Hey CLF guys...

[Gangsterfist]

whats up, I have got some questions for you guys. I am currently training in wing chun and taiji. I am now considering cross training in Choy Lay Fut. I have read up on some of the concepts and principles behind it, and think its overall a very good system.

My intention is to start CLF training in about 2 more years probably. I need to root myself in my current arts a bit more before I take some more cross training on a serious level.

So, how many of you have cross trained with CLF? It seems to me to be a very versitile and adaptable martial art, so its very tempting from a cross training point of view. Plus I think its beatiful, which is not needed but helps. How hard did you find cross training? Did you gain lots from it? I hear and read that there are over 100 forms, which even include drunken sets?

If you are a purist and totally against cross training, then please do not post. Not to mention it would be somewhat arrogant and ignorant to be a CLF practitioner and think so, because of the history of CLF and how it was created. It was a cross train style that was a combintation of two families kung fu.

However, I do respect the right for everyone to have their own opinion, so please share it; but in a constructive manner please.

Thank you in advance for all of your thoughts,

GF

[Mika]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
whats up, I have got some questions for you guys. I am currently training in wing chun and taiji. I am now considering cross training in Choy Lay Fut. I have read up on some of the concepts and principles behind it, and think its overall a very good system.

My intention is to start CLF training in about 2 more years probably. I need to root myself in my current arts a bit more before I take some more cross training on a serious level.

This is a good idea, waiting. I salute you for the maturity and patience :)

So, how many of you have cross trained with CLF? It seems to me to be a very versitile and adaptable martial art, so its very tempting from a cross training point of view. Plus I think its beatiful, which is not needed but helps. How hard did you find cross training? Did you gain lots from it? I hear and read that there are over 100 forms, which even include drunken sets?

There are over 200 forms, so you can keep yourself busy with those, if you'd like.

If you are a purist and totally against cross training, then please do not post. Not to mention it would be somewhat arrogant and ignorant to be a CLF practitioner and think so, because of the history of CLF and how it was created. It was a cross train style that was a combintation of two families kung fu.

Now, there you contradict yourself, though. You ask people not to pass judgment, yet you pass judgment yourself...:D

However, I do respect the right for everyone to have their own opinion, so please share it; but in a constructive manner please.

Thank you in advance for all of your thoughts,

Cross-training...the term of the new millennium, really. Well, if you are looking to become a great overall fighter, cross-training is good. But I would maybe choose some simpler methods where you can learn actual fighting from the get-go and not have to worry about stances and forms and such so much. If you aren't looking to cross-train to become a good overall fighter (MMA-style), then I am not sure why you would cross-train. I mean, I don't see the long-term benefits of it. Sure, it is good to know about various styles, so you can fight them better.

But that's just me. Experimenting is good, I am all for that. The chances are that in the long run, though, you will make a decision to stick with one art only. Just thought I would let you know that.

Go for it! :)

GF

[Gangsterfist]

It was not meant as a judgement I would just appreciate constructive responses thats all, and thanks for yours.

My first glance at CLF was from my sifu, who was taught some basics by his sifu (my sigung). My sigung is a master at wing chun, a black belt in okinawan karate, a master of taiji, and a master of CLF. By master I mean he is certified to teach all those martial arts.

His main MA is definately wing chun. I have made the same decision as well for the most part I think. Wing Chun is what I will root myself in.

I don't want to compete, but I think training different styles definately builds more attributes to one person. Attributes can usually be applied to anything. So I am not only gaining more martial arts knowledge, but I am also gaining physical and mental attributes that be applied to things beyond kung fu. The fact that my sigung is definately a master of wing chun, but fluent enough in other systems to teach them is my inspiration I guess.

I know my sigung (from what I have been told by his students) likes to blend taiji into his wing chun and eventually teaches it that way. I know taiji forms, could possibly compete as a taiji artist in competition but my heart and soul lies with wing chun.

Anyways I appollogize for that comment earlier for it being confusing, and I thank you for your input.

[Mika]

No need for any apologies, I was just teasing you....:D

Okay, now I see where you're coming from. Then it's different, of course. Style hopping (or forms collecting) is very different from focusing on one style and learning others on the side. If you have a main style - or will have one - then learning other arts as way to deepen your MA knowledge is a very good idea, IMHO.

Now, you say you're going to start learning Choy Lee Fut in the next two years or so. In that case, I see nothing but positive effects. By that time, you will have enough MA experience that you can distinguish between certain styles, their principals and fundamental techniques. That would serve a good purpose, IMHO.

What will you gain? Well, WC and CLF are so very different (both original Shaolin arts, btw) from one another that anything is possible. To put simply, you will probably learn from one what you cannot learn from the other. Make sense? ;)

Good luck! :)

//mika

[Gangsterfist]

Yup makes total sense. I just thought I would touch base with some of its practitioners first to see how they view the system.

Thanks for you input,

GF

[Ben Gash]

I used to train WC and Choy Li Fut. In the end I found WC boring and now I just do CLF :) Once you get used tp the waist turning it becomes very difficult not to do it.

[Clfhs4life]

i tried a bunch of differnt styles before i came to clf. now that ive seen what its capable of was no going back for me. :)

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Clfhs4life
i tried a bunch of differnt styles before i came to clf. now that ive seen what its capable of was no going back for me. :)

What other styles have you studied and for how long?

[blooming lotus]

yo GF!


nice choice and props for the committment :D ;) :D

[Clfhs4life]

Ive only trained offically shaolin kenpo and long fist at a school besides Clf. I based my decision personally for me from what ive seen from freinds and there instructors in BJJ, muy thai, WC, sambo, Tkd, karate. All have their strong points i just personally feel Clf has the most well rounded training and i can personally do more damage with it. I personally love how almost all clf movements can block strike at same time depending on situation so u can just flow with your attacks. just my opinion what works for me might not work for some one else

" the truth of combat is what ever works for you and makes you happy"
- me unless i heard it somewhere else and dont rember :p

[Gangsterfist]

Heh, I got another question.

When I was exposed to it (CLF), this guy from NYC (I forgot his name) came down and showed us some stuff. He was whipping his arms in a windmill type motion, and you could litterally hear the wind break as he swung. They were really fast swings. The concepts behind the strike were the shoulders acted as the pivot points, his arms were like ropes, and his fists like rocks.

So then there was discussion of how to defend that type of attack. We talked about biu sao and taan sao, but in reality the best defense was a side step, or possibly a swallowing technique. This was because the arms like rope concept. where if you tried to block it the arm just wrapped around yours and you still got hit? Kind of like how a morning star (ball and chain) will wrap around a shield and strike someone in the back.

What exactly is that technique, and how would you really describe it? Is that arms like rope, fists like rocks saying usually used?

Anyways I was pretty d@mn impressed!

[Clfhs4life]

the swiming motions make your arms like bats u can either deflect attack here is a link of a few clf forms ive found on the net. hope u enjoy 8)
http://www.floridakungfu.com/johnwm.wmv
http://www.floridakungfu.com/fiveanw.wmv
I train under master tat mau wong and i coudlnt be more happy with the style and my training and ive looked at most of the well know styles. its works in real combat situations ive had to use it before.

[Clfhs4life]

err i meant swinging but now that i think of it swimming freestyle can probally help your clf power a lot. enouf talk from me for now time to go train :)

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Clfhs4life
Ive only trained offically shaolin kenpo and long fist at a school besides Clf. I based my decision personally for me from what ive seen from freinds and there instructors in BJJ, muy thai, WC, sambo, Tkd, karate. All have their strong points i just personally feel Clf has the most well rounded training and i can personally do more damage with it. I personally love how almost all clf movements can block strike at same time depending on situation so u can just flow with your attacks. just my opinion what works for me might not work for some one else

" the truth of combat is what ever works for you and makes you happy"
- me unless i heard it somewhere else and dont rember :p

Cool, I agree with your logic. There are no superior systems, there are really only superior fighters.

I also like the simeltanious attack and defense techniques. Wing Chun has many of those as well. I have several years experience in Okinawan Karate as well. I was almost a brown belt when I had to quit cuz I moved. I would like to go back and pick it back up and get my black belt one of these days.

To me wing chun is my bread and butter because it fits my body and my abilities and I seem to naturally advance faster in it than any other art I have taken. I also train Yang Taijiquan at the same time but its more like a supplement to my wing chun. I blend somethings from taiji that I really like. Plus there are many other things that I benefit from practicing Taiji. Not to mention all the taiji training is very combat useful and perhaps I am better at beating taiji guys at their game now that I know their system. However, I have not proven that.

CLF, seems appealing and I would like to seriously train in it. I think I am going to work harder with my wing chun in the next two years so I can feel that I am at a more advanced level. Then I can start over with something new. I will still train my WC, infact if things work out right my sigung will be teaching me CLF. However, I don't know if he would teach it or not. He is very knowledgable in so many systems but loves his wing chun hehe.

[Clfhs4life]

ya its better to have one style down instead of a bunch of almost good techniques. i dont thik any oen should even consider cross training til they have a very firm foundation.

[Fu-Pow]

You can think of the upper power generation in CLF as a large ball in the center (waist, dan tien) with two smaller heavy balls attached to it on the ends of stretchy rope (your fists). You have to maintain some outward tension in the ropes or the two smaller heavy balls won't be able to go anywhere. Once the center ball starts moving and adequate tension (not too tense, not too loose) is maintained the two outer balls can start to move. When they start moving they are very difficult to stop and so it is very easy to overpower your opponent with a barrage of "heavy handed" techniques.

In addition, the diameter of the rotation of the two smaller balls can change suddenly and this adds extra outward force to a technique, also known as "snap."

This is one strategy of CLF and it is the one that most are familiar with and looks the most impressive. However, CLF also has other "bridging" type strategies where you make contact to your opponent and stick to their structure, strategies to upset your opponents balance, destroy the "bridge" strategies, knee and elbow strikes, leg attacks, joint manipulation, pressure point grappling and attacks and also short linear techs.

Over all CLF is a very comprehensive martial art.

[Gangsterfist]

Cool, good post man very informative. Being a Wing Chunner myself I am totally familiar with sticking.

I also like the CLF upper cuts as well, and their foot work. I totally agree that CLF is a complete system.

Okay next question:

Conditioning? What kind do CLF guys go through? I saw this 2 man drill where they are hitting each others forearms. This is suppose to be like iron body type training so to speak to condition the forearm for hard strikes. I then saw a CLF guy mess around with one of our WC dummy and he was making the thing shake pretty good with hard forearm strikes. So what conditioning do you guys do with your CLF, and do you think the conditioning is required and to what extent is it required?

There is also a CLF dummy too right? I will save that for my next question.

Thanks again for all the info I appreciate it,

GF

[Fu-Pow]

In order for your CLF to be really effective you need to hard condition the tops and sides of the forearms. In addition the palms, tops of the hands and knuckles which are used for striking. The shin also need to be conditioned because they are so sensitive but are potential targets in an attack. This is usually done by rolling something down the length of the shin.

In my school we do Da Sam Sing "Three Star Blocking" drills (the excercise you are refering to.) In addition, dummy work, knuckle push ups, heavy bag work and some iron palm bag work.

Iron body training should taken on slowly and gradually. The goal is to strengthen and toughen your skin, bones and joints. The more immediate effect of the training is that it makes your nerve endings recede further into the skin and this creates less pain upon hard contact. However, this can cause a problem if the student goes too hard too fast and his bones and joints are not up to the task. I had a classmate who went too hard with an much older student and snapped his forearm. He didn't even feel anything happen.....he heard it snap!!!!
]
The appearance of the conditioned body parts should look deceptively "normal." In any kind of iron body training Dit Da Jau "Hit Fall Wine" should be used to treat bruises and prevent calcification. (However, my Sifu cautions against its overuse as it could potentially soften the bone and make them more likely to break.)

Here's a good article from clfma.com which goes into more detail about this type of training.

http://www.clfma.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=110&POSTNUKESID

[Gangsterfist]

Fu-Pow-

Your posts are well thought and very informative, thanks.

I train some internal iron body stuff with taiji at the moment so I am familiar with the aspects. I also use dit da jow when working with the wing chun dummy and put it on bruises. You are also correct (from what I have been told and read) in saying too much iron body can make the bones brittle. I totally agree with your statement about pacing yourself. There is no such thing as instant kung fu.

I am a definate believer that any good martial artists will do some sort of conditioning outside their art (i.e. push ups, ab work outs, cardio, endurance, etc).

Now when you mentioned tension earlier it kind of confused me. I understand using miminal tension which some people call intent, but from a Taiji and Wing chun perspective tension is bad. So I know I am just not understanding the hold little tension thing you mentioned. However, it did perk my intrest. How is tension viewed in CLF?

Also, btw thanks for letting me pick your brain. If you have any wing chun questions I will gladly answer them best I can.

GF

[Askari Hodari]

Hey Gangsterfist I'm kinda late posting to this topic but I wanted to go back to your initial post.

I trained in WC for about three years before I started studying CLF. I continue to study both. What I've liked most about CLF is the way that it generates power and its dynamic angels of attack. This latter component has been invaluable for me in sparring matches. I've also found that CLF accomodates a range of combat that is occasionally difficult to engage from with WC. I've found myself using yum tsop, gwa, and sao while still being able to stay beyond the offensive/defensive range of my opponents. What often has happened is that even if I am within my opponent's striking range that the multiple angels of attack provided by CLF makes my trajectory impossible to anticipate. Thus reducing their ability to defend against my strikes.

And as much as I like WC I have a very difficult time not using CLF about 40% of the time. In fact I've grown quite content with the marriage of these styles.

Askari Hodari

[Gangsterfist]

Askari,

Thanks for the info bro. I have not studied CLF yet, but do know a few CLF techniques and have used them before in sparring all basic ones of course. CLF does look like a system I really want to learn, but I am going to wait till the time is right. I picked up Taiji with my wing chun already and I think it has definitly helped out my wing chun.

BTW, what lineage of WC do you study, if you don't mind me asking?

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Fu-Pow-

Now when you mentioned tension earlier it kind of confused me. I understand using miminal tension which some people call intent, but from a Taiji and Wing chun perspective tension is bad. So I know I am just not understanding the hold little tension thing you mentioned. However, it did perk my intrest. How is tension viewed in CLF?

GF


Well, I was thinking about this very issue this morning as I was walking to work. The power generation in Taiji and CLF is actually very similar. Both use the waist and spiral action to generate and deliver power. Both contain "hard and soft." Much like wing chun also contains both "hard and soft" movements. In fact most Chinese arts have this concept of "hard and soft" which stems from Taoism and the concept of yin and yang.

However, as you may well already know, the major difference in an art like Taiji is that all the "corners" in the movements have been "rounded off." The movement has no clear cut beggining and end, so there is always potential for the movement to change into something else. When there is no "start" and "end" to the movement then there is also no mucscle tension. It does not mean, however, that you are "limp." It means that the hardness is always contained inside through your alignment thru the bones and joints to the ground. The way the body is used in Taiji fits with it's strategy of "stick" and "listen" to your opponent and help them to unbalance themselves, tie themselves up in knots or put themselves in an unfavorable position so that you can blast them with one of the "four corners" (kao, zhou,cai or lie.)

In CLF (unless you know the internal forms) there is always a start and stop. The movements are not "rounded off." There is a start and stop and power is issued in every strike. It takes some muscle tension to start the movement and some tension to stop it. In between start and stop, however, you are not "limp", nor are you tense. Like in Taiji there is some "connective" tension carried in your arms. (We had a student in the school one time who didn't get this concept. He flailed his arms around like they weren't connected to the rest of his body. It was "limp", not relaxed.) Anyways, the strategy of CLF is mainly to barrage your opponents with a flurry of hard hitting strikes and kicks. It is not as subtle as Taiji, although at the higher levels I think that it can be.

I'm not making any discrimination as to which is a better art. Only saying that the body use and the strategy follow each other. And I feel very lucky to have been exposed to two knowledgeable teachers who know these arts very well.

Peace.

[Gangsterfist]

Fu-Pow,

Now you have me even more curious about CLF energies. I have been taking Taijiquan Yang family for a while now along with my wing chun. Wing Chun energies are usually pretty much directed straight at your opponet at angles. The are circling motions in wing chun, infact there really are no straight lines its more like fine, or small archs. There are no disconnected strikes (like a wind mill strike) in wing chun. There are forward energies and splitting energies that are mainly used in wing chun. The idea behind it is putting constant pressure by sticking to your opponet and switching the strikes. You can split energies as well, like placing your foot behind someone and then pushing on their head straight back while sweeping your foot forward (just used that as an example).

In Taiji there are also direct, indirect, splitting, roll back, pushing, whipping, warding off energies, etc. Taiji is not as direct as wing chun is, because it does not really concern itself with punching and kicking. Taiji is all about controlling the yin and yang energies. IMHO, taiji by principles and concepts is one of the better martial arts out there. That is becuase you can almost always apply a taiji principle to fighting even if you were standing on your head. Where other martial arts concepts are more specific and refined to be effective in only certain manners and situations. Which is not a bad thing at all, I mean who would fight on their head to begin with right?

I was told once to be loose but with intent, not like a wet noodle. In Wing chun there is always that forward intent where you are always slightly pressing towards your opponet.

So constant attack and overwhelming your opponets is one of CLFs principles and perhaps what its known for. What energies are mainly used with CLF? Obviously this is a real broad question and probably cannot be answered very easily, but if you could just give me a little idea I would appreciate it.

Thanks,
GF

[Askari Hodari]

Hey Gangsterfist. In regards to your question about my WC lineage...my sifu trained under Steve Swift, who trained under Simon Lau, Yip Chun, Yip Ching, and Wong Shun Leung.

Askari Hodari

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Askari Hodari
Hey Gangsterfist. In regards to your question about my WC lineage...my sifu trained under Steve Swift, who trained under Simon Lau, Yip Chun, Yip Ching, and Wong Shun Leung.

Askari Hodari

Sounds like you have good lineage. Wing Chun is a really great art, I just think its like a lot of martial arts, and not taught how it should really be taught. Once you find a good sifu though, man wing chun is such a beautiful art, concept, and philosophy in the art of combat.

I am from the Yip Man system, and know a few things here and there from the sonny tang system.

Do you still use some of your wing chun training? How does it blend with your CLF?

[Askari Hodari]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist


Sounds like you have good lineage. Wing Chun is a really great art, I just think its like a lot of martial arts, and not taught how it should really be taught. Once you find a good sifu though, man wing chun is such a beautiful art, concept, and philosophy in the art of combat.

I am from the Yip Man system, and know a few things here and there from the sonny tang system.

Do you still use some of your wing chun training? How does it blend with your CLF?

Gangersterfist,

Yeah WC is still the core of my style. In fact like yourself I’m still training in WC. However, CLF though has forced me to rethink some basic dimensions of combat.

For instance I still appreciate the centerline theories and simultaneous block/strike sequences of WC. I’ve found that WC is invaluable for fighting in close quarters. Biu Jee/Biu Sao is definitely a core asset within the context of multiperson fighting. Also, I’ve really been exploring how to use gaan sau, bong sau, man sau, ton sau, and the continuous center line punch as defensive techniques in response to ground fighters.

What CLF has compelled me to think about is how to generate power and how to approach multiple angles of attack. I’ve tried stuff like blocking with a kam/pak sau, followed with a continuous center line punch, followed by a yum tsop to the abdomen, and an uppercut. Not to say that you couldn’t do this in WC, but in this technique CLF’s yum tsop, when executed from a leaning horse stance can put you at a greater distance from your attacker. Following this with an uppercut (pow/jong) allows for you to use the waist twist from horse to front stance and to generate power.

I’ve also practiced and applied sequences where I’ll block with a man sao, grab the arm and pull them in, deliver a barage of centerline punches to the face, and follow it with a gwa choy (swinging back fist) and kup choy (slapping fist-usually a follow-up to a gwa). This allows for you to not only take advantage of your opponent’s attack to pull make them even more vulnerable. But by following up with a gwa and kup I take advantage of their forward momentum and can move my attack to the outside...thus maximizing my defensive posture.

That’s why I said earlier that the marriage of the two styles for me has been really useful.

Out of curiosity, how long did you study WC before you started Taiji?

Askari Hodari

[Gangsterfist]

I have got almost 3 yrs of wing chun and 8 or 9 months of taiji. Before that I have had 3 years of okinawan karate, and a few months of judo and akido here and there.

However, my sifu started teaching me taiji form work and principles almost from day one of wing chun. Taiji has always been seen as a supplement style with the people I train with. Mainly because wing chun mentality of winning a fight versus taiji mentality. Only recently in the last year has my sifu really emphasized taiji. It is a great style to learn and is all around great training.