Applying Gan Sau

[marcus_pasram]

Hi,

Here (http://wingchunnyc.com/html/action/gan_lap_lower_palm.htm) is a technique that shows the application of Gan Sau Lap Da with follow up.

Video clip (http://wingchunnyc.com/techniques/java_animations/gan_lap_pak_lower_palm.htm)
SiFu Allan Lee's explanation (http://wingchunnyc.com/html/action/gan_lap_lower_palm.htm)
/marcus

[Phil Redmond]

Almost right out of the Jong. :)

[Grendel]

Originally posted by marcus_pasram
Hi,

Here (http://wingchunnyc.com/html/action/gan_lap_lower_palm.htm) is a technique that shows the application of Gan Sau Lap Da with follow up.

Video clip (http://wingchunnyc.com/techniques/java_animations/gan_lap_pak_lower_palm.htm)
SiFu Allan Lee's explanation (http://wingchunnyc.com/html/action/gan_lap_lower_palm.htm)
/marcus
If this series was done with the horse connected to the hands, then it would be more effective and dominating/controlling of the opponent/partner.

The absence of such a body connection implies to me that a woman couldn't do it against a strong man, therefore, it violates the ideal of Wing Chun training.

Regards,

[marcus_pasram]

Originally posted by an anonymous poster "Grendel"

If this series was done with the horse connected to the hands, then it would be more effective and dominating/controlling of the opponent/partner.

The absence of such a body connection implies to me that a woman couldn't do it against a strong man, therefore, it violates the ideal of Wing Chun training.


So you're saying that the small defender who evaded, intercepted and controlled his larger and more powerful adversary with a counter attack combination that sent the attacker backwards violated the ideals of Wing Chun because you think a young woman couldn't use the strategy of evasion, coverage, torque, distance, coordination, timing, control of the adversary's balance and simultaneous offense and defense?

/marcus

[Grendel]

Originally posted by marcus_pasram


So you're saying that the small defender who evaded, intercepted and controlled his larger and more powerful adversary with a counter attack combination that sent the attacker backwards violated the ideals of Wing Chun because you think a young woman couldn't use the strategy of evasion, coverage, torque, distance, coordination, timing, control of the adversary's balance and simultaneous offense and defense?

/marcus
Hi Marcus,

I would suggest that if the counter attack had also had good structure behind it, then a woman could expect to successfully do it.

Regards,

[Keng Geng]

Agree with Grendel. It's hard to say if that technique would work given the agressor isn't all that aggressive.

[Ernie]

marcus

if the dude can pull it off , great not really worried if a chick could pull it off against a bigger in the real world if the size difference is great and the aggression level is high no matter how good a girls structure is she will get folded , same if it's a small man

that being said

i got to side with grendel and keng

reason for the '' wing chun structure '' you can't break the hip
once the person's head dipped forwad the hip line gets broken so you lose your tranmission to the ground

to compinsate the person kicks in his upper body and the torso twist
i could see from the clips he was cutting using this rotation power , this made the whole flow appear to be chasing hands a bit and not cutting inwards with structural support

it looked more filipino then wing chun , like close quater blade work

will it work that way i'm sure it does if the footwork and timing is right
just giving you a view from a wing chun filter

if you go to http://rooftop.ho8.com/SifuGaryLam.wmv and look towards the end of the clip gary does a pak sau po pai but the motion is very similar to gan sau po pi if you want i might be able to dig up a clip with gan sau po pi and explainations as well just let me know

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Ernie
i could see from the clips he was cutting using this rotation power , this made the whole flow appear to be chasing hands a bit and not cutting inwards with structural support Agreed too much rotation. It seems to be going too far past the opponent's shoulder line. The second gan sau is fine except that based on the first one, in reality he would not have had a chance to do the second one. After the first gan sau, a simple left shoulder strike/shove from the aggressor would send the other flying.

[mr. jai]

[QUOTE]Agreed too much rotation. It seems to be going too far past the opponent's shoulder line. The second gan sau is fine except that based on the first one, in reality he would not have had a chance to do the second one. After the first gan sau, a simple left shoulder strike/shove from the aggressor would send the other flying.[/QUOTE

correct me if i'm wrong, but i did not see a second gan sau. i did see a lop da after the gan sau. perhaps keng geng is referring to a different clip?:confused:

[wonkee]

IMO your interception was off line and your other hand was unnecessarily in the low gaun sao. If it was higher in a neutral position then you could more directly hit your aggressor as the intercepting arm brings the attack down.

I don't think it matters whether a chick could do it. I also don't think you should blindly follow the dummy techniques.

I guess what i'm really saying is your "defence" and attack were not even close to being simultaneous.

[mr. jai]

marcus,
after viewing the video clip for approx. 10mins., i tried the same scenario out with one of my friends. i told him to really attack me with 2 punches. on the lop da, i almost broke his arm,and since he was really coming in to attack, i struck him in his family jewels on the last part. i didn't really try to hit him there, it was as if he walked into it.:confused: i guess what i want to know is 1: did i do the technique right?
2: are you guys going for real? or you guys know it's
gonna hurt your partner, so you don't go for real.
thanks

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by mr. jai
correct me if i'm wrong, but i did not see a second gan sau. i did see a lop da after the gan sau. perhaps keng geng is referring to a different clip?:confused: Oh yes, you're right in one sense. According the the text it is a lap sau. According to what I saw it looks like a second gan sau, which makes more sense to do because it's quite hard to pull off a successful lap sau from a detached position. Also, the first move if it is a gan sau, should have less rotation and more focus/intention on the opponent. As a result it looks more like an attempt at gau sao, which should be executed closer to the opponent for it to be successful. In either case, either the gau sau or the gan sau, done correctly would better facilitate po pei sau.

Another aspect of the problem is the forearm padding. Because it's there, one can rely too much on being protected by it that one loses sight of having to correct the technique. If you feel the clashing at the bones you know right away how you need to correct your movements.

[marcus_pasram]

Mr Jai,

I'm swamped w/ work and other stuff and haven't had time to continue this discussion.

The first lesson I had with my SiFu he told me "Don't belive what I tell you. Try it yourself; do your own research to find out the truth."

I'm glad you're trying the technique to determine its merit. After all if you don't try it for yourself, how will you know? Theory works until you really try it ;)

Regarding your questions:

1. I don't know if you did it "right" because I didn't see you do it. But it sounds like you're on a positive track.

2. When someone is learning a technique for the first time, because we're kung fu brothers, we don't attack all out. We allow the defender to digest the technique; slowly giving him/her more pressure until they can handle real attacks. We also use protective equipment such as armpads and shin-pads to protect ourselves. This is for the protection of the attacker in the technique, because we agressively counter attack the opponent's weapons... and since we take turns attacking/defending everyone wears the pads.

I notice you're in New York City. Please accept my invitation to visit our school and we can explore the technique in person. Its a lot easier than writing messages back and forth. Send me a private message to make arrangements.

I'll be jumping back on the forum a week or so later.

/marcus


Originally posted by mr. jai
marcus,
after viewing the video clip for approx. 10mins., i tried the same scenario out with one of my friends. i told him to really attack me with 2 punches. on the lop da, i almost broke his arm,and since he was really coming in to attack, i struck him in his family jewels on the last part. i didn't really try to hit him there, it was as if he walked into it.:confused: i guess what i want to know is 1: did i do the technique right?
2: are you guys going for real? or you guys know it's
gonna hurt your partner, so you don't go for real.
thanks

[mr. jai]

Holy Moly
Marcus,
Thanks for inviting me to your school! It was an eye opening event for me. To actually observe the class and then participate was wonderful. I now understand why everyone in the class wears pads ;) . Everyone was helpful and non political in their training. Again thank you very much. I can clearly see the difference and have a better understanding of coverage, and offense & defense simultaneously. I'm definitely looking to join if at all possible.
Mr. Jai:p

[mun hung]

IMHO - the videos just don't do the technique justice. I know the technique and it is still hard to follow from the video.

As far as the pads are concerned - it's a necessary evil when drilling back and forth - back and forth. There was a time when we trained without them and there were just toooo many injuries.(attackers) Losing training partners that way really sucks.

As far as a diconnected lop sau is concerned - not hard at all. I used to suck at catching baseballs when I was a kid, but practice, practice, practice.

Haven't been on the forum for a bit, but I see that I haven't missed a thing. ;)

Peace.

[TenTigers]

"if the dude can pull it off , great not really worried if a chick could pull it off against a bigger in the real world if the size difference is great and the aggression level is high no matter how good a girls structure is she will get folded , same if it's a small man "
"Yat -yeurng, Yee-lik, Sam -Gung-Fu" -meaning, First Courage, second power, third technique. If you have power and/technique, but not the courage to use it, then it is useless. Likewise, if you have little power, and no technique, but courage, you will still kick serious arse-just look at a badger. We all know people who although they have no training, are totally sick berserkers and wouldn't want to mess with them under any circumstances. Therefore, I don't think it matters if a woman is smaller in size, just so long as she has the wherewithall to use it (um, that would be Bawlz/courage/guts/rage/etc) she will certainly be effective.

[Ernie]

would you send your mother off to a fight with that mindset

or you sister

i have stood infront of a female professional fighter [ kathey long ] and i know she could terminate me , so don't thing i doubt a lady can handle herself

but i unless my mom or sister had those skills i would tell her to scratch bite and scream and run like hell never go toe to toe with a alert angry dude if your outsized

the beautiful thing about a woman is she doesn't have a macho ego . so getting the heck out of there won't effect here self image

but getting here head smashed in or raped might have a bit of effect

i just have a problem pumping some one up , better worse case
but that won't fill school i guess

just my 2 cents

[TenTigers]

My mother? No. My sister-if she's off her meds, yep. In a heartbeat.

[Ernie]

lol

[Knifefighter]

All I know is that if someone twists and gives me his side like that, I've got an easy takedown.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Watched this video about a dozen times...came to the conclusion that it's not a realistic fighting situation - because given where the wing chun fighter moves against the first punch thrown with the left hand - why on earth would a good boxer/fighter throw the second punch - the low straight one with the right hand?

At what target? The wing chun fighter is too far to the side for the attacker to realistically follow with such a body shot.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Oh yeah - and one more thing...

Dale Frank, Steve Ewing, Knifefighter, Bugs Bunny...whatever name you're going under this week:

The Wing Chun fighter is the one who is on the left flank of the attacker after the first punch is thrown - so that it makes no sense for the attacker to throw a second punch - as I just described in the previous post...But one more thing is also for sure...

The guy who threw the punch DOES NOT HAVE THE SIDE of the Wing Chun fighter in order to safely go in for a takedown...it's just the opposite facing situation between them...hence the lack of real target for the second punch....or a safe takedown attempt.

[Gangsterfist]

I had a similar discussion about gan saos and di bong saos with one of my kung fu brothers the other day. I find that di bong saos are more realistic for me to pull off against low punches, and knife attacks. We have been practicing knife fighting in class lately. I find this probably because I am big on body movement and rotate a lot when fighting. As in like glass body techniques.