8 Elbows

[MantisCool]

May I know who has learnt the classic 7* Ba Zhou? It has about 50 moves and it consists of only 1 form, no no.1 or no. 2. I am interested to know their lineage too! I will disclose my knowledge of the passage of the form from Shanghai to Hong Kong/Malaysia after knowing which lineage and from where their sifus learnt it.

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantiscool,
I did a poll on this form some years ago.
It might have been erased in the mainframe move though.

I learned from Mantis108, Ilya Profitilov and Zhuang Zhr Ching.
The Liang Xue Xiang lineage.
I don't think anyother lineage has this form.

It is usualy broken up into 2,3 or 4 sections.

HK 7* also has this form name, but competely unrelated to the old ba zhou.
Some there call it ba zhua-8 claws.
My shrfu, on friendly exchanges with Lee Kam Wing in HK taught him the 1st section of Mimen ba zhou.
That oversion is from Zhang De Kuei.

Some schools change 8 into tyrant, still called ba zhou as ba can be tyrant.

It is changes made up of ba duan-short parts of the body.
Funny thing is definition of ba duan is very different among the different schools.

[mantis108]

I completely agreed with Tainan. Although I would love to see the other versions that he mentioned.

"It is changes made up of ba duan-short parts of the body."

I agreed with this wholeheartedly. Also I think it has to do with the ability to do the suddent and abrupt changes from long to short. This is due to the footwork. I also think that CCK TCPM's upper routine of 8 elbows can be liken to mantis (the insect) fighting, chopping and hacking away, with its arms; while, the lower routine is more subtle relatively to the boldness of the upper routine.

Anyway, as far as I am aware GM Liang's Bazhou form is quite a long form.

Mantis108

[Young Mantis]

Mantis Cool,

There was indeed an old post regarding 8 Elbows (Baht Jow). Try this thread:
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=18128

YM

[mantis108]

Thank you, Young Mantis for posting the link. I have almost forgotten about that discussion. There are some interesting info indeed.

Now back to the discussion at hand.

I submitted a short article about it to the Mantis Quarterly. I hope to follow up with a more indepth one sometime it the future. I think the importance of the Bazhou form from a TJPM perspective would be 3 folded.

1) it has great historic value specific to Tanglang

2) It has great theorectial value as well as it reflects the continuation of previous dynasty's (Ming) close quarter fighting perspectives.

3)it has great technical value unique to Tanglang

It is understandable that some lineages prefer to keep it away from public eyes.

I am very much interested in your insights about your 8 Elbows, MantisCool. Thanks

Mantis108

[HouZiPiGu]

I'VE ONLY GOT 2 ELBOWS BUT I FIND IT'S ENOUGH

[MantisCool]

Ours here is called 8 elbows or " Ba Zhou". You all would be surprised where we learnt it from!

Our form was taught by Chan Chen Yi or CCY. He is my sifu's Si Pak ( Wong Kam Huang's Si Heng). He taught my sifu when he visited Penang with his wife in the 1960's.

For your information, Lou Guang Yi also doesnt know this form! Chan Chen Yi was in turn taught by Ma Cheng Xin! The one who won a fight in Nanjing,1929. And Ma Chen Xin learnt it from his Si Pak. I think he is the one who taught with LGY in Shanghai. My sifu will have to check out the name for me.

My Si Gung then sent the forms in photo to WHF in Hong Kong. It is common knowledge that most of the Si Pak or Si Sok Gung in HK couldnt get along.

I am wondering why I never heard CCY's disciples learning it? Didnt CCY passed the Ba Zhou to them?

Our Ba Zhou's opening is completely different from the Zhai Yao. The first step is moving the left leg to the SouthEast when we are facing the West and raising the right leg to form "Golden Chicken Single Stand" or "Yau Tai Tui". At the same time, we used the left hand to grasp down and right hand to grasp up, both of them ending in a "tiu shou" The move is like a "Chor Chui" albeit instead of 2 fists it is 2 tiu shou.

I counted the number of Zhou in the form and it totalled 8.

We practised it in totality not ba duan or whatsoever.

[Tainan Mantis]

Here is part of 8 Talons.
Listed in this book as 7* Bazhou.
I had to write it out by hand because I couldn't make a copy of the book.

This form I have seen and looked at closely.
It can clearly be seen to have a beginning similar to Zhai Yao.
Not related to what is popularly thought of as Ba Zhou.

[Tainan Mantis]

Same book.
This is the Zhao Zhu Xi version of Ba Zhou or TJPM as taught in HK.
What is very peculiar is that the form has been rewritten in WHF's style.

I don't know why that has happened, but this author has done the same to some PM forms that are unique to Taiwan, such as 8 Step Mantis' Lipi, which were written in a very different style as well as quite a few of the other TJPM forms.

This version of Ba Zhou, definetly Ba Zhou, but has some unique markers setting it aside from all other versions of Ba Zhou and can most definetly be traced to Zhao Zhu Xi, Mantis108 Shrfu.

[MantisCool]

The 2 forms you listed are not the same as ours. It is good to unified the stroke names so that eveybody can understand and the message can get across better.

In fact, LWK's listings is better with an additional left or right forward step shown and also the turning. whereas WHF's Quan Bu lack these clarification when without the pictures.

I think the version you learnt is TJPM and ours is the 7* PM.

[Young Mantis]

The Baht Zhao form taught to me by my Sifu, Tony Chuy of the Brendan Lai/Wong Hon Funn lineage has 51 moves. The beginning of the form is as follows:

1. right leg hanging stance with a right reverse mantis claw strike
2. right bow stance with a left reverse shooting mantis claw strike
3. right 7 star stance with double mantis grab to the rear
4. left 7 star stance with left upward elbow strike
5. left medium stance with double grab

The form ends with a left kneeling stance upward block and punch followed by a tiger riding stance lifting palm.

This form is similar to the TJMHTL Ba Zhao that I have seen. Most of the sequence is similar enough that they are clearly the same form although there are stylistic differences overall. The flavor of the two forms is vastly different although the sequence is recognizably similar.

YM

[MantisCool]

Right YM, our move is similar to what you mentioned. Our 5th move is followed by:

6. Jump forward left hanging stance with a right hammer.
7. Left bow stance with a Guo Lou Shou (in claw form instead of punch)

but our ending is a left bow stance with left upper block and right straight punch (where the thumb is facing up like in "Bu Chui") and followed by a tiger riding stance and lifting palms.

So it seems we have the same form.

But the Form mentioned in LWK's book on both the TJ and 7* Ba Zhou are different!

[mantis108]

Well, I agreed with Young Mantis' input that the openning is similar to the greater Meihwa community's Bazhou version. But the length at 50 moves seems a bit short. My gut feeling tells me that it could be the first and perhaps even second section of Bazhou (considering the form as 4 sections). BTW, first section ends in the minor stance and double helping. This is on the manual of Zhang Bingdao.

I also agreed with Tainan that there are "markers" in the CCK TCPM Bazhou form that is different from the other versions.

Mantis108