Neijia arts for combat?

[gazza99]

Hey everyone,

Lately ive really been working my butt off to compile a system of combat based techniques, drills, etc, to make the internal arts (bagua, xingyi, tai chi) into a self-defense no-nonsense format.

Ive been fortunate to find some of the very best in the world to learn from and consult. My quest is by no means over, but in the meantime I want to get this information out, as it is not widely available, especially in this context.

Visit my new site www.flowingcombat.com for more info, and let me know what you think of the site, quite an amount of hard work went into the design, and im just starting to fill in the content. There is a video demo, but more will follow shortly, ill try and make them as "real-time" as possible in the future. It should also be noted the actual DVD does have better lighting and no cheezy lightning effects! I got carried away with my new program!

I suppose a good question to the forum is this, how many people do you know of that teach the internal arts for combat only? I have only found a short list, and would like to hear about more if they are out there, so that I may learn from their experience!

regards,
Gary
www.flowingcombat.com

[Ka]

Just some freindly feedback.
I know its all about marketing but I don't think you should use terms like "never before ......" "only a handfull of people....".I know countless other componies use such strategies but I think IMA would be better without such pandering.
Just my thoughts

[Tainan Mantis]

The Chen Man Ching Taiji schools I have seen in Taiwan have a very strong combat perspective.
One local teacher spends 90% of the class on pushing and throwing.
The first day I went I joined in the pushing.

[Tainan Mantis]

gazza,
I was just loking over your add claims and noticed that you teach how to instantly KO.

I don't want to sound too wise, but I have noticed that it is hard to knock someone out.
Even if there is some sort of formula for 100% success it seems that you would have to KO a large number of people to become proficient.

So how do you do it?

[scotty1]

Have you trained with Chris M and Gary R in your area?

EDIT after looking at website: You are Gary R:D

[count]

Originally posted by gazza99
I suppose a good question to the forum is this, how many people do you know of that teach the internal arts for combat only? I have only found a short list, and would like to hear about more if they are out there, so that I may learn from their experience!

Gary,
In fact, most of the teachers I know emphasize funtion over form. It's the goals of the students that make up the majority you speak of. I know OK is a sparsly populated area and probably not that many teachers there anyway. But go to NY or LA or SF or Chi Town, and there are doezens if not hundreds of teachers. There are no less than 4 bagua, tai chi, hsing-i teachers in the neighborhood I train in alone who are more brutal and more internal than what your showing here.

I agree with meeks analogy to a monster truck rally announcer. Good effort on marketing and design but I would tone it down a bit. :cool:

[gazza99]

thanks for the feedback guys...

Ka-good advice, i got a good suggestion from an emptyflower member, and I toned down the marketing lingo, and still working it.

Tanian:"One local teacher spends 90% of the class on pushing and throwing."

Thats great! Pushing is nice, throwing is better. But if you include striking, sparring, reactive drills etc, you will be closer! (they may do this, you just didnt list it)

"but I have noticed that it is hard to knock someone out."

Really? I would then speculate you havent gained a very good " strong combat perspective" from the schools you were refereing too. In these arts its not hard to generate the power to KO someone especially if you can hit the right spot out of reaction, and have any internal power or alignment. and YES I have KO'd quite a few people "instantly". If the technique is done correctly it results in a KO, if you dont do it correctly...then its on you, but you should do enough damage nonetheless.

Count: " agree with meeks analogy to a monster truck rally announcer. Good effort on marketing and design but I would tone it down a bit."

Again good advice, Im working on it, I have a marketing rep who hyped my initial rhetoric to sell more, now im trying to tone it down, but still get people interested.

RE"But go to NY or LA or SF or Chi Town, and there are doezens if not hundreds of teachers. There are no less than 4 bagua, tai chi, hsing-i teachers in the neighborhood I train in alone who are more brutal and more internal than what your showing here"

Really? Ive been to all of those cites on a few occations, and I havent been able to find that many teachers? I may not have looked hard enough in the alleys or something! Also do they have any media available to purchase? DVD's? Books? .com address For the person who doesnt know about these "hidden" super brutal internal teachers, or like most people who wont leave home and scour the city for a teacher when they dont know what to look for? Most people get online or open the phonebook now days.

edit:- just re-read-"It's the goals of the students that make up the majority you speak of."

I think that statement speaks volumes, and could be why it would appear these teachers dont exist in larger quantities, in fact it may BE the reason that the teachers that CAN teach the combatives, simply DONT. Nor do they put out many books, DVDs, etc.. for others.


Could you do me a favor and send me the list as far as you know it? If you dont want to post it email it to me at gary@flowingcombat.com. Im not mocking you, but really, I want to know the "dozens if not hundreds of teachers" who teach Neijia combatives. These people must hide! I want to find them, as I do travel alot with the Gov. and visit whomever I can whenever I can.

regards,

G

PS: As far as internal power and brutality, im not going to be THAT brutal in a clip, nor can anyone really gauge *internal* from a clip like I put up. Of course if you note there was a few techniques that struck directly to the throat, that is semi-brutal isnt it? :)

Anyway, good feedback guys! thanks again...

[count]

So, what you have to realize is the majority of the people you are marketing to are interested in health and unaware of application and usage. Some will become more interested as they learn, others will not. The majority will not stick long enough to find out. Face it, it takes a long time and practice before usage becomes second nature and we live in a "fast food" culture that is not motivated enough to put in the work. So, the first thing you have to do in a marketing campaign is determine your who you are targeting. Think of ways to enlighten them, without insulting their intelligence or scaring them off. Be positive and ask positive questions and get positive answers. CLOSE them. If you ask me, if you are trying to increase your number of long term students, emphasize the long term benefits.

I will e-mail you one dozen teachers you might classify as "internal" that I have had personal experience with. They all have impressive fighting records as well as have trained others to be good fighters. In short, they can apply their ****. I can think of dozens more from other martial arts systems from other countries who I have met that can do the same, but I confined it to CIMA in the US. I have heard of or met many others, but will withold comment on most unless I have the opportunity to work with them. Let me know next time you are in LA and I will personally take you around and introduce you to a few.

Hint:
As far as being able to gauge in a clip, I look at the leg more than the hand to assess the skill level and effectiveness of any technique.

[Vash]

Good design, stuff looks good.

But, on the demo clip, the voice ovre kinda sounds like a goth dude telling us of the evil power of demon style martial arts.

Be happy. The cigarette-smoker's voice isn't all that conducive to martially-applicable marketing.

[No_Know]

The demo techniques at that website seemed one sided. I might think that you would want something different as you think much of your ability, given your teachers. Perhaps demonstrations with suggested likely resistance to the active~ techniques.

Wonderful workpersonship on the website. Good job.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by gazza99
I think that statement speaks volumes, and could be why it would appear these teachers dont exist in larger quantities, in fact it may BE the reason that the teachers that CAN teach the combatives, simply DONT. Nor do they put out many books, DVDs, etc.. for others.

The only teachers who don't teach combatives are the ones that can't. I haven't been out of CA for a while so I can really only say whats going on round here...

In LA Tim Cartmell is the man. He has alot of experience with many teachers and has more than proven himself, on his own, and through his students. His school is VERY combat oriented. He has a few books and videos. And his mat is open every Saturday...
Website: http://www.shenwu.com

In Fallbrook you can find the (in)famous James McNeil (he did the many Panther videos on Hsing-I) http://www.littlenineheaven.com

Kumar Frantzis is somewhere in N. CA. He really does know his stuff, but he's expensive and exclusive. He has some books out there mostly about meditation but just released one on Tai Chi, and has a Yang Tai Chi Fighting video. I know that a couple of his students run schools in CA, they're listed on his site. http:www.energyarts.com

Here in San Diego there's a few people...

Steve Martin of Sojourn Past has a good program with Water Boxing and Yang Tai Chi, and he's pretty bada**. http://www.sojournpast.com/

Mike Patterson of Hsing-I Martial Arts institute is well known for cranking out KuoShu champs, and his primary passion *IS* the combat aspects of IMA. He has many videos LOADED with application and combative strategy, and is currently writing a book about Hsing-I. I know I'm guilty of a little promo for him, as he is my teacher, but I firmly believe you would be hard pressed to find many others of his caliber, anywhere. He has many clips on his site for viewing. http://www.hsing-i.com

There is also Steve Cotter, one of Mike Pattersons former students who is also combat honed. http//:www.fullkontact.com


I want to know the "dozens if not hundreds of teachers" who teach Neijia combatives.


See the teacher's directories on emptyflower and hsing-i.com. Enough listings to keep you busy, anyways....

http://www.hsing-i.com/teachers/index.html
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/teachers.html

[backbreaker]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28785

I think someone mentioned the real internal on the above thread.

I think count is correct

[gazza99]

Thanks QuaiJohnCain, actually I have seen instructional videos from everyone you mentioned except for the two "steves" , in fact if you take note the person I did the demo on was Tim Cartmells senior in Baguazhang -Marcus Brinkman (who was nice enough to volunteer), he is an Excellent bagua teacher as well!

Mcneil and Kumar....ill hold my tongue.

Patterson? I have two of his tapes and do like them, I admit I liked Wai Lun Chois five fists better, but he is very senior to Patterson, there is also a guy in town who learned xingyi from that lingeage with whom I trade info with.

Vash: Thanks, you are right, im reworking the audio :)


G

[Walter Joyce]

Don't forget Bernie Langan at:

http://www.stillnessinmotion.com/


I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss Kumar skill wise, at least not until he is one of the attackers you say you can stop with your methods.

He may be a ****, but he knows his stuff.

[SPJ]

I visited the site. I enjoyed it very much. It is a challeging idea to merge Tai Ji, Ba Gua, and Xing Yi.
Tai Ji is insistent on the use of a small force to merge into a big force. You listen to the direction of the opponent's Jin, follow and redirect. (Zhang Nien Suei)
It is like a surfer get a ride on a surging wave. You approach the force from the side and never head on. No opposing, No losing contact. (Bu Deow, Bu Ding)

Ba Gua is insistent to walk as a defense. (Yi Zhou Wei Yong). You push the opponent chest from the side. (Xie Zu Zhen Lu)

Xing Yi is Pi, Bun, Zhuan, Pao, Heng. Your defense is from moving a step back and using the force from other direction to neutralize the opponent's force. Your offense is by moving a step forward with your own attack.

If you are following these main ideas, your system have the three.

For more info, please refer to the book "The treasure book of Chinese martial arts" www.authorhouse.com

Humbly yours;

Chinese martial arts are all about fighting. There is no waste of time. They call the systems Nei Jia. It is because it requires more skills, more practice, more balance, and more precisions. It is because Nei Jia is under cover, It is difficult to see how it works. In contrast, there more punches and kicks for Wai Jia. It is easier to see how it works on the outside.

[Ray Pina]

Nice foundation to start off with:

Would like to see more live play! Throw on some gloves and have the same guy really try to get you.

The present generation of upcoming MA are fueled by UFC, K-1, they want to see real stuff working against real stuff.

Also, my master does not teach form, and we're training to be beaters of men, but at the same time health is of equal, if not more, importance than fighting. These are internal systems, they go hand in hand.

You can check his website, I have it below in my sig. Also, as other's said, I'd be careful about certain claims. You have no idea what's out there and who knows what. And I'm believing at some point in time, when the next generation of students truly get their master's technique down, some sort of "There can be only one" will go down.

Best of luck to you.

[tokf]

Greetings Gary,

Nice site, I'm a cynical Brit so the marketing rhetoric amuses more than impresses, but I'm in the wrong country to be your market ;-)

I've watched vids from your old site before and never have been in doubt of your obvious skill but I am interested in your syllabus.

The school I am a student of is very combat orientated and involves Sil Lum Pai, Wing Chung and original Chen old frame, however after three years I am now just learning the Chen Form and specific applications (plus the ones I need come up with), this is standard for the syllabus although from the start apps are taught as apps not as specific styles, so a Sil Lum app can be almost the same as a Chen app, you just don't know it at the time!

Starting the form (and specific apps) after three years of fitness/syllabus requirements has given me a strong foundation and progress will be quick, along with the most enjoyable beginnings of chi flow, sinking/rooting/meditation etc. but how do your students learn that by going straight into the applications? Do you teach forms/standing post/breathing etc? If not is not what you do external expressions of internal techniques?

I do not want to cause offence (I'm not saying the above question is a bad thing) and hope I have not, I'm impressed with what I've seen (I'm just a beginner) and just simply intrigued by your methods.

Best regards
tokf

[gazza99]

:Nice site, I'm a cynical Brit so the marketing rhetoric amuses more than impresses, but I'm in the wrong country to be your market ;-) "

lol, yeah, I have since toned down the marketting lingo. I also have a new expanded demo clip, with a new less hypey voice over, there are more applications shown for anyone who wants to look.

www.flowingcombat.com


"I've watched vids from your old site before and never have been in doubt of your obvious skill but I am interested in your syllabus"

Ahh, excellent, thanks for the compliment.



"Starting the form (and specific apps) after three years of fitness/syllabus requirements has given me a strong foundation and progress will be quick, along with the most enjoyable beginnings of chi flow, sinking/rooting/meditation etc. but how do your students learn that by going straight into the applications? Do you teach forms/standing post/breathing etc? If not is not what you do external expressions of internal techniques? "

Good question, the answer is simpler than you may think, Of course standing practice is included and taught up front, any applications are done first in slow motion just like the form, the nuances of silk reeling, sinking/rooting, body connections, opening/closeing..etc. are all explored before the technique is brought to full speed or with any contact. This gives the student a more direct context to practice their internal principles and mechanics with. Then once the "form" of the application or principle is gotten down it is applied in two person drills, and increased to a reactive full speed and power level. Of course the form is also covered, but slowly, with quality over quantity. Any of my students who can do the first third of the Old Yang form correctly can also fight at full speed with basic taiji principles intact.

"I do not want to cause offence (I'm not saying the above question is a bad thing) and hope I have not, I'm impressed with what I've seen (I'm just a beginner) and just simply intrigued by your methods"

No offense taken at all, in fact its a commen question and dilema amonst instructors as to what to teach when, and why. I am just finishing up an article outlining bascially what I do and why for the new site. I will post it here shortly for you to read also.

regards,

Gary

PS: A bit ago I sent a DVD to somone in the UK? Was that you? If not, I suggest you order it, details are on the website (shipping is only $5) , it has some really good foundational stuff, and is really comprehensive with mechanics. The rest of the series is going to address the taiji powers and movements/applications that work on those principles (and some from xingyi, bagua eventually) direcly in a combative context, along with some extra goodies to make people good and dangerous!

[Ford Prefect]

You have a demo of you guys sparring?

[brassmonkey]

what's your definition of "combat"?

[tokf]

Gary

Many thanks for the reply, you've actually not only answered my question rather well but the more I progress in my syllabus I can look back and realise thee same principles are taught. Starting the form three years into training suddenly makes me clarify the apps I've been doing. I find myself saying 'aah, so that's roll back or ward off, it's the same as what we do in this app etc'. When the app is labelled as a Sil Lum Pai app or dare I say it , a wing chung move (but that's a whole different debate!)

Peace.

[tokf]

Gary

Many thanks for the reply, you've actually not only answered my question rather well but the more I progress in my syllabus I can look back and realise thee same principles are taught. Starting the form three years into training suddenly makes me clarify the apps I've been doing. I find myself saying 'aah, so that's roll back or ward off, it's the same as what we do in this app etc'. When the app is labelled as a Sil Lum Pai app or dare I say it , a wing chung move (but that's a whole different debate!)

Oh, it wasn't me that ordered the CD but I'll certainly check it out on you site.

Peace.