chung seen

[foolinthedeck]

hi,
what does chung seen mean?
i'm told it means centerline, but if i search on the web for the tow words i dont get any hits, chung does seem to mean center, but more in the sense of 'community centre' as opposed to centre of an object.

can anyone offer a literal translation?
or a different spelling for better web results?

also, does anyone know a good online free chinese to english dictionary?

thanks

[reneritchie]

Jong Sien is how I would romanize it. Romanization varies. In Mandarin, I believe it would be Zhong (Center, Middle) Xian (Line).

You can try http://www.zhongwen.com for Chinese/English, though it mainly discusses etymology. It's Mandarin Pin Yin romanization.

[yuanfen]

foolingthe deck-
long live anarchy in romanization of Cantonese-

FYI- the Augustine Fong website has a fairly large dictionary of terms that might help wing chun folks....
of course Ip man didnt use a long list of names with every student
and differnt lineages often use their own nomenclature.

FYI-
Jung sin = centerline or centerline plane
ngoi jung sin = inside line
hoi jung sin = outside line

http://www.fongswingchun.com/terms.html

[desertwingchun2]

This may help too ...

museum glossary (http://home.vtmuseum.org/terminology/glossary.php?dfn=c&Ssearchfield=Common+Spellings&SsearchFor=jung+sin&Ssortfield=English+Translations&Sway=ASC&Slimit=20)

-David

[saulauchung]

Because of the pronunciation, 'Chung' can mean several things, but together with 'seen' there can only be one meaning in the Wing Chun context.

'Chung' should be better pronounced (in Cantonese) as 'Chong' meaning 'to rush'. 'Seen' means 'a line'. Hence together, 'Chong seen' means 'the line at with one rushes in' or your attacking line.

-----

Sorry, 'Chung seen' would also infer centre line. Which one would depends on the context that was used.

[foolinthedeck]

excellent,
saulauchang - given that it depends on the context, does this mean that on its own chung seen is essentially meaningless? i ask this in the same way that bong sau is not really a bong sau unless it is used in contact with another person, a bong sau held in the air is nothing but an arm (at least this is what i have been told, and it makes a lot of sense to me - same way that tang sau / gang sau or low bong sau position is called different things in different contexts, inside and outside.)

??

'to rush' - very interesting, so its not just a stationary line, but a place at which to enter, a doorway - out of me, into you... hmm..

desertwingchun - excellent link, thanks.

joy - excellent as ever thank you, care to go into any detail on the insides and outsides? or is it just inside and outside the centre line dependant on context and position?

rene - excellent.

thanks all as usual

[foolinthedeck]

rene -
on your link, thats a link not to the home page but to the definition right? it seems to suggest that zhong mean footprint or from the foot, i wonder how this relates to its use in wingchun, and how it has developed over time to take on the meaning centre or central?

[Phil Redmond]

Yale University has devised a way to write Cantonese using Roman letters (Romanization). The US Foreign Service Dept. and other governments use the Yale Romanization method. Most consider the Yale method the closest to actual Cantonese pronounciation for westerners. OK, Cantonese has 7 'tones', meaning one word can be pronounced using 7 distinct 'musical' tones. If you change the tone of a word you change the meaning. There are 4 upper tones notated with accent marks for, (1.)level tone, (2.) rising, (3). falling, and (4.) high tone. Then there are three low level tones which use the letter "H" to show they should be pronounced lower.
An example like haih, (the verb to be), has an extra 'h' to show that it's low tone as opposed to hai (a point in space). There is another method called Wade-Giles but in the opinion of most it isn't as good. My Sifu wrote 'larp' sau in one of his books. It should have been lop sau since there are no "R" sounds in Cantonese. Another example is 'bil' sau which should be 'biu' sau. Native Cantonese speakers don't learn using Roman letters so that's why there are so many different written versions of Cantonese words. Since I studied Cantonese in college I'm a bit of a stickler for correct pronounciation and tone. So don't mind my interventions when I see the need for a correction every now and then.The link that Rene posted should be useful for us to be on the same page with regards to how we write terms.

[Edmund]

foolinthedeck,

I think you're confused. There's two different words: Chong, and Jong.

Chong = rush probably, Jong = middle

They sound similar. Different people may spell it slightly differently. Hence most posters are assuming you mean "Jong" when you say "Chong".



Originally posted by foolinthedeck
excellent,
saulauchang - given that it depends on the context, does this mean that on its own chung seen is essentially meaningless? i ask this in the same way that bong sau is not really a bong sau unless it is used in contact with another person, a bong sau held in the air is nothing but an arm (at least this is what i have been told, and it makes a lot of sense to me - same way that tang sau / gang sau or low bong sau position is called different things in different contexts, inside and outside.)

??

'to rush' - very interesting, so its not just a stationary line, but a place at which to enter, a doorway - out of me, into you... hmm..

[Phil Redmond]

Edmund,
Middle- "Jung" is pronounced like the oo in boot/toot. Making it sound like joong.

[saulauchung]

Foolinthedeck,

Chong Seen and Chung Seen are used in every day terms in Chinese regardless of dialect. Whereas Bong Sau , as far as I know, is only used in the Wing Chun circle. In application term, I agree that final form of the Bong Sau ceases to be the Bong Sau and is structurally weak.

In every day use, one would used chung seen for referring the centre line, i.e. taking the chung seen while driving would mean taking the middle lane. For chong seen, the every day usage may include the crossing of the finishing line in a race or any line which is used to rush through. Chong also means to flush, i.e. the toilet.

Ultimately, the exact word would be the Chinese character and not the pronunciation. Perhaps it would be ideal to use the pronunciation of the Chinese or HK governments depending on the dialect used. Since the predominant traditional teaching dialect is Cantonese, perhaps the system used by the HK government would be best.

[Phil Redmond]

You are right about different dialects having different pronounciations and the Cantonese for middle could be written Chung/Jung/Joong, etc. There is definately a need for standardization for the terms used in WC so we can all be on the same page. I used the Yale method because it was readily available here in the States. I will look into the HK method you mentioned to see if can help me with my pronounciation. At the present the Yale method has worked for me as any native speaker who hears me speak can attest to.
Also, I have heard bong sau used in White Crane.

[reneritchie]

Jong in Jong Sien is the same character as Jong as in Jong Gwok (Zhongguo) or China (Middle Kingdom) and means 'center' or 'middle'

It does not mean 'rush in'. That is another character. I typically romanize it as Chung but it's really more of a tonal difference. That's the same character as Chung Choi/Chung Kuen, and means 'Thrust' or "Charge', as in Thrusting Punch (or Yat Jee Chung Choi - Vertical ('Yat' Character) Thrusting Punch). Also found in Lat Sao Jik Chung (Free Hand Straight Charge) or "Charge straight when the hand is free).

Chinese is complicated. I also recommend the VTM site for WCK terminology as Jeremy and co. have put together an excellent tool.

[Edmund]

Hi Guys,

Sounds like a good idea but do they even use ANY romanizing system in schools in HK or China? Though I'm chinese I never went to school there.

The roman alphabet is going to be their second written language not their first so I don't know whether romanization of any kind is going to help students for getting good phonetics.


Originally posted by Phil Redmond
I used the Yale method because it was readily available here in the States. I will look into the HK method you mentioned to see if can help me with my pronounciation. At the present the Yale method has worked for me as any native speaker who hears me speak can attest to.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Edmund
. . . . The roman alphabet is going to be their second written language not their first so I don't know whether romanization of any kind is going to help students for getting good phonetics.

Edmund you do have a point there. My first semester was spent in the language lab listening to the professor with headphones and repeating tones/words back into a mike. She could listen to each student individually and make corrections. So phonetics alone wouldn't be of much help.

[CFT]

Originally posted by Edmund
Sounds like a good idea but do they even use ANY romanizing system in schools in HK or China? Though I'm chinese I never went to school there. China (and I guess HK now) do teach Mandarin pinyin at the same time as their Mandarin lessons. It is an integrated approach I believe; i.e. they learn the Chinese character and pinyin at the same time. The pinyin also gives an unambiguous guide to tonal pronunciation.

Although there are Cantonese romanization systems, I don't believe that there are any that are systematically used by any government. As Phil mentioned there is the Yale system used in the US; others include the Sidney Lau method, Meyer-Wempe and Jyutping. Jyutping is devised by the Linguistic Society of Hong Kong and is probably set to become the standard in HK.

I don't think that Cantonese romanization is taught in HK so that is why most people come up with the oddest of transliterations.

Getting back to the original post: since the centre line is such a core principle in WC, more than likely the "chung seen" he was referring to is just that.

Rene, were you aware that "chung", as in rush, can be written thus using simplified Chinese characters: water radical (but with 2 dots not 3) and the "jung" (centre) character. See attachment.

[foolinthedeck]

thanks and congratulations.
i feel that i can always rely on this forum to be precise enough to cover the question, but also to enlarge any question to cover other interesting areas such as linguistics.

i think i have enough points of view on centre now, but please feel free to continue this thread in the fabric.