True Fights

[Tainan Mantis]

Someone inquired of Sun Bin,
"What does it mean to understand the way?"
He replied,
"Having foreknowledgeof victory and defeat before going into battle is what is called knowing the way.
Knowing the reason for victory and defeat after having engaged the enemy...
for this reason he understands the enemy."

Part of the recent Ma Wang Duei discoveries of pre-christian era military texts.

In the spirit of the ancient master strategist Sun Bin I open this thread for fighters to write past fighting experiences.

[Tainan Mantis]

A teacher of the internal arts wanted to cross hands with me. The following are the important aspects which I was able to use very successfully.

We. face off right stance
I. attack with a rigid right.
He. intercepts with a right.

I. use left hand to seal his right elbow and I throw a right hook.
He. left block.

I. Use my right hand to pull his block down and punch him in the chest.
He. having been hit breaks away and raises his fists.

I. repeat the scenario a few times until my right chest punch can no longer strike his chest, because he...
He. won't allow me to pull his left hand down.

I. immediately slide my left sealing hand into a punch to his other chest.

Notes:
Punches, especially for me need more power.
I used all my weight and power on these punches which he absorbed well. Better than I if the tables had been turned I think.

[EarthDragon]

Tainan,
I dont neccesarily have a fighting experience documented so well as you have done but I do have certain aspects and rules of fighting that I try to adhere to when I am in a confrontation.

1.while attacking the left , defend with the right and visa versa

2. attack high to open the low area and visa versa

3. all actions are neither defensive nor offensive

4.always change the stepping pattern

5. act dont think

6. in action thier is stillness, in stillness thier is action

7.attack and defend with the long hand and then destroy opponent with the close hand

8. one block one punch

[Losttrak]

Sun Tzu said the last possible option is seige a city. It is better to defeat your enemy psychologically and make him surrender. For instance:


When I was 19, I was a very shy kid and this "cool dewd" at work always made fun of me for it. I was a martial arts practitioner so I would have settled for a fight but I was such an easy target he never escalated it to that point. I was never the sort to hit first at that time in my life. SooOo pretty much my live was hell for a long time. Then his hot fiancee started working with us... We took an instant liking to each other. So in retaliation, I railed her like it was a conjugal visit and naturally he found out. From that point on, his abuse never really bothered me too much. =D

[Oso]

I'll get back to you a week from saturday...

I have a single, full-contact match lined up under the US Koushou rules.

we'll see...

[Tainan Mantis]

ED,
Your list of guidelines matches my thoughts.
Except number 8 maybe, but I may have misunderstood.
My block and punch are almost the same thing, so if the opponents punch is slow or weak, my block is a punch to him.

Losttrack,
You may be interested in the new Ma Wang Duei discoveries.

100 or so years after Sunzi seiging a city became a much better option.
That is because of the advent of seige machinery to overcome city walls.
Thus the walls got bigger and granaries improved, while the machinery for overcoming the walls also improved.

Oso,
Make us proud.
I thought there was an age limit of 35 on that though.
I know some traditionalists disagree, but I still think this is a good way to test yourself.

Outside fights are usually shorter, while a match fight is almost always well matched opponents who have to keep going even if they are too tired to fight.

Good test of
-aggressiveness
-stamina
-brute punching power

[Oso]

I thought there was an age limit of 35 on that though.


I lied about my age to get in. :D



seriously though...no one has brought that up. They just wanted to know overall experience in number of years and weight/size.

I'll be ****ed if I get there and I can't fight.

*edit*
it's just a demo fight, no tourney. a little odd, I know.

just looked again, there are only two fights scheduled after the rest of the tourney is pretty much done with and the other fighters are two sifus who I'm pretty sure are over 35.

One thing I've noticed about over here in the states is you don't see too many teachers stepping into the ring.

[HouZiPiGu]

Occasionally I start telling my friends about some fight I was in and then halfway through, I realize it wasn't a fight I was in, but a fight I saw in a Steven Seagal movie. Man....I gotta stop drinking so much.

[EarthDragon]

Tainan,
I was reffering to being attacked blocking the attack and then hitting so hard in a vital spot or a knockout that the confrontation is ended and my opponent cannot continue.

To me that is the most effecient strategy in matial arts. I have only been able to do that once when I was younger and it was in front of a crowd and it felt great for my ego at the time ( now of course I try not to have one) that's the buddist in me LOL but anyways I was not comparing attacking and defending since they are one in the same see #3.

But in my opinon the highest level of fighting it to be so efficient that you need not spend time on attacking, defending , countering and redirecting, when all that is needed is to end the confrontaion with minimal effort.......... hence one block one punch

[flem]

tainan,
do you remember the story of your tampa sifu in the bar and the biker dude... thats kungfu
btw, i was wanting to ask you, are there as many whack jobs attracked to kung fu in taiwan and china as there are here. the martial arts in america, as you may or may not remember, seem to be a melting pot for the... desturbed!?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
Tainan,
I was reffering to being attacked blocking the attack and then hitting so hard in a vital spot or a knockout that the confrontation is ended and my opponent cannot continue.

To me that is the most effecient strategy in matial arts. I have only been able to do that once when I was younger and it was in front of a crowd and it felt great for my ego at the time ( now of course I try not to have one) that's the buddist in me LOL but anyways I was not comparing attacking and defending since they are one in the same see #3.

But in my opinon the highest level of fighting it to be so efficient that you need not spend time on attacking, defending , countering and redirecting, when all that is needed is to end the confrontaion with minimal effort.......... hence one block one punch

that seems more of the ideal than the reality though...

[EarthDragon]

Seven star,
yes that's in a perfect world scenerio. That's why I said the highest level of fighting. Something we all wish to eventually achive someday

[Mr.Binx]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
...being attacked blocking the attack and then hitting so hard in a vital spot or a knockout that the confrontation is ended and my opponent cannot continue. To me that is the most effecient strategy in matial arts...

I have dropped sparring partners on more than one occasion, though not often, with the very first attack thrown. More often than not it involved a solid strike to the solar plexus (with heel, knee, knuckle, or elbow) or a grazing strike to the groin (with toe, knee, or ridge-hand). I have only successfully dropped an opponent on the first strike in two instances with strikes to the face.
I haven't been in full-contact sparring for well over five years or so, but more often than not I would throw a shot to one of those three locations and then, if deflected, throw second shot to whichever of the other two areas is the least guarded. The solar plexus shot has, by far, been the most successful for me personally as an aggressor. The groin hit comes in at a close second. Although last on my personal list of effectiveness, the face shot did have the most instantaneous effect in stopping the fight. The groin and solar plexus shots required me to step back and just avoid my opponent for roughly 2-3 seconds before the pain or lack of oxygen would catch up with them. The face hit had the yucky side-effect of causing excessive bleeding on both ocassions though, which ruined the idea of anymore sparring with that same partner for the day.
At the time, my greatest flaw was lack of stamina and inability to escape from a grapple while in an unbalanced position. The opportunities and weaknesses changed radically with each individual faced. I see a big flaw in my old tactics, as they were all linear. The ability to keep these tactics and work around that flaw is the second most important thing that caught my eye after watching a single 2 hour class of tanglang. I began training there a week later. :D

[Tainan Mantis]

One punch and it is over, in my fantasy.
It has happened twice in my life that I recall(not counting unskilled opponents).
But it helps all the more to have a lot of power in the strike.
I imagine I could end fights with one punch all the time if my fist was the pound per square inch equal of a bucking bronco's back kick.


Flem,
I don't know the story. I think that happened after I came to taiwan.
Can you tell it?

[Oso]

ok, I do have a 'one strike, it's over' story...

summer 1982...been doing hung gar for about 4 months...

I was at a pool at the apartment complex where my teacher lived.

we had just worked out and were chillin' at the pool.

btw, I'm between my 9th and 10th grade year at high school.

so, this guy intentionally jumped on my while I was in the pool.

I get hammered in the back by both his feet and go under.

as I get out he and his buddies are laughing it up as I walk towards them.

the guy that jumped on me puts his hands up in a boxer's pose of sorts and starts towards me.

I front kick him straight in the solar plexus and he goes down.

everyone is surprised and shocked, not the least of which is me.

everyone kinda just leaves the pool.

fighting is over rated.:o :confused:

[flem]

a big biker guy in a bar came up to him and said, " you must be a tough guy with that shaved head", or something to that effect. sifu looked away, then back to the guy, in a low voice he said, "no, the chemo treatments for cancer make my hair fall out. the biker guy, full of shame, turned and walked away...thats skill

you did not answer my other question tho???

[daohong]

apparently these threads are not read by the same people that write articles that are posted on this website. The article about kung fu in taiwan seemed to be written by someone who never opens this forum, and it had me very disappointed. He was in southern taiwan at that. Maybe Tainan mantis needs to post some more clips on this forum.
kevin, here you go: donmc20@yahoo.com
But to speak of a fight, I interrupted one recently. Had the fellow studied a little he may have ended up in a slightly differnt situation, but one never knows. One taiwanese man in a bar two weeks ago was beaten so severely that his hands were not recognizable as hands really. And his head and torso were bleeding severly. His clothes had been torn off and he was just squatting trying to cover his head. I told the three beating him that he was defeated and I got in their way. They decided to leave. THe crowd dispersed and I held him until the ambulance came. His blood soaked my clothes and I just told him to rest and let me hold him; he past out. I cried on my way home. Fights are brutal and animalistic and few people have really seen one much less been in one. Thanks for starting the thread.

[EarthDragon]

Just to make a small clerification when people say solar plexus they actually mean xiphiod proccess. Solar plexus is the latin name for chest region. This includes the pectorilis muscle group and upper abdominus both of which if stuck will have little or no effect. The xiphoid proccess however is a sword shaped bone located just below the sternum that protects a bundle of nerve endings. When struck the bone touches the nerves which causes a temporary sensation or shut down of all voluntary and involuntary motor skills. This to the body confuses the brain and gives the illiusion of a loss of breath or knockout sensation. Although temporary it can be very effective.

[Mr.Binx]

Just to elaborate on EarthDragon's post, the solar (a.k.a. celiac) plexus should be located just behind the stomach. If I remember correctly from my old A&P classes, it is one of the largest nerve centers in your abdomen and controls things like adrenaline and blood distribution for intestinal and muscle functions throughout the torso. The middle of the stomach (which many people are unaware is actually located between your belly button and just below your sternum) is often referred to as the solar plexus because it is the most direct route in order to apply kinetic pressure to the real solar plexus behind it. Indirect pressure, like that caused by a palm, heel, or rolling of the knee inward into the opponent's body towards this location has been the most effective for me at incapacitating an opponent. When striking this area you should not encounter bone, but only soft tissue.

Edit: I really don't like the term "striking" that I used in this instance, but I'm having trouble finding a better term. Most of the time I would make light contact, not a strike, and then give kind of a sudden rolling push with whatever part of my body was in contact with the opponent's midsection. A boxer friend of mine had a knack for making a punch to the stomach and then suddenly stopping his fist shortly after contact which would cause a sort of "shockwave" effect that had the same effect as my own primitive technique. I've been incapacitated this way myself on multiple occasions and it doesn't really hurt. Your body just loses any muscular force, your face gets real red, you can't breathe for a brief moment, and normally end up on your knees. Fun stuff!

[Oso]

well, had the fight saturday. I won but am not too pleased with myself. for a variety of reasons (which are all just whiny excuses) I have not been motivated to do the cardio needed to go out and fight a full contact match.

I'll have the match up on my website in a day or two.

[mantis108]

I am all eyes and ears. Please share the experience by all means. Looking forward for the clip too. Thanks

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Oso]

the biggest thing I had to adjust to was the headgear proscribed by the kuoshou peeps is aweful.

I never fight face on to my opponent and you literally have no peripheral vision and minimal vertical vision. It was tough to keep his head and feet in 'frame' so to speak.

It may have been the opponent I was against but the contact was not any harder than I have experienced in any training I've ever done. I've got two bruised thighs and some bruised ribs but I've had those before.

It was fun overall though. I got several throws but due to the jujitsu training I've been doing I went down with him so didn't get credited with the throw. I also wasn't as aware of the edge of the mat area as I should have been just because I've never done lei tai rules.

got a good sidekick in on him and a couple of body shots that lifted him off his feet...well, his heels anyway :D

he had some dang good knees though. after I took a couple of them early it became a priority not to get hit with them again. If he had caught my solar plexus with one I'd a been hurting.

my opponent was well trained and had a similar body size and shape as well as fighting strategy. Two of my students fought others from their school and another of thier fighters also fought lei tai and won. Props to the Peaceful Dragon school in Charlotte NC. Interestingly enough their curriculum is tai chi and shuai jiao ( ok, i'll never remember how to spell that )

one of my 1.5 year female students ( who had 5 years of TKD training ) fought an 8 year female student from the Peaceful Dragon in a medium contact bout and lost a tough split decision.

my other student, also 1.5 years, fought a brown sash student and also lost to a split decision in a light contact match.

there was a very poor turnout for the match so my students and I decided that it would be worth it for them to get the experience against the older students since they would have otherwise not had a match in their intermediate divisions. They stepped up and performed well and I was quite proud.

[B.Tunks]

Nice One OSO!

I empathise about the restricted visuals with the head gear. Still sounds like all else was nice and rough.
Well done champion!

B.T

[Oso]

Brendan, thanks ! It was just a single fight though.

The North Carolina Boxing Commission rules don't allow bracketing for full contact fights unless you wear 16oz. gloves.

There were 5 other fighters and I got paired with the next biggest guy besides myself. I think only one of the 6 of us didn't want to fight it out like a mock tournament but the tournament holder wasn't going to let us.

He said that he was barely holding on to the ability to hold the 'demo' matches as it is and wanted to retain the ability to offer at least the chance to do some sort of full contact fight.

Overall the tournament was done well. Just extremeley poor turnout. I'm glad to find some kung fu oriented tourney here in the middle south.

As said, The Peaceful Dragon school had a large contingent and all of their people were very good and they all fought in one level of sparring or the other.

Also met a couple of students from Sifu Cottrel's line. Their teacher, a student of Sifu Cottrel's, couldn't make it but is just and hour from me. I'll certainly make sure our two schools get together. Their students gave good demonstrations of both empty hand and weapon forms.

The meet of the tourney was Master David Chin of hop gar fame.
He was a very congenial and humorous man to talk to.

[mantis108]

Well done! I am very glad to hear that your students gave their best efforts. My hats off to you and them. I have let 2 of my students (both under a year of training) to sparr semi hard contact with a MMA type of guy (black black in TKD with other disciplines). One (he appeared in the MQ article with me) got thrown on the carpeted concrete floor (got the wind knocked out) and the other got the hand kicked and couldn't continue due to a very sore thumb. BTW, we don't attend tournaments. Having someone who has those type of experience to kick their a$$ is certainly valuable lesson. Anyway, they both gain a lot even they barely survived the experience. LOL... ;) So I can relate to how you would feel seeing progress.

Regarding protective gear, the TKD guy suggested that we use the cage ones. He said he worries about our elbow strikes a lot after he has a chance to view the tape. He realize that my student had quite a bit of control while using the elbow combos to the head. But eating one of those would not be fun at all. So he would like to have head gear when we have rematch. Of course a matted space would be even better. Just though I share with you.

Thank you for sharing such wonderful experiences.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Oso]

well, the vids are mostly up here:

http://www.ashevillemartialarts.com/Video.htm

the two clips of my match are about 33mb each. pretty big but the smallest I could get them and have them look decent.

i suggest right clicking the links and 'save target as' for best results. it will take a while. I may post a really small version but it's hard to see details and it's still 17.5 mb.

some of the links to my students aren't quite right but should be fixed later.

yu shan, pong lai & Tainan: feel free to comment on how Qishou and Chu Chi Chuen look. Hopefully we represented Pong Lai well.

[Tainan Mantis]

Oso,
You are white or black shirt?
I was able to grow a beard while downloading the first clip, I'm thinking you were wearing black.

In 7 hands you did had an extra punch to abs as the opening.
I start off with the backhand as the opening attack.

Either way is ok though.
Great to see a Pong Lai school bringing in students to a tourney.

I'll Tell Shrye, I am sure he will be happy to hear you won the fight.

[Oso]

Tainan: Yes, black shirt.

sorry about the size.

I now have smaller files for my to rounds.

smaller files for everything else will follow soon.

Video editing is a new thing to me.

The tournament was a good experience. We will go back to this groups events. yu shan and I are also talking about going to the Great Lakes in Cleveland next spring for a big showing of Pong Lai.

[yu shan]

Oso,

Nice bout friend, congrats on your win. Noticed you like to fight with a right lead. Looks like you wore the fellow out with the take downs.

Danny`s hand form looked good. Did he compete against more advanced hand forms? Did your group do the partnered version of this form?

7-Hands two-man form looked good. For a beginner-level form it is alot of fun. Shifu Scolaro taught us starting out the form defending against a punch to chest, going directly into the backhand.

[Oso]

Thanks, yu shan.

Danny was at the bottom end of the division. I was judging and had to give the top 3 guys my votes as well. I really feel that my folks lost more by the fact that this was their first tournament then lack of proper demonstration of their sets.

I think what I learned this weekend is that tournaments are necessary in today's world because they place the student/practitioner in a state of anxiety. No, it's not a real fight by any means. But, other than going out and picking fights, where else might you get that level of nervousness which will screw with your head? Certainly in the beginning of a student's training they are nervous about class but it probably only takes a few months to get comfortable there. Fighting is about being uncomfortable in a situation. A tournament at least gives some simulation of being uncomfortable yet still performing, whether in forms or sparring.

[mantis108]

I managed to download some of the clips. The files are big and my connection is just too slow to handle them. But picture qualities are very good. I generally like them. But I have to view them through slowly because my crappy laptop is acting up on me (crashing pretty badly lately). I don't think I can download the rest until I delete some stuff first. :(

It is a job well done.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by mantis108
I have let 2 of my students (both under a year of training) to sparr semi hard contact with a MMA type of guy (black black in TKD with other disciplines). I think most MMA guys would wince at having TKD considerd as one of the disciplines one would study as a MMA fighter. Most of us would consider boxing/Muay Thai, wrestling/Judo; BJJ/Sambo/submission grappling as the true representative styles of modern MMA fighters.

[Oso]

shanghai_kid:

as I understand it, the version of Qishou we are doing is specific to Master Shr.

Tainan Mantis or pong lai could confirm or correct this.


Knifefighter: would it really matter if the person was effective with it?

[mantis108]

I think most MMA guys would wince at having TKD considerd as one of the disciplines one would study as a MMA fighter. Most of us would consider boxing/Muay Thai, wrestling/Judo; BJJ/Sambo/submission grappling as the true representative styles of modern MMA fighters.

Thank you for pointing that out. MMA to me is pretty much anything goes and whatever works. I guess not. I will be more careful in the future.

I think I should clarify that the friend used to study the more traditional TKD which is not quite the same as the sport variety today. I was kind of surprise to find out that he learned breakfall and such things from his master. Since his master moved away he had branched into other stuff, which happen to have elements of what were mentioned in the quote. I am not sure if that qualifies him as a MMA guy or not. My point was that he can do more than just stay at a distance and keep kicking. Sorry if I offended the "MMA" elites. :(

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

I too studied an older form of TKD.
A lot of time spent on falls. No surprise since Judo was taught in Korea a lot of teachers learned it.
One aspect I have noted is how my old Master taught us how to do takedowns in TKD matches.

Although it is supposedly illegal in comp, but these takedowns would not lose your points and were deviuos in their method of skirting the rules.

BTW, My TKD teacher had the highest level iron palm I have ever seen in 20 years of looking.

7 Hands by my shrfu has one extra part in the beginning, the first arm bang, that is not in GM Wei's version.

Shangai,
Where is your version from?

[Tainan Mantis]

Shanghai Kid,
You say your 7 Hands is from Luo Guang Yu?
If that is true it will completely change my understanding of the differences of HK and Taiwan mantis.