skill vs conditioning

[Simon]

I've read many posts on this board and many websites where people have talked about employing Wing Chun without requiring conditioning (stamina, strength, toughness etc)

just wanting to start a discussion about this.

after seeing my Sigung in action at a recent seminar I can see the skill he has from spending a lot of time training basics to the point of perfection - a process that would definitely increase fitness etc in the way he trained/trains.

i know that WC using smart positioning (of the body in respect to the opponent and of the body parts) etc but:

does WC need conditioning?

[Ernie]

simon

i'm sure you will get a few colorful answers

but think of it this way , you use your body to express wing chun , the better tuned your body is the better it will perform very simple

but even more important is this , you should not be in shape for your martial art you should be in shape for your quaility of life

now i'm sure the over wieght couch patato nut bags will try and say wing chun chun and steroid filled body buliding is no good


being in shape has nothing to do with steriods or trying to be a body builder . people like to draw extremes to make themselves feel better

being fit for your health is more important then any art or form or pak sau

here in america obesity is almost the leading reason for preventable death

can't do good wing chun if your dead :D

problem is wing chun is so effeciant you get lazy , so you see alot of high skilled people that coldn't run up the block to save there lives

and sadly they might have to run up the block to save there life
ironic but true

:D

those with damaged egos can insert insults and feel better remarks here:cool:

[Simon]

sounds like you have a great attitude towards training.

personally my general wing chun training keeps me fit, off the couch and enjoying life. the mind conditioning has helped me everywhere in life and (as cheesy as it sounds!) improved my enjoyment of life outside the kwoon as well as inside.

i just see MA training as having a conditioning component inherant in it - which may be a bad assumption on my part :)

[Gangsterfist]

I work out and try to keep good physical shape. I am no where near prefect shape because I have too many bad habits still, but I have cut some of the really bad ones out a lot in the last year. I no longer smoke, quit cold turkey. I eat healthier diet. No more fast food, unless I am super super super broke (taco bell can save lives when you can't afford real food).

So If I keep this up in a few more years I should be in extremely good shape. I think that the key is to set humble goals, and when you reach immediately up the stakes on yourself as a new goal. It gives you the sense of success and is a strong motivator.

Stength, endurance, conditioning are all attributes that can be applied not only kung fu, but a lot of other things in life. Both mentally and physically. So being in shape and training hard means higher pay offs.

You know I used think it would be awesome to be super rich, life would be totally easy. Then I realized how hard rich people really worked. Now there is always an exception, some people get really rich fast and can pay people to work for them and reap the benefits.

This can also be applied to the logic of kung fu. Working hard and keeping in shape doesn't mean you will have less skill, but it definately helps you reach your goals faster. There are also exceptions, some people are natural at it and do not need to train as hard as others.

If I were to have to bet on a match between two fighters that both practice the same style from the same teacher for the same amount of time, and one conditioned themself physically and stayed in shape, while the other one just trained and did not physcially keep in shape, my money would go on the one that put more effort and work outside their art, to make them better at their art. (I think that might be a run on sentence LOL)

[fa_jing]

I think that the ideal build for most MA is that of a decathelete. Power, speed, suppleness.

[Phil Redmond]

Ernie is right. Being is shape is just common sense whether you're doing karate, tennis, volleyball, kung fu . . . . . .
You especially need conditioning so that you don't fold up under pressure. My students who do 2-3000 punches per class then block/punch kick combos, etc., are getting a 'little' conditioning.

[Lindley57]

Simon,

Many other styles, to be successful, require some level of conditioning. Wing Chun does not need conditioning. Conditioning is not Kung Fu. The Kung Fu is the foundation, not the absolute. Being a well conditioned "athlete" can be an advantage for any style. However, your Sigung demonstrated that the Kung Fu is more an intelligent martial art, which does not depend on physical conditioning.

Good luck with your Kung Fu!

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Lindley57
Simon,

Wing Chun does not need conditioning. Conditioning is not Kung Fu.

Study the origin of Kung Fu. ;) Wing Chun was developed to "FIGHT" the oppressive Manchu. The dummy and the pole are some examples of the conditioning inherent in Wing Chun

[PaulH]

Ernie,

Why you troublemaker...If I can manage to stand up and move away from my computer screen I'll teach y...(Cough! Cough!) a less...(Cough! Cough!) on. I'll kill y...(panting hard with rapid pupils dilating) a! That's all. =)

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Lindley57
Simon,
Many other styles, to be successful, require some level of conditioning. Wing Chun does not need conditioning. Conditioning is not Kung Fu. The Kung Fu is the foundation, not the absolute. Being a well conditioned "athlete" can be an advantage for any style. However, your Sigung demonstrated that the Kung Fu is more an intelligent martial art, which does not depend on physical conditioning.

This is the attitude that gets most WC guys 'wrecked' when they go against other martial artists. It's also one of the reason I've found in my 34 years in Wing Chun that most other styles laugh at WC. Some think that WC is a magic pill where you can be effective with out any effort. Even practicing chi sau requires conditioning.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond

Study the origin of Kung Fu. ;) Wing Chun was developed to "FIGHT" the oppressive Manchu. The dummy and the pole are some examples of the conditioning inherent in Wing Chun

I think they meant special conditioning outside of wing chun. The condititioning you get from the dummy and long pole are only one of the benefits. The conditioning is kind of like an added bonus. You are still learning more of how to fight more than you are conditioning your body.

Some styles don't rely on conditioning and are very effective. They train moves and techniques that do great damage with little effort. This in return does have a bad effect on some of its practitioners. Sometimes you will see over or under weight and out of shape martial artists due to lack of physical conditioning. That is bad kung fu IMHO.

Hard work is what makes your kung fu good. Hard work includes: physical work outs and exercise, endurance, hard training (practice everyday), and always train the maximum range. That will make you a good martial artist reguardless of your MA style.

[Phil Redmond]

Gansterfist,
>>I think they meant special conditioning outside of wing chun.<<

I hope you're right about that. The question is do all WC schools cover enough aspects of stamina/conditioning?

[Ernie]

paul

Ernie,

Why you troublemaker...If I can manage to stand up and move away from my computer screen I'll teach y...(Cough! Cough!) a less...(Cough! Cough!) on. I'll kill y...(panting hard with rapid pupils dilating) a! That's all. =)


don't trip over all those empty pizza boxes or mc donald happy meals :D


[[Originally posted by Lindley57
Simon,

Wing Chun does not need conditioning. Conditioning is not Kung Fu. ]]]

what is your definition of conditioning ?

and what harm is there in being conditioned ?

you don't work for the fast food company's do you


:D

[KingMonkey]

I think your take on this is likely to depend on whether you have divorced the concept of WC from fighting and realistic self defence as a surprising number of people seem to have done.

Good physical attributes will act as a multiplier to your base fighting ability as surely as having good skills.

Pursuing good WC skills and high levels of physical conditionning are not mutually exclusive. Anybody who thinks so is likely to have little understanding or experience of training for functional strength and performance vs a more stereotypical body building style regime.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Lindley57
Simon,

Many other styles, to be successful, require some level of conditioning. Wing Chun does not need conditioning. Conditioning is not Kung Fu. The Kung Fu is the foundation, not the absolute. Being a well conditioned "athlete" can be an advantage for any style. However, your Sigung demonstrated that the Kung Fu is more an intelligent martial art, which does not depend on physical conditioning.

Good luck with your Kung Fu!


sigh... :(

[Ultimatewingchun]

Wing Chun does not need conditioning ???!!!

LOL.

[KenWingJitsu]

:o
after seeing my Sigung in action at a recent seminar

Um... lol. I can look great or in great shape if I were giving a seminar...I can look great for hours so, what kind of "action" did you get to see at a "seminar"?

[anerlich]

Lindley57 is incorrect.

If Kung Fu is about working and training, it is also about conditioning. top endurance athletes have excellent Kung Fu.

If you don't train hard enough in WC to positiively affect your general fitness ... you don't train hard enough. Kung Fu should affect your quality of life for the better across the board ... if I want to be able to defend myself without hard training, I'll invest in firearms, not WC. If WC is about "investing in yourself", and you remain a fat loser, then you need to fire your broker.

I think Scott Sonnon of ROSS says it best:

There are three parameters of performance, skill, strength and conditioning.

If your attributes in two of those areas exceed those of your opponent, you are more likely to win.

[Simon]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
:o

Um... lol. I can look great or in great shape if I were giving a seminar...I can look great for hours so, what kind of "action" did you get to see at a "seminar"?

:D sarcasm alert!!!

i'm sure you can!

I was inspired to train harder after seeing my Sigung move. I see now that if I want to attain that level of coordination I will have to train harder - which is what I am trying to get at by starting this thread. as some with some of the previous replies, I believe that proper skill training for combat (whichever arena) will inherently include body conditioning

[Ultimatewingchun]

Simon:

Your sigung - William Cheung - who is also Andrew Nerlich's sigung, and who is also my sifu and Phil Redmond's sifu...is now 63 years old. He's still in pretty good shape - but conditioning was always a big part of his Wing Chun program...always. I have some video (as does Phil) of him performing when he was about 35 years old...and he was incredibly conditioned - as he was when I first met him - just 2 months before his 43rd birthday.

Wing Chun Kung Fu without conditioning is a straw man - if you ever have to use it against a fighter who is in shape.

[Simon]

Ultimate: jealous - would really like to see some earlier footage!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Simon:

Go to GM Cheung's website and link up to Keith Mazza'a school in New Jersey. Keith might still have that video for sale - if it's not already sold out - I don't really know for sure.

[Ernie]

william cheung in shape , yep and i'm not from family and i totally respect the man for not just living off the fat but staying fit .

hawkins is another man that is very fit , dude still has ab's and he smokes ?

it just says something about a person when they stay in shape especially as they get older , it's a matter of self respect

dan inasanto is another one of the sixty and over in great shape

from what i have seen phil is in good shape as well but i doubt phil is in the sixty and over crew .:D

now i just got to get gary to start running and sparring to lose a few pounds ha ha ha

but honestly could you even really consider your self a martial artist if your all sloppy and out of shape ?

[sticky fingers]

Originally posted by Lindley57
Simon,

Many other styles, to be successful, require some level of conditioning. Wing Chun does not need conditioning. Conditioning is not Kung Fu. The Kung Fu is the foundation, not the absolute. Being a well conditioned "athlete" can be an advantage for any style. However, your Sigung demonstrated that the Kung Fu is more an intelligent martial art, which does not depend on physical conditioning.

Good luck with your Kung Fu!

This kind of arrogance will be your undoing my friend

Look at it from a different perspective.
Take Michael Schumacher, the best F1 driver around.

Does being the best mean that his driving skills are so good he will never crash and therefore have no need for a crash helmet ? No
Does he still screw up sometimes? of course. He's human too.

So let conditioning be your crash helmet as you drive along the wing chun racetrack.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Another Ernie quote to remember:

"But honestly, could you even really consider yourself a martial artist if you're all sloppy and out of shape?"

Let's frame that and hang it in the doorway to this website.

[Tom Kagan]

First, everyone should be aware that I know Lindley57 personally. However, this post is not meant to defend him. The post I am writing now is my thoughts. Lindley57 does not need me to speak on his behalf, nor would I try.

Second, everyone should be aware that Lindley57 is in very good shape and works hard to maintain it.

Third, if everyone would re-read his entire post, it should be clear that Lindley57 does place importance on what is better described as athleticism.

Fourth, I interpeted Ernie's first post as saying the same thing as Lindley57, though, obviously, in a quite different way. The questions Ernie asked in the second post leads me to suspect that he actually understood, at some level, what Lindley57 was saying, and was trying to confirm whether that was true or whether Lindley57 is just nuts. :) (Since I can't speak for Ernie, either, he is welcome to hammer me if I misunderstood him).

With all of the above said, in my opinion, Lindley57's statement, "Conditioning is not Kung Fu" is, in my opinion, correct. Conditioning is not KungFu! It is a result.

A systematic process set up in a learning progression to bring a beginner from relative "out-of-shape" to being "in shape" would be the KungFu.

Being in condition should be no more considered as KungFu as a well executed PakDar - that is also a result.

A systematic process set up in a learning progression to bring a beginner from his or her raw, inate ability to hurt, maim, and kill, to it becoming an art-form would be the KungFu.

Any KungFu in any area of life, while possibly impressive on its own, is really just foundation. Being dependant on it, while it is definitely a result (hopefully a good one), is, in and of itself, not very good. Any foundation just brings you to a point where you are better able to see what you now want to do.

To use a metaphor from an entirely different field from martial arts, a musician cannot improvise if they do not know how to play. Do not confuse the method with the result.

[Martin Foot]

"Your best hold is your conditioning " Tony Cecchine

[Ultimatewingchun]

Martin:

Frame that too !

[Ernie]

crimson
next to a photo of WSL lol

which photo would that be ?

hmmm and what would your photo look like :)



Tom

[[The questions Ernie asked in the second post leads me to suspect that he actually understood, at some level, what Lindley57 was saying, and was trying to confirm whether that was true or whether Lindley57 is just nuts. (Since I can't speak for Ernie, either, he is welcome to hammer me if I misunderstood him).

hammer ? me ?never :D

skill is skill conditioning is conditioning

i just don't see why it's either or , that's all
you may never get into a fight in your life but you may spend many hours a week practicing your fight skill

but you use your body every day for everything which should hold priority ?

this goes way beyond system or lineage it's just common sense
problem is it deals with self image so people get all huffy
but if you can't be honest with yourself , then what are you basing your skills on ?

[Ultimatewingchun]

The Future of Wing Chun: MMA talk has to bow to this thread for the moment because HIGHER EMPHASIS upon conditioning really has to be part of the WC future, IMO. If Wing Chun is a great horse but few can ride it is true...and I think it is...then one of the reasons for that is precisely because so many WC instructors/schools don't do the proper "fighting" conditioning program required - not an exact march-in-step program - but some sort of regimen that all achieve the same goal...You've got to be in shape.


Cardio/pushups/situps/stretching...etc. Perhaps some weight-training, perhap any number of things too numerous to mention right now...Bottom line? It's got to be done.

This thing about how the skills acquired from doing forms/chi sao/punching/kicking...whatever - will put you in shape...ergo - no need to supplement with extra conditioning...

Come on, now. That's not reality. What level of shape are we talking about here? Do you or do you not want to be capable of fighting for real against a skilled opponent if you had to? If the answer is yes - then today and tomorrow's world will require you to be in excellent physical shape: strong/flexible/endurance conditioned through cardio work.

[Ernie]

good one victor

and what would be the worst thing that can happen
you get into shape and improve the quality of your life
gee that would suck

i got a page talking about it on my site http://rooftop.ho8.com/combatcondition.html

and i'm sure this section will grow with time , it comes right down to having honesty of self

if your sifu is in shape great if he is not fine , it comes down to what you put on yourself not how the other man lived .

back to that saying i like to use [ take responsibility for your own personal growth ]

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Simon
Ultimate: jealous - would really like to see some earlier footage!
Sifu Mazza does have the "Lost Footage" tapes for sale. It shows old 8mm footage converted to VHS, of William Cheung when he went back to HK to show his WC brothers the forms he learned from Yip Man. And it even has a HK style movie fight scene. Contact Sifu Mazza at; TWCKF@aol.com for the tapes.

[Gangsterfist]

First of all Happy St. Pattys day everyone! (sorry I'm Irish, had to say it!)

Okay, how does one reach perfection? Is it even possible? The key is to be healthy and conditioned to be a good martial artists. Usually conditioning is a side benefit of taking martial arts. For example the long pole (which is a pretty heavy stick btw) and the dummy condition our bodies. When training with the long pole or dummy we also learn how to fight which is the main concern of wing chun. Learning how to fight. So what else can one do outside of wing chun to improve their wing chun and their overall well being? Cardio/endurance/strength/and special conditioning (like iron palm).

However, there is still a key to working out and conditioning outside of wing chun. DO NOT GET OBSESSED! Keep a balance, too much yin and too much yang is usually not good in the end. You must keep a balance. Your body does need rest, and your muscles need time to heal. You must have a healthy diet and have healthy habbits otherwise you are being counter-productive to all your training.

You need balance. It is very hard to do, and I am no role model for it either. I try hard to balance out my training and conditioning but we all know real life can get in the way sometimes. Especially when girls call me to go out, instead of practicing kung fu I go out with them. When I got nothing going on I will train kung fu for several hours a night, sometimes even 5 or 6 hours. The days that I cannot I don't and this way my body will get rest as well.

Kung fu litterally translates into english as: skill derived from hard work. HARD WORK. There is no such thing as instant kung fu. After 3 months of training 75% of people quit martial arts, after 1 year another 25% quit. If you have made it past that then pat yourself on the back, but remember its just the begining. You must always keep an open mind and a trained body to be a good kung fu practitioner.

Not to mention there are so many other benefits of being in shape besides martial arts. With conditioning comes skill as well. I train silly flying kicks all the time that I would never use in a real fight. However, I am building attributes by training them. So I am gaining several different things by training really low round sweeps that transition into flying kicks. It also means since I train the maximum I can minimize those movements to make more combat practical ones and you know what? I can do them easier since I was training the maximum. So if you ever see me training flying round houses that drop down into low round sweeps there is a practical reason for me doing it.

[Tom Kagan]

sticky fingers,

You mention Michael Schumacher's driving. My thought is this: It would be insane to consider driving like he does in such a vehicle without a helmet. But Michael Schumacher is already crazy to do what he does (just as a martial artist is also at some level). :) His driving is not dependant on his helmet. If, through some bizarre twist of fate, Formula One racing outlawed helmets, I think you would find that he, if he were insane enough to chose to compete after such a ruling, would still drive like a madman.


Ernie,

We agree. Athleticism is important. If I implied an "either/or," that was not my intention. I'm sorry if I caused any confusion.

My distinction was between method and result. The system, or method, is the KungFu. The result is life. There is a lot more to life than being stuck in a method.

[Phil Redmond]

Sifu Cheung went back to HK in the late 70's and he went back in 1982. I'm not exactly sure which visit the footage is from but here are some pictures at the bottom of Sifu Cheung's profile of him and WSL during the the 1982 visit to HK.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/history.asp#cheung
BTW, you should get the tape there are many wooden dummy insights on it. ;)

[Ernie]

Tom

[[Ernie,

We agree. Athleticism is important. If I implied an "either/or," that was not my intention. I'm sorry if I caused any confusion.

My distinction was between method and result. The system, or method, is the KungFu. The result is life. There is a lot more to life than being stuck in a method.]]]


no confusion at all bro :D

life is filled with high tides and low tides , some months we are fit and strong and focused , others we are lazy and relaxed . we can learn and improve our skill through it all


they key is we are enjoying life
:D

[Ernie]

phil
any way you could track any more pics of those two in action , or a better version of that one

what the hell happened to the footwork in wing chun , i know this is off subject , but in some ways it pertains

if you look at the body mechanics of both men you can see the energy and activity '' the liveness of there motions even in the stills !

now you see a bunch of friggen zombies and robots

fixed forms shuffleling to and fro trying to crash into the person with a flurry of silly punches

man that irks me

i know the twc guys are more live in there foot work , phil and victor

what happened to the rest ? ha ha i know must be out of shape chi sau competitions :D

sorry guys i had to vent it just kills me when i see some of our greats [ real fighters not mouth pieces that pretend ] showing live footwork
and i wonder were the heck did the '' frozen form '' take over

[Phenix]

wheel vesus Engine?

Nah, you must be kidding to ask this question. ;D

[Ernie]

power
can come from motion or stability and sometimes both :)
it's the end result that counts

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Ernie
phil
any way you could track any more pics of those two in action , or a better version of that one. . . .

Hey Ernie, I do but I got "the look" ;( when Sifu saw that I put that picture on my site. I didn't exactly get into trouble but he did mention something to me about putting pictures from his private collection up. So you'll have to wait until he's ready to show them to the public. I definately don't want to be on his bad side.
BTW,like I told you in an email. If some of the letters, photos, and footage he has were made public the TWC critics might have to review their opinions. But at this point in time he's not even worried about it. Nor am I.

[Ernie]

cool phil
i get that '' look '' from gary all the time , for giving to much information , so i know the feeling :)

keep me informed if your sifu ever decides to release some of that stuff , you know me i could care less about peoples political and lineage views

just want to study the body lines and angles .

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

You're opening up a can of worms when asking "What happened to the footwork in wing chun?"...

The single biggest difference that William Cheung has always said there is between what he learned from Yip Man publicly and privately (TWC)...is the FOOTWORK. All the major strategy differences (the centraline/blindside emphasis/Entry Technique...

play off the footwork.

[Phil Redmond]

Ouch, I'm not touching that one Victor. Maybe you should start a new thread.

[Ultimatewingchun]

No need for a new thread, Phil. This was all covered a year ago in the Understanding TWC thread. Not going to run away from what TWC is...just won't get into the "superior footwork" thing, that's all. Just let people decide for themselves what the merits of the footwork are after they see it for themselves.

[Ernie]

victor
looking at that picture , i see both men displaying natural foot work and working the outside and inside angle .
nothing new in the game of combat
if you showed that to a boxer or kick boxer or kali manand so on
they would say , no big deal natural motion

toss it in the wing chun gotto prove my 100/0 70/30 50/50 therry is the only way
and people get silly

all different wieghts are being used by both me in a transitional form

natural motion not rocket science
a little athletic attributes go along way

if you chose to take striaght in or come in off the 45 it's up to you and your skill level , that stuff is subject to adapt depending on the energy offered

but the motion and balance of motion thats they key

but to much chi sau will cause that natural motion to die and over compensation of the details will be born

just trips me out thats all .

[Ultimatewingchun]

You know what, Ernie ?....

LESS CHI SAO AND MORE LIVE/NATURAL FOOTWORK TRAINING should be the title of the next post on The Future of Wing Chun: MMA thread.

Where will 95% of the art be in twenty years if we don't do these things?

[Ernie]

LESS CHI SAO AND MORE LIVE/NATURAL FOOTWORK TRAINING should be the title of the next post on The Future of Wing Chun: MMA thread.



you know victor nothing mixed about it
all the footwork is there in wing chun , if you combine the pole and the knife with the regular stance stuff
the problem is people see them as static or seperate

the naturalness is in the transition from one to the other maintaining interruptable balance , yet quick explosive actions


problem is wing chun weapons training is not as sophisticated as the filipino system , now wing chun concept and theroy is very sound but the training and attribute development seems to not be pursued

whens the last time you saw people putting in a few months into pole vs. knife and knife to knife live sparring . not just a few static drills but real live sparring

the it's to deadly label will be used to death

so what do we have left chi sau and some gap closing drills or to wing chun guys trying to do the same thing to each other and rushing in crashing and pounding

no real footwork cultivation

[anerlich]

Conditioning is not KungFu! It is a result.

I disagree. Conditioning is a process, condition is a result. Kung Fu certainly applies to the former.


Especially when girls call me to go out, instead of practicing kung fu I go out with them.

Jeez, I wish I'd a had that problem a bit more often in my younger days ... of course, since getting married that particular distraction has been replaced with a whole new and more complex set of distractions.

[Gangsterfist]

Naw anerlich, mostly it just drains my wallet and I get a hug good night.

I also have this weakness called pool. Man oh man do I love to shoot the stick and play some pool.

[Tom Kagan]

I'll certainly accept your semantic distinction on the connotation/denotation of the words: "conditioning" and "condition." Since both words can be used as a noun or a verb, the words are sufficiently vague to be used, with some exceptions, interchangably.

Still, substituting your choice of language usage for mine in the fashion you describe within the postings does not change my thoughts on the subject.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Naw anerlich, mostly it just drains my wallet and I get a hug good night.


A hug? And it drains the wallet?
Not exactly following the theory of WC efficiency.

Next time, tell them you're busy looking for free sex and hang up.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Edmund


A hug? And it drains the wallet?
Not exactly following the theory of WC efficiency.

Next time, tell them you're busy looking for free sex and hang up.

Yeah, well I guess I am one of those nice guys that finish last. Not to mention I already have a girl friend and her name is Yim Wing Chun. Most all other girls get jealous and can't handle me seeing both of them. I am still young and I can seriously date women when I am older, now is time for kung fu.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Sifu Cheung went back to HK in the late 70's and he went back in 1982. I'm not exactly sure which visit the footage is from but here are some pictures at the bottom of Sifu Cheung's profile of him and WSL during the the 1982 visit to HK.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/history.asp#cheung
BTW, you should get the tape there are many wooden dummy insights on it. ;)

cheers Phil and Victor - will check it out!

________

basically I started this thread because I see the phrases on websites something along the lines of "wing chun uses superior tactics/skill to make conditioning irrelevant". i don't believe anything can be this black and white - maybe a very skillful fighter can use less energy in an encounter - but to use that as an excuse to not be in shape is ignorant in my opinion. BUT I guess it comes down to why you train.

I'm sure there's people out there that read this forum that believe that conditioning is much less important than skill and I'm searching out their opinions - I guess because I don't understand their point of view - but I'm always open to learn!

[Edmund]

Looking at your motivation, it seems like you're creating a strawman argument to object to.

Conditioning is less important than skill in the case of most sporting and martial arts endeavours.

It doesn't mean it is irrelevant. Just less important.





Originally posted by Simon

basically I started this thread because I see the phrases on websites something along the lines of "wing chun uses superior tactics/skill to make conditioning irrelevant". i don't believe anything can be this black and white - maybe a very skillful fighter can use less energy in an encounter - but to use that as an excuse to not be in shape is ignorant in my opinion. BUT I guess it comes down to why you train.

I'm sure there's people out there that read this forum that believe that conditioning is much less important than skill and I'm searching out their opinions - I guess because I don't understand their point of view - but I'm always open to learn!

[Ernie]

Ernie, I'm glad you see the funny side! But seriously, your sifu and sigung are\were 'way outta shape' - how does this fit with your views on conditioning?


just like you put it there out of shape , i ride my sifu all the time , tell him i'm going to wake him up at 5 am and make him run

he just laughs at me

wong was in great shape when he was fighting and gary was in great shape when he was fighting , the man went to thai land and trained in the thai camps those dudes are all about conditioning


being in condition is everything you said , you must have good wind , be strong ,flexable ,agile and quick
if your fighting you should be tough enough to take some punishment

as for sifu's being in shape man most of them are way out of shape , there in teacher mode , but i'm sure when they were younger if they had any fights they were in better shape

but that is an older generation and knowledge of fitness and nutrition was not even close to what it is today

[Ernie]

you know to be even more honest
i understand this is a touchy subject self image , and this might activate knee jerk reactions that people have been carring with them there whole lives

it's hard to be acountable for ones own actions i guess

but the reality is even beyond the scope of martial arts , a person must simply live ,hopefully a long and healthy enegitic life

why would you not want to be in shape and conditioned even for just the simple pleasures of , riding a bike , going for a jog , hiking
to be able to do these things with out it straining you

the reason i ride my teacher is simple i just care for his health same reason i would and do ride my friends ,family and so on

[Gangsterfist]

I agree with what ernie says. I have a much better diet now and I ride my friends for eating stuff thats not good for them, just because I care for them and want them to be healthy. I understand they like stuffed peppers and red meat and things doused in cheese and grease, just eat them in moderation.

[anerlich]

"What is being referred to as conditioning? Is this seperate from strength? How about endurance? or muscular power? what about toughness? the ability to take a hit? What exactly is meant by conditioning?"

I was paraphrasing someone else, but I assume he means a combination of endurance and tempering. The person I quoted, Scott Sonnon, is not hard to track down, he posts on several internet forums, and you could ask him personally if you are really interested.

"Once this is clarified, things can move forward..."

I thought things were moving forward quite well and most of what was being discussed was clear enough.

[Phenix]

how can one be skill without conditioning?
Doesnt make sense at all.

[Ernie]

how can one be skill without conditioning?
Doesnt make sense at all.


simple it's the illusion of skill the stuff that crumbles in the real world but looks great in demo's and fills the pages of books :)

[JAFO]

I don't know if it means anything to this discussion, but here goes anyway. I was talking to my sifu about it last night and he agrees with my assessment. I have a really good comparo for conditioning vs. technique. One of our 'juniors' and I work out together a lot. We're both the same age (within a few months), and pretty similar builds (height and weight are really close) , but he works out a lot. I mean, he lifts three times a week, rides his bike, golfs, plays competitive tennis at the club level and so on. We surf together a couple times a week too, so he basically works out almost every day.

I am not so motivated, and consequently, I'm not in nearly as good condition as he is. He's much stronger than I in many ways, including cardio.

However, he can't take me. Not on his best day can he keep up if we're both switched on. He's too good for me to get away with doing stupid things in front of him, so I don't have a huge margin of error or anything; but as long as I do what I already know how to do, he can't keep up. The difference is definitive.

At this point, he's got a bit less than 4 years and I'm at about 7. He has a pretty firm grasp on all the basics but like all of us there's some room for improvement. We don't get a whole lot of interaction with outsiders, but I've seen him take (outside) guys with lots more time in. I saw him go after a 15-year guy from one (actually a couple) of the better Hong Kong lines with no problem at all. Of course, that guy has since become one of our students and is getting a lot more competitive as he progresses, but that's another story.

So in this case, technique can beat conditioning. Would I do better if my conditioning was better or if I was stronger? Well, to the extent that *effective* conditioning done right would better enable my technique I'm sure it would. Right now, I know I couldn't stick with him if it came down to an enduro, but of course our exchanges never last that long so that aspect of it isn't an issue. The only thing that matters is if I can stick to the plan and TCOB. If we're taking a vote, you can count me in the "technique over conditioning" camp, which is not exactly the same thing as the concept of "technique over steroids".

By the way, I agree with Ernie and others that the best reason to work out is to enable a better quality of life.

[Ernie]

jafo

bro you have 3 years of flight time over him , you better shut him down :)

second step out of the wing chun bubble and think street were running climbing jumping up on cars kicking people , smashing thme into things

escaping the situation , taking abuse these things will bring the fitness factor in

think in a complete fashion

but if you just have bettter feel and timing then him you will always have a slight edge , unless his pain tolerence is higher then yours and he can just take it till you get winded :D