WT sparring clips

[IRONMONK]

After much searching i have finally found some WT sparring clips:

http://www.meihua.ee/video/wt_udar.wmv

http://www.meihua.ee/video/clip01.wmv

Let me know what you guys think?

regards,

ironmonk.

[burnsypoo]

crickets chirping

[Atleastimnotyou]

Ok, they start off with wing chun, then they all try to take it to the ground. i can understand wanting to be good on the ground, but why not emphasis the wing chun more.
Plus i don't really know much about groundfighting... but most of that looks like monkeys bashing eachother.

on a side note. in the first one, when the two girls went at it, one of them imediatly tried to do the girly hair pull technique, which was funny... but then they wound up pretty much the same as the other fights.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Not impressed at all with the wing chun "moves" I saw...but I will say this much - those guys were not afraid of contact...and
some of the elbows, knees, takedowns, ground & pound, choke stuff, was "real"...in the sense that, though not pretty or technically smooth...it can definitely happen like that in the street.

"A" for effort.

[Martin Foot]

I was impressed with the headguards, Where can them?

[AndrewS]

SWEET!!!

It doesn't look pretty, but it shouldn't look pretty. When matches are made evenly it tends to look sloppy.

Those guys rock- they probably are using a bit much contact for regular training, but they're totally headed in a good direction. My take is that their dynamic balance is messed up- basically they have root and balance when stable in chi sao to some degree, but don't bring that into motion, hence their fullcontact problems. The footwork didn't bring the body into play well- arm and body were perpetually disconnected.

Even so, props to them for banging, excellent music (old Shamen?), and the difference in the skills of the guy in light blue trunks between first and second clip are *huge*. Those guys are gonna get good.

Where are they?

Andrew

[KenWingJitsu]

Going to be good Andrew? They already ARE good. Certainly better than 99% of the 'mouths' on this here forum :cool:

And yes that is what real fights look like. So any criticism of not seeing much wing chun is laughable. For anyone who say that, I dare you to show me a REAL fight/sparrign clip where you see "pretty or perfect" Wing Chun....tip; doesn't exist. When two people fight for real, it looks like that.

And yes, it will most often go to the ground whether you want it to or not...such is combat....be prepared...or don't lol.

[AndrewS]

Dhira,

better than most of the mouths here on the forum, yeah.

I think Colin, Matt, Louvel, and young Greg could hang with the best of those guys with minimal work, and with another 6 mos will be significantly slicker than them. And Jannis's guys would slaughter them.

Later,

Andrew

[kj]

Better than most I've seen at that level of intensity. Body mechanics could be tightened up some, but whose couldn't. It isn't easy under that kind of pressure.

Wish they didn't rely so much on elbow "techniques" though, especially during times when there are other viable options. Despite the advantages, it also leaves them too open, vulnerable to disruption and control, and overcommitted, as did some overexterted strikes and knee shots at times. In these videos, those vulnerabilities often went unexploited, but a higher level opponent would have found and taken advantage.

I too give them a lot of credit. Most of them stayed together a lot better than some others I've seen under that kind of pressure. It's easy to be an armchair critic.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Knifefighter]

Sweet- and they even have a little bit of knowledge of the ground game. Some guard work and mount escapes would have saved the bottom people from a lot of punishment, however.

As far as the elbows- The use of elbows from the mount are absolutely devastating. The people on the bottom wouldn't have been able to do much exploiting of vulnerabilities, since, without the head gear, they would have had their faces split open. Any one of those elbows would have completely FUBAR'ed the person on the bottom- not to mention what those knees would have done to the guy who was side controlled.

[kj]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Sweet- and they even have some knowledge of the ground game.

As far as the elbows- The use of elbows from the mount are absolutely devastating. The people on the bottom wouldn't have been able to do much exploiting of vulnerabilities, since, without the head gear, they would have had their faces split open. Any one of those elbows would have completely FUBAR'ed the person on the bottom.

No doubt.

My comment was about more than just those from the mount. It sure is effective against someone who is covering. Still, presenting one's elbows is a potential vulnerability against someone who trains to utilize it. Everything has both advantages and disadvantages. And everything has a season; in these cases with a cowering opponent it seemed to work out. A little tighter in some of the body mechanics, as before, and that might also help to minimize some of the potential, albeit unexploited vulnerabilities both standing and mounting.

Just some ideas and observations, not arguing. As I said, it's easy to be the armchair critic. Besides, I recognize you as the better fighter, so I'm tapping out while I still can. :p

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Grendel]

The clips compare favorably to the scenes of the South Korean parliment today. :)

While props to the site for posting such revealing clips, IMO it looks like their Wing Chun goes out the window when they hit the ground.

[yylee]

this one is interesting

http://www.wingtsuncantabria.com/descargas7.htm

not a sparring clip....




I'd like this guy a little better, good reference material for Ernie's web site ;)

http://www.wingtsuncantabria.com/descargas21.htm

[kj]

Originally posted by Grendel
The clips compare favorably to the scenes of the South Korean parliment today. :)

While props to the site for posting such revealing clips, IMO it looks like their Wing Chun goes out the window when they hit the ground.

Offered as additional constructive suggestions. They could use some tightening up on their Wing Chun not just on the ground, but even when standing. Elbows fly too much in general; in an obvious effort for power, there are more pounding punches than Wing Chun punches, and leave too much open. This is a comment on mechanics and positioning, not speed. The paradox is that Wing Chun power goes out the window when we get greedy for muscle power.

At least on the ground, more "sticking" at least of a sort, control, and movement based on feeling can be observed at times. Maybe elbows-out pounding type of punches are a way to try and keep from seriously hurting each other too much in sparring? Though I doubt that is the reason behind them.

Also, standing footwork is mobile but unfortunately at the expense of stability and "settledness," thus easier to upset and disabling them from a more settled and substantial kind of power. Kicks are higher than they need to be, and have the drawback of making the person dishing them out more vulnerable to upset. Too much effort to keep distance at times. One of the guys in black pants demonstrated more stability and calmness than the others. At times, I don't know why they resorted to grappling.

The protective gear is a mixed blessing. Good thing they used it. Unfortunately, it also offers a false sense of protection in several respects.

Wing Chun goes out the window when greediness sets in. In those situations, I might (or might not) fare better in terms of staying with my Wing Chun. But were I of a mind to put myself in such a situation, I would almost certainly get the snot beat out of me, Wing Chun or no. More so since there was apparently no one refereeing, and I've got little heart for incidental maiming or murder of my training partners even for the sake of experience. Unfortunately, I'm not so skilled that I can simply control everyone at will. I'm still working on it though. :D

In the chi sau clips, there was too much playing at hands, not enough real control or attention to disrupting the partner at the core, or protecting one's own. Again, they could use some good coaching to help tighten up the body mechanics.

As before, it's easy to be an armchair critic. At least they didn't do as much ridiculous "technique sequence" stuff as I've seen in some other videos. If the goal is to build some aggressive fighting spirit quickly, they seem to be achieving that, with or without Wing Chun. Building exceptionally strong and functional foundation skills is a much slower go, and like many if not most of us, they have a long road ahead on that. Credits to them for sharing where they are at.

LOL @ yylee. :D

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Ultimatewingchun]

yylee:

Do we really have to comment on those two clips?

The first one was a dance and the second was against people who responded with nothing.

[Ernie]

yylee

I'd like this guy a little better, good reference material for Ernie's web site


in which way ?


i have seen some other video of that guy and he had some good body mechanics and balance unlike the sparring clips every thing was well, wobbly
god bless 'em for going at it but there balance was shaky at best
and no power in there shots at all , no control of distance or timing in the stand up
just walked towards each other like stick figures until one moved then they crash like cars head on ' no footwork or angles '

but when they hit the ground they seemed a bit better , to much wasted energy on powerless punches and hacking elbows , but one guy did have some nice knee shots

but these dudes looked like kids so that could be why they were lacking power and flow

but it comes back to wing chun against wing chun waste of time , to many bad habits will come out of it

once those guys leave the nest , they will tighten up

[yylee]

the first one is interesting because it reminds me of a footage I saw in a HK Kulo clip. Kind of wondering where these Chi Sau pattern come from.

The second one, just a little more body mechanics. Positive or negative, all good references. In fact, most of these demo clips, regardless of lineage, are always showing one guy dominating the others, are they not? ;)

kj

In my books, as long as the force is pointing towards the opponents, elbow out or in is just a positioning aspect.

[OdderMensch]

the hugging montage at the end was a bit creepy.



:D

[fa_jing]

I think it's a nice school, and a highly respectable effort on the part of the participants and the teacher. How I would suggest improvements is:

Too much WC vs. WC

Too much groundfighting. Engagement should be broken up when superiority OR neutrality has been cleary established. Needs more grappling on the ground, less repetitive head-pounding and covering up. Why not save those some of those headshots for standup fighting practice, instead of practicing the END of the encounter? Do these guys know how to bridge with their hips, how to Upa?

Needs more emphasis on footwork. I saw almost no footwork, WC or otherwise. No lateral movement.

No clinching in the stand up. My opinion of stand up fighting, is that it should be something more than a "straight punches and front kicks" competition at a fixed distance. IMO WC is more about finding a favorable angle to enter, and entering with structure. I favor clinching too, and followup moves. Please, teach your students about the clinch.

I think that these students could handle themselves well in the street and have a working knowledge of the art. That puts them in the top 10% of schools already.

[yylee]

Originally posted by OdderMensch
the hugging montage at the end was a bit creepy.

:D

I thought he was doing some Yee Kuen tree hugging stuff :), that's why I find it interesting. Easily amazed I am, LOL!

[kj]

Originally posted by yylee
In my books, as long as the force is pointing towards the opponents, elbow out or in is just a positioning aspect.

Hi yy,

Granted there are different theories and practices around elbow position in some Wing Chun circles. I am aware that TST, for example, does not emphasize elbow position in the same way that we do, nor does Hendrik for that matter. Even taiji enjoys elbows out compared to us, albeit combined with some notable differences in motion and geometry (e.g., an arch through the back) to pack in the wallop.

Maybe these guys in the videos had their punches optimized. To me, it appeared to be a lot more energy and effort expended than powerful punches produced and levied. Much of the time, the body(s) appeared to be adjacent to the strikes, rather than the substance backing up delivery. At the same time, there was a lot more exposure, however unexploited, than I'd be comfortable allowing. I did observe however, that some elbows seemed to be a bit more down in the group pose at the end.

YMMV. In any event they are generous in giving us these gifts to discuss and analyze according to our whims.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

Good post KJ.
Good analysis
Appropriate thanks to them for sharing.
joy

[yylee]

Originally posted by kj

I did observe however, that some elbows seemed to be a bit more down in the group pose at the end.

hi kj

so is the Bong Sau elbow-in? or out? I've heard many people said "kill the Bong, it's all evil" :D

As for Hendrik, I never met him, so I don't know how his elbows look like. May be he is just too fat to keep his elbows in ;)

Actually for Chi Sau demo's I'd like to see more "taking-your-space" kind of technique. The moment when one side starts something, because of the lost of contact, the other would immediately come in, take his space, break the structure/balance and eat him alive kind of stuff. Rather than seeing one guy strikes, the other goes even faster, rushing a few Lap, Pak or Gum, then follow up with a good looking strike.

Well, of course that's just me sitting in front of the computer watching streaming entertainment. :D

[Phil Redmond]

You're on the money.
I saw stills 8mm footage of a fight between a Tai Chi master and a White Cran master in an old issue of New Martial Hero years ago. Maybe someone here knows where to get the footage.
The controvery was that these two masters, who looked so good doing forms and doing techniques in a controlled evironment, looked like flailing school yard kids when fighting for real. I remember watching a show where two professional kick boxers were having a pre-fight press conference. During the press conference some one from the other camp started hurling insults at the opposition. A fight started between the competitors. They were throwing wild uncontrolled punches at each other until they were separated. Many people think that if you do martial arts that you shoud look like
Jackie Chan or Jet Li when you fight for real. It just ain't so. Anger/fear/anxiety/ can change all that.

[marcus_pasram]

Hi Phil,

Did you ever get to see any of the challenge/test matches that occured at Great Jones Wing Chun School in the 70s? I heard there were a couple

/marcus

[kj]

Originally posted by yylee


hi kj

so is the Bong Sau elbow-in? or out?


Out. As is lan sau. Both have their appropriate time and place. As far as I know, chain punching isn't one of those.



I've heard many people said "kill the Bong, it's all evil" :D

LOL. I would never say that. :D

However, we do say that "bong sau never stops or stays" since it is precarious to do so, and conversely, it's usefulness is in not doing so. I also don't mind "killing" the other guy's bong sau if he's silly enough to leave it hanging out there.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yylee]

Originally posted by kj

However, we do say that "bong sau never stops or stays" since it is precarious to do so, and conversely, it's usefulness is in not doing so. I also don't mind "killing" the other guy's bong sau if he's silly enough to leave it hanging out there.


Hi kj

good idea! break the Bong before it sends you flying! ;)

Some people just like breaking rules.

Here is another one, I think he is the same guy from the last clip.

http://www.wingtsuncantabria.com/descargas15.htm

I just love the internet, streaming entertainment! So don't analyse anything, it is just for fun!

yy

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by marcus_pasram
Hi Phil,

Did you ever get to see any of the challenge/test matches that occured at Great Jones Wing Chun School in the 70s? I heard there were a couple

/marcus
I usually came to the school late after work and stayed until 1 -2AM working out with Raul and his friend Baby (the Bak Mei that always hung around the school). I always heard about them later on and never wittnessed one. :(
If it weren't for the old picture you sent me I wouldn't have remembered about the Madison Square Garden Felt Forum fight where I was one of the corner people. That's the only major thing I can think of right now. I do remember guys coming by wanting to know what the school had to offer though. Usually after a demo they were convinced.

[kj]

Originally posted by yylee


Hi kj

good idea! break the Bong before it sends you flying! ;)



Yes, this is the flip side of the coin. I agree, a properly and judiciously employed bong sau can completely disrupt or control the opponent. A properly applied and timed bong sau amazing - melting the opponent's energy and stability like a hot knife through butter.

I also believe in the adage "There is no unstoppable technique." IMHO, this is why we must strive for constant improvement and due diligence, no matter how good or successful we seem to be at the moment.


Some people just like breaking rules.


I don't much believe in rules, though I do tend toward the philosophy that there is a right season for everything.

I have a serious question for you, as relates to our banter. In reviewing the original thread videos, does it appear to you that the prevalent form of punching demonstrated there is optimized?

Thanks also for the additional links.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Edmund]

In the original clips, there were one or two guys who were striking pretty well on their feet. Unfortunately they were interspersed with many clips of other guys flailing so badly that the good ones were lost in the mix.

One of them hit a straight right while stepping backwards and he knocked the other guy on his butt.

A couple of them were OK at delivering knees from a clinch but that's mainly because the opponent had no idea how to defend them. One was kneed about ten times in the head in the 2nd clip before he decided to lay down and get punched.



Needs more emphasis on footwork. I saw almost no footwork, WC or otherwise. No lateral movement.

No clinching in the stand up. My opinion of stand up fighting, is that it should be something more than a "straight punches and front kicks" competition at a fixed distance.

[marcus_pasram]

Hi Phil,

Obviously I wasn't around either. ;) I just hear battle stories from one or two the old time students. Can you share what you remember from the Felt Forum match? I never asked my SiFu about that one.

Could you offline your reply I don't want to hijack this thread.

thanks ... marcus


Originally posted by Phil Redmond

I usually came to the school late after work and stayed until 1 -2AM working out with Raul and his friend Baby (the Bak Mei that always hung around the school). I always heard about them later on and never wittnessed one. :(
If it weren't for the old picture you sent me I wouldn't have remembered about the Madison Square Garden Felt Forum fight where I was one of the corner people. That's the only major thing I can think of right now. I do remember guys coming by wanting to know what the school had to offer though. Usually after a demo they were convinced.

[yylee]

Originally posted by kj

I have a serious question for you, as relates to our banter. In reviewing the original thread videos, does it appear to you that the prevalent form of punching demonstrated there is optimized?


wah, a serious question! ;) there seems to be more elbows and knees in the clips. I think the overall goal in the videos are just to pound as many punches as possible, take the other fellow down as soon as they can. Optimized or not is not their concern.

Anyways, when I look at punches, I look at how much pounding vs thrusting. Thrusting uses more shoulder joint movements, forearm works like a forward pointing rod. I think boxers know more about this then many MA people. Elbow position is not the most critical factor, even when elbow is high and out it can still be sinking (of course it is harder to train, such as the hook punch in CK).

Sitting in front of the monitor and comment is cheap. It is admirable of those who put their clips online.

not sure if that answers your question.

[iblis73]

Truly they are going at it which is a good thing. I'm not about to criticize them......too easy to do but when u glove up and step onto the mat and ur stomach is churning up and u get a nice adrenaline dump-well, things change.

Adrenaline and uncertainty changes everything.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by yylee


wah, a serious question! ;) there seems to be more elbows and knees in the clips. I think the overall goal in the videos are just to pound as many punches as possible, take the other fellow down as soon as they can. Optimized or not is not their concern.

Anyways, when I look at punches, I look at how much pounding vs thrusting. Thrusting uses more shoulder joint movements, forearm works like a forward pointing rod. I think boxers know more about this then many MA people. Elbow position is not the most critical factor, even when elbow is high and out it can still be sinking (of course it is harder to train, such as the hook punch in CK).

Sitting in front of the monitor and comment is cheap. It is admirable of those who put their clips online.

not sure if that answers your question.
I believe it was a rhetorical question. You answered it from your perspective.

From my perspective, the punches were not optimized in structure which left them worthless and weak as exemplified by the fact that the recipients were well able to recieve them without apparent effect.

Every informed comment must be spelled out on this thread. KJ stands convicted of too much subtlety in her critique. :D

Please pardon my own understated comments.

Regards,

[Phil Redmond]

I wrote that one of the fighters was Tai Chi, well he was Ying Yee.
Anyway, here's the link to the fight that took place in Macau in 1954 http://kwoon2.free.fr/NgvsChan.WMV
You'll notice that the White Crane guy is using techniques from his system. I don't remember seeing much of the linear techniques inherent in Ying Yee (Shing I), but I'll look at it again.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
I wrote that one of the fighters was Tai Chi, well he was Ying Yee.
Anyway, here's the link to the fight that took place in Macau in 1954 http://kwoon2.free.fr/NgvsChan.WMV
You'll notice that the White Crane guy is using techniques from his system. I don't remember seeing much of the linear techniques inherent in Ying Yee (Shing I), but I'll look at it again.

Phil you're correct before, the old fighter was Ng(Wu) Gong Yee(Wu TC). He was the son of Ng(Wu) Gan Chuan. Your Chen TC Sifu should know Ng's history. The guy doing a form demo in the beginning was Dong Ying Jei, a student of the famous Yang Ching Fu(Yang style large frame).

The white crane style here is Tibetian White Crane, master Chen (the younger fighter) has boxing background also. I heard Chen is still alive, over 90.

[Phenix]

lots of BROKEN ARROW

[kj]

Originally posted by yylee
not sure if that answers your question.

Well enough to confirm common ground. Thanks for taking the time.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by Grendel
KJ stands convicted of too much subtlety in her critique. :D


Guilty, as always, lol.

Regards,
- kj

[AdrianUK]

Hi All

When I try and view these clips the player keeps stopping to buffer them , anyone know how to get them to run smooth ?

Thanks

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by AdrianUK
Hi All

When I try and view these clips the player keeps stopping to buffer them , anyone know how to get them to run smooth ?

Thanks Try using Internet Explorer.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Grendel
From my perspective, the punches were not optimized in structure which left them worthless and weak as exemplified by the fact that the recipients were well able to recieve them without apparent effect. That's because they were wearing full-face headgear. Many of those elbows had the potential to split the face open without the headgear.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by kj


No doubt.

My comment was about more than just those from the mount. It sure is effective against someone who is covering. Still, presenting one's elbows is a potential vulnerability against someone who trains to utilize it. Out of curiosity, how would you exploit the elbow positioning from the bottom mount position?

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by yylee


Phil you're correct before, the old fighter was Ng(Wu) Gong Yee(Wu TC). He was the son of Ng(Wu) Gan Chuan. Your Chen TC Sifu should know Ng's history. The guy doing a form demo in the beginning was Dong Ying Jei, a student of the famous Yang Ching Fu(Yang style large frame).

The white crane style here is Tibetian White Crane, master Chen (the younger fighter) has boxing background also. I heard Chen is still alive, over 90.
Thanks, You are right. It was a Tai Chi and White Crane master fighting. The person that sent me the link said to turn the sound down because of the kung fu movie sound effects. The subtitles were blurry and I thought I saw Shing I when the Tai Chi sifu came out. It turned out that it said Kung I. When I listened to the clip again it I heard the announcer say "Tai Gik Sifu" (Tai Chi teacher) in Cantonese. So it was a Tai chi Sifu

[Phil Redmond]

Do you know the cimcumstances that led to the fight?

[KingMonkey]

Errm ok I know that in reality fights look a bit scrappy and props to the students in the original clips but I have to comment on the clip of the 'masters' fighting.

WTF ???!!!!
What a couple of clowns.

Anybody who could chain punch for longer than 3 seconds and knew enough not to keep backing off would have overwhelmed either of those two.

[Phil Redmond]

YYlee,
OK I see. I listened again. the 'Kung I' in the subtitles was a Mandarin Romanization for Gung Yee. Thanks again for correcting me.

KingMonkey,
It did look to me like the White Crane guy was using his system.

[Ernie]

phil
I wrote that one of the fighters was Tai Chi, well he was Ying Yee.
Anyway, here's the link to the fight that took place in Macau in 1954 http://kwoon2.free.fr/NgvsChan.WMV
You'll notice that the White Crane guy is using techniques from his system. I don't remember seeing much of the linear techniques inherent in Ying Yee (Shing I), but I'll look at it again.


that was the best fight i have ever seen i'm laughing so hard i got tears coming down my face

that looked like 2 drunk gay guys fighting over make up

the best part was when they tried to fake


dude thaks for sharing it made my day
:D

[KingMonkey]

that looked like 2 drunk gay guys fighting over make up
LOL. :D

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Ernie,
Turns out I was wrong. One of the guys was Tai Chi not Ying Yee. Anyway, the WhtC guy looked like he was trying to stay within his system. I don't know enough about Tai Chi fighting application to comment on the other guy.

KingMonkey,
>>that looked like 2 drunk gay guys fighting over make up<<

That's just wrong. :) :) :)

[Ernie]

phil any 16 year old from the hood with 6 months worth of boxing would have put both those guys to sleep

:)

[Phil Redmond]

Ernie, JHR or 52 Blocks would have devasted them also. ;)

[Ernie]

yes sir
my mom with a slipper in her hand would have shut those dudes down to ha ha ha

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Out of curiosity, how would you exploit the elbow positioning from the bottom mount position?
For starters, the same way you'd do it standing up (with Wing Chun).

[russellsherry]

hi kathy jo, i think, your right re elbows some of the german guys meaning know disrespect tend to overuse it elbows in wing chun should be a shock surprize attack and their are always shorter moves peace russellsherry

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Grendel

For starters, the same way you'd do it standing up (with Wing Chun). And what way would that be?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Well in fairness...talking about taking advantage of the elbows coming down at you when your opponent is in the mount - by attempting to control those elbows and/or striking back up into ''what might seem like" centerline openings created by the elbow strikes - is a losing hand.

Some wing chun defenses against elbow attacks (like using your elbows) might ward off SOME blows but sooner or later the guy on top is going to start connecting and/or grabbbing your arm to transition to an armbar...

No...you've got to try and get out of there. Yes...you will be using your arms/hands in the process - but more along the lines of grappling reversals and escapes than wing chun striking. Some striking/blocking might come into play - but only as part of a bigger grappling strategy of escape...

And the odds of that happening, by the way - are not good.

The mount is almost always a MAJOR advantage for the man on top...usually a fight-ending position.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
No...you've got to try and get out of there. Yes...you will be using your arms/hands in the process - but more along the lines of grappling reversals and escapes than wing chun striking. Some striking/blocking might come into play - but only as part of a bigger grappling strategy of escape... WOW! We finally agree on something.

[Knifefighter]

I've only just now been able to view the clips in their entirety and I still have my same criticisms of WC, especially where specificity of training is concerned.

Kickboxing, boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai, Judo, freestyle wrestling- the stuff they use for real will bear a close resemblance to what they practice.

Doesn't anyone else find it ironic that none of the techniques used in any of the fights looked anything like the demonstration at the end of clip 01?

[kj]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Out of curiosity, how would you exploit the elbow positioning from the bottom mount position?

My comment on elbows was general and with stand up application more, though not exclusively, in mind. I was not specifically critiquing use of the elbows from the top mount position. Nor did my comment imply that it's a piece of cake to disturb or control someone's elbows, especially when being pounded by them from the mount.

To the pointed question you asked though. First off, I don't know one whit about ground fighting in particular, with extremely little time practicing in that dimension. I only know a little about Wing Chun, and commensurately, a little something about responsiveness based on sensitivity.

Having laid out that disclaimer, I fully agree that the person in the bottom mount position here is in a precarious position indeed. Furthermore, if the bottom mount person were significantly and proportionally skilled, they might not have ended up in that position to begin with - a double whammy.

Still, if the choices are to lie there and be made into hamburger or attempt to respond, maybe it's worth a try even if the odds of success are poor.

To that end, if the bottom mount can feel and find the timing, they may be able to intercept the incoming elbow in the same fashion as when standing. I think it goes without saying, the earlier the better. The desired effect would be to a) redirect the elbow off course enough to either deflect the strike, or b) at least take some of the steam out of the subsequent hit. It might also c) have the effect of momentarily jamming up the "elbower's" timing and rhythm.

In addition, d) if the redirection of trajectory is effective and substantial enough, it may create enough of a disturbance in the opponent's torso to change the dynamic of the engagement in a more significant fashion. It is this generic risk of having one's own body impacted or controlled through the vehicle of the elbow that poses varying degrees of vulnerability to "elbowers." (While I cannot read UWC's mind, and again, know virtually nothing about ground fighting per se, I am guessing that he was hinting at a "hopeful" change in dynamic something along these lines.) However unlikely for the bottom mount to have adequate sensitivity, positioning, and skill to pull it off with success in a "real" scenario, at least the general physics works.

I was able to demonstrate that much myself in class tonight despite not being particularly good, and as before, knowing virtually nothing of the "ground game." Granted, we were in no way going "full out." Nonetheless, I was able to significantly disturb the posture, positioning and dynamic of my larger and stronger "opponent" with little physical effort on my part.

Restating, at least in Newtonian physics, two solid objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time; if I can place my own elbow in the way, the opponent's attacking elbow will have to go somewhere else - and there is at least a chance, however minimal, that his body will momentarily follow, enough to create a change in dynamic and some new opportunity.

The above scenarios are in addition to the possibility, however remote, that some type of a strike or gouge (head, face, neck, armpit, etc.) may buy a change in dynamic or small window of opportunity. Failing these, were I in the bottom mount, I'd be trying for whatever I could bite, claw, gouge, or bang until I lost consciousness. Of course most of these are next to impossible with gloves and masks. Que cera, cera. I don't know about ground fighting, I only know a small something about not giving up, no matter how thin or unlikely all those "ifs" and "mays" in contrast to the many dreadful possibilities. Sometimes, you lose, but like Yogi says, "it ain't over till it's over."

To reiterate and clarify my earlier comments once more. I don't feel that it is always inappropriate to use elbows. I practice and apply them myself. Everything has its time and place. I do, however, feel that they can be sub-optimally used and over relied upon.

FWIW, the most appropriate and optimized use of elbows I noted in that particular set of videos was the "gentleman" who was simultaneously elbowing and kicking his opponent's head. He a) needed to use them, and b) did not become [more] vulnerable as a result of using them. The referee in that and a few other scenarios should probably be hanged or shot, but the exponent at least deserves kudos for his efforts in application.

Before receiving the next inevitable MMA lecture, I fully understand that even if the bottom mount person pulls off some interim success(es), the top mount may very well utilize or optimize on the attempt(s), especially if he/she is more skilled (acceding to the cross-training advocates). As before, I think most of us will agree that being in that bottom mount scenario is a bad place to be, and the odds are stinky. Still, a chance is a chance, and buying time generally seems better to me than riding idly through a meat grinder.

It is unlikely that you will ever see me attempt to write so much concerning ground fighting again. Let us all pray for as much, LOL.

I think it's fairly your turn now, Knifefighter. With your in depth experience in ground fighting and whatever other things you practice, what might you do from the bottom mount with those elbows raining down? I am always interested to learn and expand my understanding, especially by virtue of those with greater experience in a given area. Tomorrow, my perspectives may be different.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Knifefighter]

Elbows are absolutely devastating, especially when launched from the mounted position. I have personally seen elbows landed on unprotected faces on several separate occasions and each time they were immediately disabling. Trying to redirect an elbow is a fool’s game. An elbow thrown with full power development will many times go right through a redirection attempt. At the very least, it is only a postponement of the inevitable.

From a groundfighting perspective, there are a variety of ways to keep damage to a minimum while working for escapes from the mount. One of the most common is known as the upa, or bridge. With this method, the bottom person bumps the hips up, disrupting the top person's balance and forcing a hand to be planted for a base. Once the arm is based, it is wrapped and the opponent is rolled up and over towards the side of the trapped arm. This either brings the bottom person to the top, or allows for another of several other escapes.

[kj]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
From a groundfighting perspective, there are a variety of ways to keep damage to a minimum while working for escapes from the mount. One of the most common is known as the upa, or bridge. With this method, the bottom person bumps the hips up, disrupting the top person's balance and forcing a hand to be planted for a base. Once the arm is based, it is wrapped and the opponent is rolled up and over towards the side of the trapped arm. This either brings the bottom person to the top, or allows for another of several other escapes.

Thanks for your reply. Not only do I respect that, but ironically I appreciate the "Wing Chunness" of it - direct, and disturbing of the whole person.

FWLIW, your proposed solution (upa) came up during our playing around. One dilemma we noted is that even slight spreading of the knees encouraged the opponent to wedge in for a leg lock. I remember seeing someone get choked out pretty easily from that position, among other hazards. Seems nothing's foolproof.

Simply covering from elbow strikes is a problem too. You can hope the guy doing the pummeling tires himself out, but it seems unlikely the covering arms will last long before going numb or worse. Not to mention that the arms can't cover the head's entire surface area, while the opponent has free reign to change strikes and angles. And that's just the openings on the head.

Everything has advantages and disadvantages, and sometimes you just have to try and buy opportunity or time. I respect you ground guys and your game. Me and my joints aren't built for the practice in any serious way, and it remains on my list of places not to go with bad people when I can help it.

Well that's way more than too much ground-talk from me. Turning it back over to those of you who actually know what you're talking about. Always gotta ask "What would Helio do?"

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

P.S. I can't help but presume you guys use multiple simultaneous movements at times (similar to Wing Chun), and not just one thing at a time.

[yuanfen]

The "bridging" concept is there in wing chun- no importation is necessary- the key is understanding it and using it at the right time and place. The seed corn of lots of seemingly unorthodox movements are there in biu gee.
In the old days biu gee was taught late or not at all depending on student and other factors- length of time- quality of exposure etc.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Kathy Jo:

I've mentioned this before on a previous thread - and it addresses the issue here as well...Another way to try and reverse the situation if you've been mounted, and the opponent is punching down at you or throwing elbows...picking up on what I posted previously here about "using some striking/blocking as part of a bigger grappling escape strategy"....

It starts with keeping the hands/arms/elbows front and center trying to protect against the blows - but not very extended away from your body as you will be vulnerable to a transition by your opponent to an armbar...

While bridging your hips up (the upa that Knifefighter described) at the moment an elbow is coming down (bridging mostly with the hip opposite the side he's attacking on) - and hopefully blocking his elbow with your forearm/elbow area - you will disturb his balance...and if he's forced to post an arm on the floor - you can try what Knifefighter said as an attempt to roll him off...or you can try what I'm about to say - and by the way - if he avoids having to post an arm by sitting up somewhat off your body to avoid being rolled...you can try this as well:

In both scenarios he's now vulnerable to a downward elbow strike from you to his groin as both your arms are closely positioned to do this...to be followed immediately by grabbing his arms and attempting to roll him; because, as I said earlier - your main objective is to get out of there - not to try and beat him with strikes from the bottom.

[kj]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
It starts with keeping the hands/arms/elbows front and center trying to protect against the blows - but not very extended away from your body as you will be vulnerable to a transition by your opponent to an armbar...

Yes, per my many [too subtle] disclaimers, even our little experiment illustrated the risks of an armbar. I already see that you have to be very careful in giving too much to work with. Same is true in standup, though with everything so close and quick on the ground, there seems to be less room for forgiving.


While bridging your hips up (the upa that Knifefighter described) at the moment an elbow is coming down (bridging mostly with the hip opposite the side he's attacking on) - and hopefully blocking his elbow with your forearm/elbow area - you will disturb his balance...

Yes. This is precisely the sort of thing I had in mind with my "P.S." about employing multiple simultaneous movements.


your main objective is to get out of there - not to try and beat him with strikes from the bottom.

I couldn't agree with you more on this point!

Thanks for the suggestions and food for thought. I'll try to experiment with these more next time we have "play ground" time.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[fa_jing]

Well I'm no JJ student, but I would still like to point out that it can be done (ideally) by rolling him towards the side where a hand is NOT posted on the floor - your opposite leg from this direction bends and you place the foot flat on the floor, so you can push against the floor using your leg to create the rotational force. Your other foot, on the same side as the direction your trying to roll towards, should ideally be placed on the outside of the mounted person's calf or ankle so that he "trips" over it as he as rolled - and can't easily move the leg out to base himself.

It's not high percentage (against a skilled grappler) but still this is your best chance of escaping a mount.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by kj
FWLIW, your proposed solution (upa) came up during our playing around. One dilemma we noted is that even slight spreading of the knees encouraged the opponent to wedge in for a leg lock. I remember seeing someone get choked out pretty easily from that position, among other hazards. Seems nothing's foolproof. I'm not sure what you mean by spreading out of the knees, but if you are talking about the top person spreading his legs to base out and prevent the roll, that's where one of the other escapes comes in. Usually when escaping the mount against someone who is good at maintaining it, you have to chain several different techniques in a row.

BTW, the person on the top is the one who is most vulnerable to leg locks. The bottom person is usually relatively safe unless he/ she traps the top person's leg like fajing was suggesting.

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I've only just now been able to view the clips in their entirety and I still have my same criticisms of WC, especially where specificity of training is concerned.

Kickboxing, boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai, Judo, freestyle wrestling- the stuff they use for real will bear a close resemblance to what they practice.

Doesn't anyone else find it ironic that none of the techniques used in any of the fights looked anything like the demonstration at the end of clip 01?

No, you're not the only one that thought that. To be honest the groundfighting some of these guys did was better than most of the standup I saw. (I saw a couple of rear naked chokes with leg hooks applied). The "funniest" scene was the guy against the way with his shorts halfway down. ;)

I saw a couple of halfway decent stop kicks, no straight blasts and no discernable defensive moves. I saw a couple of traps, but those could only occur because the arms of the opponent were WAY over extended.

Note, these aren't the "first" WC sparring clips I've seen or even the best. But most have been roundly disappointing so far. (The only notable exception to this rule has been a clip I've seen of Shannon Moore sparring).

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
YYlee,
OK I see. I listened again. the 'Kung I' in the subtitles was a Mandarin Romanization for Gung Yee. Thanks again for correcting me.

KingMonkey,
It did look to me like the White Crane guy was using his system.

Two questions.

1) Which was the "White Crane" guy? Was it the one that kept throwing "hammer fists" like the old man in Tekken Two, or the one throwing the "windmill" punches on occassion? ("Windmiller" had a halfway decent hook kick, but "hammerfist" kept throwing this pathetic looking front kick.)

2) Is there any doubt in anybody's mind that a boxers with one year of training (or less) would have torn either of these two guys apart? (And before I get cruxified I'm from the "Wing Chun can help in a fight" camp).

Regards,

John M. Drake

[kj]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I'm not sure what you mean by spreading out of the knees,

I'll give it the old college try to describe.

Starting position is on one's back, knees bent. When the pelvis is raised (e.g., "bumping up the hips" or "upa"), the knees tend to separate in degrees and depending on how close or far apart the feet are.

The separation of the knees in turn provides enough space for the mounted opponent to wedge in. I imagine that degrees of knee separation is impacted somewhat based on typical male vs. female pelvic anatomy.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by kj
When the pelvis is raised (e.g., "bumping up the hips" or "upa"), the knees tend to separate in degrees and depending on how close or far apart the feet are.

The separation of the knees in turn provides enough space for the mounted opponent to wedge in. OK, I understand the knee separation. Now I don't understand the "wedge in."

[Phil Redmond]

The WhtC guy was the younger, thinner guy that kept wiping his nose after he was hit.

[Merryprankster]

These are the very best CMA sparring clips I've seen since coming here nearly 2.5 years ago. A little clean-up needed (who doesn't), but can't fault either the aggression or willingness to go at it.

Nice stuff. Nice work. My only comment is that almost all the guys put in a bad spot tended to stay in a bad spot. When they lost their momentum and were put on the defensive, they stayed there. Nasty habit that. You can't just cover up and stay in front. Get offline and whack 'em back.

Truly excellent clips, IMO. Wish there were more places doing this everywhere.

[reneritchie]

KJ - Has anyone in your group ever visited or worked out with Kyle Saunders? I watched him compete a couple months ago and was very impressed with his technical skill.

MP - How are you doing?

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
KJ - Has anyone in your group ever visited or worked out with Kyle Saunders? I watched him compete a couple months ago and was very impressed with his technical skill.

No, this is the first I've heard of him. I've often wondered why we never hear anything about BJJ in our local area. Thanks for the tip.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[reneritchie]

http://www.saundersbjj.com

He's a Roy Harris brown belt. They seem to be very concept oriented.

[kj]

Got it, René. We'll let him know about our annual WC & MC Picnic in case he or some of his folks would like to join us.

Regards,
- kj

[reneritchie]

Cool. What does the MC stand for?

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Cool. What does the MC stand for?

It stands for typo.

s.b. "MA".

Sorry 'bout that <sg>
- kj

[reneritchie]

LOL! No worries. :)