The five sounds of CLF

[extrajoseph]

Seeing there is so much hot air being made lately, let us get back to normal with some sound discussion on noise control in CLF.

People talked about using the CLF sounds to recognize each other, I was taught these five sounds to train my “jing hei” (essence/qi) and “ging” (dynamic force), I wonder if other branches have the same.

1) The “wak” sound for the tiger guak used in moves like seung and dan fu jeow, and meng fu tui san.
2) The “dik” sound for the leopard lik used in all sorts of kicks like da teu, fei teu and tek teu.
3) The “yik” sound for the dragon shen used in moves like cheung arn choi, seung jin choi and seung long chut hai.
4) The “ha” sound for the snake hei used in moves like yum wuk and lu yum choi.
5) The “hok” sound for the crane jing used in moves like hok jeu and ding jeu.

The sounds have to be felt in our lower dantian and we can do two men drills with them. For example, with the “hok” sound, my partner would start with a cheung arn choi, I have to side step him and block him with a chin-la then counter with a hok jeu to his temple leaned slightly in dil ma stance. He taps me hard with a slap to my stomach as I make the “hok” sound trying to hit him back. I have to guan hei (fill my body with hei) and stand firm on one leg at the very moment of strike and then become soft and flexible again once it is done.

With the “wak” sound my partner throws a heavy medicine ball at me and I have to throw it back (catching it first was not allowed) with seung fu jeow in ji ng ma and make the “wak” sound and feel it in my stomach and my legs and not in my throat, otherwise I couldn’t throw it back properly.

Sound training was fun but it felt like we were in a lunatic asylum sometimes with everyone shouting at the top of his voice, we never got hoarse if we do it properly. I used to hear people making all sorts of funny noises in the park in China early in the morning, they did it for their health and we do it to kick someone head in, but I think the idea is the same – to guan hei.

The essence of the five animals (ng ying) is in jing (essence), hei (qi), shen (spirit), guak (bones) and lik (strength) and we can express them and train them with the five sounds. What kind of sounds do you make in your nick of the wood?

JX

[Fu-Pow]

Great conversation topic XJ:

We do our sounds slightly differently:

"Sik" for Saau Cheuih and Cheung Ahn Cheuih....

"Wah" for Fu Jaau

"Yik" for Chaap Cheuih

"Dik" for most kicks

"Ha" for any power move like Biu Johng, Gwa Cheuih or Chin Jih Cheuih

"Wok" for crane's beak strike (although my Sifu told me this optional for the Hok Ying form.)

This made me think of another question for you guys, how do you breath when you're not making sound? That is, every move in the form doesn't have an associated sound so what do you do in between. Me personally, I try to concentrate on breathing out. On almost every move I try to breath out. I don't really focus on breathing in because breathing in happens as a consequence of breathing out. I breath in mostly between the movements. I have a classmate who spends too much time focusing on breathing in and he ends up hyperventilating. Also, if you don't breath at all you will get very tired, very fast. So you have to find the kind of breathing rhythm that is most efficient for your body.

P.S. I am now writing all my Chinese terms in the Yale Romanization. I'm trying to be consistent because on the internet and in real life. It's still not perfect because I can't represent all the tones. But the "h" indicates a low tone. The "aa" represents a soft "ar" sound. Eg. Chaap Cheuih sounds a little like "Charp" Chui but it is a softer "ar" sound.

Peace

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
This made me think of another question for you guys, how do you breath when you're not making sound? That is, every move in the form doesn't have an associated sound so what do you do in between. Me personally, I try to concentrate on breathing out. On almost every move I try to breath out. I don't really focus on breathing in because breathing in happens as a consequence of breathing out. I breath in mostly between the movements. I have a classmate who spends too much time focusing on breathing in and he ends up hyperventilating. Also, if you don't breath at all you will get very tired, very fast. So you have to find the kind of breathing rhythm that is most efficient for your body.
Peace

Hi Fu Pow,

I do what you do most of the time, but sometimes I would concentrate on the in breath when I have to jump up or raise my chi suddenly and let it out again when I have to come down or to spread out. I had trouble lifting myself up in the openning sequency of the bak mo kuen until I worked on my in breath deeply, then the coming down was easy and I can land in my lotus stance without hurting my knees.

I was taught never to hold your lips too tightly and leave a little gap in the mouth for the air to rush out quickly, but the teeth are always closed so I don't bite my tongue just in case I get a whack in the chin. Most of the time it is breath in through the nose and breath out through the mouth.

JX

[Kennyfist]

ExtraJoseph,
I really appreciate you bringing this topic into discussion.
From my limited understanding, the sounds are not all suppose to be felt in the lower dantian for example the yik sound. Also in practice some use a 'sik' sound.
Some say the sounds are suppose to force you to change the pattern of your breathing and help your ging.
I know Chan Yiu chi had mentioned the five sounds in a manuscript. Sound Chi gung is very interesting and I would be interested in what you personally feel when training it ie the 'chi experience'.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Kennyfist,

Thanks for joining in the conversation. To me, the lower dantian is like the hub of a 3-D wheel, everything goes into the hub first before it goes out to the parts, otherwise the wheel will collapse and we cannot “guan hei”. Without connecting the sound to the lower dantian, it will be hollow and weak. I feel it in my lower dantian and whatever I want to do with the sound at the same time.

Whether we say yik or sik, it does not matter, it is the ik that does the trick.

How I personally feel when training with sound? One aspect is I feel more energized, fuller and deeper. For example, when I practice chun la follow by yum wuk or yeung charp follow by yum charp, if I use the sound “heng” and “ha”, I feel I can drive it deeper, fuller and more penetrating with my follow up.

I don’t feel the sound forces me to change my breathing pattern, I feel more like I can let go with the sound and it gives me more speed and stamina (ging). The sound is the yin (the soft) aspect and the delivery is the yang (the hard) aspect and we have ging when yin and yang came together.

Any way that is my experience, others may use sound in a different way. What do you do with the sounds?

JX

[Kennyfist]

Hi Extrajoseph,
My experience is somewhat similar to yours. I think the sounds help me to focus the ging in the technique better. I think it also forces us to breathe properly and more regularly.
But the sounds should match the technique eg wak sound forces the breath lower than say yik and so cheung ghaan choy with a wak sound would be inappropriate. That's why I mentioned the bit about feeling it in the lower dan tian.
I like the way you describe it in that the "yin" aspect of the breath is somewhat hidden but the effect is there in the "yang " expression of the technique. When yin and yang are harmonious then you have better chance of utilising the full capacity of your body power in expressing ging.
I really enjoy a lot of your technical posts EJ! You should actually post more!

[phantom]

Guys, do you think these sounds and breaths could be considered a form of chi kung? Thanks in advance.

[Sho]

Originally posted by phantom
Guys, do you think these sounds and breaths could be considered a form of chi kung? Thanks in advance. It surely is an internal aspect in practice, but I don't know whether it would fall under qigong when compared to various other forms of qigong. I would say that these sounds are an intrinsic part of the techniques themselves; not exactly deviating from them. You could compare them to the fundamental mechanics of technique execution (eg. proper body rotation and alignment), because they are also part of the technique as a whole. But I guess, on a superficial level, you could classify them as a form of qigong, especially because they involve focused breathing. This is merely my own interpretation.

[extrajoseph]

Just as there is pure maths and applied maths, there is pure qigong and applied qigong. This stuff is applied qigong because we use it for a specific purpose (to fight someone with it).

It is very easy to mix them up just as we mixed up taijiQUAN (do taijiquan as a martial art) with taijiGONG (do taijiquan as a health and healing exercise) because we can't tell the subtle difference between lian quan (train to fight) and lian gong (train to improve the body).

[freehand]

Well, this all caught my attention. My foundation art is Kung Fu San Soo, from the QuanYin Buddhist Temple in Guangdong Province. Its original name was Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung Ga. I am not familiar with the technical terms you use for movements, sorry.

I was taught to train solo forms with these four sounds:
Haaa - for power moves such as throws.
Dik - for snap kicks
Wok - claws and other pulling in movements
Yuk - for snapping punches

A book I have by a first-generation American master says that he once heard our grandmaster discussing the use of Hai for a chopping motion.

We were told that we should train frequently with these, but fight silently.

Our art is several hundred years old, circa 1200 AD (according to oral tradition), and put together by the monks in this small southern temple (*not the Southern Shaolin Temple).

Sounds like we share some roots, n'est-ce pas?

[Kennyfist]

If
i'm not mistaken, the GM for kungfu san soo is jimmy woo aka chin (chan) siu duk whose kungfu can be traced back to chan siu hung, a student of chan heung, ie clf.

[Fu-Pow]

Kung fu san soo sounds like:

Choy Lay Fut + Hung Ga

There is another art called Jow Ga which is sometimes also referred to Hung Tao Choy Mei or "Head of Hung, Tail of Choy."

Not sure if that refers to Choy Lay Fut or Choy Ga.

[Eddie]

Actually Ho Foh is the same as Foh (Ho Fut) as it is just another way (some would say incarnation) of a buddha.

I hear this term often amongst some Tao practicioners (Qigong Ho Foh, Ho Foh Shr Twsin etc)

I saw some Kung Fu San Soo, and they gwa sou chop just like us, so I assume its still CLF with a different flair is you will.

A friend translated it to me, and the Hung at the end (Tsoi Li Ho Foh Hung) was not the same as the hung in hung ga (my friend studies hung kuen from some master in Singapore or Malaysia).

XJospeh, thank for this topic, I think it was one of the better ones so far.
E

[phantom]

Does this applied chi kung have rules to follow when practicing it just like a pure chi kung would? For example, with a pure chi kung, you have to do it at specific times of day, you cannot do it on the same day as another chi kung that is incompatible with it, etc.. Thanks in advance.

[Sho]

Originally posted by phantom
Does this applied chi kung have rules to follow when practicing it just like a pure chi kung would? For example, with a pure chi kung, you have to do it at specific times of day, you cannot do it on the same day as another chi kung that is incompatible with it, etc.. Thanks in advance. No, because apparently confrontations aren't predetermined. I guess there wouldn't be any fights if we had prognostic abilities. :D But seriously, these sounds are practiced merely in the manner of realism by applying them in sparring, two-man drills and forms.

[freehand]

___________________________
"If i'm not mistaken, the GM for kungfu san soo is jimmy woo aka chin (chan) siu duk whose kungfu can be traced back to chan siu hung, a student of chan heung, ie clf." KennyFist
__________________________

The lineage I was told:
Quan Yin Temple in Hon Pong (about 90 miles from Canton),
Leoung Kick (former monk, Jimmy's great-great-great-grandfather),
Chin Moon Don,
Chin Siu Don,
Chin Siu Hung,
Chin Siu Dek (aka Jimmy Woo, my teacher's teacher).

I have not heard of this connection with Chan (Chin?) Heung. Googglegooglegooglegoogle... Aha!

Here's some speculation on the subject:
http://www.easthillskungfu.com/history.htm

Thanx!