Wan Lai Sheng and 1928 National arts tournament

[Kennyfist]

Hello,
I read that in the 1928 National arts tournament in Nanjing there were 13 surviving contestants one being Kuo Yu Cheung. But read somewhere that Zhu guofu was ranked "first" whereas read somewhere else that KYC was considered the best fighter.
Could anyone with good research clarify:
1) Who were the 13 remaining contestants (read somewhere that it was 17)
2) Was WLS amongst them
3) was there such a thing as a "winner" amongst the 13/17
4) Did KYC ever get defeated by WLS in sparring match (can't remember where I read that).

[NorthernShaolin]

KF,

Question 1:

I once had the names of all 13 champions of the 1928 First National Tournament but I lost them. At one time it was published in one of the older Wu Lin Mag but I cannot remember the year it was published. However, I can offer you some names off the top of my head:

Kuo Yu Chang of BSL and Hsing I
Li Hsin Wu of BSL and Tan Tui
Ma Cheng Hsin of Seven Star Praying Mantis
Wang Shao Chou of BSL and Ch'a Styles
Chu Kuo Chen of BSL and Hsing-i
Chu Kuo Fu of BSL and Hsing i
Chu kuo Lu of BSL and Hsing i

Not sure about these names:
Ch'ien Chan Sheng of Ch'a
Wu Chih Ch'ing of BSL

Other winners but were not part of the 13 champions:
Keng Te Hai of Tai Sheng (Monkey Style) won the weapons competition. The weapon he used was...no, it was not the Staff but the sword.

Fu Chen Sheng won the Internal Form section.

Question 2:
No, Wan Li Sheng was not one of the 13 Champions. He had to step away from competition after his bout with a White Crane opponent and even after WLS defeated him. But to WLS's disappointment, he broke his hand when he broke the White Crane opponent's jaw and could not continue. WLS end up placing #48.

Question 3:
As the fights continued and was down to the final 13 contestants, the government stopped the tournament. The audience became angry because they wanted a single champion but the officials thought if the fights continued, the results would end up in deaths because of the high degree of skills among the remaining contestants.

THe 13 grouped together and voted among themselve who was the best between them. Depending on which article one reads tthat was written during the tournament, there were two names: Kuo Yu Chang and one of the Chu brothers, I think it was Chu Kuo Chen. But it was more of a popularity between the 13 Champions and nothing really to support that anyone was really the single best.

Question 4:
WLS and KYC never fought. They respected each other skills and exchanged knowledge. WLS was the "Bruce Lee" type in those days with a chip on his shoulder and really did not care to teach. He decline many students who had travel from far parts of the country, seeking him for lessons. After the 1928 First national Tournament, WLS felt deep down that he was better than at least 12 of the 13 champions and set out a goal to challenage each of them. WLS only wanted to test the skills of masters and went around the country, challenging many masters and Grand masters. He won and exposed many fakes and he also lost some fights. Many of his matches ended in a tie. When he deafeated 12 of the Champions, he was given the title: Flower of the National Arts. WLS feared only two types of masters and is documented that he decline fights once he learned that the opponents had such skills.

What kind of masters were these men who would strike fear in someone like WLS, who's skills in CMA has earn him the title: "FLower of the National Arts"?

They were masters who were skilled with Iron Palm and especially masters who were experts in Golden Bell techniques. KYC was an expert in both.

[Kennyfist]

Hi Northernshaolin,
wow... you should write a book on the history of chinese martial arts in the early 1900's especially chin wu and BSL...!
Thanks again for sharing the information.
Could you point for me where to locate good info on that era of chinese martial arts.....
Do you know anything about the WLS and Zhang qinlin incident----read it somewhere but not sure whether its true.

I have a copy of WSL wushu Huizhong but do you know or have a listing of his other books/publications (if you have ISBN and publishers' then it would be great!)

Much appreciated...

Thanks.:)

[fanzi]

My Sifu, Chen Ying is a student of Wan Lai Shen. He teaches Liu He Men and Zi Ran Men (Natural Style Boxing) of Wan Lai Shen. His english isn't good, but I bet if you called or visited him, he'd more than likely be happy to talk about his Sifu. He's told us a couple stories about how Wan Lai Shen was young but would challenge these old masters. That he had had written a book in his youth about martial arts and the various styles and that ****ed a lot of older masters off.

www.sifuchenying.com

[fanzi]

Kennyfist (or anyone who knows):

Where can I get a copy of a Wan Lai Shen book in english?

[NorthernShaolin]

fanzi,

Sorry but none of WLS's books are in English.


KF,

There are several books and I know that there are more than what I've listed. Sorry but much of the info is incomplete.

1. Wu Shu Nei Wai, 1925
This is the book that upset many masters as Fanzi mention above. It conatined many items that were secret or mysterious.

2. Attack and Defence in Martial Arts, Date UK

3. Spear Play in 24 Shape, Date UK

4. Qigong, Date UK

Books #2, #3, and #4 I believe were re-prints of sections from book #1

5. Lui Ho Chuan, Saber, and Spear, HK, Date UK, Publisher Mien Wah ?
Another re-print of sections from book #1.

6. Kuo Shu Fighting Methods, 1994, ISBN 7-81003 914-8/G

7. Shao Lin Lui Ho Men, 1987, Volumne 1, 2, and 3
(COntains four hand sets, one spear, two saber sets, and two sword sets and one fighting sword set... All Wu Shu-ized)

A good source of TCMA history are the old Martial Art Hero Mag. and Martial Mag. that were published in the 1970's and 80's.

WLS and Zhang qinlin incident...can you give me more info? I'm aware about several of WLS encounters but the name of this incident does not connect.

[Kennyfist]

Thanks Northernshaolin,
Wushu Nei Wai is not the same book as wushu huizhong is it?
What does "Nei Wai" mean ie the chinese characters for the 2 words?
I'm aware Wan Laishing in PRC has "Qigong teaching material" and "fighting methods teaching material". They are not published by a commercial publisher and I'm not sure if they correspond with some of the books you mentioned.

Supposedly some say Wan Laishing'[s encounter with Yang family ended up in him facing a student of Yang family surnamed Zhang in which Wan broke his wrist (so they say). Not sure how true it is. A bit like these days say decades after someone passes away you get these stories coming up "hey so and so got beaten by so and so..." and guess where the story comes from....the winning party's conincident or what...?

I know you have good research sources Northernshaolin...could you share some of the Wan Laishing incidents because its hard to locate info on Wan even in chinese (based on my limited resources).....

Thanks again for sharing. Much appreciated.

[dimmakseminar]

Dear Fanzi:

Without sounding too presumptuous, how long have you studied with Chen Ying, and did you study anywhere else prior?

Sincerely,

dimmakseminar

[fanzi]

I studied with Chen Ying in '96 when he was at USA Shaolin Temple. When he left there that same year, I, not knowing any better, stayed at USAST. In 2002 I went back to Chen Ying and only wish I'd done it sooner.

Thanks Northern Shaolin and Kennyfist for the info.

[NorthernShaolin]

KF,

Wu Shu Nei Wai translates to A Compendium of Wu Shu. My mistake, it was published in 1928, not 1925. During that same year, 1928, WLS was publishing a series of articles in the Peking Morning News.

About WLS and Zhang qinlin (Chang Ch'ing Ling) incident, I read a slightly different version. Chang was trained by Yang Pan Hou who was the son of Yang Lu Ch'an and was a classmate of the younger Yang Ch'eng Fu. Chang could root his feet so well that they would sink into the ground. Observers notice that WLS and CCL were of equal abilities and when they cross arms, both men injured their hands and the fight was determined to be a draw.

There was another incident with the Yang Family that involves WLS. WLS challenged Yang Ch'eng Fu and both agreed to use pushing hand teachiques. Now at this time, Yang weigh three hundred pounds and WLS pushed Yang up into the air. Up to this time, no one had ever uprooted Yang Ch'eng Fu. This was proof as to how good WLS really was and even more impressive to beat a well known master at his own techniques.

I have two other stories about WLS and I'll write them either later today or next week.

[NorthernShaolin]

A Challenge with a Lesson

In 1912 Chin Woo (Jing Mo) was setting up an association in Shanghai. A grand opening was to be held with an open tournament. At this time, WLS was very young and was very proud of himself. To the disappointment of WLS, there was no sparring but to match one’s skills in sets. Judges were to evaluate constants on their performance. All winners would win a prize. WLS won but not the grand prize and became upset. He expressed his dissatisfaction with the judges and told them the prize was cheap.

Later at a nearby monastery, WLS expressed his dissatisfaction with the judges with some friends. The head monk, Chueh Yuen, overheard WLS’s statement. He told WLS that he saw the contest and in his opinion, he felt WLS was lucky it was not a sparring contest; otherwise he would have lost to the other two men, Wu T’ien Ch’eng and Chen Kung Che of Eagle Claw. This upset WLS and challenged the 50-year-old monk.

The next day, WLS went on the stage where the previous contest occurred and did some sets to show off. Rules were drafted and both fighters agreed. The monk signed first while WLS stood behind him. When it was WLS turn to sign, he suddenly complained of stomach pains and wanted to see a doctor right away.

The next day, the head monk went to see WLS and asked him why he backed out of the fight. WLS told the monk that as he was standing behind him, waiting to sign, he listen to his breathing. Instantly he knew he would lose because he recognized the breathing technique of Golden Bell. He knew that he could not win against someone who possesed this knowledge.

[fanzi]

What's the breathing technique of golden bell?

[Kennyfist]

I'm not sure exactly, but I think it involves abdominal breathing coordinated with raising and lowering the palms together with compressing the breath into the lower dantian.
But what characteristic in the practitioners' "normal' breathing enabled WLS to detect golden bell training I'm not sure, unless the guy was warming up with his breathing training...........

Anyone know whether many of YSM students still practice and teach golden bell. Any other students of KYC teach the golden bell techniques.

You should specifically ask Northernshaolin or other KYC-YSM lineage practitioners because KYC was an expert in golden bell but not sure whether small golden bell or large golden bell.

Thankyou Northernshaolin for sharing an interesting story with us.
I would expect WSL to have some golden bell training because I think he mentioned briefly the method in his book.

[count]

Originally posted by fanzi
Kennyfist (or anyone who knows):

Where can I get a copy of a Wan Lai Shen book in english?
I saw this being promoted just the other day on another forum.

hi everyone

for anyone interested in the traditional Taoist energy boxing arts here is a new book which will be out soon.

'Ziranmen - Taoist natural boxing'

based on translations of Wan Lai Sheng's groundbreaking book on Chinese martial arts, with detailed introduction and commentary by Serge Augier (fifth generation ziranmen) , and additional research notes on Wan's teachers and other aspects of this rare art.

volume one will focus on ziranmen qi-gong, nei-gong, taoist meditation, zrm jibengong , fighting poems and training skills, history of the art and Wan's memories of his teachers.

we will post a few extracts soon on the site

www.whitecraneinstitute.com

(Serge Augier's site)

_wishing you all good training

alex kozma

Interesting this topic being dicussed on the same forum as well. How many of you guys are posting at Empty Flower under different screen names? LOL

[omarthefish]

I won't know if this forum supprts Chinese fonts or not untill after this post. If it does, I would really love to see the names of any published sources for the names/dates of any of the contests of that era. As soon as I get paid in a few weeks you got me thinking I seriously need to drop a little cash on some of this stuff. I've been getting much more into the history of that era as well and would value some documentation tremendously.

Any reccomendations. I'm in mainland China right now so there's actually a lot available but if you had any reccomendations...I'd be curious to hear them. Somehow it never occured to me that there would be some big almanac type books or something on the subject.

I've got an article with a really cruddy picture of the newspaper article announcing the famous fight between some Russian wrestler and a noted bagua master that happened in 1918 but if, for instance, there was a way to get a proper scan of the newspaper article or even....*gasp* a copy of the paper from back then...how woudl one look for that sort of thing? :confused:

[NorthernShaolin]

KF,

KYC was a master of Small Golden Bell. Large Golden Bell became a lost art by the end of the Boxer rebellion for obvious reasons.

WLS did not learn Small Golden Bell until after that particular fight in 1912. He was only 19 years old and still learning different aspects of TCMA.

omarthefish,

Try going to the original newspaper agency and see if they micro film their old newspaper articles. Some of the large libraries in Shanghai may have copies in micro-film. Also try some of the universities' libraries.

Seek out the original articles because many contain eye witnessed first hand knowledge of the events. Stay away from the comtemporary articles written after 1960's and especially after 1970's because PRC forced all historians to tone down the writing of all China's MA heros. (To prevent ideas of rebellion or revolution against authority i.e., their govenment. Many TCMA heros stood and fought against authority like the Emperor.)

[NorthernShaolin]

omarthefish,

When you come home, back to the States, you can try Stanford University. They have a large collection of Chinese Martial arts books in their library. You may be able to find something written in the 1920;s or 30's about these events. Worth the shot.

[omarthefish]

Thanks for the tips. Good ideas. I'm a bit far from Shanghai but I'm sure I'll get my chance. Actually, just reading the thread got me all itching to check out some of the larger bookstores in town. There are often these big encyclopedic type books on MA that I used to tend to avoid. But lately...I might want to give them a second look, especially when the $120 hardcover tomes in China are more like 120 yuan. (ie about $14)
:)

[NorthernShaolin]

KF,

Here is the last incident I have on Wan Li Sheng.

In 1931, every province in China was setting up National Arts Province Schools. Chairman of Hunan Province, Ho Ch’ien invited WLS to be head of the Hunan National Arts Training Institute. During this time Ma Yuen Lin, who was not pleased with the appointment of WLS, controlled the local MA centers.

Ma took his top students, Tang Hui Tien, Lu Chan Shan, and Hwang Chuan I to visit Ho Ch’ien and WLS and to express his dissatisfaction as an outsider being appointed and questioning why a youth would be holding such an important position.

WLS was ready to decline the position but Ma would not drop the subject about outsiders coming in to Hunan to run their National Arts School.

A tournament was set up to resolve this dilemma. Ma Yuen Lin represented Hunan Shaolin and Pao Chuan and was the most famous fighter in Hunan Province. All of his students were experience fighters. Both signed the next day a No Fault Death contract. Ma wanted his eldest student, Lu Chan Shan, to fight WLSD first.

Lu attacked first with a Shaolin techniques called ‘Turn the body like a Tornado Fire Wheel”. WLS counter with a BSL Shaolin Wei T’o Liu Ho technique. When Lu attacked again, WLS countered with a Spontaneous Boxing technique by jumping backwards into an empty step. Lu did not know that WLS was making a feint and as Lu step forward, WLS also went forward with a jamming kick. WLS broke Lu ankle and Lu went down. WLS went to aid Lu but Ma’s face turned red and shouted, “I lost face, WLS, fight me now!”

WLS tried to explain that it was an accident but Ma was unreasonable and quickly attacked. WLS stepped back 10 steps until he had to fight. Ma’s Iron Palm cut through the air with such force that it could be heard. WLS used Ch’ing Kung (Art of Lightness) to retreat. Ma was an experienced fighter and would not attack directly. He used continuous linking kicking techniques. WLS would advance then retreat but always maintain his position.

When WLS saw the right moment, he attacked. He leaps forward like a cat going up a tree with one foot on Ma’s chest and the other kicking out quickly. WLS rolled away and quickly got up only to see blood coming out of Ma’s mouth. Ma could not raise himself off the floor. WLS supported Ma’s head and told him he was sorry. Ma’s students swarmed up around WLS but Ma told them to go back. As tears fell from his eyes, Ma said, “ My skills are not as good as yours. What else can I say?”

As Ho Ch’ien and WLS helped Ma back to his place, Ma realized he was very narrow-minded and soon Ma and WLS became good friends.

[Kennyfist]

Hi Northernshaolin,
Thanks for sharing the info. Again very much appreciated.
I like WLS stuff, I collected some of his writings and he is an interesting MA. (Though I much prefer if he wrote in less formal chinese).
The Lui He fist set he detailed in his 1928 book only contains 24 postures (named in Lyrics) but that transmitted by Yim Shang Mo contains more; but can be explained by additions by KYC.

Did YSM ever inherit the Natural school (Spontaneous) boxing from WLS?
I know you already mentioned that the Natural boxing doesn't have sets, but I'm curious about the section in his 1928 book where he runs through an "illustrated explanation of Natural boxing" and from the way he presented it resembles an ordered sequence-----did YSM learn and teach that "set" ?

My sources on Natural school boxing mainly come from WSL writings which is limited, I think he may have written an entire book on Natural school post 1928 but I haven't got it. If you have anymore info on Natural school or know of some good reliable sources could you share or mention them-------very interesting stuff and makes great reading as have been your sharing of the WLS stories.

Thankyou again for such an interesting thread and hope you drop a gem now and then on this forum------ very good motivation for checking the forum often!

[brassmonkey]

Was/is golden bell and iron palm overrated back then?

[NorthernShaolin]

KF,

YSW at one time did attempt to teach Spontaneous Boxing when he taught in Kwangchou. He taught the techniques called 'Inside circle", "Devil's Head and Hand" and "Little Devil Waggles his Head". Later he elected only to transmit the 10 hand sets of Liu Ho and when he arrived in HK (about mid 1950's), it was only one Lui Ho hand set that he taught.

WLS taylored down his original 10 Lui Ho Chuan sets down to four by the 1980's.

Brassmonkey,

Only my opinion but Golden Bell and Iron Palm in the old days is nothing in comparison to what we have today. In the old days the practice of Golden Bell and Iron Palm was at a higher level of expertise and what we observe today is only an elementary level of what it used to be.

omarthefish,

Look for these two books:

The Great Dictionary of Chinese Wu Shu by People's Athletic Publications, 1990. (Cost $60 in the USA). An excellent book that includes not only the most famous master but also descriptions of over 200 different styles of TCMA and all the various types of TCMA weapons that ever existed in the last 2000 years.

Kuo Shu Famous People Documentary by Jin Yen Joung.
Original date unknown but was part of the Kuo Shu National Arts schools (Re-printed in Taiwain in 1970). Just short bio on famous TCMA masters of the last 100 years (starts at 1930 and count back 100 years).

I'm looking for:
Ma Liang's book, Ch'uan Chiao K'o (Fist and Foot techniques) Shanghai, 1917. If you can buy this one for me, it would be greatly appreciated!

[NorthernShaolin]

KF,

Okay i found the names of the Champions in weaponless division. Actually I got 15 names and it is in Pinyin, not Yale. I've always read that there were 13 but I guess not. Perhaps two of these individuals were left off because of ....politics in CMA?

Zhu Guofu
Zhu Guolu
Zhu Guozhen
Wang Chengzhang
Wang Yunpeng
Zhang Changyu
Zhang Weitong
Zhang Yinzhen
Dou Laigeng
Yang Fawu
YangShiwen
Ma Pizhi
Ma Yupu
Gu Ruzhang
He Fusheng

These were the top 15 out of 333 contestants with 150 contestants fighting it out for the final rounds. No considerations were made for body weight or time limits. Also there was no body protection and so it is told blood flowed freely and bones were broken without hesitation.

[kai men]

I am delighted to read this thread. Thanks a lot , Northernshaolin, for sharing. We have been very fortunate to be here and read this piece of real knowledge.
I want to abuse a little adding a question: ¿Can you tell me about YSM learning the Liu Ho Style?
Kindest regards
horacio

[NorthernShaolin]

kf,

here is a web site that has a direct lineage to Wan Li Sheng. He is in France.

www.perso.wanadoo.fr/wanlaisheng/instituteTeaching

According to this web site, WLS wrote 15 books on CMA.

His curriculum (in Lui Ho Chuan) is the closes to what I understand what WLS originally taught just before PRC.

kaimen,

I have been told by my elders and yours too, that before YSW learned BSL from KYC, he learned from WSL. I've seen articleswritten concerning this issue and in the original artilcle, it had a letter of introduction from WLS to KYC about one of his student, YSW, wishing to learn BSL from KYC and would he accept him as a student.

[kai men]

Northernshaolin, as usual I can only thank you. You ve improved my information about so many subjects....thanks a lot
horacio

[Happykiwi]

Originally posted by NorthernShaolin
A Challenge with a Lesson

In 1912 Chin Woo (Jing Mo) was setting up an association in Shanghai. A grand opening was to be held with an open tournament. At this time, WLS was very young and was very proud of himself. To the disappointment of WLS, there was no sparring but to match one’s skills in sets. Judges were to evaluate constants on their performance. All winners would win a prize. WLS won but not the grand prize and became upset. He expressed his dissatisfaction with the judges and told them the prize was cheap.



WLS was born in 1903, that would make him 9 yo in 1912. I know WLS as I have met him him and studied with him when I was in Fuzhou. I also have a number of photos of him practising with his son and senior students. Most of the stories about him are not true.

[Blacktiger]

Hi Guys

Some great information here on WLS. I study with Master Liu De Ming 5th generation linage holder of Liu Zi Ran Men in Australia he has been here for a number of years now.
In terms of the linage with the French school its not really direct at all. Before Grandmaster Wan pasted away he appointed Master Hong Zheng Fu and then Master Hong passed this to Master Liu De Ming.

Alot of people came and saw Grandmaster Wan in his later years, and when he got older he told alot of people what they wanted to hear, "Oh yes you are heir to Zi Ran Men etc etc", as they were paying him cash which he needed as he was with out a home etc. The sad thing to see was that none of the money or profit gained from this use of Grandmaster Wans's reputation was ever sent back or returned to the family out of respect..... Just some info for you as told to me when asked about this topic by Master Liu De Ming 5th gen linage holder.

Northern Shaolin love your information, very good. I thought I would drop a link to our website for those that may be intrested in tracking contacts/teachers and inforamtion on this style that WLS made famous.

http://www.ziranmen.com/

:D

[Blacktiger]

If you want to see some cool pictures of Grandmaster Wan when he was very young check out the site above on my previous post. Go to "arts" on the site then "Zi Ran Men" and you can see him when he was 20 or so in various stances etc meditating and circle walking on the rice basket etc.

Enjoy :)

[Happykiwi]

Great photos, Blacktiger. Thank you! I particularly like the bit about knocking the rice basket over and having to start from the beginning again. Wicked! LOL
I will submit some of the photos I have of him when I get the chance. There is no doubt, the guy was an awesome fighter!

[Blacktiger]

Yeah the circle walking with the rice basket is great its to lighten the body and is still used today when training in Liu He Zi Ran Men.
A great story told to me by my Sifu is that Grandmaster Wan was so light on his feet that he could walk over rice paper on sand and not leave a trace or mark.
He was very big on footwork which is a major characteristic of Zi Ran Men and would say, if you cant move and your foot work is no good its all over.
Man it would have been great to see him in action back in the day.

:D

[ngokfei]

wow what a shame and embarassment.

I would think that WLS's disciples would have taken care of their teacher.

Was always taught that this was the responsiblity of a disciple.

"as they were paying him cash which he needed as he was with out a home etc. The sad thing to see was that none of the money"
.
WLS didn't even have a home??? and this was peace time?

"or profit gained from this use of Grandmaster Wans's reputation was ever sent back or returned to the family out of respect..... Just some info for you as told to me when asked about this topic by Master Liu De Ming 5th gen linage holder"

hope the family is now doing well with so many of individuals outside of china are teaching and making $$$.


I could understand the story of Wong Fei Hung dying in poverty as eveyrbody at the time was out of sorts with the mass changes going on in china at the time.

[Blacktiger]

Yeah it is sad. Master Liu stiil sends money back to Master Hong's family to this day, as is the tradition.
It did not stop there either, people also took some of his special books and posessions as well. Master Liu 5th gen linage holder was saying that Master Hong would get quite angry with people who would come to Grandmaster Wan trying to get him to sign certificates and all sorts of things and sadly when he got older and age was taking its toll on him people took advantage of the situation.
So really its like anything you get people popping up here and there claiming this and that and trying to cash in on the situation. Its getting a little like the ninja boom in the 80's with secret masters suddenly coming out of the wood work saying they are part of the linage etc. The fact of the matter is you soon dig a little and the story suddenly falls apart. :D

[ngokfei]

yep thats the way things go. But again its very difficult to single out anyone individual as the "lineage holder" especially if the teacher has had so many students through the years.

Wanlaiseng had to of produced at least 3 generations by himself.
He has been teaching publicly since 1928.

So what exactly would be considered the content of Wan's curriculum. Forms, Drills etc.

Liu He (6 harmony)
Zi Ran men (natural style)
Bagua Zhang (8 trigram Palm)
Xing Yi Quan (form will boxing)
Taiji Quan
Pigua
Hou Quan (monkey boxing)
Lohan Quan (arhat boxing)
Nan Quan (southern boxing)

If we stick to just the Liu He and Ziranmen??


for some good material and photos, if you don't have them, pick up the magazine "Martial Arts of China feb & march 1991" as well as the "Martial Arts of China presents Grandmasters issue #1, Spring 91. They have a really nice younger photo of Du Xinwu.

This was what the Kungfu Taichi Magazine was originally called under Rodger Hagood. I think he still sells these out of his supply company Shaolin Brand.

[BM2]

What is BSL?

[Blacktiger]

Cool thanks for the info ngokfei on the pics of Du, he was a legend as well.
In terms curriculum I think what you have there is prety close on the mark. But what I am also told is that what is in Zi Ran Men now is the best bits of all those things. Grandmaster Wan studied under lots of Masters and picked things up from everywhere. I think the only thing missing on the list was Liu He Praying Mantis which has just been added in over the last two years or so. My Sifu says the whole thing with Zi Ran Men is "if it works for you use it, what ever works best for you". Of course like anything you have to get the basics like anything and then go from there.
In terms of the linage it is hard but there are like anything certain scrolls and official type documents that you have if you are the linage holder that cut out any debate if need be..... Ah enough about the politics.
I just wish I could have seen WLS at his peak in action, that would have been wicked :D

[Lokhopkuen]

Originally posted by BM2
What is BSL?

Bei Shaolin/ Bak Siu Lum/ Norhtern Shaolim

[ngokfei]

so I guess with the open policy ziranmen has become a modern JKD style. Perhaps would be better if they didn't use the name anymore. Some are calling it Liu He Zi Ran Men, still doesn't do it justice.

perhaps people should just go back to the old way and give their school a special name and not style specific.

Just ordered the Ziranmen series from Plum Pub. On the vcd's it has WLS demonstrating either the form or techniques. He's old but still soemthing to gauge the style on.

[NorthernShaolin]

ngokfei,

You bring upsome good points. One has to remember that when the PRC took control of the country, many TCMA made their attempts including WLS to keep the Traditional methods of their style. The Culture Revolulation destroyed many traditional styles and forced others to go underground. Many masters could not teach openly and others refused to even practice in public. If anyone refused they were either killed or placed in jail. WLS was sent to jail because he was very outspoken and against this idea of suppression, especially for TCMA.

This went on for at least 10 years until the governments decided to bring back CMA in the form of what we see today. These masters such as WLS either had to change their views of CMA or face life in prision. WLS was released because he agreed to change his thinking on CMA. As a result, many of his original sets were modified or in some cases, Wu Shu moves were added into his existing sets in his curriculum.

Now not all of his sets were changed but the government did not realize this. One has to know the original sets that he taught or at least witnessed how he taught them in the pre-PRC days and then compare them to today's sets that are claimed to be part of his curriculum. This may be difficult since he did not have that many students in the pre-PCR days because he really did not like to teach in his younger days.

One comment on your quote:

'Some are calling it Liu He Zi Ran Men, still doesn't do it justice.'

Combining the two styles may have been a result of WLS's idea of teaching the essence of what he knew quickly since he was in the later part of his life. Up until he was placed under arrest by the government, he always taught the two styles separately. He always taught Liu he first before he taught Zi Ran Men because in order to really understand Zi Ran' concepts, he believed one had to have CMA background because there are no 'real sets' in Zi Ran Men, just principles and concepts on a spritual level.

Then again, maybe the two styles were combined in such a way as to satisfied the PRC's conditions to change all TCMA to their accpectance.

But I think the point that is really apparent is that many of the existing styles in China today, may not be the original traditional style that existed when the great masters that we read about used in the recent past. The current government allows certain styles to exist publicly for political reasons. They have full control of what we, as outsiders, are allow to know what still exist in China. For example, from what I understand, KYC's BSL still exist in China but is not allowed to be openly taught unless it is modified to Wu Shu standards. Therefore this particular BSL is taught to a select few and is basicly taught in an underground small school. But publicly, KYC's BSL is non existance in China today.

[Blacktiger]

On this topic.

'Some are calling it Liu He Zi Ran Men, still doesn't do it justice.'

Combining the two styles may have been a result of WLS's idea of teaching the essence of what he knew quickly since he was in the later part of his life. Up until he was placed under arrest by the government, he always taught the two styles separately. He always taught Liu he first before he taught Zi Ran Men because in order to really understand Zi Ran' concepts, he believed one had to have CMA background because there are no 'real sets' in Zi Ran Men, just principles and concepts on a spritual level.

NorthernShaolin you are dead right you have to understand the Liu He to get the benefit of the Zi Ran Men and this is still the way it is taught and the way WLS wanted it done.
In terms of the Liu He and Zi Ran Men training, we do both at the same time not one then the other. This involves special step training,circle walking and alot of internal training and exercises and there is a Zi Ran Men set, at this stage in our school it has only been passed to the disciples and is an in house thing.

ngokfei
In terms of the style being like JKD, yes you have a point but there is still a massive chunk of Zi Ran Men curriculum that does not change, things dont just get thrown in and out. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. There are lots of Zi Ran Men techniques that are used and taught, within those techniques you are taught to use the ones that work best for you or suit you, that is the whole idea of Zi Ran Men its natural boxing. So its not just a mish mash of stuff that is put together from everything. The Zi Ran Men part of things does not change. What I meant to get across is that there is a great freedom on natural approach when using the Zi Ran Men side of things.

Also a little story told to me by my Sifu, when WLS was getting a hard time from the government. Because it was so hard to practice WLS used to go to big dance halls and float round the dance floor practicing all the Zi Ran Men stuff, which alot actually looks like a graceful dance. When questioned what he was doing by an official he would say " just dancing". And Gracefully float off in the other direction, very funny.
:D

[NorthernShaolin]

Happykiwi,


WLS was born in 1893, not 1903 so that would make him 22 years old in 1912... He was three years younger than Kuo Yu Chang.

[Zhang Meidi]

Wan Laisheng is born in 1903, very easy to know it just check the new books. Two years ago it was his 100th birthday . This is why they are so many vcd appeared about his style.

Norhtern Shaolin do you know where i can get the books mentionned to Omar? I am now in Beijing but i couldn't find it s. Thanks...

[NorthernShaolin]

Chinese books are always printed in limited numbers and once they sell out, it is really difficult to track down.

Books listed from 1 to 6 will be very hard to find unless a publisher decided to re-print them. Usually publishing companies from Taiwan or H.K. are willing to do this but only after a cycle of 25 to 30 years. These books were re-published many times by Taiwan and in HK over the years. As for China book companies, I do not know what they do. Look like they just publish x number and that's it.

For the books listed in 7 and 8, there is a good chance one can still purchase them in isolated book stores in China. One way is to ask them to check their storage house for overstock books. I once found an old Tai Chi book that was out of print that way. They forgot they still had copies in storage.