrestling, then most of what you speak about is merely conjecture.

Who's trial? No one, this isnt as dramatic as you are making it, Victor. Dont act as victim and start be accountable and reasonable. You have in past put modified wing chun on trial, you have place BBJ on trial, and you have even place other well established martial artists on trial. If this is true, then you should taste the same gall as you gave others.

"If you've got a problem with me - come and see me. Send me a pm." Is this how you handle yourself? I would love to yum cha with you, but I only yum cha with real respectful martial artists and not insecure, angst ,immature, men who dont know how to reason intelligently and respectfully. Victor, the only problem is you are an unrealized martial artists looking for a security blanket. I have no problems with you, sir. You are my senior in gung fu, right? I am no body special. I just pity that men like you exist and are teaching people gung fu. In the future, when your back is completely better, dont PM me.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Foofighter:

Okay...so you've made an attempt to post something that at least "seems" logical and non-troll like in appearance - but it's your post (and your assumptions behind it) that are full of holes...I don't know who you are but you have obviously been reading many of my posts...quite a few...and talk as if you know me.

This being the case - then I must assume that you read what I once said about "not rolling" just for the sake of rolling - in terms of grappling - that I combine Wing Chun with Catch Wrestling as one unit - that in my school they may be separated for drills and learning purposes and then combined during sparring - but if I work out with someonewho is not already a student or a friend - then I combine the two into one whole unit (for obvious reasons...and which is the whole purpose of combining the two arts anyway: MMA) - and the only time I made an exception was once when visiting Keith's school and he invited that guy with all the jiu jitsu experience and it began with him trying to rush for a takedown and I used strikes (one of which found his eye)...after that I unilaterally decided it would just be grappling vs. grappling - and I know you know what I'm talking about since that's the only time I've ever posted that my back was bothering me - which you keep alluding to...and which, by the way, is no longer a problem - my back is completely back to normal.

Next...It was YOU who first brought Renzo Gracie's name into this - wanting to know if I was "crazy enough" (your words) to go to his school and test Catch vs. BJJ !!! And in your latest post you say I should do that and just go there to "roll"...If you've been following my posts carefully (and you obviously have)...then you know I'm someone who is only concerned with the non-rules of the STREET...I don't train my myself or my students "tournament style"...and as much as I respect the guts, skills, and training regiments of folks who fight in the UFC, Pride, etc...there are still rules and conditions there that I don't adhere to - for my own reasons.

For example, like Ernie, if someone managed to pull me deep into his guard I might bite him...I might stick my fingers in his eye...I might attack the groin when punches are coming down on me from the full mount...to name a few examples...which by the way - is EXACTLY what real, historical "hooking" within Catch-as-Catch-Can Wrestling is all about...it's a brutal martial art that uses strikes, elbows, knees, bites, eye-gouges, fish-hooks in the mouth, in the ear, etc...along with wrestling principles and techniques.

Yes...you are entitled to your opinions...but when you start telling me to go and basically challange (no matter how you word it) in other people's schools - and then start laying out ground-rules that I should adhere to when I'm there...because YOU want to put my wrestling skills on trial...then you deserve a "who the f#ck are you answer"...

And speaking of you - you said that I'm your senior in kung fu - that again suggests that you know me...do you mind telling me who you are?

One last thing - I mentioned that Keith couldn't be taken down by the guy who came to his school - and you think you see contradictions between that and my advocating learning how to fight on the ground - I also once said (in a post on this forum) that if I ever had to fight Keith for real and I couldn't find an immediate disabling way to strike/kick him - that I would try to take him down...that his 237 lbs. would be less effective at striking me when he's on the floor...

I don't see contradictions here - almost anybody can be taken down (or made to go to the ground) if your skills are good enough - and even though I just started a thread entitled UP ON YOUR OWN TWO FEET - about training against takedowns and training to get back up once on the floor...the fact still remains - as I've been saying all along - it's not wise to put all one's eggs in the standup striking and kicking basket...because anybody might someday find themselves on the floor.

So again - who are you?

[FooFighter]

Victor,

Thank you for keeping things civil. You have given a reasonable answer and if you're "experience" in the martial arts lead you to your conclusion and it works for you, then it is valid and who I am to say otherwise. I do believe in a pluralistic univere and with the vast experience of people, things may be true due to its contents.

You have remember something Victor that are tõo many intellectualists in the martial world and here on these forums. Most are great theorists and most arent professional and well established martial artists or for that matter fighters. I take everything with a grain of salt.

Who am I? I am no one special, Victor. I can say that I am a student in Modified Wing Chun and do to personal reasons I could not continue. However, I have been training on my own and have learned some BJJ from friends who studied at REnzo Academy and Machado Academy in NYC. I have even met some real MMA fighters and seen how they train. SO, you in deed by tradition are my senior. I am sorry I was made disrespectful comments to you but I totally reacted to your comments too emotionally.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Foofighter:

All's well that ends well...

And good luck with your training.

-Victor

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thought I'd top off this thread with a post as to why I think that Catch-As-Catch-Can Wrestling - far from being an inferior grappling supplement to Wing Chun - is in fact a perfect grappling complement to Wing Chun.


The very fact that Catch emphasizes Control and Submission... as opposed to always having to be in one of several specific positions - and almost always that position having to be on the ground...in other words - it's always a (specific) Position and Submission philosophy...

The fact that Catch DOESN'T do this - is the very reason why Catch is such a perfect partner for Wing Chun...the very reason why it's so compatible - although there are other reasons as well.

Catch Wrestling's emphasis on Control and Submission means that a submission (or a brutal lock or move that rips, tears, breaks, or otherwise seriously injures the opponent)...can be had from a standing posotion of CONTROL...a kneeling position of CONTROL, and a "position" on the ground.

In other words - the Catch idea is to use your whole body as a weapon - and his whole body as a target....so you don't have to be in a "specific" position - much less a "specific" ground position, for the moves to work.

As long as you have CONTROL over your opponent's body...enough control to deliver the final move successfully.

That's all that matters.

So for instance...in Wing Chun...Do I need to have a person locked up on the ground before I could (should) perform a lop da (grab and pull one of his arms while punching him with my other hand)???

Of course not...As long as I have enough control over his body, his space, etc. to deliver the grab and strike without the danger of him counter-striking, counter-grabbing, etc. -

that's all I need.

The same with grappling.

[Ernie]

victor
have you ever researched dumog

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

No I haven't...tell me about it.

[Ernie]

it's the filipino version of controlling the body through choke and joint points with breaking , moving ,throwing , locking

from the standing , kneeling , or on the ground

done with or with out weapons

the ground is not as detailed as bjj or probably catch
but it was designed with the intent of quick braks and multiple opponents with weapons

very balistic

i like how they train it they have many '' chi sau type' drills were you fight for position of the clinch to the ground


i have some stuff on video if i can dig it up i'll send it your way


reason i bring it up is i have found many similarites in its application with body to body and take downs in wing chun
it's very good on the knee positions as well
quick breaks and still aware of mulitple attack


maybe we can trade some catch stuff for some dumog :D

[Knifefighter]

UWC:
How many actual hands-on, in-person lessons have you had from catch wrestling instructors?

[Gangsterfist]

Ernie,

Sounds like some interesting stuff. I am interested in learning about this dumog system.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale Frank (alias knifefigher)...

Now listen carefully - instead of constantly asking me for my credentials - just answer THE POINTS RAISED IN MY POST...

And if you have no answer (ie.- the points I make are valid) - and you can't refute them point-for-point...

then don't try to waste my time.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:
Very interesting stuff (dumog)...especially liked what you said about how they do some "chi sao type stuff" going from the clinch to the ground.

Would love to trade some videos with you.

Send me a pm and we'll discuss it further.

Regards,

-Victor

[Ernie]

http://www.maphilindo.com/dumog.html
http://www.geocities.com/global_training_report/dumog.htm
http://www.geocities.com/jkdinstructor/dumog.html#dumog

some links i found on google

but you really need to see it trained to get it

[KenWingJitsu]

By the way, pimpdaddy (that would be me) has tapes on both catch and dumog :D

Victor, your description of control isn't exclusive to catch. Depending on who is training in grappling, as long as they incorporate strikes as well, thenit's ALWAYS about control form any "position". This goes for BJJ, Judo, & Sambo. In the end when they train with strikes, they all control the same way more or less - with the goal of not being hit, while they can choose to hit or submit.

[Ernie]

pimp daddy were the hoes at :)


i emailed you about training

victor i might be able to compress the video and put it on my server . do you know how to connect over ftp

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dhira:

I'm not saying that all grappling systems other than Catch don't go for "control" from any position - with or without incorporating striking into the mix.

My point was - that as far as submissions are concerned - the fact that Catch will go for submissions from virtually limitless different positions - as long as there is control over the opponent's body...

this fact makes it a perfect match for Wing Chun.

There are other grappling systems that won't go (or almost never go) for submissions unless there is a SPECIFIC position achieved first...and almost always that specific position is on the ground.

This is very limiting, in my view....which can result in many lost opportunities to end the fight as quickly as possible.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

No...I don't know how to do that.

But I could make you a video copy of some of my tapes - and mail it to you...Perhaps you could do the same?

[Ernie]

victor

i have every thing converted to vcd , can you watch that format ?
i have my friggen hundreds of vhs tapes in storage . let me look though my collection i think i have vunak and inasanto doing dumog stuff

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
then don't try to waste my time. Victor:
I believe it is you who are wasting everyone's time attempting to pass yourself off as a grappling/catch expert, when, in fact, you have very limited instruction in this area.

As far as your points:

1- BJJ emphasizes position that allow you to strike with maximum efficiency. This is the number one goal in BJJ strategy. This means that you will learn how to obtain ground positions that allow you to maximize the strikes you have learned in a striking-based system.

2- While BJJ works toward obtaining superior position, this is not dogmatic. Strikes and submissions can be also be done from inferior or equal positions. Understanding positioning and control (as opposed to just the control of a limb) is vital in order to know when to go for submissions when out of position. A person who doesn’t understand positioning and control and just races around trying to get submissions will quickly find himself in big trouble against an experienced grappler.

3- While there are several BJJ finishes that can be done while standing (standing mate leon, guillotine, ten finger guillotine, standing foot locks) BJJ practitioners emphasize the ground because most submission/breaks have to be finished on the ground against a skilled opponent. Otherwise he has too much room to maneuver, has many more options in terms of countering you. Additionally, it is easier to control someone on the ground, as well as to isolate the area that is being attacked.

4- Since BJJ focuses on the ground it is the ideal supplement to a standup system where you have already learned what you need to do in stand up fighting.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale:

Well you're getting better - because at least 90% of your response was grappling points - and only 10% vintage knifefighter "let me attack the messenger because I don't like the message" talk...

So now I guess I won't even have to consider talking about whether or not I am a current member of Tony Cecchine's I.C.W.A. (International Catch Wrestling Association); or whether or not I hold a rank in that Association; or whether or not I have a certificate from Tony Cecchine proving that I hold a rank; or whether or not I first started learning Catch in 1963; or whether or not I actually met and got some pointers in Catch from Antonino (Argentina) Rocca back in 1965 - (although he was by no means in the league of people like Thesz or Gotch)...

No...I think I'll skip all of that credential stuff and just talk about grappling - thank you very much.

Now as regards your remarks...I was talking about the use of holds, controls, and submissions that can be used from a standing position...or possibly start from a standing position and then move to a kneeling position...or a hold that is then taken to the ground via a sit-down...or a throw...or a leg sweep...

and while it is true that you can have more total control over someone's body when you have them locked in on the ground; nonetheless there are a number of finishing moves that can come while the wrestler is still very much on his feet...you spoke of the guillotine...the Catch version is the figure 4 face lock or the figure 4 choke...I've seen (and done) standing double-wristlocks that can be turned into a hip throw...(once tore up someone's rotator cuff with this move)...The Catch dive takedown that I once described on a different thread can allow the wrestler to put someone on their back and finish with foot/leg locks while standing (never even hitting a knee in fact)...a double-leg dive takedown can result in turning the man over on his stomach and finish with a Boston crab...without ever hitting a knee...or ...if you choose to go down at that point into a step-over toehold with a cross-face (or any number of other cranks and locks) you can really do some damage...the step-over into a crab or a step-over toehold with cross faces and the like are also what I (and you) alluded to once before as a way to defeat the guard. And there are some other standing armlocks that will work well also...

In Catch there is no such thing as "fishing" for submissions without the proper control...and if a submission is not working you are taught to immediately abandon it and start working for something else...be it a strike...or another controlling position...or a different submission...

Now as regards striking - I favor Catch as a mix with Wing Chun because the close Wing Chun striking infight is very conducive to some of the things I just mentioned from the feet...just one decent short range punch that lands could buy you enough time to pull out a dive takedown or a wristlock...just one short-range kick or knee shot could immediately open him up for some sort of a nelson move leading to a submission or all sorts of other combinations of strikes/takedowns/sweeps/throws/locks that may or may not go to the floor...

And once on the floor - the fact that so many different submissions that are used in Catch are available - which can come from out of nowhere...and from various different controlling "positions"...the head and arm position - for example...or the cross body position (numerous neck cranks, chokes,wristlocks, armbars - all of these things just increase possibilities of winning the fight many times over...

and the Wing Chun approach to fighting is a very similar mindset - there are numerous short range striking and trapping moves that just flow out of seemingly "nowhere"...because no set position is required - as long as you have some sort of control over the opponent's body...strikes...like catch submissions...seem limitless...

The two arts can really go together well.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
So now I guess I won't even have to consider talking about whether or not I am a current member of Tony Cecchine's I.C.W.A. (International Catch Wrestling Association); or whether or not I hold a rank in that Association; or whether or not I have a certificate from Tony Cecchine proving that I hold a rank; or whether or not I first started learning Catch in 1963; or whether or not I actually met and got some pointers in Catch from Antonino (Argentina) Rocca back in 1965 - (although he was by no means in the league of people like Thesz or Gotch).. Being a member of an association or holding a "rank' in that organization hardly qualifies you as an expert in catch. Neither does picking up a few pointers from Rocca.

There are thousands of BJJ association members who are ranked white or bue belts, but are hardly experts in the system. Many have also received "pointers" from Royce, Rickson, Rolyer, or Relson. Doesn't give them expertise, though.

The fact that you avoid how much hands-on, in-person teaching you have had from catch instructors speaks volumes about your actual level as a grappler. As does the fact that you don't ever test your grappling skills at other grappling schools or open mat sessions.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale Franks (alias knifefighter):


You are forever the troll...seeking a "controlling position" that I will never give you...wherein you will cross-examine me on the witness stand - you being the special prosecutor - and me being guilty until proven innocent.

And you do this to everybody....I've read many of your posts on the Wing Chun forum...and other forums available at this website...I've read the trolling you do with the guy who goes under the name of Sifu Abel, for example...But there are so many examples...with so many different people - and it's always the same pattern...if ANYONE disagrees with you - you attack their credentials...their knowledge, their fighting skills, their experience...QUITE OFTEN because you have NO ANSWER to the points they raise - my latest post here being yet another prime example...now you're back to 100% "attack the messenger because you have no answer to rebutt the message"...You, who is GUILTY of the very things you always accuse others of doing...it's as if you're actually looking in the mirror sometimes while writing these attack posts - but you just simply change the name of the person to be attacked from Dale Franks (the guy in the mirror) to whoever is the intended target of the day....You, who told us that you had 5-6-7 years of Wing Chun ...but after reading your posts about Wing Chun it seems as though they were written by someone with more like 5-6-7 MONTHS of Wing chun - you really hardly know anything about the inner workings of Wing Chun....you, who once told me on a post that I must be talking about Frank Gotch as the "Gotch" who wrestled Lou Thesz back in the 1960's (not Karl Gotch)...and after I informed you that Frank Gotch was long gone from the scene by then - that in fact he was no longer around by the time Thesz first started his career in 1936 - and that in fact it was Karl Gotch....you then posted about a month later that you personally knew someone who had trained for awhile with Karl Gotch down in Florida...What was this? You read on some website that Gotch lived in Florida and came up with this tale?....You who wanted to post anonymously until Sifu Abel outed you?...You who constantly attacks other's people's fighting knowledge and ability but refuses to post a video in your possession of one of your fights?....You, who is ALWAYS...ALWAYS...ALWAYS...trolling. Yeah...How's that "Dim Mak" thread workin' out for ya? That was a real sincere inquiry now - wasn't it?

Enough of you, man....You may be good...you may be very good at what you do - but you're a big waste of time.

And if you can't (won't) talk about grappling/wing chun/fighting...whatever...like a human being - I'm just going to have ignore you.

I've got better things to do.

[FooFighter]

KnifeFighter:

You have valid points and I too agree with your point of view about Victor Parlati not being an expert of Catch or an authority of this subject. I too have expressed my doubts and my reason why I think he is no expert in Catch due my own personal experience with him in the past and his students. I believe much what he is speaking about has come from personal research and not professional training or instruction. However, even though he lack experience and professional training. You must look at his Catch arguments on an intellectual level and argue from there and not attack his lack of experience. Even tho Parlati may be an a hole, we must be intellectually objective and look if he has any valid theoretical points? If people who lack experience (like some college professors), that doesnt mean their theories are wrong and sometime they do have some valid truths in their arguments. We should all respect each other and we look at the arguments without getting too personal. KF, I personally dont like Parlati but I have read most of his arguments some of it is reasonable.

Mr. Parlati, it is just funny to see how you interact with people and how you expressed yourself with such as an open mind. It is humorous how you have asked people not to attack the messager and look at the message when you done the same. My dear Victor, since you have set yourself up as an EXPERT here on the forum, you must be willing to face the questions about your background. Good Luck. An EXPERT has two things to confirm his knowledge is a healthy balance of (experience) and (theory). Lets hope your theories are corrects. Good luck.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Tran:

I have posted several times before that I have a total of about seven years hands-on regular basis experience with Catch Wrestling - which does not make me an expert...But I started back in 1963 - which means that I have had about 40 years to think about wrestling/grappling/fighting...observe it, discuss it, analyze it, etc.

It's still very much a work in progress for me - in terms of "doing" it.

But I "understand" the concepts and principles behind grappling and submissions.

[Knifefighter]

Actually, in this case (same with Abel), my issue is with the messenger as much as it is the message. If you (or even your students) were out there testing yourself against other grapplers and fighters, I would hold your arguments in much higher esteem. The problem I have with people like you is that you pontificate and bluster, but have very little real experience in the things about which you are sermonizing. You sit in your studio pretending to be a bad ass, but are afraid to actually step up. There are real "catch" wrestlers out there, but you are not one of them.

Get out there, train and compete with other grapplers, and your arguments will be ones that hold much more validity (they will also be different than the ones you are now preaching).

You obviously have very little hands-on instruction in workable grappling. You are still working through concepts that beginning submission grapplers struggle with during their first year or so. You sit in your studio trying out techniques that you have seen on videos on students who are even less knowledgeable of grappling than you are. Enter yourself into Grappler's Quest and you will see how full of BS you actually are.

[FooFighter]

Victor:

This probably the most humble and non egostical and polite reply I ever recieved from you. Granted, you are working things out with what you have in your mind, but you indirectly set out big claims and the only things which I have pointed out is your experience which many here who are familar, studied grappling hands on, will see through your arguments and comments. While on intellectual level some of your ideas will work against a novice or less familar martial artist. I wish you the best of luck and I still hold as one as my sifu. There is a saying, "if you learn from a teacher for a day, he is a father for life."

[Gangsterfist]

Knifefighter,

I have no affinty to Ultimatewingchun. I do not know him personally nor have I ever trained with him. I have been following this thread as a disconnected third party. I am in no way an expert on catch wrestling, BJJ, or any grappling art. I have read your posts along with Victor's and FooFighter's. You talk big as well my friend. I remember you saying you have 7+ years of wing chun experience and you were talking big. You have also claimed to have over 400 ring fights? Or was it tournament fights? Or was it all just BS? I also do not know you, but your claims seem just as insignificant and meaningless as you claim victor's to be. Your claims and posts versus what you say your wing chun training is makes me very apprehensive to believe anything you have to say.

I am not taking victor's side nor am I taking your side. I am stating some observations about this thread that will hopefully just end this meaningless pizzing contest you guys have going.

Does catch wrestling work?
yes

Does BJJ work?
yes

Would they both work with wing chun?
yes

Which is better?
neither

The question is, which one works better for you?

To come out and call catch or bjj inferior or superior is ignorant IMO. Anyone who has to come out and try to sell their skills and their art by using terms like 400+ street fights, dim mak master, Some esoteric grand masters only student, I'll fight you anytime anywhere attitude is not appealing to me. I chose to train with a lineage that does not advertise or promise any kind of secret, higher skilled, or otherwise techniques. Victor will make a point you disagree with, and you demand combat tested results KF, which I totally agree with you. Combat tested results are great, and also can really prove how effective something is. However, it really ultimately does not prove anything in the end. Also, your combat tested results and claims of personal experience seem a bit ridiculous as well. You claim to have years of bjj, years of wing chun and over 400+ matches under your belt? Were those full contact matches or point mathces? Point matches really don't mean d1ck compared to real fighting. I think someone of that experience could probably come up with a lot better stuff to say.

So, if this thread is going to keep on trucking try discussing the differences between catch and bjj and why each difference would be advantageous or not. I am sure in certain aspects each art may have better answers than the other, and vice versa.

In KF's defense, victor you do come off as being arrogant. I mean whats up wtih the ALL CAPS talk? Are you yelling at us? Also, if you are going to make a point, and i think you make good points, make it based of experience and less of personal attacks towards KF. Obviously you both don't really like each other, but we are all adults here aren't we?

*disclaimer* - Don't take offense to any of this. I am just some entity you only know via internet message forum. I am not trying to personally attack anyone. I am just stating some observations I have made reading this thread. For all I know I could be totally wrong.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Franks:

You just posted that I "have obviously have very little hands-on instruction in workable grappling. I am still working through concepts that beginning submission grapplers struggle with during their first year or so..."

How could you possibly know that?

What's "obvious" is that you can't rebutt anything in the latest post I made regarding Catch and Wing Chun....That's what's obvious...and so once again you are resorting to accusations and put-downs based upon nothing that you can possibly know or verify...

And Tran himself had to admit that he never attended any of my wrestling classes but that he heard from those who did that wrestling was going on (and that was 3 years ago)...he says he didn't hear the word Catch...well - so what? That doesn't disprove anything.

If what I've said about Catch is inaccurate - and therefore worthy of the "you're just a beginner label"...then point out what it is.

If not - then you're just talking in circles.

[FooFighter]

GangsterFist,

Much of what you wrote is true and what I have tried to explain myself. Thanks for pointing out a middle point of view. Victor, at the same I mentioned and introduced to you the Pride fight have seen three years ago. I also was aware of Matt Furey, Mr. Catch wrestler himself, and even brought some his products. I even sold some of his videos to another members here about three years ago in the past. The funny part is that during at that time period, I think I was more aware of MMA fights overseas than most the students there at that time and this dangerous method of grappling called catch. The UFCs during those years sucked when compared to Pride fights. So I didnt focus my attention there and started watching Pride fights and started investigating the Japanese fight methods that killed three Gracies at the time.
When I mentioned Pride Fights, no one at the school including you mentioned Catch when we were discussing MMA. It is true that I never was invited to your advance classes and it has been a long time since then. Who knows how much your fighting ability and the old students I knew improved? I sure hope it has gotten better. Again, best of luck.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

I really don't know if I can open a vcd format or not. - I'll try it if you send it...but a vhs video swap would probably be the best way.

[anerlich]

FooFighter:


Granted, you are working things out with what you have in your mind, but you indirectly set out big claims and the only things which I have pointed out is your experience which many here who are familar, studied grappling hands on, will see through your arguments and comments.

Look, you basically proved on the TWC thread that you know sweet FA about grappling styles, especially BJJ, and more or less admitted it. It's a bit rich you lecturing Victor on such subjects now, from such a demonstrable base of ignorance. Take your own advice when you tell others not to put forth on subjects on which they are ignorant.


I think I was more aware of MMA fights overseas than most the students there at that time and this dangerous method of grappling called catch. The UFCs during those years sucked when compared to Pride fights. So I didnt focus my attention there and started watching Pride fights and started investigating the Japanese fight methods that killed three Gracies at the time.

But then elsewhere you said that Catch sucked compared to BJJ because catch wrestlers do not compete against all styles like BJJers do. Since you are now hypocritcally saying the opposite, I can only assume you are still trying to play silly games with Victor.

GET OVER IT!

Sakuraba has actually beaten four Gracies, but I'm not sure what he does is straight Catch.

If you've been investigating Catch for years like you say, my only observation is that your research skills are abysmal.


I also was aware of Matt Furey, Mr. Catch wrestler himself, and even brought some his products.

Tony Cecchine is Mr Catch. Matt Furey is an agressive self promoter and marketeer of overpriced training books and tapes, who has consistently failed to back up his self-claimed expertise by competing in legit international grappling events, despite having said he would on several occasions. Maybe he IS good, but no one will ever know.

I can't really see the point of this thread ... it's KF goading Victor and Victor fighting back basically, and FooFighter trying to get that chip off his shoulder. Nothing will be achieved.

[Ernie]

victor ,
if you have a dvd player check if it does vcd , if not i can just put it on a disc for your computer , i don't even have a vhs player anymore to be honest , :)

but pm me your add and i will send you a few disc no big deal

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
I remember you saying you have 7+ years of wing chun experience and you were talking big. You have also claimed to have over 400 ring fights?
These are the things I mentioned that I have under my belt:

6-7 years WC. At the time I also was training boxing; kickboxing, and stickfighting.

200+ competitive matches. These include freestyle/folkstyle wrestling; Golden Gloves boxing; Muay Thai style fighting in Japan; full contact American rules kickboxing; open submission grappling tourneys; BJJ tourneys; Dog Bros NHB stickfighting; MMA/pancration matches.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
You just posted that I "have obviously have very little hands-on instruction in workable grappling. I am still working through concepts that beginning submission grapplers struggle with during their first year or so..."

How could you possibly know that?

By your posts. You are still working through things like trying to do the Kimura or get groins shots with elbows while mounted. These are some of the things that almost all beginning grapplers try to do before they get a good solid understanding of ground work.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Franks:

I told you (voluntarily)...without being asked...some months ago - long after the subject came up and was already finished - that when working with a new student who has some very good BJJ skills...I found that the the double-wristlock, while being mounted, is probably not going to work - a trial and error approach that I experimented with and decided that it's too low percentage a move to use - even though in Catch the shoulder is not raised off the floor when doing for the lock - so the back is not exposed...nonetheless, the attempt at this lock can probably be countered.

As for the downward elbow shot to the groin while being mounted...now that's where your lack of Wing Chun knowledge and skill really begins to show up...because I posted a detailed explanation of this move - and why it is a much more high percentage move - while always acknowledging that being caught in the mount is usually a losing proposition...but that nonetheless, this can be used with success against a number of different types of punching attacks, in conjunction with bridging the hips to buck him off balance, and with certain wing chun hand techniques preceding the elbow strike...I posted these details twice - in fact.

I won't post them a third time - the move obviously either went over your head or you purposely choose to let it be misunderstood...either way...I won't waste my time with your cross-examinations about it any further.

BUT WHAT'S MOST INTERESTING OF ALL...yes, Gangsterfist...I'm using caps - because this needs to be said in a raised voice...

Most interesting of all, Dale Franks, is that this latest post of yours, which I'm now presently responding to, completely bypasses (once again) all the points I've raised about Catch and Wing Chun on my most RECENT posts....

Points which you can't refute.

Instead - you want to return to dead issues - (really just one issue - the doublewristlock against the mount)...dead issues that constitute about 1% of everything I've ever posted about grappling - as a means of CHANGING THE SUBJECT.

And again the tactic is to try and attack someone else's credentials...

Why not just refute what I posted...instead???

Is there a problem with that?

The post I made that spoke of nelsons, and step-over toeholds with a crossface, and that Catch does emphasize controlling the opponent's body so that "fishing" for submissions in a futile manner doesn't occur, etc. etc.

You know...that post.

Talk about it.

If you can.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

Putting it on a disk for the computer would definitely work for me.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
I told you (voluntarily)...without being asked...some months ago - long after the subject came up and was already finished - that when working with a new student who has some very good BJJ skills...I found that the the double-wristlock, while being mounted, is probably not going to work - a trial and error approach that I experimented with and decided that it's too low percentage a move to use My point exactly. Most beginning level submission grapplers work that very move (as well as things like figure 4 holds inside the guard, holding the opponent's head while on the bottom, crossing the ankles after taking the back, and throwing on headlocks while standing) in a trial and error fashion during the first year or so of grappling.



Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
The post I made that spoke of nelsons, and step-over toeholds with a crossface, and that Catch does emphasize controlling the opponent's body so that "fishing" for submissions in a futile manner doesn't occur, etc. etc.

You know...that post. I'm not exaclty sure what you want me to discuss, but I'll give it a try.

1/2 and 1/4 nelsons are fine, used in freestyle and folkstyle wrestling all the time. Full neslon is much harder to get and is very rare. Can be used as a finisher if you are significantly bigger and stronger than your opponent. That's one problem with catch. Many moves require physical superiority over an opponent.

Step over toe hold with a crossface. Now that's one I'd love to see done on a halfway skilled grappler who is resisting. This is one of the other problems with catch- its carney and pro wrestling history. Too many BS moves thrown in that come from worked matches or used only against unskilled opponents.

As far as catch emphasizing control, I'm open to an explanation of that. What are the controlling positions in catch? What are you trying to control? How is the control achieved? What is the ultimate goal of that control? Do you give up the control as you transition to a submission? If not, how do you keep that from occuring? If so, how would you decide when to trade control for submission attempt?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by anerlich
Tony Cecchine is Mr Catch. Matt Furey is an agressive self promoter and marketeer of overpriced training books and tapes, who has consistently failed to back up his self-claimed expertise by competing in legit international grappling events, despite having said he would on several occasions. Maybe he IS good, but no one will ever know.I'm not a big fan of Matt's, but if you are making jugdements based on grappling competitions, Matt ends up being more of an "expert" than Tony. To my knowledge there is no record of Tony ever competing in any open grappling tourney. Matt, on the other hand, actually has a verfiable NCAA wrestling record (I believe he may have even won a Division 3 championship one year) and also won the world Shao Sheou (sp?) championships in China.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
As for the downward elbow shot to the groin while being mounted...now that's where your lack of Wing Chun knowledge and skill really begins to show up...because I posted a detailed explanation of this move - and why it is a much more high percentage move - while always acknowledging that being caught in the mount is usually a losing proposition...but that nonetheless, this can be used with success against a number of different types of punching attacks, in conjunction with bridging the hips to buck him off balance, and with certain wing chun hand techniques preceding the elbow strike...I posted these details twice - in fact. Actually, rather than pointing out any deficiencies in my understanding of WC, what your explanation did do was to once again display your lack of understanding of the ground game.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale Franks: You said...

"Step over toe hold with a crossface. Now that's one I'd love to see done on a halfway skilled grappler who is resisting. This is one of the other problems with catch- its carney and pro wrestling history. Too many BS moves thrown in that come from worked matches or used only against unskilled opponents."

With these three sentences you clearly demonstrate the fact that you know very little about Catch - if anything; and that you have NEVER faced a quality Catch wrestler - like Cecchine, or any of his top students...You put someone like this in your guard...they WILL turn you over...and then you will be subjected and victimized by the above moves.

You also wrote...

"As far as catch emphasizing control, I'm open to an explanation of that. What are the controlling positions in catch? What are you trying to control? How is the control achieved? What is the ultimate goal of that control? Do you give up the control as you transition to a submission? If not, how do you keep that from occuring? If so, how would you decide when to trade control for submission attempt?

Again...the Catch explanations to these questions are so basic that you demonstrate tthat you know next to nothing about Catch Wrestling - and have never faced a GOOD Catch wrestler. For example - I mentioned the head and arm position in that post...that's a control position...Which you obviously don't know anything about.

You need to meet Cecchine, or at least check out some of his tapes - because you really don't know what you're talking about.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
With these three sentences you clearly demonstrate the fact that you know very little about Catch - if anything; and that you have NEVER faced a quality Catch wrestler - like Cecchine, or any of his top students...You put someone like this in your guard...they WILL turn you over...and then you will be subjected and victimized by the above moves. Really now? Where are all these guys and why aren't they using this move in any submission grappling tournaments where the guard is used all over the place? Why is there not one verifiable instance of this move being used in any open grappling tourney anywhere?


Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
For example - I mentioned the head and arm position in that post...that's a control position...Which you obviously don't know anything about. Head and arm- fine position. Most BJJ pratitioners use it with an underhook on the other side as a transition to side control. OK, so that's one of the control positions you are striving to obtain. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe later we can discuss the pluses, minuses and variations of that position.

Now, how about all the other positions you are looking for? What are they? What specific things are you trying to control in each? How are you transitioning from one to the other? Does catch have positions it considers to be better than others? Do you have "multiple threat" postions? If so what are they and what are the attacks being considered.

[Nick Forrer]

'That's one problem with catch. Many moves require physical superiority over an opponent.'

This may be pointing out the obvious- but - if you're opponent is larger and stronger than you a lot of moves will be more difficult- for example a standing guillotine- when Sak put this on Silva he just picked him up and slammed him. Another would be a triangle from the guard- someone big could pick you up and slam you- not so bad on a mat but much worse on concrete. So in fact in many instances it is probably to your advantage to be bigger and stronger than your opponent when applying a submission.

In fact I have a number of doubts about the efficacy of the guard in a 'real' fight. For example - the open guard. someone with shoes on/heavy boots could just soccer kick your legs in to oblivion. Moreover the groin is heavily exposed- especially in the spider guard- whats to stop someone from just knee dropping on to your crown jewels?

Another point- the difference between catch and bjj seems to be that bjj advocates position before submission whereas catch doesn't. In Saks video he shows three subs from 'inferior' positions- a rolling kimura from when they have your back, a rolling kneebar from the turtle, and an armbar from underneath the side mount- am i right in saying that a bjj guy would never consider executing these moves as it would contradict their 'position before submission' philosophy (in the way that a WC player wouldn't take a round line when a straight line is available)?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
This may be pointing out the obvious- but - if you're opponent is larger and stronger than you a lot of moves will be more difficult- for example a standing guillotine- when Sak put this on Silva he just picked him up and slammed him. Another would be a triangle from the guard- someone big could pick you up and slam you- not so bad on a mat but much worse on concrete.


Another point- the difference between catch and bjj seems to be that bjj advocates position before submission whereas catch doesn't. In Saks video he shows three subs from 'inferior' positions- a rolling kimura from when they have your back, a rolling kneebar from the turtle, and an armbar from underneath the side mount- am i right in saying that a bjj guy would never consider executing these moves as it would contradict their 'position before submission' philosophy (in the way that a WC player wouldn't take a round line when a straight line is available)? Size and strength make less of a difference on the ground, as well as the type of submission being applied. The guillotine is more effective if you bring it down into the guard. A straight arm bar takes less strength to apply than a head and arm choke.


Originally posted by Nick Forrer
In fact I have a number of doubts about the efficacy of the guard in a 'real' fight. For example - the open guard. someone with shoes on/heavy boots could just soccer kick your legs in to oblivion. Moreover the groin is heavily exposed- especially in the spider guard- whats to stop someone from just knee dropping on to your crown jewels? And what's the alternative if you end up in a downed position or on the bottom. Turn to your hands and knees so you can get booted in the head? Give up side control or the mount so you can get hit/kneed directly to the face without having to bypass your legs first? Give up your back so you can get choked? At least with the guard, there are a wide variety of offensive weapons available to offset your opponent's offensive weapons.


Originally posted by Nick Forrer
Another point- the difference between catch and bjj seems to be that bjj advocates position before submission whereas catch doesn't. In Saks video he shows three subs from 'inferior' positions- a rolling kimura from when they have your back, a rolling kneebar from the turtle, and an armbar from underneath the side mount- am i right in saying that a bjj guy would never consider executing these moves as it would contradict their 'position before submission' philosophy (in the way that a WC player wouldn't take a round line when a straight line is available)? BJJ works towards improving position, but it is not dogmatic. While going for a submission from an inferior position carries a higher risk, it doesn't necessarily mean you wouldn't do it. BJJ players do subs from less than superior positions all the time- arm bars and leg locks from the 1/2 guard; arm locks and chokes from bottom side mount; leg locks from the bottom mounted position and a variety of others. However, as a BJJ practitioner, you are aware of the advantages and disadvantages of different positions and what the trade-off is for attempting a submission instead of improving your position.

On the street, it would be advisable that you be pretty sure you are going to land the submission, otherwise you will be much more vulnerable than if you had attempted it from a better position. For example, miss the rolling knee bar and your opponent will probably get at least one hook in; miss the armbar from the bottom and your opponent has his own arm bar or the mount.

Not to mention how much harder it is to hit a submission from an inferior position.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Franks:

Just read your post comparing Furey to Cecchine - and again you don't know what you're talking about....They were sort of hangin' out together at one time - (basically because Furey wanted to pick Tony's brains)..and now Furey has nothing but distain for Cecchine because Tony is so far beyond him...and is upset because Tony sees through his self-promoting over-the-top claims...Even Karl Gotch won't have anything to do with Furey anymore...As to Tony's background - go to his website and find out more about him....

www.catchwrestling.com

Tony Cecchine learned Catch for 5 years under a real Catch 'hooker' named Stanley Radwan...over 20 years ago...as well as learning some stuff directly from Lou Thesz in recent years (Thesz died in April, 2002)...Thesz also called Tony a 'hooker'...the highest props you can get in Catch Wrestling....VERY few people have ever been given that designation....Furey, on the other hand, didn't know hardly anything about Catch until meeting Tony and until he (Furey) spent one year (1999) studying under Karl Gotch down in Florida.

Here's what I'm going to do - as concerns your assertions that a step-over toehold with a crossface couldn't work against the guard in a real situation...as well as other similar moves (and submissions) that you consider to be phoney carnival-wrestler moves...

And here's what I'm going to do about how Catch goes about using controlling positions - how that transitions to multiple opportunities for multiple types of submissions - how controls are achieved - how they lead to all sorts of possibilities, including strikes, rips, fish hooks, elbows - how control is not given up when going for a submission - how the whole body is used for control, not just the limbs - how these things differ from BJJ and other grappling systems - and last but not least, why I think that Catch Wrestling is such a great martial art...

I'm willing to make ten tapes for ten different people...yes....I'll go buy ten blank vhs tapes, record about 2 hours of Tony Cecchine's stuff, incur the postage charge myself, and send them out, free of charge, to ten different people on this forum.

All I ask in return, is that those people come back on-line and post on this thread what they thought of the tapes - and how what they saw relates to this post and all related posts by myself and Dale Franks concerning the grappling principles and submissions we are presently discussing.

All you have to do is email me at: wingchun@usa.com

Give me a name and mailing address - and I will send it to you.

If they so desire, the following people will automatically be included on the list:

1) Ernie
2) Nick Ferrer
3) Andrew Nerlich
4) Dale Franks

That leaves six other people...The first six to email me will get the tape.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Just read your post comparing Furey to Cecchine - and again you don't know what you're talking about....Really? I don't know what I am talking about when I talk about competition? OK, prove me wrong. What is Tony's competition record? In which events did he compete? And are you saying Furey was not a collegiate wrestler and did not compete and win in China's World Sheo Sheau championships? Are you saying Tony has a verifiable competitive record while Matt does not?


Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Here's what I'm going to do - as concerns your assertions that a step-over toehold with a crossface couldn't work against the guard in a real situation...as well as other similar moves (and submissions) that you consider to be phoney carnival-wrestler moves...
Will this tape show Tony or one of his students sparring with a BJJ player from the guard and applying this hold while the BJJ person attempts to counter it?

If not, here's a better idea. Enter the next Grappler's Quest, or any other submission tourney in your area. Send us the video of you winning a match with this hold... you can even enter the novice division to do it.

If this tape is just showing moves against unresisting partners, it will be best given to people with actual submission backgrounds such as KWJ, Merryprankster, ST00. Lots of catch moves look great to the unitiated who don't have the experience to understand what is workable and what isn't.

BTW, if this is the tape of Tony doing the seminar where the fan keeps kicking in and out and John Saylor stops by at the break- already have it.

[Knifefighter]

BTW, I noticed you didn't answer my questions regarding the various aspects of control? It wouldn't be because you really don't know, would it?

[Nick Forrer]

Dale

'And what's the alternative if you end up in a downed position or on the bottom. Turn to your hands and knees so you can get booted in the head? Give up side control or the mount so you can get hit/kneed directly to the face without having to bypass your legs first? Give up your back so you can get choked? At least with the guard, there are a wide variety of offensive weapons available to offset your opponent's offensive weapons.'

okay...that much i realised. The way you are painting it is as a 'best of a bad scenario' which i have no problem with. However i understood - and i may be wrong about this - that some bjj players consider the guard to be a positive position rather than the best negative position i.e. they might be slightly more cavalier about allowing themselves to end up in that position rather than actively trying to stay on their feet/avoid being on the floor. In a lot of MMA fights, fighters seem to fall back into the guard purposefully and tactically to wear their opponent down knowing full well that the referee will stand them up at the end of the round. I'm not quite sure what my point is- maybe it has to do with translating the tactics of an MMA fight to a street fight verbatim.

Victor-

Ill take that action if its not too much trouble. I'll PM my address to you.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Franks:

Your reaction to my offer was very predictable; but rather than explain in detail (which I could do) on the internet what the answers are to your questions...which you would then (as always) either attempt to deny, bypass, or give false testimony about...(along with your usual "but prove to me what their credentials are" routine) - and then it all becomes the proverbial he said - she said business...

I've decided to go this route. Go to Tony's website and find out for yourself what his "fighting" background is all about.

And if you, KWJ, and Merryprankster want a video - just ask me.

And no....there is no John Saylor on anything I'm going to send.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
...but rather than explain in detail on the internet what the answers are to your questions.. I thought you wanted to have a dialogue on the the tactical aspects of catch and grappling. Guess not... that might expose the man behind the smoke curtain.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
okay...that much i realised. The way you are painting it is as a 'best of a bad scenario' which i have no problem with. However i understood - and i may be wrong about this - that some bjj players consider the guard to be a positive position rather than the best negative position i.e. they might be slightly more cavalier about allowing themselves to end up in that position rather than actively trying to stay on their feet/avoid being on the floor. In a lot of MMA fights, fighters seem to fall back into the guard purposefully and tactically to wear their opponent down knowing full well that the referee will stand them up at the end of the round. I'm not quite sure what my point is- maybe it has to do with translating the tactics of an MMA fight to a street fight verbatim.BJJ, as a system, strives for the top postitions of side mount, mount, knee ride, and back mount.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Franks:

You're slick...but you're not that slick.

Yes - we can continue this dialogue...but I want to give people some visuals to back up what I will eventually post on this thread in answer to all your questions.

[Nick Forrer]

Dale fair enough...but rereading this thread i see that you originally posted this

'There are literally hundreds of joint breaks, chokes, and sweeps in a variety of variations that have been developed in BJJ for use when on the bottom. The guard has become such a strong offensive weapon that some BJJ fighters even prefer to be in this position.'

Are these guys the exception? what do you think of this strategy in a real fight?......Heres one way to put it- assuming that the upa and the knee elbow escape were equally easy to pull off which one would you use if mounted? The upa to be on top or the knee elbow to be in the guard?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
Are these guys the exception? what do you think of this strategy in a real fight?...Depends, if you are standing, can't take the guy down and are getting punished while standing, you can pull the guy to guard and finish him from there. Gives you a better chance if you are outclassed while standing.


Originally posted by Nick Forrer
Heres one way to put it- assuming that the upa and the knee elbow escape were equally easy to pull off which one would you use if mounted? The upa to be on top or the knee elbow to be in the guard? Basically what you are asking is, would I prefer to be in someone's guard or have them in my guard. That depends, also. If the guy has a helacious guard, I'd rather have him in my guard (especially if he also has a great standup game). If he's got no guard game, I'll take the top inside guard position, pass his guard, and finish him from there.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Go to Tony's website and find out for yourself what his "fighting" background is all about. OK, I checked out his website. No mention of any competitive record.

Tony is making a living teaching this stuff, I assume. If he is really that great, wouldn’t it make sense from a marketing and promotional aspect for him to be out there beating all the other BJJer’s and submission grapplers with things like the step over toe hold/crossface?

As far as other things written on the site- Here is some of the hyperbole I take issue with:



Catch wasn't designed for use against guys with no ground experienceAccording to the website, the hooks in catch were designed to keep the carnie wrestlers from getting hurt and to help them win more decisively. An who were these guys fighting when they had to develop these "ruthless" hooks? Local farm boys, for the most part, who had little or no time or instruction available for ground grappling training.



Just imagine an Olympic level wrestler with an arsenal of submissions and you should start to get the picture
I don’t think I have ever heard one world class wrestler endorse catch. On the other hand many elite wrestlers such as Mark Kerr, Kevin Jackson, and Randy Couture have all done significant training in BJJ.



To a Hooker, fights should NEVER last for 2-3 hours.No kidding. The underlying assumption that other grappling systems might believe this shows a complete lack of understanding of other forms of grappling.

However, if your opponent is bigger and stronger than you, and also at a very high skill level countering you at every turn, you pretty much have no choice but to wear him down.



Often times matches were contested on surfaces ranging from dirt floors to rock hard pavement.I have seen NHB matches with the Gracies on wood gymnasium floors, a BJJ challenge match on carpet over concrete, and another BJJ challenge match on concrete in a backyard. Have you ever seen a catch fighter do a match on a hard surface like this?




Despite the rumors, most of these men weighed well under 200 pounds.
Really? Who? How many catch wrestlers are there at 170 lbs who can pull their stuff off against 260 pound guys like Royce was able to? And how many catch guys are there that weigh in at 140 lbs like Helio and Carlos Gracie?

Tony himself is probably a good 220-230 lbs.



Catch teaches you that controlling your opponent is much, much different from simply having a position on him.
Funny how the guard is disdained in catch, but this is exactly the philosophy of guard work...controlling your opponent from an inferior position.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Franks:

You're just digging more and more of a hole for yourself with this latest post...

to be continued.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Again I have to remind you - Sakuraba's grappling background is Catch...

and he beat 4 Gracies.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Yes - we can continue this dialogue...but I want to give people some visuals to back up what I will eventually post on this thread in answer to all your questions. Translation: this will give me a chance to research the questions which I don't have the experience to answer right away.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Again I have to remind you - Sakuraba's grappling background is Catch...

and he beat 4 Gracies. And did you see what happened to him when he tried to do the catch version of a punch against Nino? KTFO!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Franks:

The Catch version of a punch ?!?!?!

Man...you are really reaching for straws.

The only "time" I'm interested in is how long it will take for these people to get the tape - and the sooner the better.

[Merryprankster]

However i understood - and i may be wrong about this - that some bjj players consider the guard to be a positive position rather than the best negative position i.e. they might be slightly more cavalier about allowing themselves to end up in that position rather than actively trying to stay on their feet/avoid being on the floor.

nick, this completely depends on the person and also a couple of other factors.

the guy may have an outstanding guard. in an mma fight, you often know the opponents strengths and weaknesses ahead of time, so this might be a good option for that fight.

some people don't have much experience mixing striking with their ground grappling. these are the guys who are usually cavalier about the buttflop. they don't really understand what being on the bottom means because they've only experienced it within a grappling context. they usually don't do so hot here if the other guy has a little experience.

some people have lousy takedowns and the only way for them to get you into their world is to buttflop.

now me, tournamentwise, i'm a guard player. but let me tell you what that means to me streetwise - you're not keeping me on my back. i've swept 300lbers, kept-ex division one college wrestlers tied up, off balance or turned over with and without the gi, and learned to keep my face from getting pasted while i do it. if i want to get up, i will. self-defense wise i'm a guard player so i don't have to be, if that makes sense.

[KenWingJitsu]

Inside the guard of a good guard player is not a place you want to be. lol. MP is right it depends on the player and sometiems flexibility. A good guard player is a nightmare....feel like you're caught in a spider web. A bad guard player, maybe a guy who prefers to be on top, you're in no danger in his guard,...in that situation, he's more in danger.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Again I have to remind you - Sakuraba's grappling background is Catch... BTW, somewhere in my tape collection, I'm pretty sure I have some footage of Sak training at Beverly Hill Jiu Jitsu.

[Ultimatewingchun]

As part of the tape - somewhere in the area wherein Cecchine deals with guard - I'm going to include some footage of Sakuraba vs. Royce Gracie...both when dealing with Royce's guard...and other parts of the fight as well.

[anerlich]

Renzo and John Danaher have it that the guard is a neutral, rather than a superior, position, assuming the skill levels of the protagonists are the same. The groundfighting positions taught in TWC are arguably primitive versions of the open guard, and the tactics used similar to those used by Allan Goes in his match against Sakuraba (can't remember if Goes won or it was a draw, but Sak certainly never caused Goes any major problems during the match while the latter was on his back).

If you DO end up on your back with the other guy on top, there is NO other preferable place to be.

[Merryprankster]

Inside the guard of a good guard player is not a place you want to be. lol. MP is right it depends on the player and sometiems flexibility. A good guard player is a nightmare....feel like you're caught in a spider web.

truth. it's like riding a wave. fwiw, there's not much open when you're being controlled like that

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sakuraba was caught in what is arguably the best guard in the world - Royce Gracie's...

so what went wrong for Royce?

[Merryprankster]

arguably the best guard in the world - Royce Gracie's...

Royce is a legend, but nowhere near the best guard in the world. Royce also tends to wait for, vice create openings. it's worked pretty well for him, but is not always a winning strategy.

that said, the same thing happened to him that happens to a lot of people that compete. he lost. took a **** long while, but he lost. i also recall that Sak stayed the hell away from Royce's guard and instead chose a long distance game plan involving kicking the crap out of Royce's legs, rather than staying on the ground in Royce's guard. great game plan!!!

sak lost to silva because he couldn't take him down. so, catch's takedowns suck, right?

see, these types of arguments don't prove squat.

the guards a tool. that's it. and used well, it's extremely frustrating. used poorly and igor vovchanchyn does jackhammers on your face all night.

if you want to try and make some sort of argument out of that, be my guest, but frankly, i thought you were a hell of a lot smarter than that.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Merryprankster:

No, I'm not going to make an argument out of that - because you make valid points...although Sak kicking and punching the daylights out of Royce came very late in the 90 minute fight...there was quite a bit of grappling (both standing and on the ground) going on before the latter part of the fight...

My point was that Sak completely neutralized Royce's guard and at times actually hurt him while caught in it - in ways that many people have never seen before.

And I'd like to show you and some other people around here (who I respect) some of what I'm talking about...

I"m not asking anything other than people watch the compilation tape I'm putting together - and give an honest opinion of what they saw - concerning the Catch answer to the guard; but more importantly, covering all the points Franks raised ...Are there controlls and positioning in Catch that don't jeopoardize the constant attempts at submissions? How is it done? What is the strategy? Do moves like a step-over toe-hold with a crossface really work? etc.

So Merryprankster: Would you like a copy?


Dhira (KWJ): Would you like a copy?

[Merryprankster]

My point was that Sak completely neutralized Royce's guard and at times actually hurt him while caught in it - in ways that many people have never seen before.

the only people who haven't seen such things don't watch much mma.

why are we even talking about this? i'm so confused...guard is just guard...

uwc, i said i'd look at it, no problem. do you need more info from me? let me know, i'll be glad to help.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Merryprankster:

Now I'm confused... You just said that you already agreed to look at the video...But I don't know your name...A few people have contacted me already and have given names that I didn't recognize.

Are you one of them?

Contact me confidentially if you want - in order to confirm this.

[Merryprankster]

my name is james valentine. i'm sorry, i thought it was common knowledge here.

did you get my e-mail from Arlington, Va ?

[Martin Foot]

Hi
I have got Tony C’s the Lost Art of Hooking series, and though it doesn't give all the answers or all that Catch has in it's arsenal, I have been very impressed with the detail the series goes into in showing how to make what is standard even more effective, and showing what isn't standard to a bigger audience. An excellent set of tapes for anyone interested in improving their grappling/fighting skills, independent of what they call their grappling/fighting style.

[Ultimatewingchun]

James (Merryprankster):

Yes...I got your name and address.

So far, it's:

(1) James Valentine
(2) Nick Forrer
(3) Martin Foot
(4) Andrew Nerlich

[anerlich]

I've only seen one of Tony C's tapes, which was a tape he made with a BJJ black belt, Sean Chitwood, with TC demonstrating his methods of applying footlocks, the BJJ guy showing some really nice setups for them for sport jiu jitsu, and finishing with Tony C showing how illegal techniques in sport grappling could be very effectively applied for defense.

The footlock discussion and demo by Tony C was the best I've ever seen on the subject, and I've been to a number of black belt seminars, including some famous Brazilians. Even in what I consider the improbable scenario that TC was useless at every other aspect of grappling, he certainly knows his footlocks.

Students of both arts could undoubtedly learn a lot from each other if they stopped butting egos (hint).

Like every other MAist with a brain, Sakuraba trained with people from a variety of styles. He does pretty well against most people's guards, but as MP said, he rarely tries to sit in anybody's guard, more keep out of the way and try to get in quick with an occasional kick or strike. See his fight against Goes for how this occasionally doesn't work that well, see his fight against Vitor Belfort for how he can hurt someone there (though he didn't sub or KO VB either). Personally, I think his most technically astute victory against a Gracie was his Pride match against Renzo.

Victor, MP's proved himself to be a smart guy who makes useful contributions to this forum. He's OK.

[reneritchie]

What confuses me is that we had this discussion on another thread, so I'm not sure if Victor is just trolling?

Sak is *not* a catch-wrestler. Sak grew up learning Judo (like almost every Japanese male in the school system) and then learned professional wrestling from Takada et al.

Sak won many fights with Juji Gatame and Ude Garami, which are basic Judo movements (also bread and butter to BJJ people--given their roots, of course they would be). He did not win with pro-wrestling (albeit his Mongolian Chops were enteraining :)

And while the Japanese certainly try to blur the line between worked pro-wrestling and legit shoot fights, the bulk of pro-wrestling is designed for show, not for combat. It would be like sticking a Wushu performer in K-1 (or to draw a direct analogy, putting a Thai Boxer who also knew Wushu in the ring and claiming he was winning due to Wushu ;)

Sak had a very frustrating fight with Goes, so he went back, trained to fight against open guard, and developed his kicking strategy which he used on Belfort, Royce, etc. Guard fighters, seeing others adopt this, also went back to train against it, and Nog, Bustamante, and even Royce (who has far from the best guard in MMA) against Yoshida changed the dynamic again. Doubtless, it will continue to change, as it always has.

Andrew, Dhira, and James are correct :)

And anyone interested in catch:

http://www.groundfighter.com/products/catid/24.html

There's a discount code floating around the 'net as well, if anyone wants to save a few bucks.

[reneritchie]

(I should add, Sak has darn good freestyle wrestling shoots, and in addition to BHBJJ, he may have trained with Pehna (sp?) in BJJ)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Andrew, Rene:

Based on many of his posts that I've read from numerous threads in the past, I'm sure James (Merryprankster) is completely on the level; and I appreciate the fact that Sakuraba has cross-trained in other grappling arts besides Catch.

I keep referring to his fight against Royce because there are several aspects to the grappling part of the fight that demonstrate a Catch influence (including while standing)...and while his handling of Royce's guard doesn't even come close to some of the finer points that Cecchine demonstrates against the guard - certain principles are the same.

But remember folks - the guard question is only a small part of what I'm putting together. It's mainly about how Catch uses controls and positioning to set up various submissions...and how it uses other mauling-type tactics to set up controlling postions and submissions...and what some of those submissions are that may surprise some people.

In other words - a total rejection of Franks' (KF) assertions. The guy knows basically nothing about Catch.

But you people judge for yourself when I send you the tape.

And Rene - you are certainly welcome to a tape if you want one.

By the way...I forget to mention in my last post that Ernie will get a tape as well.

[Ernie]

hey victor
i pulled myself of this thread so i don't recieve updates , so hit me on the pm's for info :)

[reneritchie]

Catch benefits in that lack of formal dissemination means people probably still train the 'fowl' tactics (mauling or whatever) to a greater extent.

BJJ people, because of the dissemination, probably stick more to 'legal' tactics and so miss out some on that, but benefit from the safer ability to train intensely against highly resistant opponents, and a wider variety of people to work against (what Kano discovered through Randori).

Victor - Thanks. I have some Catch stuff and know some catch-trained people who are good. I like a lot of the catch stuff. I don't like their overall strategy as much, and think they're still more attribute dependant, but when in a bad situation (as opposed to in a control position) I think there's great value to catch (which some have also discovered in Sambo's leg attacks).

[Ultimatewingchun]

Rene:

Now with all do respect to what you just said....I would like to send you a copy of the tape I'm putting together. There are catch people - and there are Catch People.

Very...Very....few people have learned what Tony Cecchine has learned. It really is the "lost art of hooking".

You wrote: "I don't like their overall strategy - they're still more attribute dependent." This is a legitimate criticism of Catch - until you see a real "hooker" like Tony.

Let me know if you're interested.

-Victor

[Ultimatewingchun]

Spent some more time last night after class working on the Catch compilation tape - it's just about done. Want to get it out to you guys as soon as I can...Don't want the assertions about Catch Wrestling made by Dale Franks (alias knifefighter) to stay out there too long - they need to be answered thoroughly...one way or the other. You guys check it out and come to your own conclusions.

Will start making copies later on this week.

Curiously enough...still no mailing address given by Franks.

But this train is going to leave the station with him or without him.

Later,

Victor

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
But this train is going to leave the station with him or without him.
Don't worry about me. I've got plenty of catch tapes. I've already wasted enough hours just watching those.

Victor-
I'm glad you have found a grappling system that you like. Personally, I think a lot of it is over-hyped, pulled-out-of-the-ass BS. I believe this for the reasons than I have explained here, in addition to a variety of other reasons (of which I could write another complete essay).

As I have negative opinions of catch, you are perfectly entitled to your positive opinions. However, I will hold those opinions in much higher esteem if you ever enter an open submission grappling tournament and pull off your catch stuff there.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale Franks:


And I would have a much higher opinion of you if you were to watch the tape in question and THEN comment on Catch Wrestling.

I don't know what Catch tapes you've seen - but I'm putting together about 3.5 hours of Tony Cecchine's best stuff...and he's the best there is in Catch. How could you not want to see this? Given all the discussion and debate? Is it because you fear that the tape will answer all the questions you raise? With answers you didn't want to see/hear?

Quite (Dale) franky...

I find your attitude about this tape very revealing.

And it ain't good.

-Victor

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
I don't know what Catch tapes you've seen - but I'm putting together about 3.5 hours of Tony Cecchine's best stuff...and he's the best there is in Catch. How could you not want to see this? Given all the discussion and debate? Is it because you fear that the tape will answer all the questions you raise? With answers you didn't want to see/hear?I already have his "Lost Art of Catch Wrestling" series, plus two videos of him doing seminars, so I probably have already seen pretty much everything you will be putting together.

[Knifefighter]

What I have never seen is him sparring against a skilled opponent who is his size. Will you have any of that on your tape?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Franks:

What this tape will include is the "Ripping" series - an absolute must-see for anyone even remotely curious about how Catch really works where it counts the most...in the street. Forget about your "200 matches"...just check this out...

As well as some other real good stuff that doesn't exist on the tapes you mentioned...including every question you raised about the guard, step-overs w/crossface, controlling positions - and how not to give up control when going for all the various submissions that Catch uses...

and yes - some live action of Tony with a "resisting opponent."

You....Dale Franks...need to watch this tape - and then come back and try to tell me that this guy - and what he does...is carnival stuff that wouldn't work against some people you know...people you know of...and least but not least...

against you, yourself.

[Ultimatewingchun]

So far there are seven people who will receive the tape. I'll take three more.

1) Ernie
2) Andrew Nerlich
3) James Valentine (Merryprankster)
4) Nick Forrer
5) Martin Foot
6) Rene Ritchie
7) Chad Winters (Shadowboxer)


Still amazed that Dale Franks' name is not on the list. (Knifefighter)

[PaulH]

Victor,

Thanks! I take your offer as I like to know what makes this thread last so long! Ha! Ha! So what do I do to receive it?

Regards,
PH

[Ultimatewingchun]

PaulH:

Send me a pm or an email to: wingchun@usa.com

Include your full name and mailing address and I'll send you a compilation video tape of Tony Cecchine's stuff on Catch Wrestling.

All I ask in return is for you to post back on this thread after seeing the video - and give an honest opinion of the tape.

[PaulH]

Just send you the e-mail, Victor. What kind of things do you look for in my feedbacks?

Regards,
PH

[Ultimatewingchun]

PaulH:

There were several issues:

Does Catch Wrestling use controlling positions?

And if so - how efficiently does the system do this?

Does Catch maintain control of the opponent while going for submissions?

If so - how efficiently?

Does it sacrifice control while going for submissions?

How well does Catch deal with the bottom-scissors (known in BJJ as the guard)?

Do moves and submissions like the step/over toe-hold with a cross-face really work?

And whatever other comments and input you would like to offer about Catch, BJJ, and grappling in general.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
There were several issues:
Does Catch Wrestling use controlling positions? Not quite. The issue is, Does catch differentiate between better and worse positions? And if so, does catch have systematic techniques for moving from worse positions to better ones?


Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Does Catch maintain control of the opponent while going for submissions? Does catch teach the principles for practitioners to be able understand what needs to happen for a submission to be a high percentage move.



Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Does it sacrifice control while going for submissions?Does it teach the princples one needs to know in order to maintain as much control as possible when going for submissions.


As far as the tape, check your PM box.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale Franks (Knifefighter) wants the issues to be... "Does Catch differentiate between better and worse positions.

Okay. That's a good question. (And the answer might surprise you).

He also wants this question asked:

Does Catch teach the principles for practitioners to understand what needs to happen for a submission to be a high percentage move.

Okay. Good question.

Does Catch sacrifice control while going for submissions?

Not quite the question to be asked. The question should be...Does Catch work for control AND submission? (One of the basic arguments here is the Catch approach vs. the BJJ approach when going for submissions).

BJJ insists on near total control (through some very specific positioning) before going for a submission....Catch believes that as long as you have "enough" control over your opponent's
body - go for a submission...and don't worry about what "specific" position you're in - thereby making positioning virtually limitless.

He also wants the following question asked:

Does Catch teach the princples one needs to know in order to maintain as much control as possible when going for submissions.

Not quite, again...because it implies that near total control is always necessary before going for a submission. The question should be:

Does Catch teach the principles one needs to know in order to maintain as much control AS IS NECESSARY when going for a submission - so that any possible attempt at defense by your opponent won't result in a possible dangerous situation for the Catch wrestler?

And I'm going to add a few more questions that Franks' originally raised - which I believe the tape will answer:

Does Catch have an effective answer to the BJJ guard?

Is a Catch move like the stepover toe-hold with a crossface a carnival trick - or is it in fact an efficient fight-ending submission that can work against a skilled, resisting opponent?

I am going to include a print-out of this post along with the tapes.

And after watching the tape, please address these questions when you folks reply - and if you want to add comments of your own on these or other questions or grappling issues...please feel free to do so.


And one more thing:

We now have numbers 9 and 10:

9) Phil Redmond
10) Dale Franks (Knifefighter)

That's it folks...I've got enough work ahead of me.

Won't take any more requests...sorry.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Folks:

Although there is much more to know about how to set-up and pull off the step-over toehold with a crossface - and those "extras" will be covered on the video I'm compiling...

nonetheless, in the meantime, check this out right now:

www.catchwrestle.com/index.htm

[Merryprankster]

http://www.catchwrestle.com/stepovercrossface.gif

The cross face in this is ridiculous. What, the guys hands are just going to sit there? Absurd. I'm taking that thing off. The angle's simply awkward for a good hold. Needs a deeper grip

The toe hold has some merit, but there is some fundamental control loss going on with the attackers right arm. I want to see pinching in and tight as he goes for it to keep control over the limb. It could be better. Could turn it into a knee seperation submission, but I think the attacker's thigh is in the way. Need a smaller fulcrum. The big one (his thigh) kinda prevents optimization. A calf would be better for that. Never mind that his elbow isn't trapping the dummy man's foot/ankle to keep the pressure on. Maybe he's being nice and I'll see something different on the tape.

Could be a hip submission too, depending on what the attacker does with it. I've seen hip locks done from funny angles.

Yeah, if he straightens his leg and hips down it could be a hip lock. Not on me, but on most people. My hips are oddly flexible

Plausible, but I'm not seeing anything that makes me go wow. Looks awfully risky. The attacker has to raise his center to step over the opponent. Sweep city and that's why the right arm pressure on the leg for control is so important... you can keep the foot for a submission, even if you get dumped. I'm skeptical with just this gif, but not completely dismissive.

[Merryprankster]

BJJ insists on near total control (through some very specific positioning) before going for a submission....

Simply not true. This is a "white belt" mistake, actually. As you go up, you'll find you're almost NEVER able to get near total control on somebody, unless you're just that much better than them.

BJJ emphasizes learning how to control people through transitions from spot to spot and how to hit submissions during transitional phases.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Merryprankster:

I don't want to pre-empt the video - other than to say that all the concerns you raised in your last post (and then some) are addressed about the stepover toehold w/crossface vs. the guard...

What you saw is just the tip of the iceberg.

As regards my saying that BJJ seeks total control - this is a matter of semantics and definitions...what I meant by that phrase is that "very superior" controlling positions are usually what BJJ seeks before going for submissions, ie. - the mount/taking the back/the knee on chest/the guard, etc.

(Although Catch doesn't consider the guard to be a "superior" position of control - on the contrary, the man on top is considered to have a more controlling position than the man on the bottom).

[yenhoi]

If you roll with good grapplers, dont you become a good grappler?

:eek:

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by yenhoi
If you roll with good grapplers, dont you become a good grappler?

:eek:

Hopefully, but not necessarily.

[Merryprankster]

The guard is not considered superior. It's considered neutral at best, by every BJJer I know, at least against an unknown opponent.

Next time I hit an armbar in transition as I guard pass, I'll be sure to remember that I have to get a very superior position first.

I'm perfectly willing to review your tape and I HOPE the demonstration is better than that GIF. I've also certainly not run around telling you what catch is and isn't. So how about cutting the purple belt some slack on telling him what BJJ is and isn't?

I don't give a **** about any of it because my experience in several grappling arts tells me it's all the same **** anyway. The principles don't change an ounce from art to art, nor does the way they are employed.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Merryprankster:

Sure I'll cut you the slack about how to "label" the guard (superior position? neutral position?, etc.)

But as regards:

"the principles don't change an ounce from art to art, nor does the way they are employed"...


Well......Let's just wait for the tape.

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, cause that step over doesn't look anything like a navy ride or leg turk....

[reneritchie]

It is nice to see, however, that at least the bad-boy fight shorts have been accepted by the catch folks :p

[Ultimatewingchun]

My Man Merry:

You're gonna be amazed how much stuff will be on this tape about the step-over and ALL other related moves and issues about countering the guard...

and as for the bad-boy fight shorts, Rene...

LOL.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
So how about cutting the purple belt some slack on telling him what BJJ is and isn't? Why should he? He's already been busy telling the black belt what BJJ is and isn't.

MP- Here's a question for you. In your years of competing and rolling with other submission grapplers, have you ever seen, done, or had just the step-over (without even including the reverse crossface) from the guard done to you or another intermeddiate or advanced grappler in sparring or competition?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale Franks (knifefighter):

How could you expect anyone to have ever done (or even attempted to do) the stepover move to Merryprankster ?

Is this a popular move?

Do you know anyone who knows how to do this move correctly?

Or who knows how to set it up?

Or who knows all the various "chaining" possibilities with this move?

Or all the various responses to use - depending upon how the man in the guard reacts initially?

Or depending upon his intermediate reaction after the stepover is started?

Or all the various chains and reactions to use against the man in the guard who tries to initiate something before you begin the stepover - but after you have have began to set it up?

This is a troll question you're asking...as usual.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
How could you expect anyone to have ever done (or even attempted to do) the stepover move to Merryprankster ?

Is this a popular move? If it was a decent move, it would most likely be extremely popular. If you were a competitive grappler, you would understand that we will take anything that gives us an advantage over our competitors... especially one that would work well against guys whose guards give us hell. And it doesn't matter where it comes from.

We are not only competitive in tournaments, but also in sparring and we are constantly looking for an edge in both realms. I would love to have this be a workable technique against advanced grapplers, but, unfortunately, the reason it is not a popular move is probably because it only works against newbies who are smaller than you are.

[Merryprankster]

MP- Here's a question for you. In your years of competing and rolling with other submission grapplers, have you ever seen, done, or had just the step-over (without even including the reverse crossface) from the guard done to you or another intermeddiate or advanced grappler in sparring or competition?

No. I've never once seen this. My opponents have spanned the grappling landscape. In fact, IME, most no-gi grapplers are NOT from BJJ and further are kind of antipathetic towards it.



If it was a decent move, it would most likely be extremely popular. If you were a competitive grappler, you would understand that we will take anything that gives us an advantage over our competitors... especially one that would work well against guys whose guards give us hell. And it doesn't matter where it comes from.

1. Bingo. I'll reserve judgment, but as it is, i'm not feeling enlightened. Perhaps the tape will show more. I believe that anything that is principally sound will work provided you practice, practice, practice, so that's why i'm willing to reserve judgment - until I can really see it better than the gif.

2. Congrats on your promotion KF, last time I talked to you, you were a brown belt.

[reneritchie]

I've seen that step-over-pass before. I don't think it's considered bread-n-butter, however, and I don't think I've ever seen it used unless there was a great disparaty of skill and the better person was going for a little humiliation in the pass (probably slap on a little boston crab and yell 'pro wrasslin' wins!' at the end to really rub it in ;) )

Sperry, I think, shows a better version on VT1.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've got to admit I'm having a lot of fun with this - because the gif doesn't show any setups for the stepover (what you saw so far is just a kind of "trailor" for the movie, so to speak. Neither does it show other possible moves that can come out of the stepping over...but not necessarily into the toehold. And it doesn't show what could happen while one is beginning the step over - or if the man with the guard tries an underhook of the posted leg - or an attempted sweep...and it doesn't show instances where it would make sense to pop straight up and into a submission without even doing any stepover...

The possibilities of taking advantage of the guard are numerous - because trying to make a living while fighting from your back is NOT a good idea.

And remember...dealing with the guard is only part of this tape - no more than perhaps 15-20%.

And Included (amoungst many other things) will be what Catch teaches ARE superior positions - and why - and how to use them in ways that may surprise some of you grapplers.

Especially some of you "blackbelts"...Yes, let me add my congratulations also, KF, on your promotion.

[Martin Foot]

Victor
Will the tape show how to transition, i.e. a catch man moves around his opponent?

[Merryprankster]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
I've got to admit I'm having a lot of fun with this - because the gif doesn't show any setups for the stepover (what you saw so far is just a kind of "trailor" for the movie, so to speak. Neither does it show other possible moves that can come out of the stepping over...but not necessarily into the toehold. And it doesn't show what could happen while one is beginning the step over - or if the man with the guard tries an underhook of the posted leg - or an attempted sweep...and it doesn't show instances where it would make sense to pop straight up and into a submission without even doing any stepover...

The possibilities of taking advantage of the guard are numerous - because trying to make a living while fighting from your back is NOT a good idea.

And remember...dealing with the guard is only part of this tape - no more than perhaps 15-20%.

And Included (amoungst many other things) will be what Catch teaches ARE superior positions - and why - and how to use them in ways that may surprise some of you grapplers.

Especially some of you "blackbelts"...Yes, let me add my congratulations also, KF, on your promotion.

Jesus, this is just as bad as 'Every victory is a victory for Gracie JiuJitsu because all fighters are studying it," or "BJJ is better than Judo/wrestling/catch/sambo, because BJJ developed a system of leverages that allow a smaller, weaker man to defeat a larger one." You're being IMPOSSIBLY snotty. I really hate that.

For anybody who cares, let me tell you why I'm not especially excited about getting this tape. I'll review it out of curiosity and because I genuinely think I can provide appropriate perspective, but I don't expect I'm going to walk away as though the clouds parted and a shining light lifted my spirits.

I wrestled for five years. I've been doing a fair bit of Judo - while I am unranked, I have no problems competing with (not necessarily winning, but not getting *****ed either) blackbelts at the local and state level...not bad for a part time Judoka. My instructor and several training partners have Sambo and/or Judo blackbelts. I've got about 3.5 years in BJJ and have accounted for myself in a reasonable way.

Conservatively, I've logged probably somewhere around 200 grappling matches since I started doing this whole grappling thing. It's probably more but I can't give you a specific number - do the math and that works out to under 30 matches a year. Totally reasonable given wrestling season schedules and the fact that I compete both gi and no gi, compete once or twice every 4-6 weeks, and get somewhere between 3 and 9 matches on any given weekend, with 4-6 matches per weekend on average. No claims of hundreds of street fights here that I can't back up, thank you.

So I've come across a lot of different people doing a lot of "different" things - greco-roman, freestyle and scholastic style wrestlers, Judoka, Sambo guys, "submission grapplers," guys who claimed Catch, BJJ, JJJ, dudes who have "grappling in their style" and want to come play, Bando style wrestlers, a couple of mongolian-style wrestlers (I think they call it boke) and at least one fellow who claimed a Filipino style he called Dumog I think.

All of these "different" styles are doing the same **** things. Every one of them. There are some stylistic preferences, but the principles, and the way the body must move to employ them, are nearly identical...maybe the freestyle wrestler prefers leg takedowns, the Judoka likes throws more and the boke guy really likes his pick-ups and slams. Maybe the scholastic wrestler prefers a neck bridge and turn to the knee and elbow escape and maybe the BJJ guy doesn't mind being on his back while the "submission grappler" guy will fight like hell to stay off it. Maybe the Sambo guy likes leg-locks, but the JJJ guy isn't comfortable with them.

Some (many) of these preferences are the outgrowth of their competition rules - Judo has an instant win from a good throw, which is hard to get with a leg takedown, wrestlers don't have time to execute a knee and elbow escape because back exposure is huge points and both shoulder blades down at any moment is a pin. BJJers don't care because there's no such thing as a win by pin so they can use it.

But at the end of the day, when you throw all these guys together at a tournament, where the rules that day don't give any of these competition-rule-based preferences an especial advantage, (NAGA has an EXCELLENT system for this which really works well) these guys are all doing the SAME THINGS to win. Individual or stylistic philosophy aside, they are moving in the same ways, and using the same principles to succeed. Yeah, the guy with 13 years of wrestling under his belt usually feels a little different than the BJJer - more aggressive, more willing to take risks, more willing to stick his chin in your eye, grind your head with his elbow or forearm, etc. - there is not a fundamental difference in the principles or movements either is using to succeed.

As GENERALITIES, Mexican boxers are famous for taking two to give you one, but make that HURT, American boxers prefer footwork, head movement and slickness, and European boxers stand more upright, use less body english and less side to side movement.

But oddly, it's all boxing. All of them are doing fundamentally the same things even if it's got a bit of a different flavor from place to place and camp to camp and gym to gym and even trainer to trainer. Similarly, it's all grappling. Hell, I love watching Sumo because I know what's going on even though I've never done it and my exposure is limited. Why? Because the principles involved are identical even if the rules influence technique choicees in ways that I have not personally experienced.

Yet I'm supposed to believe that Catch is some sort of revolutionary thing? That it's "better?" These grappling arts, which span continents and years and originated, in some cases, completely independently of each other, are all doing the same things, but Catch is somehow unique and special?

I don't buy it.

Last comment, which may not go down well. The "unique and special" attitude is a beginner attitude - a "white belt" mistake born of gross inexperience, or the desire to sell you a product.

And now I'm hearing it about Catch.

[unkokusai]

Uh........yeah. What he said.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Martin Foot:

Yes...the video will show the transitions.


Merryprankster (James):

I've been trying to walk a fine line between answering Franks' off-the-wall and ignorant barbs about Catch; his self-serving claims to all kinds of "credentials"; his arrogant attitude about what "credentials" are, and how all others are to be judged by his standards...

trying to balance that with not going overboard in my praise for Catch Wrestling.

And it's not easy to do.

So, at the risk of allowing a troll to get all kinds of unanswered airtime in his attempt to define REAL Catch Wrestling for everyone in advance...so that they might not allow themselves to really "see-what-they-see" when they watch the tape...and instead be intimidated into caving-in...in advance of getting the video...All of this accomplished by someone who loves to play the "predator" game of jumping all over people from the bushes when they say something he doesn't like (ie.- what they say implies that what Franks' has been doing for x-amount of years might not be the end-all and be-all); and which can be especially easy for a guy with Franks' supposed knowledge of BJJ and grappling in general to pull off on a Wing Chun forum - where relatively few people have any significant grappling knowledge...

At the risk of letting that happen -

I will defer to the theme of your last post. Because you make a valid point. I don't want overkill on my part to spoil the party.

So I'll try my best to be more moderate in what I say until the video is in the mail to everyone.

At that point...well...we'll see.

[Phil Redmond]

Hey, You guys are talking way over my head with this grapping stuff. I teach in the same facility as a JKD Gym and the Sifu, Chris Malgari, that teaches BJJ, and Vale Tudo has fought in NHB contests and won. I've
seen tapes of his fights. He's good at what he does IMO. I've seen some of what Victor has to offer. He know his stuff as well. I'm really interested now. So, I have a plan.
How about I learn from Merryprankster, Knifefighter, and Victor and I decide which is more effective? (Big Kool Aid smile)
It'd be a win, win situation for me.
Phil

[reneritchie]

Got heel-hooked again this weekend. My awareness of that type of stuff is just not high enough. Gotta go limp over to physio... :(

[old jong]

You have to tap faster!...;)

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
I've been trying to walk a fine line between answering Franks' off-the-wall and ignorant barbs about Catch; his self-serving claims to all kinds of "credentials"; his arrogant attitude about what "credentials" are, and how all others are to be judged by his standards...My standards are not so special... just get out there, compete, and make your stuff work against other grapplers in an open competitive environment. Otherwise, you are just doing the old "my stuff is too deadly for competition" routine and end up with a bunch of techniques that can only be pulled off in the privacy of your cloistered environment or in worked matches.

I've seen several examples of them not working in competitions, and I can give you the biomechanical reasons that some of them are done inneffectively, so isn't it reasonable that I just want to see examples of the techniques you are claiming to be so special working against other grapplers in competitive matches.

The problem with your approach is that you don't have any objective criteria to determine which techniques are valid and which ones are not.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Franks:

Take a look at the video...and then see if you think the moves and principles are coming from a cloistered or worked environment.

And if you still believe that - you should consider taking your resume to Chicago and telling the man about your BJJ black belt, and your 200 matches, and the Golden Gloves, and the MMA events you've participated in...

and then tell him that his moves against Dale Frank's guard wouldn't work...or that his emphasis on control and submission wouldn't work against your position and submission...or that your strikes and kicks in combination with your overall grappling skills would just be too much for his Catch-As-Catch-Can...etc.

And be sure to bring a video camera.

And if you beat him - what an incredible addition to your resume that would be, huh?

[reneritchie]

Yeah, like before I start :)

[captain]

rene,you did judo [you said],you must have some idea of ground work,you must.not the least,knowing that a certain position puts you in line for the foot thing.Are you doubting your wing chun at all because of this?
any of you grapplers get the weak hands i spoke of after a hard work out.?

Russ.

[reneritchie]

I am doubting my ligaments because of this.

[anerlich]

"rene,you did judo [you said],you must have some idea of ground work,you must.not the least,knowing that a certain position puts you in line for the foot thing."

Off list conversations with Rene tell me he is no neophyte with grappling or groundfighting.

Certain positions do put you in danger of certain locks, but the difficulty is drawing the line between avoiding injury by hanging on too long, and working on your escapes and neutralisations by trying to work it until it's obvious escape is impossible. The hips knees and ankles have less "play" in them than the shoulder,wrist and ankle, and are less sensitive, so injury is more likely. The Machado HQ in Australia has had only one serious broken arm, but over a dozen broken legs.

I've been very lucky with footlocks. In my early days of grappling a guy grabbed my foot and just about twisted it off - we both heard a loud CRACK and I had a jolt of pain. But somehow all I got out of it was a mild soreness for about four weeks. I also got heel hooked quite badly once, but once again the pain only lasted a short time.

These days my training buds and I only do kneebars and straight footlocks when freerolling. We train twisting locks but never full speed.

To suggest grappling is more dangerous than anything else is not necessarily correct - I've had two knockouts, a ruptured eardrum that got infected, broken ribs x 3, and black eyes and damaged joints too numerous to count in my WC training. We've had two guys and a girl needing knee reco's due to training accidents in the last 12 months (NOT due to carelessness of their sparmates).

"Are you doubting your wing chun at all because of this?"

Why would you? No one has to choose.

"any of you grapplers get the weak hands i spoke of after a hard work out.?"

I can't find your post mentioning this, but you adapt, both getting stronger where you need to and more efficient where you don't need to use so much strength, with grips as well. My major problem with grappling at the moment is elbow hyperflexion pain from having too many big guys crushing me in side control. But it doesn't stop me doing much.

[captain]

"neophyte",good for you anerlich,great word.and you coming from down under too!though,it must be said,few of us here have actually published books about the martial arts,rene has and i was simply surprised that he was caught in that manner [again].
thank you kindly for the grappling advice,i shall take your hints back to the judo hall and try them out.can someone do wing chun [or anything] and doubt it,why yes,it's called life.

Russ.

[kj]

Originally posted by captain
.

What correlation is there between writing a book and being impervious? Perhaps I'm missing something. :confused:

Regards,
- kj

[reneritchie]

It's easy to not get caught if you avoid people who are better than yourself. However, you seldom grow/learn that way.

I like situations where I'm forced to adapt/improve, and there's a price to pay for that. (In this case, ice, supplements, physio :)

And Anerlich is correct. I've had my cheek cut wide open, black eyes, ears that hurt so much I briefly considered cutting them off. Neither stand up nor ground, nor any type of martial arts is risk free. There's always a cost to doing business.

[anerlich]

"neophyte",good for you anerlich,great word.and you coming from down under too!

You don't say where you're from, but FYI Australia is actually overrepresented per head of population in elite literary, scientific, sporting, and MA achievements.

And we hate being patronised by our intellectual inferiors ;)


though,it must be said,few of us here have actually published books about the martial arts,rene has and i was simply surprised that he was caught in that manner [again].

Every elite sportsman or martial artist is pushing the fine line between maximum performance and injury. If you're not challenging yourself and the best training partners you can find, you're marking time. In grappling particularly, you learn most in the sessions you have with people with much greater skill than you. you learn more by losing than winning.

Despite opinions to the contrary expressed here and elsewhere, WC training will not prepare you to successfully compete with submission grapplers at their own game.

And, with no criticism of Rene intended, historical research and writing books (or posts on internet forums) will not make you better at physical skills like MA.

[Merryprankster]

rene,

as soon as you feel the forearm slip under your heel, spin like crazy. I don't screw with heel hooks. I don't play footsies trying to get out of them, I spin like mad while mule kicking/sprinting away.

If you're having a hard time discerning where the forearm is, know this - if your knee is BENT, the heel hook attacks the knee. If your leg is STRAIGHT, it attacks first the ankle, then the hip. The knee is the preferred target.

Straighten your leg at the knee, turn, spin like hell and sprint out.

Just practice it and it will come naturally.

(UWC) Sifu Parlati,

Fair enough bud. I can't blame you or argue with your reasons. Well, I mean I could, but we're all human! No harm, no foul. When I heal up, I do get that way from time to time. Maybe I'll swing by if I can ditch my Fiancee for a few hours while she goes shoe shopping or somethin.

[Ultimatewingchun]

James (Merryprankster):

I've you're ever in NYC - you'd always be welcome to stop by...my wife and your fiancee could go shopping together while we work out !

I've made 5 copies of the tape so far...I should get it all in the mail to you folks by no later than Monday.

[captain]

in that case,in addition to all the wonderment about how great your master is and such,you also need to include a responsible chapter [yes,a chapter and not a scant paprgraph] on injuries and health/safety issues.Rene,ive often annoyed you for advice and have benefited from you responses,but it was news to me that you have suffered such nasty injuries.Mention of this in a book is needed.
anerlich,you sure you don't mean Austria?[you have humour down under,right?]

Russ.

[reneritchie]

Merryprankster,

Thanks, I tried to spin, but didn't straighten the leg. I'll play with that once I'm healed up (no pun intended). :)

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by captain
in that case,in addition to all the wonderment about how great your master is and such,you also need to include a responsible chapter [yes,a chapter and not a scant paprgraph] on injuries and health/safety issues.Rene,ive often annoyed you for advice and have benefited from you responses,but it was news to me that you have suffered such nasty injuries.Mention of this in a book is needed.
anerlich,you sure you don't mean Austria?[you have humour down under,right?]

Russ.

If any serious martial artist writing a book had to make mention of all the different risks, injuries, and consequences of such injuries that a person could sustain in this endeavor, a chapter is still insufficient. It would be the whole book.

(drum roll please .....)

Here's the book:
Sports Medicine for the Combat Arts (http://www.boxergenics.com/books.html), by Joseph J. Estwanik, M.D.


I've read it. It's enough to give most anyone a shiver and say: "EEEEEIIOOOOWW, YUUUUUK!!!!!!!!!" :)

The book is very good and quite thorough. Perhaps the disclaimers for the combat arts should mention this book. :cool:

[anerlich]

anerlich,you sure you don't mean Austria?[you have humour down under,right?]

Yes, I'm sure I don't mean Austria.

We have humour here, but at a level of sophistication and intelligence to which you are obviously unaccustomed.

[captain]

i don't think neighbours/home and away counts as smart comedy.Rolf harris on the other hand......."can ya tell what it is yet"?yep,it's an over sensitive martial artist!injuries are bad news,and books need to talk about that.

[anerlich]

don't think neighbours/home and away counts as smart comedy

Any resemblance to comedy is purely coincidental with those shows. They are marketed as drama, BION, though you may find moments of unintentional comedy therein. They're more popular in other countries than they are here - we send our dumbed down fodder to countries like yours to match the intelligence level of the population and rake in the cash, while keeping good comedy programs like The Glass House for ourselves.


yep,it's an over sensitive martial artist

Man, that "Austria" joke is about 1000 years old. Most Australians have heard it a dozen times before they start primary school.

I'm trying to steer you away from aspiring to succeed in areas where you have no talent - comedy, but there are no doubt many others - so if I'm sensitive, it would be to your limitations and the likely pain that will follow your failed attempts to exceed them.

Always glad to help out those on the left side of the bell curve. :cool:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Will be finished making all the copies of the Tony Cecchine Catch Wrestling compilation tape by Sunday night - and will put them all in the mail on Monday.

[captain]

how exactly does one pronounce ANERLICH,surely one must be careful?

Russ.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The following post will be included as a print-out in the package I will be mailing certain folks along with the Catch-As-Catch-Can Wrestling compilation tape. And I believe that EVERYTHING mentioned in this post will be covered in great detail on the tape by Tony Cecchine; and in fact, much more than what will be mentioned in this post will be covered, and all questions that were raised will be adequately addressed and satisfied. But I want to keep the issues fresh in peoples' minds....

They were: Whether or not Catch Wrestling moves such as step-over toeholds were just carnival tricks that don't really work; whether or not the Catch answers to the BJJ guard position work or not; they were how does Catch maintain control while going for submissions; whether or not Catch believes that certain positions are better than other positions; they were how does Catch utilize and apply those positions; whether or not the Catch philosophy of Control and Submission stacks up against the BJJ philosophy of Position and Submission, and how does Catch use transitoning from one position or hold to another, etc.

Let me start at the beginning...Catch Wrestling - or "hooking" - is one of the oldest forms of fighting known to man. It's lineage dates back to 648 B.C. - when it was first introduced to the Greek Olympics as "Pankration". In the late 1800's, right here in the United States, a group of carnival wrestlers (ie.- Barnum and Bailey) emerged that practiced a modified form of the old Greek style - calling it "hooking".

And Catch Wrestling is the reason for the original meaning of the term no-holds-barred...meaning, Catch any hold you can...hence the name, Catch-As-Catch-Can Wrestling. And it includes what is known as "ripping" techniques: strikes, knees, elbows, gouging, attacking pressure points, etc.

Catch is brutal, in that gouging and ripping is a style of wrestling - not haphazard techniques and tactics. When you are manipulating a man's body properly, you create openings and changes...so there is a time for ripping and a time not to rip. Certain rips will work from CERTAIN POSITIONS more frequently than other rips - SO THERE'S A STYLE HERE. That's important to remember. There's a science behind every move.

But there's no substitute for knowing how to wrestle. You do the rips as you're doing your wrestling. And every aspect of Catch, including the rips, can be done from on the feet. And certain rips will bring a specific reaction from your opponent - which is what you're looking for.

Now...as to the front body scissors (known in BJJ as the guard). BJJ has developed the mindset that this is a good position to be in - if brought to the ground - but Catch teaches that being between the man's legs ("caught" in his guard)...is in fact the DOMINANT position in this scenario: yes, the BJJ fighter can "do" things from here - but Catch teaches never to rely on such a position - either get a quick submission or get out from the bottom...because it's very easy to beat the guard position, or make things very rough for the man holding you in the guard.

Catch teaches how to make the man with the guard carry the full brunt of your weight...LIKE ALL OTHER POSITIONS THAT CATCH USES ON THE GROUND. It teaches how to keep your weight below his center-of-gravity...by lowering your hips - and with no space between your hips and his...in other words...like with many ground positions - Catch teaches HIP CONTROL..your hips must control his hips.

And one of the ways to use a transition is to split his legs open by attacking the ephemeral arteries on his legs and pass the guard to a HEAD AND ARM POSITION...a very important move (or position) used in Catch Wrestling. Catch also teaches that BEING ON TOP is a superior position.

If he tries to sit up after you've split his legs - you can use his arm(s) as hooks to pass and get around him to the CROSS SIDE POSITION...another important position used in Catch. What I've just described are only some of what's taught to defeat the guard - as the tape will show.

It is also taught in Catch that is important to have control over the opponent before going for a submission - but any scenario between you and your opponent is a "position" - but not everything is a submission; in other words, getting a "position" on someone doesn't mean anything as to winning the fight - I can hold someone who's positioned on top of me for two hours..it's the punch, or the elbow, or the armlock or choke, etc. that will end the fight.

So Catch Wrestling looks for Control over the opponent - the difference between Catch abd BJJ being that BJJ usually looks for SPECIFIC POSITIONS to be in before going for a submission - Catch does not.

So according to BJJ philosophy, for example, Renzo Gracie had Sakuraba in a "superior, dominant position" - but yet he lost the match. Renzo was over top - Sak had exposed his back...But so what?

Sak had CONTROL over Renzo's arm - and broke his arm (and therefore won the match).

There are subtleties here that can't be oversimplified.

Yet Catch believes that being on top is a "dominant" position - as long as you have control over your opponent's body. But it also teaches not to be afraid of moving around while on the ground - as long as you're controlling the guy...or attempting to control him - perhaps by going for a limb...(watch the part on the tape when Sak goes for Royce Gracie's leg). But more importantly - watch how Tony always seems to be going for limbs - but always doing so without sacrificing control.

Catch also teaches the importance of always trying to put the opponent's body (ie.- his head) in an unnatural position...an example is the Catch figure four choke or figure 4 facelock - a better move than the guillotine because you don't have to arch your back or fall to the ground to make it work - and therefore you can get one of these two submissions from many different "positions".

Now let's return to ripping for a moment. Ripping oriented moves can set up space to do this or that (when trying to escape from the cross chest position, for example). And when using the cross chest - AS WITH JUST ABOUT EVERY GROUND POSITION - unlike BJJ - Catch teaches to stay off your knees - you must have a lowered center of gravity and you must make him carry most of your weight...especially important when holding someone down.

Again - control his hips with your hips...driving with you feet and up on your toes...keeping your hands free and making yourself as heavy as possible - like a steamroller going over the pavement - being hard and driving at all times - keeping him in an unnatural position; and using a 30 degree angle when using chest-to-chest...for maximum weight upon him...driving your hips downward and hipping into him.

And once these fundamentals are mastered - the Catch Wrestler is taught to constantly be open to improvising like a jazz musician would do...grappling is like a pool game - understand the underlying principles - but each "shot" will be slightly different than the last time you tried it - the balls are always in slightly different positions...YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIMITED be "specific" positions.

When holding someone down - go for ultimate control and take his space away...by constantly ADJUSTING YOUR HIPS BELOW HIS CENTER OF GRAVITY...again - a major principle of Catch Wrestling.

Another staple position of Catch Wrestling is the Head and Arm position - but unlike other styles of grappling - Catch heavily emphasizes getting his shoulder OFF the ground - and get your own butt off the floor - again, because he will really be carrying all your weight if you do this.

And when Transitioning from cross chest position to the head and arm position (or vice versa)...keep your hips low - so when transitioning from one position and flowing into another one...again - stay off your knees...because by doing this - unlike other styles of grappling - transitioning moves are fast AND tight - and always with a constant pressure upon your opponent.

The same with the lateral press position (north-south)...but Catch emphasizes trapping his head underneath your body - again with your lowered hips and lowered bodyweight.

Transitioning when you're on your knees is not as efficient as what has been described here - because you're giving him space to move - and you're not staying as tight and as heavy upon him as you could be.

To reiterate an earlier point: In Catch-As-Catch-Can Wrestling - the goal is to hook someone...therefore Submission supercedes anything else...meaning - submission over position.

But...before submission comes control. The Catch Wrestler doesn't (in the final analysis) care what position he's in - as long as, at that moment in time, he has control.

Establishing control when using the Saddle position (the mount) is also very important - and again..Catch teahes to use your hips to control his hips - and squezze with the thighs as well.

Don't have your knees simply resting on the floor - use them to control him and make him carry most of your weight - although your feet and toes are on the floor and driving.

And, like taking the back...the saddle is NOT the end-all and be-all - because there are many possible dominant positions of control....and like the pool game...as the tape will show - there are many possible finishes from the saddle - including punching.

This is just a small part of what the tapes will show - regarding overall fighting philosophy, positioning, controls, rips, numerous ways of using and applying NUMEROUS submissions - and answering all the questions that were initially raised about Catch's efficiency.

Later,

Victor

[captain]

victor,in this months combat magazine [from the uk] there is a nifty article on the history of grapple based arts.going back eons.might be worth a look,if you cant get it there,ill scan and send it.

Russell.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Russell:

If you can scan it and send it, that would be great.

Thanks,

Victor

[Ultimatewingchun]

In the second paragragh of the long post I made Sunday...I wrote that one of the questions raised between myself and Dale Franks (knifefighter) was:

"Whether or not the Catch philosophy of Control and Position stacks up against the BJJ philosophy of Position and Submission..."

This should have read:

"Whether or not the Catch philosophy of Control and SUBMISSION stacks up against the BJJ philosophy of Position and Submission."

[Nick Forrer]

Victor-

You probably know this but...

In the bottom right hand corner of your post there is an edit function- that will allow you to edit your previous post.

Im only just getting to grips with all this myself..

Looking forward to that video tape

[Ultimatewingchun]

Nick:

Thanks for the info about the 'edit' function...no, I didn't know about it.

Just cleaned up the error and some other typos on that long post I made.

[Nick Forrer]

Victor:

Got my tape in the post this morning. Many thanks- looks really good - can get a better idea of what you mean by control and difference in guard philosophy from BJJ.

Will post review later

[Ernie]

hey victor
a bjj blue belt came by the school last night after everyone left he wanted to show me a few things [ on the cement ]

he put me in some of his favorite submission .

escaped all but one with a bite , he was totally freaked out

he caught me with some bicep pain complience lock in the open gaurd , it was nice one of his bread and butter moves

but i got out of all the others it was a blast

i also head butted him on the solar plex and knocked the wing out of him

and i pulled off a standing knee drop on the top of his bare foot while i elbowed him in the thigh

hell i even got a standing heel hook
which he told me i shouldn't play with to easy to hurt some one

he also told me most of this stuff would only work once and i laughed , said in the street it only has to work once


much fun :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

"...In the street it only has to work once..."

HaHaHaHa !!!

You're gonna love the "ripping" part of the tape I sent you !

Be sure to show it to Dhira also.


Nick:

Will await your opinion on the tape...:D

[Ernie]

victor ,
will do , and i will see if i can convert the tape to vcd and send it back to you with the dumog stuff , that way you just need to burn copies of the cd if you ever want to send it out to any other people .:D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

If you could do that...that would be appreciated.

-Victor

[anerlich]

Got my tape last night.

Only had time so far for a brief skim on fast forward, but looks like some interesting material thereon.

Thanks Victor.

[Martin Foot]

Hi Victor
I have received the tape, & I will be looking at it over the next few days

[Ultimatewingchun]

Merryprankster (James):

You wrote on the other thread:

"Did I mention the pinning..."

Do you really believe that the tape is about pinning someone's shoulders to the mat for a three count? Or is the tape about how to control and hurt people with submissions and rips?

You also wrote:

"Tremendous lack of limb control on many entries which would likely lead to failed submissions..."

What video were you watching?

And you said:

"I am familiar with the final position of the step-over toehold, minus the crossface. The crossface is ridiculous. The other guy isn't going to lay there - he's going to push his arm off his face..."

How is he going to do that? He will be feeling enormous ripping pain in his knee - which could be blown out at any moment - while he's laying face down on the floor....and while being elbowed hard in the face (as well as simultaneously having his face pushed and pinned to the other side by the elbow strike)...and he can't pushup - because the guy will be sprawling across his back...SO WHERE IS THE ARM-STRENGTH AND LEVERAGE COMING FROM...to simply "push the arm off his face" ?!

You also said:

"Nobody (within Catch) developed guard work because of the rule based preference... "

Again you refer to pinning - but the "hooking" aspect of Catch Wrestling is NOT about pinning; and the tape was all about hooking - and using rips, controls, and positioning to set up the hooks.

You continued: "Because nobody developed guardwork, nobody developed very good ways of dealing with it"...

Again - what tape were you watching? Many ways of dealing with it are demonstrated.

And you wrote:

Lack of understanding of guard position both top and bottom was blatant...I never once witnessed the appropriate hip control..."

No - what you witnessed was the Catch wrestler controlling the guard player's hips !

And finally, you wrote:

"I don't do Catch or know anybody outside competitors that lay claim to Catch as a style..."

Today, May 17th, 2004, Josh Barnett...that's right - THAT Josh Barnett - as in a top ranked heavyweight who fights in both the UFC and Pride events...Josh posted on Tony Cecchine's forum (you have to be a member to access it).

But you can email Josh at the following address if you want to corrobate what I'm about to report. www.joshbarnett.tv

He emailed Tony several days ago and then today posted for the first time on Tony's forum...confirming that he's been studying Catch in Japan and that Tony's tapes have really lifted his game a great deal - giving special props to the stopper toehold and the shin locks that Tony teaches...

and speaking of shin locks...and this too can easily be verified...

Three weeks ago, on April 25th, a student of Tony's...Alan Moore, won the South Carolina Submission Grappling Tournament - in the heavyweight division.

He wrestled two guys - the first one was a BJJ fighter who pulled guard - but tapped out when Alan countered with the shin lock. The match lasted two minutes.

In his second match (it's not clear what style his opponent came from)...the guy shot in for a single leg - Alan sprawled...and caught him in a front headlock (that's from a north-south type position)...the guy tried to roll out - and Alan caught him in and submitted him with a head scissors...THAT DISLOCATED THE GUY'S JAW. The match lasted 45 seconds.

Also, Alan's girlfirend, whose name is April, beat a female BJJ fighter 20 lbs. heavier than her with a submission...a top wristlock applied from the cross chest position. (This position and finishing move was demonstrated quite extensively on the tape). April also took the first place trophy in her division.

I didn't include anything on the compilation tape about the head scissors - or quite a few other advanced moves and strategies, for that matter.

Well...anyway...James - thanks for your input.

[Merryprankster]

I don't do Catch or know anybody outside competitors that lay claim to Catch as a style..."

Sifu Victor, my point was that *I* don't know anybody that does catch, yet, I've seen every submission on this tape. All of them. Except the "cold" entry into the step over toe hold. I'm familiar with EVERY principle on this tape. All of them. I've used them. The claim to uniqueness rings hollow, like it always does, no matter who says it. I'm glad Josh Barnett and his girlfriend and a guy named Alan who won a tournament like it though. I might also point out that all the submissions you listed in that post are things I am familiar with. I've won two matches in competition with shin locks.

I don't actually have a problem with any of this, although you seem to keep wanting me to. I don't get why you seem to be spoiling for a fight. Argue it with KF.


Do you really believe that the tape is about pinning someone's shoulders to the mat for a three count? Or is the tape about how to hurt people with submissions and rips?

Again you refer to pinning - The "hooking" aspect of Catch Wrestling is NOT about pinning.

No. I believe the tape was really about the hooking, which is distinct from catch wrestling as a whole. I am praising their very good wrestling while discussing their pinning skills. Pinning skills here are excellent and they have a very real purpose. Body control creates joint isolation by reducing the ability of the opponent to use his body as a unit. This reduces opponent leverage and therefore resistance to further control, transition and manipulation. I don't know how you can possibly interpret this as me not knowing what I'm looking at.

With regards to THAT separate issue - do I "understand what I am looking at" :rolleyes:, I am making a different point. Catch wrestling as a whole, historically, involved winning by either the pin or the submission, and no matter what anybody tells you, historically, the bottom man in the guard position was considered in danger of getting pinned and thus losing the match.

The position was undesireable in catch and its history not just because you can get hit, but because you could lose very quickly by pin unless you made an enormous effort to keep those shoulder blades off the mat. Surely you can see how this rule based situation hampered the evolution of guard work.

The corrollary to this is that absent the challenge of a truly developed guard, you are not forced to come up with truly developed ways of dealing with it. It was apparant, watching that tape. There's not enough control over the bottom man's hips. When there are too many degrees of freedom of movement, the bottom man can retaliate.

Incidentally, Megaton Diaz uses almost precisely the type of hip control when in somebody's guard as shown in the tape, and so does Leo Dalla, both noted BJJ black belts (who incidentally, never studied catch)...but they also use their arms and elbows in various configurations in conjunction with it for the simple reason that you have to. It's not enough by itself. It's a darn good start, but it's a 50% solution.

With regard to limb control, I had a specific problem with many of the entries. Once control over the limb was established, everything else was fairly straightforward. Like I said, this is probably because of the emphasis on flow and aggressive willingness to attack a submission. But limb isolation on this tape could have, and in my mind, should have, been improved.

Cold entry on the Step over toe hold, here're my notes:

Not enough control over lower leg during entry. Can be solved by pinching the elbow in as he drives across. Will reduce chance of getting swept and also sets opponent up for foot attacks should you miss. Final lower body position legit, hip, knee and foot locks available.

Crossface: The position of the arm makes it easy for the bottom man to turn the head away and push it off. Hell, that's the first thing I'm doing. Never mind tucking the head to prevent it. Would work better if it were a tad deeper and more in the crook of the elbow. Don't care for the configuration here. It's not like the guy is going to sit there and let you do it. Nice if you can get it. Unlikely.

Ripping pain and such sound nice at all, but the key to this finish, for a hip lock or knee submission is getting your opponents hips pinned to the mat while hip heisting forward. The angle and your opponent's flexibility will determine whether it's a hip or knee submission. The crossface is an effort to do that by bowing him backwards, improving the leverage you have to keep his hips pinned to the ground.

Since that is the end goal, I personally think a better solution would be to use the crossface to get him to lift or turn his head and work your arm under his neck or more down on his chin and then lift back without going for the shoulder. You're not REALLY looking for a neck crank here anyway. You're really trying to get better leverage on the lower body submission - and keep the opponent from basing back since his hips are smashed into the mat, as distinct from the 'push-up' which you brought up and I never suggested as that is a recipe for disaster as any grappler will tell you), which will take pressure off the knee/hip.

For the record, pain is just discomfort. You endure that. You tap when something's going to give. Totally different.

I'm done with this. You asked me for a review and I gave it, noting both positives and negatives as appropriate. What it really seemed you wanted was for me to review the tape and become a convert. I can't because there's nothing to convert TO. I've been doing it for 8.5 years - different emphases and some rule-based preferences involved, but it's the same. The differences are cosmetic at best, but the engine, body, and drive train are the same... somebody just prefers blue over red and maybe one of those "Mean People Suck" bumper stickers. No biggie.

I say all of this without any animosity. There's nothing wrong with this tape, with Catch or anybody's pursuit of it. Strengths and weaknesses like any other system of approach, but nothing that makes it 'better,' 'worse', or 'unique' to any other system out there. It's grappling, clearly well based in western wrestling in both outlook and strategy, but at the end of the day, just another way to skin this cat.

I hope the offer to come play is still open - and with friendly intent! :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

James (Merryprankster):

Don't get me wrong - you're welcome to come for a friendly workout anytime you're in NYC.

And there's no need to refer to me as Sifu Parlati...just call me Victor.

[anerlich]

Caveat: I've been a Machado blue belt for about 13 months. I do not have James' grappling experience, not even the same ballpark.

Tony's C's stuff on pinning (really, controlling the guy from the top rather than getting a three count) is indeed very good. I don't think there are any "secret techniques" here, just good sound mechanics, Which IMO is the real foundation of any effective system anyway.

The submissions are good too, though not particularly exotic - once again that ain't necessarily a bad thing. Nor are they unique - the guillotine variation with the hand on the trap and the neck twisted, with the optional face lock variation was shown to me by a Kung Fu guy in the 1980's. Some I haven't seen before, but that maybe because I need to widen my BJJ circle rather than that my chosen art doesn't have them or hasn't stolen them yet.

Where IMO Tony C really shines is in his willingness and ability to explain small details which make a big difference, something often missing from other instructionals. At my level I certainly found useful details which will definitely improve my positional control from the top (I rolled this morning, and my training bud said I was much heavier and tighter, just from paying attention to Tony's pointers, esp using my hips). But these I suspect will be more useful for a beginning or intermediate BJJer rather than a purple belt or above. I'd hope that anyone in BJJ who'd been training in his art as long as Tony had been training his would have similar control abilities.

Again, I don't think there's anything "secret" or "exotic" about the ripping ... any student of anatomy and sensitive areas of the body could probably work this out for themselves eventually ... but it's **** handy to have all those ideas and experience given up as a nicely presented and well detailed package.

I enjoyed the tape and found it a valuable addition to my library. I'm sure I will be looking at it again and again.

I'm not going to touch the Catch-vs-BJJ-vs-Catch straw man arguments, on the tape and this thread ... suffice to say anyone training hard in either art would develop some real skills, and since we don't have to choose why form camps and start bickering?

As for Royce vs Saku - Saku at his best was a smart, skilled gutsy fighter - he's far any away my favorite to watch of the last few years - he was definitely the better fighter on the day and made Royce look ordinary. I think the result was more to do with Saku's individual brilliance, and perhaps being underestimated by Royce, rather than any supremacy of one art over another.

[KenWingJitsu]

Well said ANdrew.