Tales of two teachers...

[mantis108]

I think thutn asked some really good questions on the other thread. I would like to give my impression regarding the 2 teachers namely Lee Kam Wing and Jon Funk. BTW, both are well established teachers and published authors.

First and foremost, I formed my opinion with information that I gathered with the help of those who are willing to share with me. I must stress that this is only my opinions of 2 individuals. This is in no way critisim, personal attack nor favoritism.

I have met Jon Funk during early 80s while I was in Vancouver. I don't believe he would remember who I am. I visited then Al Cheng's (Jon Funk's teacher) training place with my mentor Galen Fok. We are from CCK TCPM. What I understand is that Al Cheng and Jon Funk would carry a Wong Hon Fun perspective. I have seen some material (video tapes) of them since then through a good KFO friend.

I have been following the development of Lee Kam Wing through material available such as his books & articles and chatting with members here such as Sifu Brian Bateman, German Bailung, etc... My understanding is that GM Lee is of Chiu Chi Man perspective.

So bascially we are looking at 2 different perspectives both came form GM Luo Guangyu.

My impression is that Jon Funk seems to have some ideas unique to his situation in dealing with tournament circuits here in the North American market. This is IMHO reflected in the program that he offers on his website. Frankly, I have great difficulty in relating to his designs from a methodology point of view concerning developing Mantis Kung Fu. Having said that I must clarify that this doesn't mean that I could not relate to WHF's material. I have no trouble in understanding WHF's work and I can get a general sense of what he was trying to achieve.

On the other hand, I am deeply impressed by Lee Kam Wing whom I believe to be a person always seeks to grow with traditional values. This might have to do with his particular situation as well. He does have a enormous network of TCMA friends. I formed my impression about him, first with his book "The Secrets of Seven-Star Mantis Style". I believe that book really is (or was) the insights of LKW. I can easily relate to all the aspects that were discussed in that book. Then I looked at material shared by some of his students mentioned above. BTW, I am also looking forward for his new book that is to be release soon. I must also clarify that I know very little of CCM and I have not read any material that is by CCM.

The fact is I think both teachers have innovations of their own. I believe Jon Funk injected ground fighting ideas (of an undetermined source to me) and other stuff into his material which I wouldn't think is a bad idea if handled with care. Especially, if it is being work thoroughly through with mantis theory and all. The wooden dummy practice in LKW's teaching is unique IMHO. However, I strongly believe that how much or how deep an understanding as well as repects of tradition will be reflected in one's teaching. In today's market driven economy, it is extremely hard to strike a balance. Perhaps a compromise has to be made but such compromise is like stepping on the tiger's tail. It should not IMHO be a step taken lightly. It would be quite a dangerous enterprise without traditional guidence.

Perhaps one day, if and when I meet any of them, these impressions would be very different. At this point, I would just like to share my opinion with all.

Mantis108

[MantisCool]

From what I understand, LKW is a traditional type of person, meaning what he teaches is what he was taught by CCM. This means, he is passing down what he was taught and didnt changed the style at all!

Regarding the wooden dummy, I think he doesnt has one from CCM. It is just a must to have one in the Martial world to make the style all rounded! His student demonstrating to me there and told me that they hasnt has one and its just his own creation (the student).

Althought, I dont know any, I also want to learn to make myself all-rounded as well!

[mantis108]

Thank you for the input. Really appreciate it. :)

<<<From what I understand, LKW is a traditional type of person, meaning what he teaches is what he was taught by CCM. This means, he is passing down what he was taught and didnt changed the style at all!>>>

I agreed with your observation. By innovation, I don't mean that he changed the forms and such.

<<<Regarding the wooden dummy, I think he doesnt has one from CCM. It is just a must to have one in the Martial world to make the style all rounded! His student demonstrating to me there and told me that they hasnt has one and its just his own creation (the student).>>>

As far as I am aware, LKW has shown that he works with the wooden dummy in both of his books. There may not be a form per se. But working on the wooden dummy he does or least he gave the impression that he does. In fact in his book "Secrets of Seven-Star Mantis Style", he showed a technique "method of the power-forcing fist and propping kick" (p. 146 - 148) which traditionally can be done on a tree trunk. I have not heard of his student(s) make up wooden dummy forms or any form for that matter.

<<<Althought, I dont know any, I also want to learn to make myself all-rounded as well!>>>

I hear you certainly. We make use of the wooden dummy in CCK TCPM. In fact, I am planning to build on what we already have ( the wooden dummy form with the Wing Chun style dummy). I have been researching to build or purchase a CLF lever dummy and go from there.

Best regards

Mantis108

[MantisCool]

<<<As far as I am aware, LKW has shown that he works with the wooden dummy in both of his books. There may not be a form per se. But working on the wooden dummy he does or least he gave the impression that he does. In fact in his book "Secrets of Seven-Star Mantis Style", he showed a technique "method of the power-forcing fist and propping kick" (p. 146 - 148) which traditionally can be done on a tree trunk. I have not heard of his student(s) make up wooden dummy forms or any form for that matter. >>>

As I have said, LKW doesnt has a form to teach. It is just a creation of a few types of combination to work on a wooden dummy. What I meant on the student is that, he told me he (the student) created a few strokes (not form) to work on the wooden dummy and anybody could do that with some imagination and LKW didnt teach any. Maybe just a few steps or tips to keep the students going.

[mantis108]

First of all, thank you MantisCool for the clarification and taking the time sharing your views. Really appreciate that.

I agreed with you that there isn't a wooden dummy form in LKW's material. It doesn't have to be.

I have not met Sifu Lee in person (I would love to). I could only get impressions from publicly available material about hm. I would like to say that I have great respect for him as a traditionally trained master who has contributed and continues to contribute tremendously to the mantis community.

For the record, I am NOT trying to quote from books or material to make myself look learned. I DO NOT intend to pin any personal opinion, whether perceives as good or bad, to such a great master, or anybody for that matter, of our beloved art. It is not in my nature to use personal opinion as a personal attack for my own personal gain. As far as I am concern, all stylists, no matter big and small, novice and advanced, are equally important in my mind.

I hope I do not give the impression that the term innovation means that something is lacking or someone is not well-rounded.

Innovation IMHO does not equal harmful element to traditional training. Innovation based on actual experience and insight is in fact the nurishment that keeps traditional training vibrant. Especially when the insight comes from the framework of TCMA.

Innovation to me is building on something in existance. It is just that. Whether it is good or bad, it is in the eyes of the beholders.

Certainly a master of the art can do whatever he sees fit with the art. He is entitled to do so. I understand and appreciate your input and insight, MantisCool. Thank you for sharing with me.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 108,

Indeed innovation permiates Tanglang. Both of these sifu are known for their insight and innovation with respect to the art they were given.

Personally I believe firmly that every teacher innovates, some in small ways, others with sweeping changes. Either is acceptable, in my opinion, so long as the teacher is clear as to what is "traditional" up to that point and what is their own "innovation". If an innovation survives for generations, it will be considered a "tradition" in its own right, rather like Tai Chi Tanglang or HK Tanglang.

Excellent topic,

Steve Cottrell

[MantisCool]

Oh! I am just tryng to share with the others what I heard from the horse's mouth and nothing else.

I didnt comment about the term "innovation". What I meant is that, LKW is a conservative man and his forms are exactly those handed down to him by CCM, full stop.

I agree that eveybody should be innovative in the sense that we should break down the forms and analyse its strokes and practise them through san shou to see its applicability.

On the other hand, we should also look into other's good points and incorporate into our own.

And thank you too for your input and sharing your insight with all of us here. I have learnt alot from your contributions as well as from the others since joining this board!

Innovation on the forms should not change the forms with the whims and fancies until they are distinctly different from the rest of the communities. It should also not add something extra! IMHO, innovaton should be modestly done only and only after great consideration and only by those with vast experience and also within the boundary of the mantis arts

[MantisifuFW]

Mantiscool,

Sorry, perhaps I was not clear. I was only speaking in terms of innovation where it might be interpretations of technique or addition of technique to one's applications.

In terms of changing forms, I could only see this in the most extreme cases. This occured once before in recent history with Master Luo Guangyu as he incorporated Qixing, Meihua and Guangbang into his sets. I believe that Master Chu Chuk-kite also innovated in sets when he added the Mook Jong to his Tanglang. However, men of such stature and profound understanding are rare in history and so should such changes be.

Great to hear from you,

Steve Cottrell

[MantisCool]

Hi! Steve

Quote:
Sorry, perhaps I was not clear. I was only speaking in terms of innovation where it might be interpretations of technique or addition of technique to one's applications. Unquote

I totally agree on this point. It is on the interpretation and addition of technique to one's applications. The forms should remain untouched albeit the introduction of someone's better point. That someone are masters of other branches within the same school. This is because maybe their grandmaster are better learned than ours and absorb more of the essence from our common Si Gung!

[mantis108]

I would like to thank you both MantisCool and Sifu Cottrell for the great input. I really appreciate the clarifications that are made. It is great to see positive momentum in discussion. Thank you, my friends. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108