Capoeira vs Mantis

[woliveri]

Down at the beach lately, I see a group of Capoeira artists who get around in a circle while some of them play some drum instruments and square off.

They do cartwheels into the "match" and then perform eyebrow kicks and other "showy" stuff. As a spectator with former experience in Martial Arts I thought the display looked ridiculous. I could not see how they could defend with a more traditional martial art such as Tai Mantis, etc.

I could be wrong. They did display good flexibility. Perhaps this was their sort of sensitivity training. Any Mantis practioners here have experience with Capoeira?

Thanks,

[Mediocrity]

All I can give you is my personal opinion from what I've seen -

Capoiera was made disguised as a dance, and as far as I know - it's a very formidable and powerful fighting style, as is Northern Mantis...

Both of them look like a dance from watching them...

[mantis108]

Well, my experience with it (one of my biggest TCMA mortal sins beside ground fighting) is limited to the "jinga" which one of my female students tried to teach me. Basically, the jinga is pretty much the heart and soul of the art. It is as important as the stances to TCMA. Some style of Capoeira (there are many just as TCMA has) would have plenty of basics incorporated into the Jinga. The workout is quite demanding. Anyway, having 2 left feet at dancing, I have a hard time building the most essential of the art - a base rhythm and the momentum to launch the attack. Actually, I should say I lack the "deceptiveness" because my basics, the Jinga, sucks. That in turn doesn't give me the correct footwork to do anything. So she gave up in showing me and I am still left with 2 left feet. :o

People enter martial arts for various reasons. I think people are drawn to Capoeira for its versatile and dynamic appeal.

Just some thoughts to share.

Mantis108

[Brazil Mantis]

Capoeira is very commun in Brazil. Since I was young it was very commun to see capoeira presentations in diferent places. In the past Capoeira has not a good reputation in general terms, because a lot of people believed that capoeira will deveop violence for human being and things like that... But today, brazilian government gives support for a lot of Capoeira team, because is part of our own culture and part of Africa's influence of my country.

I do not consider Capoeira as martial arts in the same sense that chinese martial arts, though it was used by slaves against "aristocrat" in our brazilian history. Capoeira is part of our national culture and it is not only a "dance".

Capoeira is a kind of activities that "explain" a little bit about some of brazilian people feature in general terms, as: "adaptation", "improvisation", "flexibility" in the life because our country was only european colony and we learned a lot of with this kind of system and we developed this sense of life... I am very happy that others nations of today open their countries for brazilian people.

Hope it helps,

Brazil Mantis

[woliveri]

Respect anyone who trains hard at what they do.

Musilum Terrorists train hard at what they do. Should I respect them? I know what you're trying to say but we shouldn't make such generalizations.

Brazil Mantis, I worked with a group of Brazilians back in the 80s in up state NY. They came over for the season and worked in many hotels in the summer. Great group of people. I had a lot of fun with them.

Mediocrity, the Mantis I've seen looks nothing like dance. Actually, neither did the Capoeira. At least not compared to any of the dance I've seen.

[ursa major]

Hello Woliveri,

I first encountered Capoeira several years back while living on the West Coast. It is definitely a high energy workout demanding great flexibility and has many surprises for those awaiting a lesson in humility.

There is one particular technique that I picked up that I thought was brilliant when adapted to ground fighting, basically it is a method of 'rolling out' of a fall and quickly turning into a series of short range kicks while recovering to foot.

As with any style when examined carefully, you will find useful material from which you can learn. Although I found Capoeira to be very interesting and a remarkable style, unfortunately I do not believe that it compares well to Tanglang.

shanghai_kid -- ok, I'll take the bait, what on earth is a Tekken 3 character and who is Eddy Gordo? :confused:

my .02 cents worth,
UM

[GermanMantis]

Originally posted by ursa major
shanghai_kid -- ok, I'll take the bait, what on earth is a Tekken 3 character and who is Eddy Gordo? :confused:
UM [/B]

Hi Ursa Major,

i thinks it's a Playstation2 "beat 'em up"-game and Eddy is a character, who's fightigstyle is capoera. When i'm not misstaken.
Greeting from germany
Chris

[SevenStarPM]

My initial mantis sifu had done a seminar on capoiera. Not many people turned up, and after they had gone my sifu and the cap instructor continued training. The cap guy started showing him the "self defense" side of the art...a lot different to the dance-like display shown usually. My sifu remarked how effective and dangerous it was when fully learnt. I have had no real experience beyond watching them. However, i respect my sifu's opinion and so pass it on to you guys. Hope it helps.

Chris

[woliveri]

Yeah, I guess there must be more to it. As I mentioned before, it seemed like it was some sort of sensitivity exercise of being in close fighting although they did not use hands at all. More like a boxer keeps his hands up, that's what they did. Then swayed back and forth looking for a time to execute a kick but the kick seemed directed to miss rather than land on the opponent. So, from my point of view, they were timing un-scripted attacks meant to miss the opponent.

Next time I see them I'll ask some questions.

shanghai_kid, are you actually in ShangHai now?

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by woliveri
[B]Respect anyone who trains hard at what they do.

Musilum Terrorists train hard at what they do. Should I respect them? I know what you're trying to say but we shouldn't make such generalizations.


*sigh* It used to be on Internet forums that the word "Nazi" was a sure sign of a thread gone awry. Now I suppose it's "Muslim terrorists". Anyway most of the men actually fighting on the "front lines" against terrorists (muslim or otherwise) have quite a bit of respect for their work ethic, just no respect for their motives. To not respect your enemy is to underestimate him. To underestimate your enemy is to be defeated by him.

Capoeira is a great workout. I've only done a little bit of it, be just doing the "jinga" is aerobic. As for fighting ability, I do know of at least one Capoeria Mestre to win Vale Tudo in Brazil. (Mestre Hulk). The funny thing is that he was told he was just there to demonstrate, but when he got there he found his name on the fight card.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Olethros]

Originally posted by woliveri
Respect anyone who trains hard at what they do.

Musilum Terrorists train hard at what they do. Should I respect them? I know what you're trying to say but we shouldn't make such generalizations.


Maybe what he meant to say was he respects the training even if he doesn't respect or like how they apply the training.

[mantis108]

Brazil Mantis has great info on Capoeira and great points about learing culture with MA. I agreed wholeheartedly with learning a specific martial art means learning the culture of the people as well.

I believe respects come with understanding and it should be bilateral. Unfortunately today there are people who still confuse respect with fear (applied with violence). Intimedation works with the weak minds. Martial arts is about education and strengthing the mind-body continuum. A good martial art is never about violence. It is rather a means to defuse it.

I think Brazil martial arts in general has quite a bit of heart and soul. They are unique and sincere in nature however deceptively disfunctional it looks. There are method in the madness. :D

BTW, if anyone is interested in seeing some cool capoeira and BJJ esque choregraphy and rope dart, check out "Vampire Effects" (formerly Twin Effects).

Greetings Jmdrake,

Thanks for the interesting post.

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

Capoeira is excellent. Just as with wushu, movies and demonstrations only show the side of the art that will appeal to the masses. Capoeira actually has a lot of takedowns and infighting, which is what most people don't see.

[woliveri]

ShangHai,
What are you doing there? That is, how is it you can remain there for so long? I'm interested in going to China for a lengthy stay but haven't yet worked out the logistics.

Thanks,

[Tainan Mantis]

semi interesting debate of the past several "vs" threads.
Only thing to do is fight someone of that style and gain the answers through expeience.
Then come back here and post the results say so I can remain seated in my living room eating potato chips and soda pop.

After a few months I'll just regurgitate it as part of my personal experience in some undetermined past.

[German Bai Lung]

Tainan: LOL! You hit the nail on the Top.

[woliveri]

Hey Shanghai,

Thanks, Nice site. I have a good foundation in Mandarin with Traditional Characters just not too much speaking practice. Shouldn't be too hard to expand on that foundation.

Do you ever come across any good Qi Gong groups or teachers? What's the current atmosphere regarding Qi Gong in China or your area?


Thanks,

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shanghai_kid
Wolv. Yup, I'm in Shanghai now. Three years this summer.

Yup, Tekken 3 is a 'beat 'em up game. Number 3 was the first beat 'em up to be truly 3D, you can side step 'in' and 'out' of the flat and execute side throws and attacks. It rules. Eddy Gordo is the capoeira character, yes.

Err.. of course, that's all unrelated to real kung fu. I'm just a big nerd for kung fu games and movies too.

couldn't you do that in both virtua fighter and vf2, both of which predated tekken? I've always been more of a vf fan than a tekken fan, due to VF's more realistic fighting, so I never kept up with tekken much.

[woliveri]

Thanks Shanghai,

Yeah, that's what I was eluding to. FaLun that is. I know they caused a lot of problems for other Qi Gong practioners in the past and didn't know if all Qi Gong practioners had to go underground because of this one group. One of my local Chinese friends who is a Wild Goose practioner, her and her friends/relatives in China are very upset with Falun for this reason.


Thanks again,

[woliveri]

Ok, it appears, based on posts by HouZiPiGu and Tainan, I should explain myself regarding this thread.

Why pick the title "Mantis vs Capoeira". Since I am a former mantis practioner and these are the people I identify with I wanted to post in this forum. I wanted to get responses regarding the art of Capoeira and due to possibly being subjected to be moved to another forum, I needed to post something with Mantis in it. It was the only thing I could think of at the time and didn't know it was done to death before.

[Tainan Mantis]

woliveri,
I will post the details of my cross style exchanges when I have time.
But please, don't put my name in the same sentence as a guy called "monkey butt."

[woliveri]

No problem Tainan, no offense meant. Actually, nearly every time I post over here I get myself in some kind of thing. I'm at about 2 posts a year and probably should kick it down to once a year. I'll be heading back over to the jeep forums now.


Thanks ShangHai for your help.

[Tainan Mantis]

woliveri,
Can't you sense the humor?
The point is moot since, thank Mr Bei, Monkey Butt's post has already been deleted.

Hope to see you before 2005