Question for the William Cheung people.

[phantom]

I have heard that William Cheung's iron palm liniment is a mixture of alcohol and vinegar base. Many people have told me that vinegar makes for a poor quality jow. It also does not mix with alcohol well. However, William Cheung and his students who have opened their own schools all seem to be pretty healthy to me. So is Master Cheung's liniment really good for iron palm training? I have the utmost respect for Master Cheung, and I think his version of wing chun is one of the best for self-defense. I hope I have the opportunity to study his style myself someday.I wish him and his students the best of luck in all of their endeavors. Thanks in advance.

[Phil Redmond]

Myself and at least 5 other people I know have been using the Iron Palm formula for a long time with no ill affects. The formula doesn't use hard liquor with the vinegar.

[anerlich]

I've not seen any healthy student suffer any permanent or severe adverse effects from it, but I had a sihing who found the iron palm programme quite exhausting, though he did complete it with some help from GM Cheung and my Sifu.

Iron Palm is not just a jow in TWC, it is a fairly arduous programme which requires a fair amount of commitment. It would be advisable to seek competent guidance before embarking on it.

My Sifu quotes an old saying: "Iron Palm drives you mad".

My 2c.

[S.Teebas]

My Sifu quotes an old saying: "Iron Palm drives you mad".

In what way does it drive you mad? ..and what causes that?

[anerlich]

It is a saying, not a statement of scientific fact, and I doubt there's any scientific study to back it up - though where CMA and TCM are concerned there are too few of those anyway IMO.

Having not done the full programme - I err on the side of caution with the more exotic practices (I wouldn't dream of doing it unless I were training full time), and prefer to rely on developing skill rather than biochemically altering my physiology, and being reliant on such alteration to have an edge - I am getting this second hand, but:

The program involves:

*Repetitive*

and somewhat

*prolonged*

striking of bags of various hardness and fillings, and other not dissimilar practices, leading to moderate amounts of

*Pain*

plus soaking in and absorbing

*powerful herbal medicine*

Put the words in asterisks together, and consider the motivation for undertaking such a program, you do not end up with a recipe for stability if a trainee may be unstable at the start. If most MA practitioners are slightly nuts to begin with, you can join the dots.

Iron palm training does toughen the bones in the hands, but it can also make them more brittle. My Sifu did a sh*tload or iron palm prior to his fights in HK in 1982, but still broke his hand in the semifinal and then fought/won the final with a broken hand.

From what I've seen (not a huge amount, but enough) the TWC program is not radically different to many others, e.g. that espoused in the old book "Iron Palms in 100 Days". It does have its own jow formulae and certain specifics, though.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by anerlich
I've not seen any healthy student suffer any permanent or severe adverse effects from it, but I had a sihing who found the iron palm programme quite exhausting, though he did complete it with some help from GM Cheung and my Sifu.

Iron Palm is not just a jow in TWC, it is a fairly arduous programme which requires a fair amount of commitment. It would be advisable to seek competent guidance before embarking on it.

My Sifu quotes an old saying: "Iron Palm drives you mad".

Many formulae for jow contain cinnabar as an ingredient. The Mercury content can cause dementia.

Hat making in the past used Mercury in preparation of felt, which led to the expression, "Mad as a hatter."

Regards,

[namron]

I have done the iron palm course many moons ago in the early to nineties when I was about 3 years into training TWC.

The mixture is pretty simple from what I remember, basically white wine and vinegar solution with the herb bag and heat up.

Boy did my hands smell like crap afterwards, if you do the course your friends will smell you coming a mile away?

My hands also began to stain slightly due to the herbal concoction.

The training itself is pretty repetative, it basically builds on a series of short range palm strikes increasing the conditioning level as the course proceeds. As others have mentioned it takes a great deal of commitment and can be very boring palm striking a sand bag every day for an hour.

The results were pretty good mostly wrt short range power. One of the thing that I recall the most is that there was a significant increase in blocking power with gum/pac and jut type blocks, which tended to injure training partners who were not conditioned (particularly when training counters vs kick attacks).

The bad points were:
1. that you were supposed to keep training the rountine at least once a week after you finished the course, which I couldnt keep up.
and
2. there was a high potential to injure the rear or outward side of your hand during the conditioning exercise. This was a very common injury where people broke one of the fine bones (metacarpal) in the back of the hand and could not continue. I was always suspect on conditioning the back of the hand particlarly given its fine bone structure.

Oh and if your going to do the course make sure you get a quality (stainless or cast iron) pot for the herbal brew, because its very acidic. I know this after it ate through my first aluminium pot in a matter of weeks. Not a smell you will enjoy in your carpet!