What degree of risk are you willing to take in training?

[kj]

Expanding a little on my earlier inquiry of the "Ultimate Martial Artist" vs. the "Pratical Martial Artist." The catch phrase is admittedly a bit of a misnomer and the categories overgeneralized. Nonetheless, it's an attempt to explore with you all the differences in perspectives, needs, interests and experiences of those who come to practice Wing Chun and martial arts more generally.

Some people's focus seems to be about "realistic fighting" at almost any risk, while others appear to emphasize more measured approaches to training that manage risk in varying degrees.

If you are not willing to take a lot of risk, what are your thoughts and reasoning on this?

If you are willing to take greater risks, what makes it worth it?

In other words, what's your tipping point and why?

[Vash]

Truthfully, before my black belt testing last year, I'd never given much thought to sparring-related injuries. Well, I've been down for a year, and I have to say, my thinking in regards to sparring has certainly changed.

I'm now more focused on bringing my sparring up to par with form-based techniques as opposed to kicky-punchy stuff. Aside from that, I'm going to be just as cautios as I was before. We fight full-contact, but not usually @ 100% power. Hopefully, my little training adjustment will save me future problems.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Kathy Jo:

Taking CALCULATED RISKS is the key to the whole subject, IMO. If you don't risk taking some pain, bruises, twisted ankles, occasional loss of breath because you were hit in the solar plexus/ the occasional shock of getting hit hard in the head (hopefully while wearing a protective helmet with a front cage)...the occasional moderate shot to the face/head with no gloves or helmet during light sparring or chi sao/ moderate kicks to the body (again - using a chest protector for the body kicks and heavy punches)/ using shin and knee pads and then kicking fairly hard to the legs - (but always being careful not to do a heavy kick - like a sidekick - angled to the side or back of the knee joint)...

If you're not willing to be thrown to the floor occasionally (on mats of course)/not willing to feel the pain of various submission holds...

Without these calculated risks that produce bumps, bruises, and pain...but hopefully no serious injuries...

YOU'RE ONLY KIDDING YOURSELF...if you think that you're actually learning how to fight - and are ready to fight - if you really had to defend yourself or a loved one.

Being able to go on even though you've been "hurt" by the opponent is an absolutely ESSENTIAL ingredient in the art of self defense. The old cliche: "no pain, no gain"....is true.

I say this to you with all due respect.

[Ernie]

now the definition of fighting comes into play

are you going out and getting in street fights with people who may or may not know how to fight

won't get much out of that except street experience and mindset but in the end that can make the difference

i think it's better to progressively work your way up , everything should be pressure tested

90% progessive training
10% hardcore all out sparring with some light gear

to much hard core makes you sloppy and yes injuries will pile like crazy

no hard core well you never really find out what it feels like mentally and physically
you need to learn to adjust to those situations

even the pro level coaches i work off have changed there views on hardcoring everything
the thought now is you don't need to hard core to develop the skill but with out the hard core you won't really what skill is and how to use it under the gun

kathy great post but it comes back to that dry land swimming thing
any way just woke up sorry if my thoughts are jumbled

[AndrewS]

Pressure is necessary.

Injuries can occur under pressure.

Risk of injury should be minimized by training under pressure at the appropriate point in your periodized training plan, based on your life at the time (sparring full contact all ranges after having been awake for 36 hrs on your squat day is bad idea. Trust me. Really.).

Risk is best minimized in fullcontact training by keeping rounds short with nice rest intervals. It escalates as fatigue accumulates (longer rounds, shorter rest intervals), especially if both players are fatigues (hence it's safer to get cooked by a few fresh guys than do 10 rounds with a buddy).

Bruises, split lips, black eyes, cauliflowered ears- these should not be considered injuries. They are just things that happen, and while they shouldn't occur often, you should be sufficiently inured to impact that their occurance doesn't change your flow as they occur.

Joint injuries are to be avoided at all costs. The risk/reward equation is too high, IMO. Tap early on the floor, and be careful with ballistic standing joint manipulations- you should have a good feel for your partner at the time they're attempted before trying to pull these off.

Concussions and k.o.'s should be occasional. More than every few months is too much, IMO.

I'm with Ernie on the 90/10 split.

Later,

Andrew

[KingMonkey]

Hee hee

Well there's no point in getting the crap between out of you twice a week in training just so you are less likely to get the crap beaten out of you on a Saturday night, unless you enjoy this exercise for it's own sake of course.

However as previously mentioned if you're not training against live real resistance at least some of the time you're kidding yourself.

I would make the distinction though between the likelihood of real injury and the likelihood of mental and physical discomfort.

I think the mental discomfort is a big factor for those who have been training for a long time and progressed through a system without live training.

Humans tend to have a skewed view of risk.
Even those in the WC world who are scared of more hardcore training take a greater risk of serious injury every time they drive to class than they would do by throwing in 10 mins of 90% full on fighting with some simple protective equipment.

I read an article once about primal reactions that are still hardcoded into our brains long after they stopped making sense.
A good example would be fear of spiders.

Apparently given enough time people will be having phobias about hairdryers and other electrical equipment being placed precariously near a bath or driving without a seat belt.
Things that currently represent a far greater likelihood of injury/death.

Anyway I digress....

To answer the question I certainly try and avoid anything which might lead to a serious debilitating injury but a few bumps and bruises are all part of the fun.

[TjD]

personally, i agree if you never actually fight (or spar or whatever) you'll never really have a good picture of what you're training for.

however, in real life situations i think actually being in a real live fight is almost totally avoidable.

just don't be in the wrong kind of places, don't run your mouth, and suck up your pride and back down if you have to. i think 99.99999% of fights can be avoided with those 3 easy steps.

so out of the kwoon/ring i think fights are pretty much unnessecary. however in the kwoon/ring if you want your WC to be good you'll have to spar/fight people. not just other WCers :D

[PaulH]

Calculated risks makes you feel less stupid when injury happens and it will. Once I horseplayed with a big Mac and he sent me to the hospital for a major knee surgery. I learn since that I really can't afford such risky business again.

Regards,
PH

[Ernie]

this reminds me of what my friend howard said after a training injury were he had to go to the hospital and get a few stitices
[[ dude it happens it's not like were learing ballet , it's fighting for gods sake]]

[PaulH]

Ernie,

True. I was preferring to training with an intelligent human vs. a dumb animal however. In my case, Mac is not too bright to know when to stop. Ha! Ha!

Regards,
PH

[kungfu cowboy]

I draw the line at spontaneous human combustion.

[kj]

For lack of ticking a simple check box, I messed up the poll, and don't have edit rights to fix it. <argh> The poll responses are not mutually exclusive, so my apologies for that slip up.

These inquiries are sincere and non-judgmental. I know there is a greater diversity in perspectives out there. So hoping even more of you folks will continue to chime in on these threads in an effort to better explore the subject.

For those who'd like to play along, and don't mind discussing non-anonymously, I'll post the poll questions here again for your convenience or for quoting:


The only way to learn how to fight is to fight.
I am willing to take almost any risk in training in order to improve my fighting skills.
I am willing to take moderate or calculated risks in training in order to improve my fighting skills.
It is more important to me to be careful in training, rather than to take unnecessary risks.
You can't learn how to fight without fighting.
Those who fight may do better faster, but anyone who dedicates themselves to training can still improve significantly.
Fighting isn't as important as it's made out to be.
I think it's wrong to fight when it's unnecessary.
It's never necessary to fight.
You can't be a serious martial artist if you're concerned about training risks.


I'll check back in and catch up with you all more later. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[sticky fingers]

Doesn't 1 and 5 mean exactly the same thing??

[kj]

Originally posted by sticky fingers
Doesn't 1 and 5 mean exactly the same thing??

Ha ha - that was so that people who feel vehemently about it can vote twice. :D

Regards,
- kj

[Gangsterfist]

KJ-

Good topic of discussion. For me training hard definately pays off the most, but there are always exceptions. Reducing the risk of major injury is always the right idea. Getting a broken nose, black eye, brusies and bumps are minor and all can heal in time. My sifu has had his ribs broken while sparring heavily before. One important attribute you will gain from this is self knowledge of what you can take.

For example we were sparring last week in class. One of my seniors snaked his fist through my arms after I trapped him up and popped me good right in the mouth. I was not even stunned, the second it made contact I slammed him on the ground and started to choke him out (later he reversed it and pretty much ended up beating me). Knowing that I can fight through basic attacks like that is a good sign to me. If someone breaks your nose can you get right back up and fight through it, or are you finished?

Have you ever been hurt and saw that white flash for a nanosecond then the pain immediately sets in? Can you fight past that white flash? I can sometimes and have before.

If you do not have realistic combat training (like heavy sparring, with hard contact in a controlled enviroment so no major injuries occur) then I do not believe your kung fu could with stand that many real fights. Know your limits, it makes you a better fighter. If you know for a fact you cannot win up front from knowing your limits and walk away unscathed, then that is good kung fu.

Conditioning is also a factor that must be taken seriously to be able to apply one's martial knowledge in an effective manner in real life. I work out and do endurance training, trust me it helps. I also started doing some iron palm training and one of my sihings just commented to me the other day about how he didn't like punching me anymore becuase whenever I block it with taan, jom, biu, or juts it hurts his arm, even when we are doing drills. That made me feel better about my training lately. That was just from conditioning my arms, which was really not that hard to do.

To answer your question in my own view its to train the following philosophy:

-You will get hit in class and it will hurt, but you will live, and getting hit in class is much better than getting hit on the streets.

-always be safe when it comes to breaking bones and dislocating joints, eye gouging, etc. those can be "career ending" injuries

-There is always risk involved, if you don't like that then don't train

-always respect sifu, and your fellow brothers/sisters/uncles/grand masters/etc and respect the kwoon. You need these things to balance out your training.

-Taking hits is a necessity at one point or another, its part of kung fu.

-fighting is not the best option to settle things, but sometimes you have to fight and I would much rather be prepared with realistic training over theory training

I have one question for you KJ. Since you are a woman, what are you views of training in general? I know we attack the groin when we train. This always reminds you that you can strike the groin to get out of certain situations, and it also reminds you that it hurts so keep your groin guarded. We have a few females that comes to class from time to time and I always feel awkard sparring and doing drills with them. Sometimes I have to grab them or trap them in akward positions. I don't give them any special treatment and treat them as equals. None of them have ever complained that I am too rough, or they feel uncomfortable that I am trapping them or grappling them in akward positions. But, then again they may never speak up. We do train all aspects of fighting when sparring so ground fighting comes into play. I grab a guys groin if I am in a real comprimised position and they present the strike to me, but I never strike a girl in the groin because it just seems wrong. So I guess I do give them special treatment in that way.

What are your views about realistic training with the opposite sex? Do you ever feel uncomfortable?

[kj]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
What are your views about realistic training with the opposite sex? Do you ever feel uncomfortable?

I guess it depends on what we mean here by "realistic training." Assuming from your description that you are talking more about groin and breast contact, just like everything else - it all depends.

In a mature training environment, it really shouldn't matter. Mutual trust is obviously an important element, as is appropriate communication about the subject.

In my classes, it is commonplace and appropriate for any of us to be hit or contacted anywhere. That's just life, and in training it happens. For those who are new or aren't used to it, I try to my part to help them be so. I find that people are generally able to "get over it" in a mature, trusting, and supportive environment. The good news is that these too are learned and transferrable skills (e.g., to non-supportive environments, like "real fights.")

At the same time, permission is what happens in context of training, not a license for a grope-fest-free-for-all.

On that note, I have, unfortunately, been in the presence of a bona fide groper in the training hall. Trust me, that's very different. (FWIW, I understand he is behind bars now for a number of serious sexual offenses.) It's healthy to understand that not everyone is mature, and not everyone is to be trusted.

Having said all of this, it's also important to understand that not all women or all men will interpret contact in the same way. Same for their spouses or SO's - not an altogether frivolous consideration. Again, communication is key, along with consideration of the uniqueness of your training partner and the training environment.

Some of my thoughts, anyway.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Gangsterfist]

I agree it is all about communication. I feel comfortable if my female training partner feels comfortable. If the female doesn't like being grappled or struck in certain areas then it makes me feel kinda uncomfortable.

Its not like we sit there and kick each other in the groin all day to see who can take the most pain. In certain situations if the strike presents itself I take it, but of course never trying to seriously hurt anyone.

If I ever saw anyone groping any women in our class I would immediately beat the ever loving crap out of them, unless the groping was conscented. Then I would tell them to go get a room.

Women training with us is a funny thing because they are all so different. One woman doesn't like getting hit and always says go easy on me because she's a girl. Then OTH we have other girls who are frankly more tough than some of the guys and want to spar full contact and all that jazz. Men in my class seem to be more static we all kind of agree on the same levels of training and contact.

So it all comes down to respect for your sifu, fellow classmates, the kwoon and communication.

[Vash]

Tell you something that made me uncomfortable. I was teaching the kid's class, and sensei wanted us to go over some of the BJJ we had been shown last week. But, I am not the best guy to demonstrate this, so I had to have my ex-girlfriend demonstrate the technique. On me. From the mounted position.

[kj]

Well, given the limited choices, here are my closest poll picks:


I am willing to take moderate or calculated risks in training in order to improve my fighting skills.
Those who fight may do better faster, but anyone who dedicates themselves to training can still improve significantly.
Fighting isn't as important as it's made out to be.
I think it's wrong to fight when it's unnecessary.


Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[AndrewS]

Hey Kathy,

'moderate or calculated' is the kicker.

All risks I take are calculated. I will accept small chances of great damage, moderate chances of certain injuries, and a certainty of other injuries.

By the same token, I know that the contact level and risk level which I'm comfortable with is far higher than most people I've encountered in Wing Chun.

Andrew