NP - What forms do you know?

[red5angel]

That's it, just wondering....

[norther practitioner]

A bunch...

oh, and I've added a lot of postures to a few... there out of the karma sutra, your girl showed them to me.


Or were you serious?

[red5angel]

LOL! remind me to kick your ass later....

yeah I was serious.

[norther practitioner]

A bunch of basic wushu...

yi chuan
su chuan

A "b" level chang chuan routine

Traditional Northern Long fist:
Pao chuan 1
Yi lu mei fu
damu chuan
A ten line tan tui

soon to learn
Pao chuan 2
plus some other "cool stuff"

Weapons:
intermediat straight sword
beginner sabre
Another Sabre that we call Shaolin Sabre
Fan

Soon to learn:
An emei straightsword
Kwan Dao
three section staff
relearn taiji 32 straight sword

Taiji:
A basic 13 posture form
The 24 form
and a competition form choreographed for me... it has a bunch of peices from the long form in there.

[red5angel]

What are the english translations of the longfist forms?

[norther practitioner]

Pao chuan is cannon fist boxing.

Yi lu mei fu is fist ambush fist

tan tui is spring leg

damu chuan is named after damo.. It's just spelled that way because the guy who taught it to my teacher didn't speak english... but thought he did.

[red5angel]

if I said "shaolin routines" or Prayer Post, Whirlie Bird, would that make any sense to you?

[norther practitioner]

I call my finishing move the whirlie bird :D but thats getting off topic again....

whirlie bird.. is that like willy arms (don't know the technical name). but when the arms swim back, then you turn and they swim foward?

as far as prayer post, thats what I call most of your posts when you reffer to my girl :D

shaolin routines.. like forms or like drills?

[red5angel]

I'm so going to crush you, then crush your girls ass.....


whirlie bird, yep, that's what I know it as.

So far I am learning this shaolin longfist stuff, and have been taught some "short forms" and two "long forms" (your girl calls me that too but that is a different story).
I have also started learning something called shaolin routines but they may just them that because they also teach wushu at the school. I think there are 12 of them or something like that and they generally consider them a warm up.

[KC Elbows]

I'll bet those shaolin routines are what one teacher I met referred to as something like "zoo hui", at least that's what it sounded like. Little drills with a shaolin flavor, right?

[norther practitioner]

These routines, if I'm thinking of them correctly, usually vary from school to school...
I know a bunch, like the three star drill (a few different versions, one of which I learned from StarChaser107)
which are conditioning drills where you smash your forarms with someone else. And general exercises, that some call "shaolin"...

stance drills
kicking drills
short forms
conditioning excersises
external gongs

etc.

seven star kicking dance is another favorite of mine... short kicking form

fan kick to high back leg front kick to jump front snap to spinning inside crecent to outside cresent to iron broom sweep to side kick.

[red5angel]

possibly KC, I just started the shaolin stuff about a month ago so am not real familiar with it. The first shoalin routine, the only one I know at the moment, is about 30 moves or so. The thing I'm starting to understand is that just because it's called "shaolin" doesn't mean it has a whole lot of relation to other things also called "shaolin".
Don't get me wrong, I trust the guy is for real, he has a good and verifiable background, and he has taught me a few things in sparring taht have helped. Just trying to get some perspective.

[norther practitioner]

Would you like to explain the one that you know... just as in the general concept, and what you think it might be working on?

[red5angel]

I have been learning something called a 5 star drill they also used to warm up with from time to time.

Hmmm, let's see if I can do this -

the "whirlie bird" short form is simple - cross your fist in front of your chest, arms smoothly curved, then open your arms and simultaneously step back into a side eagle? stance - arms out but still slightly curved, palms out. Swing the back hand down and out in front of you and up, the other hand stays opposite the back hand and spins as well. on the up swing with the backhand you turn so your hands switch to the other sides of your body respectively. Slap the ground with the one hand (same hand that is the backhand when you do side eagle, then reverse the spin and bring your right hand down in a fist to slap your open left palm. That's it, takes about 3 seconds or so to get through it.

The Payer Post - Hands shoot up and cross above your head then come down, arms extended to the sides. At the same time you sit in a horse and bring your hands up to "praying" position. Kick with the right leg, heel kick and palm out - block with the laft arm. Swing the right hand back and up and over and as you sit into another horse stance you hammer strike with that right fist into your open left hand. Then you shoot to a bow stance on the right (right knee out) with a left hand punch, stand up, bringing your left leg up so that the toes rest on the back of your right knee and punch with your right hand. Drop back to horse and punch with your left, then punch with your right hand and drop to a sort of modified bow/side eagle stance.

[norther practitioner]

Yeah, the first one I know... they do it in a lot of chang chuan (wushu routines)...

The second one sounds like a simple warm up/ stance drill/ punching drill/ short form. Don't know that one, but we do one sort of similar.

[red5angel]

I'm sure most of this would be recognizeable to you if I did it. Unfortunately the power I generate by doing them is too much for you fragile humans so I have to do them alone. Or atleast I have a hard time describing them in text.

[norther practitioner]

Right on, we'll have to exchange (more than just blows) when you get your arse down here.

[red5angel]

sounds like a plan, although you'll have to ask your girl if you can trade blows with her since she planned on trading them with me ;)

[norther practitioner]

I thought I told you..

but maybe I can find a crazy Vietnamese girl around to stalk you while you're here.

[red5angel]

if you're lucky I might drag her along with...see I get to go home when it's all said and done, and I live out of state!

[norther practitioner]

lol,
right on.

We'll have to work something out.

What else have you started learning in your new class? Who is the teacher/sifu/shirfu/master?

[red5angel]

his name is Paul Fendos, he has a long background in Korean TKD and spent a ton of time in Asia training for TKD, then later Shaolin Kungfu and eventually wushu.

Here's a list of some of the forms:

First Path of Northern Fist
Second Path of Northern Fist
Third Path of Northern Fist
Northern Fist of Driving Light
Sixth Path of Short Punch
Fourth Path of Northern Fist
Northern Fist Competition Routine


They have really been working my kicks. I don't come from a strong kicking background and my kicks are deadly and terrible, mostly terrible. What a lot of it has done is really help with flexibility and body co-ordination. We also do some sparring from time to time but then his TKD background kicks in so they mostly do point type sparring. They are looking at getting into Sanshou here very soon and that would be pretty cool.

[norther practitioner]

Does the first path form look like the Yiduan form here (http://www.jiayo.com/videos/index.html)

[red5angel]

actually I think it does. I know those first few moves look a lot like the first long form I just recently learned. Our stances are deeper, and they keep telling me to put more "substance" behind my strikes.

[red5angel]

actually "Erduan" looks familiar too.

[norther practitioner]

substance usually means waste. or more rotation in general...

after the kick and punch you set your heel then twist and punch, the power comes from the twist, don't just step down into a horse stance.

[red5angel]

yep, that's it hehe, how many times a night do I get to hear that!! For some reason, with all the stretching out it's taken me time to get that hip into it but it's coming slowly. The dynamics are different then when your body isn't so stretched out.

I have started putting some of the stuff into my shadow boxing though and it's starting to get comfortable.

[norther practitioner]

yeah, the concept of that last punch is scarely similar to a boxer's jab.

[norther practitioner]

We skip er and san in my school, go to su (skip two and three go to four).

I've done both of those forms, with small variations.

[red5angel]

yeah, I've really started to realise there is a lot of cross over in the mechanics. Like I said on another thread, the human body can only do so many things and somehting will follow others because of that.

Do you guys do regular sparring at your school?

[norther practitioner]

Do you guys do regular sparring at your school?

Not currently... we moved into this hippy massage/yoga/meditation place... Plus, I'm trying to get to a certain point with the forms and with the taiji, so I do a little here and there, but not as much as 1 I should or 2 I did.

I'm competing in forms only in KC and prob in Taiji Legacy again this year. After that, I'll get into sparring again big time. But for now it is forms and two person drills.

[red5angel]

I'm going to go watch this school compete here soon. They have some adults in forms and some kids in sparring at the moment. I'm hoping to be able to get into some more open format sparring through them in the next year, we'll see. I could never compete in the forms I don't have the physique for it.

[norther practitioner]

don't have the physique for it.

Dude, when I started I weighed in around 225...

Oh, I'm only like 5'8"

and I still weigh around 180.

[red5angel]

I'm 200lb but losing fast, my goal is 185, too much muscle mass to get any lower I think. At 5'10" that means I have 2 inches on you and about 20 lbs so you better start working out, or atleast get some good running shoes!!!!

[norther practitioner]

My teacher is 6'4" and around 210...

He and I used to spar once in a while... I'm used to being the small guy.

[red5angel]

I can take him. The bigger they are the harder they fall or something.

[norther practitioner]

Not that he's accomplished or anything...:D


Have fun in that LF/Shaolin/non wing chun class.

[red5angel]

have a good night man!

[norther practitioner]

Word... I should get something done before I go home.

How often you doing that class?

[red5angel]

at the moment my wife is in Arizona for two months so I am doing it 4-5 times a week. When she gets back I may have to kick it back to about 2-3 times a week.
However, I am pushing myself to do more at home so when I don't go into class I am doing an hour at home, plus some conditioning and weights.
When she gets back I imagine I will still be able to do that.

[norther practitioner]

Right on, I'm in class 3 times a week, work out ~2-3 times a week, plus I practice forms with another student thats been there for a while 1-2 times a week (more around competitions). Plus I get privates 2-4 times a month

[red5angel]

currently the classes are small, usually only about 3-4 people in a night. Some nights I walk in and I am the only one there so my one to one training is sort of built in.

[sakko]

er, not to intrude, but regarding the original question of the post, I am sooo confused :(

I have problems understanding the names of the forms my sifu teaches. So do other students apparently, since they seem to pronounce them differently depending on who you talk to. Forget about trying to type them, saying them is bad enough.

My school sposedly teaches Northern Long Fist and Praying Mantis. An example of wacky form names is one of our forms: Wushu. I always thought Wushu meant "Chinese Martial Arts". I've also seen stuff on wushu being a competitive sport. How could it be also the name of a form? I just don't get it, and I'm afraid to ask since of course I don't speak chinese and would probably look like a moron.

I would love to know the spelling and meaning of all the forms I do and am learning, so I can relate to more material here and in text. Also so I don't get to blackbelt someday and realize I don't know a **** thing about the forms I'm actually performing :( Right now I'm yellow belt so I'm allowed to be a ******* :D

[Ralphie]

Don't want to jinx this thread, but this is an actual discussion on forms and kung fu without the criticism of the self aggrandized "mma" guys...pretty cool.

[Shaolinlueb]

NP

who is your teacher and where di he learn from if you dont mind answering?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by sakko
My school sposedly teaches Northern Long Fist and Praying Mantis. An example of wacky form names is one of our forms: Wushu. I always thought Wushu meant "Chinese Martial Arts". I've also seen stuff on wushu being a competitive sport. How could it be also the name of a form? I just don't get it, and I'm afraid to ask since of course I don't speak chinese and would probably look like a moron.
D Wushu means "Martial Arts."

It is also the name of Bak Sil Lum form #5, or Mo I, but I'm not sure why it's a different word. Is Mo I southern for wushu?

[red5angel]

Sakko, I think some of your confusion is something hat will be resolved over time. You have 2 languages and 2 dialects to deal with - Cantonese, Mandarin and English. Some things can be confusing between the dialects, and some people don't even bother learning the chinese names, or create their own. English translations tend to be loose at best. As for one word covering several different topics, it happens all the time in the martial arts world. Not only that but you can get into the real nuances, for example, I know basically what a phoenix eye fist is, but I 've seen it done, essentially in three different ways, although they are all called phoenix eye fist.

[norther practitioner]

When I said wushu before.. It was in reference to several forms we were discussing. They are concidered beginner wushu forms, we do them at my school, but with more of a "traditional" twist. Not just doing them flowery, but keeping the apps in there, ect.

Lueb:
My teacher has learned from a great deal of people. He has learned in Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, China, etc. I could go on for a while with whom he's done what with, but I don't remember all the details. I know he spent a stint in Taiwan, and went to a "judging and teaching" school for a while, I'm sure he picked up a bunch of stuff there.



there is a short bio here. (http://www.chinwoo.com/2004tcl/workshops.htm#christopheclarke)


Don't want to jinx this thread, but this is an actual discussion on forms and kung fu without the criticism of the self aggrandized "mma" guys...pretty cool.


Word, I've been digging that too.

[MasterKiller]

NP,
So you guys are doing a seminar this year? Are you going to be involved in it?

[norther practitioner]

Yeah, I'll most likely be the dummy.

[red5angel]

actually NP, what your studying sounds frighteningly like what I am studying. From what I understand a lot of the wushu routines this guy teaches are based on shaolin longfist forms and that is basically what they teach. He says he'd teach someone actualy wushu, competition flowery stuff i fthey wanted but he prefers the more traditional stuff.

[norther practitioner]

Thats what a lot of long fist is in the US... (and that statement could have come out of my teachers mouth). Thats why when meecer kept saying most of what we were all studying was wushu, I told him he was half right, but all wrong.

[MasterKiller]

The wushu routines we teach are the PRC compulsories. They have nothing to do with our traditional sets. I only know one wushu form-- the old, old, old waxwood compulsory. It's pretty short, but loaded with applicable techniques.

[norther practitioner]

But some do MK.. thats all I'm saying. While watching a lot of old school wushu routines, especially the chang chuan, you see a good deal of real old school long fist stuff in there, granted the compulsories of today are nothing like that, but there are a lot of things from the beginner wushu sets that are absolutely identicle to the long fist that everyone does. That stuff came from something, granted they "watered it down" etc, but it still has some roots to the traditional. I'm not ever going to say to practice wushu to get gains in self defense, but I will say, that you could take the first four wushu forms (there are three of them at jiayo) and teach them as traditional, beginner forms, which in a certain respect, they are. The form I did last year in empty hands at taiji legacy was a long fist form called su chuan, the fourth long fist routine which is something a lot of wushu schools teach too. I just did mine traditionally.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
But some do MK.. thats all I'm saying. I wasn't being contrary. Just adding my perspective.

[norther practitioner]

Right on.

[SevenStar]

So tell me... How applicable are these forms techniques in real life? Do you think that by practicing forms you are becoming a better fighter? Full contact sparring and drilling is where it's at.









































































































I read Ralphie's post, and just HAD to say that... :D

[SevenStar]

Seriously though, if you have some forms questions - translations, origin and such, talk to Gene. He helped me alot when I was doing longfist.

[norther practitioner]

**** you 7*..

lol

I've got a bunch of information now... there is only one form I still need to figure out where it came from.. It is one of my teachers favorite traditional forms, but he doesn't exactly remember where it comes from.

[red5angel]

It seems liek a lot of this shaolin/wushu stuff is pretty consistant, in atht for example, it seems like most of the other guys studying wuchu/shaolin stuff also seem to know some northern preying mantis forms and even some southern forms.


Also, NP, I don't know what the problem is today but weren't you hired to entertain me? You haven't exactly been on the ball with keeping me happy today.

[norther practitioner]

Sorry man, I've been in and out of meetings all day... darn emergency projects, I don't care if that road caves in, I don't drive it.


Seriously, yeah, that has been my sentiment... there is a bunch of it out there, then every teacher has there stuff too. The praying mantis stuff I believe comes from some influences in the Nanjing school. Chin Woo, BSL, Northern Long Fist, etc, all were either influenced or had influence there (if I'm reading my facts right).

[sakko]

I'm the last person that should comment on whether forms complement hand to hand combat.

But I can say that I am better off in a fight than I was before starting kung fu. If anything the forms have built strength and stamina within me to help me fight longer.

The advanced students in our class seem to apply alot of kung fu to sparring. The younguns like myself just kinda get into a fighting stance and fling punches back and forth with a kick for good measure.

I guess it all will come in good time :/ I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a punching bag to practice punching at full strength. I've been trying to get more upper body strength with dumbbells and pushups, but a bag would be fun I think.

[David Jamieson]

well according to my detractors all my forms suck @ss and were lifted from videos or made up or ripped off out of books.

but according to people who have actually felt my kungfu, this is not so.

so, I don't know where i stand :D

If they're garbage, well I guess I'm a racoon! mmmmm garbage forms!

If they're decent, then so be it :D I can certainly tell the difference.

my fav forms these days are Yang Tai Chi long form and Wing Chuns Chum Kiu and Bak Sil Lum's Bot Bo (it's got a nifty reverse tornado kick in it that is pretty cool! and yes I learned it from a wu chi nyu video so there!) the others I got from an exchange with jmd's kungfu uncle who is a pretty cool guy and a decent training partner.

I have a whole bunch of other forms too from when i used to be at shaolin west school. I still practice em to keep em fresh. sio I guess I'm somewhere around the 20+ forms mark (including weapons) which in my opinion is too many as it is lol.

cheers

[red5angel]

well, I can honestly say that in the month I've been practicing the shaolin longfist stuff it has helped me. I have slipped in some of the techniques to my shadow boxing in the mornings - that's right, a traditional martial artist who believs it can work and practices like he wants to make it work ;)
But more so it has helped with flexibility (just ask NP's girlfriend) body co-ordination and power generation. It's been worth it.
As for sparring and all that, give it time, it will come. Do some shado boxing. If you have a bag do that as well. Try to maintain all your good habits while sparring, even at the expense of taking a shot or two, because later on that focus will pay off.

NP - **** your no typing hands for not being around to keep me from throwing myselfout the 18th floor window!! I got in at 8:30 am this morning and was done working at roughly 10:30!!!!

[norther practitioner]

It's all good man, you should get an office on a lower floor, at least that way, you can practice your break falling ala those Le Parker guys.

Ya know, I'd like to do some more forms collecting.... not to be like, I know this style, I know that style and so forth, but I think there is a lot of cross-over between the styles I'm interested in, plus I think it would be good to be well versed. On another note, I think I'm going to China this summer... :p My uncle said he'd like to go to China, and I was like sign me up, so he said cool.... oh, and he'll spring for the plane tickets.:p

[red5angel]

China?!?! your killing me here man! I'd love to go to china!!

As for collecting forms, I have enough trouble remembering the few I know already. I have to do them pretty regularly to remember them so if I started collecting forms I'd have to do forms work from about 5 am to say 4pm or so.....

[David Jamieson]

well, pretty much all southern styles fit together nicely and the northern styles seem to be that way too, however, there are marked differences in the performance of northern and southern styles.

the northern stuff i know is pretty fluidic and much more speedy and demanding while the southern stuff i know uses more power and force.

north = soft and flowing

south = hard and driving

go figure, once you put it all together you get a pretty well rounded style of it's own inside of you.

cheers

[norther practitioner]

I'd like to learn some Cha, Hua, and Songshan Shaolin forms (like there tong bei, and lohan forms). I'd also like to learn a few of the bsl and chin woo sets sooner or later, maybe a Mizong form too. Just for "fun".

Thanks KL..

no wonder red fizzles girl keeps telling me I must be from the north and still be fluent in the southern stuff.. she says while I can drive hard, I make it feel soft and flowing. Man she loves that.

[David Jamieson]

i'd be interested in learning the current iteration of big red fist and small red fist from the shaolin curriculum.

I understand they're pretty old as far as preseved shaolin forms go.

cheers

[norther practitioner]

xiao and da hong chuans.. yeah I'd like those too.:D

[sakko]

I don't bother worrying about antagonists or nay sayers... I try my best, that's all I can do. If I can't get out of a fight and I go down like a school girl, at least I went down trying :P

[Vash]

I want to get Joi Baat Seen Kuen. I'll have that about a year after I start working on it, though, so it's all good.

Then I want Tensho from Gojuryu. After that, if someone shows me a form, that thing is just getting repeated then deleted.

[norther practitioner]

Vash, just curious, why do you think it'll take you a full year to get that form down?

My first form I learned in about 10-15 classes of doing the form, now it is down to 1-2 hours a form, for just the basic choreography, and a few months for the first level techniques an dmaybe a second level or two in there as well.

[Vash]

Well, I'm going to be training intensly on my Isshinryu sets. I have two or three I really work on, but those take the majority of my technique time.

Since I'm not going to be getting this set, the CLF Drunken Form, from an actual instructor, I want to be methodical in my training of it. I think there is a hella lot of applicable info in the form, and I want to really absorb it. Don't want it to just look good, as stuff from videos can end up doing, but I want to be able to use it. And, I think if I work on small technical libraries for that kinda time, I will be able to really use it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel


NP - **** your no typing hands for not being around to keep me from throwing myselfout the 18th floor window!! I got in at 8:30 am this morning and was done working at roughly 10:30!!!!

It sounds like you want NP more than you want his girlfriend...:p :eek:

[Mediocrity]

I know the 8 basic horse stances :P

[AshidaKimFan]

hey Vash, what's your favorite Isshinryu forms you mentioned? I personally loved Naihanchi and Sanchin. I wouldn't mind learning Uechi Ryu's Sanchin, I like the open hand work they do with it.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
I have a whole bunch of other forms too from when i used to be at shaolin west school. I still practice em to keep em fresh. sio I guess I'm somewhere around the 20+ forms mark (including weapons) which in my opinion is too many as it is lol.

cheers Yeah, we have 10 core forms, plus a 12-line tan tui, which keep me busy enough, especially when I'm trying to break down the apps and use them in sparring. On top of that, I know a few other forms, like Tongbei, Er Lu Mai Fu, etc... add to that 15 or so weapons sets I know, and I don't have time to really explore other styles.

[red5angel]

It sounds like you want NP more than you want his girlfriend...

Well A - NP was hired to keep me entertained and he's failling miserably, and B - I don't necessarily even want his girl, just needed to drop my load somewhere! ;)











oh man...I feel like someone, somewhere is going to get his a$$ kicked for all this...

[red5angel]

how many of you guys are taking your traditional forms and using them in sparring or fighting? Like I started slipping some of the shaolin stuff into my shadow boxing to see if I could make it work and I'm feeling pretty confident that so far, I could.



Also, has anyone used or found a reasonable use for a gingerfist?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
how many of you guys are taking your traditional forms and using them in sparring or fighting? Like I started slipping some of the shaolin stuff into my shadow boxing to see if I could make it work and I'm feeling pretty confident that so far, I could.I work on using individual moves from my forms all the time. I also try to use Chin Na as much as possible, but it's hard with the protective equipment. Sometimes, we go no gloves at half-speed to practice locking and throwing.

Also, has anyone used or found a reasonable use for a gingerfist? I don't know what that is.

[red5angel]

gingerfist, for those who may call it something else or just don't know what it is is when you basically strike with the pinky finger. You sort of stick it out like you would your index or middle finger in phoenix eye fist. I was shown that it is useful as a sort of snapping whipping strike to the side for the most part but I have my doubts that it's good for anything but a distraction, or just breaking my pinky finger.

[MasterKiller]

I have never seen that, nor do I think I would use it.

[David Jamieson]

That sounds like possibly the dumbest made up technique I've ever heard of.

what next? "potato crotch"? that's where you swing your giblets as hard as possible at your attackers knees.

I have never heard of any technique that uses the small metatarsils on anything but soft tissue and definitely not extending the small fingers.

but hey, what i don't know could fill a warehouse.

is this why there are so many injuries in the martial arts? lol

who teaches that stuff???:rolleyes:

[AshidaKimFan]

who teaches that stuff?? try Shaolin wushu. Check your Shaolin Taguo Manuals (if you have them), it's in there (Ginger Fist)

once again this is KL spouting off at the mouth about something she knows nothing about...

[MasterKiller]

Here's a picture of Ginger Fist (3/9) from lkfmdc's Tibetan Kung Fu site.

http://www.tibetankungfu.com/fist-form_gallery-1.htm

Maybe he can explain what it's supposed to be....

[David Jamieson]

yes, why not explain that? doesn't look like the pinky is getting used. at least in that pick mk, the target point appears to be the index finger, not the pinky and it seems to be accomodating getting the index knuckle intoposition say under a jaw line. So, by that picture it is not the pinky being used to strike.

akf, you don't know anything so get back to giving that old man a massage, ya missed a spot on his @ss. nerd.

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by red5angel
how many of you guys are taking your traditional forms and using them in sparring or fighting? Like I started slipping some of the shaolin stuff into my shadow boxing to see if I could make it work and I'm feeling pretty confident that so far, I could.



Also, has anyone used or found a reasonable use for a gingerfist?

Sorry to butt into the conversation so late, but this is a question near and dear to me.
I use only the movements from my traditional forms in fighting. It really disturbs me when "kung fu" people's fighting turns out to be *******ized kickboxing. The problem as I see it is that there are too many students not being taught how to make the transition from forms to fighting, and too many instructors who only know or over emphasize the "block and punch" rather than trapping, chin na applications, shuai jiao applications, and full body movement. In other words, there's too many people out there who don't know how to use thier own system...Too bad.
Wish I had some solid advice on how to turn things around, but it would rile up too many loyalties and so forth.
Red5angel, keep up the good work...
As for ginger fists...Ouch, looks painful, but probably used for specialized pressure point striking, but you wouldn't catch me trying to pull one of those off.
Mike

[David Jamieson]

The problem as I see it is that there are too many students not being taught how to make the transition from forms to fighting, and too many instructors who only know or over emphasize the "block and punch" rather than trapping, chin na applications, shuai jiao applications, and full body movement. In other words, there's too many people out there who don't know how to use thier own system...Too bad.

I need to speak to this. siuHung, how canyou make this statement? Have you been to every school and experieneced all their teachings at the level of taking things to the "alive" fighting with the style of that school?

Too many students not being taught how to bring their stuff alive through methods of Sanda? What students are you talking about? Have you been sparring around the world?

These types of blamket statements are terribly misleading siuHung and frankly, in my opinion, one is better off not making them. Are you saying that only you and your methods are the ones that work? I'm here to tell you that if you think that is so, then you are full of s.hit.

just saying.

Here's my experience so far. When I studied Karate, making the transition to live was loud and clear. I did isshinryu for 4 years before my teacher left the city we lived in.

when I did Taekwondo, the objective was sportive fighting and so the tarnsition was geared towards that, but it was total taekwondo in that respect. Only the tkd was used and you couldn't make the scores if you deviated into non-tkd apps.

When I picked up formal kungfu training, the path of training was different and definitely more gradual, but through the process of san da (free fighting) and the gradual progressive learning curve, by the time you were at advanced sparring levels you were using wholly what you had learned from within teh styles taught.

every session finished with a breakdown and review, and deviance from extrapolation of the system was noted. THis whole "kickboxing trap" stuff is only applicable to people with limited training in a given style in my opinion.

since leaving the kungfu school after 7 years of training i have spent the last three years exchanging and training with a variety of practitioners all of advanced levels of proficiency who all have firm understanding and grasp of the arts they have learned and you can see it , feel it and learn from it in free form hand crossing with them. It's helped me see a lot of different players doing the different arts they have learned.

so unless you are going to a suck @ss school and all theschools you have been to are suck@ss, then your statement is wholly incorrect in the grand scheme of things.

regards

[Vash]

First, SiuHung has taken the correct and applied a friggin gingerfist to it's left testicle.

Second, KL, calm the fug down.

The problem which SiuHung mentioned, that being the fact that many martial arts schools taught their forms as one thing and their free-sparring as another. How often do we as an online community hear this kind of stuff? Actually, quite a bit.

The point of transitioning from just doing the technique/applying the principle of the form to actively resisting partner(s) is often glazed over in favor of the kick/punch matchup.

Notice the use of the word "often." SH was talking to his observations and experiences. In the above paragraphs, so was I. Not to get down to percentages, but a good little bit of MA being taught, though not being crappy, is not top-knotch, thus allowing for more sub-style-standard sparring.

As an aside, I'd say you're sparring training regimen is definetly top-knotch. Excellent ideas which should be applied more liberaly amongst the TMAs.

[David Jamieson]

a bunch of smack talk about this and that on the internet is meaningless. You simply can't make the supposition that people aren't being trained properly in "most" schools.

How the "fug" would he or anyone know that? Without going and seeing and feeling it for himself.

I think it's a load of crap that's where I'm coming from. I know plenty of martial artists from a wide array of different schools who do not fit into that blanket statement.

that is like saying mma-ers are all caught in the same trap as teh next guy and are a bunch a lame flailers. what hogwash. The arts are living and flexible and changing all the time, the guy at the top gets taken down because the guy working towards taking his place wants to use techniques that that guy is unfamiliar with.

these observations are NOT observations is what I am saying. They are stupid assumptions based on a bunch of stupid crap someone reads on the internet instead of going and doing the dang work it takes to get good.

so, that's what Im saying vash and I ain't gonna calm the fug down about it :D I'm tired of hearing it cause it's bull s.hit and not true in my experience which isn't as wide as the sea but not minute by any means.

get out there, cross some hands and learn some stuff. that's how you will progress. never underestimate the skills of someone because of what you eye says. you don't know til the hands hit you.

cheers

[Vash]

It didn't look like smack to me. It looked like the obvervations of someone who has seen a good number of schools which don't teach direct sparring from the forms curriculum. In some areas, this is prevelant. In others, it's almost commonplace. Besides, a person tends to remember the good schools; the bad and indifferent ones get generalized, their numbers blurred . . .

Gosh I'm sleepy.

[AshidaKimFan]

no use arguing Vash, KL is from Canada, and they think they know everything about everything, which of course, makes them into GIANT a-holes, of course everyone knows that...

[Vash]

. . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . .. . . .. . . . . . . .

Ashida Kim Suxors.

[David Jamieson]

Hey ashidakims girlfriend, anytime you want your limited world view chopped to pieces in the cold hard light of the day under the blade of reality, just take a little trip up north. we'll be happy to help you straighten out your hillbilly mores and outlooks :D

lol,

I like a good debate, and a battle of wits, but in your case I don't think it's fair that I battle a guy who only has half his weapons with him. I'll wait til you're finished high school before continuing.

Vash, I'm surprised you don't think this whole thing about kungfu is phony isn't smack talk. Because it is and it is always coming from the camp of the 6 month veterans of the new mma club in town:rolleyes:

Kungfu players who are for real are constantly analyzing their junk and working it. Sure, there are flunkies who think that their art is the be all and end all and that their school is how teh model for all cma should be, but those guys are laughable and not important and when they get dumped in a for real fight, that's when they should start to re-examine.

I would reiterate that "most" schools are not like this and I would also say that "most" teachers can take their students into live training if that is the goal of their curriculum.

So if you are NOT out there and seeing what's going on in the schools, then likely the best advice I can give is to STFU with these blanket statements in regards to Kungfu and live training.

cheers

[SiuHung]

Sorry Kung Lek, the intention of the post was not to talk smack.
Don't get me wrong, I love kung fu, its a major part of my life.

It has unfortunately been my experience both in my travels around the US, and in past tournament competitions. I can say with all honesty that most...read that as most schools that I've interacted with have as I believe Vash said, a different way of sparring vs. what they train in. I live Wisconsin, but have been in Texas, Georgia, and Arizona, as well as having a fair amount of tournament experience in Illinois and Ohio. I think SanDa is cool, but doesn't reflect much stylistically, its more like kickboxing plus.

Also, I wasn't in any way saying that my training methods are better, but only that my focus is to use the techniques of my system rather than modified kickboxing.

So...if your experience has been different then I'm glad for you as well as being a bit jealous. I'd love to have more interactionn with practitioners of good kung fu other than on the internet.

If you would like me to STFU, fine...I'm not interested in having an online battle with you or anyone. It seems a little harsh, but if I'm not welcome in the conversation then I won't participate.
Mike:confused:

[red5angel]

on that page someone linked to for tibetan kungfu, at the bottom of the page is a picture of something that looks like the guingerfist I was taught. First knuckle extened, finger still curled, used in a snapping/flickig motion, most likely to hit soft points.


KL - Don't you think your overreacting just a tad. The guy wasn't attacking you, he was making a general statement, and I think I'd be inclined to agree with him. In my experience there are way more bad kungfu schools then there are good ones.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
on that page someone linked to for tibetan kungfu, at the bottom of the page is a picture of something that looks like the guingerfist I was taught. First knuckle extened, finger still curled, used in a snapping/flickig motion, most likely to hit soft points. Where does the pinkie finger factor in?

[red5angel]

my guess is it is the "striking point". Curl your pinky finger so the tip touches your palm where your finger and palm meet. The knuckle becomes pretty solid and I believe it's meant for pressure point striking.

[David Jamieson]

alright, i'm chillin, i'm chillin...chillin like a villain lol.

guys, i get out there and i train with others from all kinds of backgrounds at every opportuinity i can.

lemme tell ya that tournaments are small and closed events that involve limited amounts of schools in the kungfu world, so i guess if that's yoru anglethen you are only gonna see that and you could draw the conclusion that thopse schools that do that sort of thiong are in fact s.hitty.

What I don't dig is saying it about Kungfu schools in general. There are in my experience a lot of small, non-commercial schools that are totally serious about the traditional arts and teh for real fighting that can be done with them.

You'd be surprised how many of these there are. I've been pretty much across canada, coast to coast and each and every major city has these types of serious kungfu clubs.

sure there is strip mall joints filled with gangly kids stumbling through forms and kata and trying to get some sense of body balance, but these kids and adults do not have even a modicum of kungfu yet. so they are not the ones you want to judge the arts by. These are beginners trying to find the path. Many are not even on it (the path) yet. The same can be said of tournaments.

of teh 1000 who attend, maybe 2-5 of the pracs there have kungfu in them.

I get ticked when people judge the arts by the external people out there who still haven't dropped their nuts for teh most part. Once you reach inside, the story is very different, in any discipline.

It would be just as unfair for me to say that most reality based schools have just a bunch of bruise covered hacks who know nothing about fighting. This is true on the outside, but when you look deeper at teh long term pracs, it's not true at all.

Serious practitioners are serious practitioners and most schools will produce a few serious practitioners in the lifetime of the school.

keep in mind that for every 1000 kungfu students that enrols in a school on average only 5 of them will continue for life. That is true of "most" serious disciplines.

cheers and Mike, sorry if I'm fugging with your junk, but that's just how I see things.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
lemme tell ya that tournaments are small and closed events that involve limited amounts of schools in the kungfu world, so i guess if that's yoru anglethen you are only gonna see that and you could draw the conclusion that thopse schools that do that sort of thiong are in fact s.hitty. Um. You ever been to Taiji Legacy? Hundreds (like 1,500) of people from all over the world go there to compete. I'm sure there are similar tournaments in other parts of the US as well.

You can get plenty of exposure to good arts at tournaments.

[norther practitioner]

oh man...I feel like someone, somewhere is going to get his a$$ kicked for all this...

Yeah, like you when you are here in Denver..

:D



Um... KL,
1 Have you been to a major tournie?
2 Have you been to a major tournie here in the US?


There are some exceptional schools that show up..
I'm going to be interested in seeing who makes the team for the US for the Traditional forms championships in China this fall too.

[David Jamieson]

yep, I've been to and competed in major tournies.

Not stateside however, but hey, I'm canadian. We have larger ones here too though where you have literally 1000's of entrants.

so, sure I am sure there are lots of good competitors at major tournies everywhere.

A great deal of tournaments are smaller affairs though and there are more of these than major tournies. These are the tournies that are commonplace and have at best maybe a few hundred entrants.

cheers

[SiuHung]

Now were're talking Kung Lek. I can see where you're coming from, just wish I had more interactions like your own to base an opinion on. As for other guys fuggin' with my junk...I may have to employ my self defense skills:p

I'm going to a tournament next month...I hope there's something there to change my mind.
Mike

[red5angel]

Actually, even if you take the large events, what sort of a percentage do you think those people make up of so called kungfu or traditional martial arts people? I'm not saying there aren't any good people out there and I'm not even saying there aren't quite a few, just that it's far from the majority.
I've been to a few tournies and competitions and seen plenty of good people, and some not so good people, but atleast their trying.
However, just take a look around your city and see how many of those people who practice so called TMA in your local area, go to these competitions. The percentage is small enough.
I don't think it's saying something bad about TMA, I think its saying something bad about all that ego out there who should be learning and not teaching, and for those that aren't applying themselves, to start applying themselves.

[norther practitioner]

5% of a thousand still leaves you with 50 good people in the same place at the same time.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
5% of a thousand still leaves you with 50 good people in the same place at the same time. ****, the 4 guys who out-placed me in Trad. Forms all came from the same school!

[norther practitioner]

I was waiting for that.... thanks MK.

You see who's schools consistantly place at these events. Johny Lee's students if I remember. The top ten in MK's division were all very, very good in there forms, you could really see the apps.

[MasterKiller]

The guy from Lee's White Leopard that won first place is on Team Paul Mitchell, I think.

He was in the background during the XMA training scenes, and he's included in a picture in last months IKF talking about one of his team mates winning something-or-other.

That guy had the best double-chain form I've ever seen.

[norther practitioner]

Where the second chain was hidden for a while right...

Anywho, what do you plan on doing this year, I think I remeber you saying you might spar... doing advanced forms, open weapon, what else?

[MasterKiller]

If I can make it, I'm going to try to get into San Shou shape. The cold weather and the baby have put a dent in my conditioning, and I would puke after a 2 round fight right now.

If I don't think I can get the conditioning done in time, I'll do long weapons, traditional Northern forms, and maybe rope dart in that category where they let you try something new without being thrown in the advanced group.

I took 3rd in Traditional Staff at AAU, so I might add that in as well.

[norther practitioner]

Trad. Northern forms
Open weapons (fan)
straight sword
broadsword
maybe staff
Yang taiji
maybe 24 standard
maybe beg. wushu

[MasterKiller]

I could do straight sword and broadsword, I guess. My double sword form is pretty good. hmmmmmm.

I'm trying to talk my KF brother into doing a two-man set, maybe 3-Section vs. Staff.

AAU Nationals are first this year, so I may test some things there before I try them at TL.

[norther practitioner]

This is my last year in INT. for kung fu, I'll be in beginner for both wushu and taiji. You going to do any of the seminars if you go?

How big is the AAU thing in Texas? The Albuquerue tournie I went to was AAU.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
How big is the AAU thing in Texas? The Albuquerue tournie I went to was AAU. About 1/4 size of TL.

[norther practitioner]

Right on, I wish I could go down again, but thats a long haul for a smallerish tournie.

I'm excited for this tournie in KC to be over though, I'll be learning my new straight sword form. It is the same form that my teacher did well with back in the day, when he competed with the US kuoshu team.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
I was waiting for that.... thanks MK.

You see who's schools consistantly place at these events. Johny Lee's students if I remember. The top ten in MK's division were all very, very good in there forms, you could really see the apps.

I haven't read the whole thread so scuse my bad if I make one...


where exactly did you say Johnny Lees School was? and we're talking taiji right.....


do you have a link to a website?

[norther practitioner]

Taiji Legacy is a tournie down in Dallas, Texas (Arlington to be exact).

Johny Lee's school website (http://www.leeswhiteleopardkungfu.com/)


Taiji Legacy website (http://www.chinwoo.com/2004tcl/)

Taiji Legacy is an all round cma tournie...

a lot of taiji people go though, they have like 80 different taiji events (I may be exagerating, but maybe not when you break it down).

17 different categories, 3 different levels, plus push hands at like a bunch of different weights, abilities, and restricted step, stationary and non stationary.. so yeah like a million.

[blooming lotus]

Dallas ha...sweet as...I'll check out the website and keep it mind

cheers