where does wing chun get power?

[monkeyboxing]

Where do wing chun fighters get power for their techniques, especially chain punching? Whenever I see wing chun people punching, they are punching rapidly but this doesn't seem to allow much body movement.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by monkeyboxing
Where do wing chun fighters get power for their techniques, especially chain punching? Whenever I see wing chun people punching, they are punching rapidly but this doesn't seem to allow much body movement.

If the punches are more rapid than the body can move then the power is obviously not from the body movement.

In those cases, it's based on how solid the stance is and the punch mechanics to link the fists to the body.

In the cases where the body moves in time with the punch then power can come from the body movement if the mechanics are right.

There are different types of punches depending on the situation.

[Phenix]

the question might be where do you get your power. instead of Wing Chun get power.

[Keng Geng]

I was going to suggest a better question such as "Where does the power come from in martial arts". However, Phenix put it nicely.

One could also ask, "where does the power in movement come from?"

[OdderMensch]

they are punching rapidly but this doesn't seem to allow much body movement.

Lets focus on "doesn't seem to" for a moment. While the wing chun fighter may not show much movement, on a cellular level, they are really quite busy.


but

Always gotta be a "but" in there somewhere.


Whenever I see wing chun people punching, they are punching rapidly

Well, thats good! Nice to see vigorus punching going on. As has been stated, the power comes from the stance, and from the linkage of the waist. Or, as i am taught, mass comes from the stance. If the stance is working with the hands, the result should be the body's entire mass, delivered speedily, giving the hits the "ommph" needed.


especially chain punching?

Chain punching is also used to quickly cover the center, placeing hand over hand smoothly facilitates a bridge. If it doesn't get a bridge, it just hits, or the person is flailling.


Where do wing chun fighters get power for their techniques

Well why didn't you just ask this first?

From the sun, of course! MMMMMMM Fusion, its a good thing.

[yylee]

Originally posted by monkeyboxing
Whenever I see wing chun people punching, they are punching rapidly but this doesn't seem to allow much body movement.

I think this leads to another interesting question:

How does power relate to the amount of body movements (movements that can be observed or captured in videos)?

more movement leads to more power? or this is not the case?

[OdderMensch]

At least, not in every case. Movement may be wasted if the connection of the weight of the body to the strike is not correct, Imagine if you will one of Tiger Woods knees suddenly going out mid swing, or just around the point of contact, not much power then. Same thing if the body does not link properly to the strike.

What is true is that more movement means more time. Both between strikes, and time to "fire" a strike at a target of opertunity.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by yylee


I think this leads to another interesting question:

How does power relate to the amount of body movements (movements that can be observed or captured in videos)?

more movement leads to more power? or this is not the case?

Let's compare punching with shooting with a bow and arrow. You pull the bowstring before releasing the arrow. The more you pull the bowstring, the more potential energy the arrow has. The more potential energy, the more kinetic energy the arrow will have when you release it.

Pulling the bowstring is like "loading" your punch. "Loading" your punch does entail more body movement. This is the case of most martial arts. But in wing chun (especially in the chain punch), when you unleash a punch the other hand already is "loading" for the next punch. That's why body movements in WC is not as noticeable as in other martial arts.

[monkeyboxing]

Originally posted by Phenix
the question might be where do you get your power. instead of Wing Chun get power.

Why is that?

[monkeyboxing]

Originally posted by Wingman


Let's compare punching with shooting with a bow and arrow. You pull the bowstring before releasing the arrow. The more you pull the bowstring, the more potential energy the arrow has. The more potential energy, the more kinetic energy the arrow will have when you release it.

Pulling the bowstring is like "loading" your punch. "Loading" your punch does entail more body movement. This is the case of most martial arts. But in wing chun (especially in the chain punch), when you unleash a punch the other hand already is "loading" for the next punch. That's why body movements in WC is not as noticeable as in other martial arts.

Thank you for actually answering the question!

Anyways to the rest of you who aren't answering the question and are asking me in return where the power comes from in other martial arts, it usually comes from body mechanics such as twisting the hip, etc. However, wing chun's priority seems to be speed and thus the punches don't have full body rotation.

[Frank Exchange]

Depends how you do your punching, of course, but real power comes from stepping as you punch. No longer a rotational form of power generation, but more a linear one. There are elements of rotation in there, and the hips do help.

But every punch, ideally, has a step, and thus the full body weight behind it. You are then effectively punching with the legs, which contain the biggest muscles in the body.

Mechanical, machine gun like chain punching with no stance or movement behind it is inefficient and easily countered.

[CHEUNG-WINGCHUN]

i dont think a wingchun straight punch would ever reach the power level of a boxers right hook, but it definately goes above and beyond the power of a jab, or a straight punch

i know when i roll punch into a large boxing bag, i managed to make it fly into the wall 1 metre away

i think its highly important to practise punching a large bag, small targets, as well as the air

(representing the body, the head, and a missed punch respectively)

thoughts?

[kungfu cowboy]

In reply to original post:

Actually, you have been watching mere amatuers. The real power begins to appear at oh so much higher frequencies of punching. First there is the sonic-boom soundbarrier, then there is the laser-beam spectrum, until finally "The Einstein Punch" is reached, as the frequency of macine gunning chain punches rends the very fabric of space-time, creating it's own gravity, that pulls you into the punch with the bone-jarring shock of matter becoming energy.

[AndrewS]

Power is a pretty complicated issue.

Power can be local or whole body.

Many sources can be found for power- I can hit with just the wrist, just the elbow, spine flexion, spine extension, rib motion, hip extension, hip flexion, weight dropping, weight rising, weight shifting, hip twisting- whatever.

All these can come in any combination, though some are more practical than others.

Isolation may refine links and find hidden power.

The 'standard chain punch' can be a fairly quick full body thing using a combination of above mechanics done very small, or can be the forward pressing of the body (essentially posterior chain action lined up with the ground) with the explosion coming from the elbow and shoulder girdle, backed against the 'root' of the body, linked into forward moving body mass.

It can also be (and frequently is) garbage pattycake in mid-air lacking any power or authority.

Later,

Andrew


P.S. Monkeyboxing- 'full body rotation' doesn't equal full power. Full power means activating the right chains quickly.

[FooFighter]

From what I understand of the wing chun gung fu, most of the gong lik comes from stucture, timming, speed, and plyometric power. This all means that sport specific physical conditioning is very important and this should be common sense to anyone who wants to master any physical discipline.

I know for a fact that physical conditioning is vital part of wing chun curriculum in Sifu Alan Lee and Duncan Leung's academy. They have specific wing chun gung fu exercises that very unique to their methodology. In some Duncan Leung's tapes, you can actually seen some of their wing chun exercises.

Where do wing chun fighters get power for their techniques, especially chain punching?

The power comes from good form of course, technical mastery,
stability, explosive power, and timming.

Whenever I see wing chun people punching, they are punching rapidly but this doesn't seem to allow much body movement.

To see the value of the wing chun punch you have to understand the concepts of economy of motion and physics.

[yuanfen]

Cheung- wingchun sez-

i dont think a wingchun straight punch would ever reach the power level of a boxers right hook, but it definately goes above and beyond the power of a jab, or a straight punch

i know when i roll punch into a large boxing bag, i managed to make it fly into the wall 1 metre away
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For doing real damage- a well developed(short power) wing chun punch can be more effective than a right hook.
Takes time and proper development.

[reneritchie]

WCK gets power different in kind from other arts, so the question is perfectly fine. WCK power is different from boxing or tai ji or karate, for example.

There are (at least) 2 basic kinds of power, sao (limb/disconnected) and sam (body/connected), two qualities, short (whipping) and long (charging), and several methods for transfer (condense/expand, rotate, spiral, etc.)

This is all summed up in the sets. Power is a relative thing, however. How much damage does it take to drop someone if you hit them in the pectoral? If you hit them on the chin? On the temple?

If you want basic connected expansion/compression power, stand in YJKYM (like in Siu Nim Tao), properly align everything so that your skeletal system supports the middle two knuckles of your fist (your wrist vector aligned behind it, your elbow behind that, your shoulders triangled behind that, with your pelvis making it a pyramid, and your legs working as two large drivers). Then compress down and in or expand up and out (easiest way to begin) while hitting a wall bag (if you scrape your knuckles, you are sliding across it and not punching into it). Don't let your elbow lazy out, or your shoulders turn, or your pelvis falter. Train it until it starts to become a default alignment. (Your shoulder muscles shouldn't engage--that will break your power, if you find yourself shouldering the load, relax and let your lats activate more).

[yylee]

thanks OdderMensch and Wingman for your answers :)


Originally posted by Wingman


Let's compare punching with shooting with a bow and arrow. ...
....

Pulling the bowstring is like "loading" your punch. "Loading" your punch does entail more body movement. ...



so this goes back to someone else's queston in a previous thread:

where is the bow? and where is the bowstring?

don't worry, I won't punch the monitor if I am not happy with your answer ;)

[yuanfen]

One learns the bow in ygkym...one learns to point the bow in different directions primarily but not exclusively in all in moving platforms in chum kiu and points the bow up and down but not exclusively in biu jee.... one learns to control the arrow in slt and fires it in slt, ck and biu gee.

[Gangsterfist]

The power is generated from autokenetics (human body structure) and conditioning.

Wing Chun does not generate the power, the human body does. Wing Chun just sheds the light on how the body can generate power.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by yylee
...where is the bow? and where is the bowstring?...

The bow & bowstring is the "angular extension" of the joints when you punch. These joints are the wrists, elbow, spine, hip/waist, knee, ankle, etc. The more joints involved in the punch the better.

When you pull the bowstring, the angle becomes acute (smaller); while the curvature of the bow increases. In the same manner when you "load" a punch, the angle of your joints either extend or constrict.

When you release the bowstring, the angle increases. In fact it straightens 180 degrees. Meanwhile, the curvature of the bow decreases. In the same manner when you throw the punch, the angles of those joints which extended when "loading" the punch will now contrict. On the other hand, the angles of those joints which constricted will now extend.

This constriction & extension of the angles of the joints must operate in unison in order to throw a powerful punch.

[yylee]

good show on bow and bowstring! Thx!

Wingman

When the angles of the joints become acute, what energy extends them afterwords?

Is it like this?

Some energy is being accumulated when the angles are acute? So when you pull the trigger the joints extend themselves, releasing the energy?

not sure how enery is stored.... in the muscles? or in the joints? and what triggers the release?

[S.Teebas]

where is the bow? and where is the bowstring?

The bowstring is your intention. The arrow is your body mass. the bow must be the supporting body structure (??)


not sure how enery is stored.... in the muscles? or in the joints? and what triggers the release?

I 'think' it's in every part, and relaxation and correct body structure (plus the right intention) releases it.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by yylee
good show on bow and bowstring! Thx!

Wingman

When the angles of the joints become acute, what energy extends them afterwords?

Is it like this?

Some energy is being accumulated when the angles are acute? So when you pull the trigger the joints extend themselves, releasing the energy?

When a rock is on top of a hill, it has potential energy. But it does not tumble down the hill by itself. Someone has to push it to get it rolling down the hill. In the same manner, when you pull the bowstring, the arrow does not release by itself. The archer has to release it.

When the angles of the joints become acute when "loading" the punch, the joints does not extend by itself. You have to "pull the trigger" by throwing the punch.


not sure how enery is stored.... in the muscles? or in the joints?

The energy is neither stored in the muscles nor in the joints. The joints have potential energy because of its acute angle. Likewise the rock on top of the hill has no potential energy by itself. The rock has potential energy because of its higher elevation.


and what triggers the release?

The practitioner triggers the release when he throws the punch.

[yylee]

thanks for your kind response, Wingman.

But I am still scratching my head, and my elbow joint is at a 20 degree angle.

If I were to translate that 20 degree elbow into a punch to my monitor. I still have to invest in some energy to mobilize my arm to punch, right? So the trigger is not just a flick of a switch, I need to use some energy to throw the punch.

The acute angle IMO gives you a distance for the punch to travel, but I don't think the distance itself gives you a potential.

I could be very wrong, let's see what others say.

Teebas, I will have to think about your post a bit more....thanks ;)

"autokenetics"? I have to scratch my head harder on this one ;)
again thanks G-Fist.

"One learns the bow in ygkym" - Joy old Joy the bow is in the YJKYM? I am raising my hand: "professor stop! what does that mean?!"

[Wingman]

Originally posted by yylee
thanks for your kind response, Wingman.

But I am still scratching my head, and my elbow joint is at a 20 degree angle.

If I were to translate that 20 degree elbow into a punch to my monitor. I still have to invest in some energy to mobilize my arm to punch, right? So the trigger is not just a flick of a switch, I need to use some energy to throw the punch.

The acute angle IMO gives you a distance for the punch to travel, but I don't think the distance itself gives you a potential.


The more joints involved, the more powerful the punch. These joints must operate in unison in order to throw a powerful punch. You are using only 1 joint (the elbow).

Yes, you need some energy when you throw a punch. It's not just a flick of a switch. Remember my analogy of pushing the rock off the hill? That's the amount of energy you need to "pull the trigger".

Thank you for all your questions. You got me thinking.

"If you start with certainty; you'll end in doubt. If you start with doubt; you will end in certainty."

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by yuanfen
------------------------------------------------
For doing real damage- a well developed(short power) wing chun punch can be more effective than a right hook.
Takes time and proper development. Take a biomechanics class and I think you will reach a different conclusion.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Wingman


The bow & bowstring is the "angular extension" of the joints when you punch. These joints are the wrists, elbow, spine, hip/waist, knee, ankle, etc. The more joints involved in the punch the better.

When you pull the bowstring, the angle becomes acute (smaller); while the curvature of the bow increases. In the same manner when you "load" a punch, the angle of your joints either extend or constrict.

When you release the bowstring, the angle increases. In fact it straightens 180 degrees. Meanwhile, the curvature of the bow decreases. In the same manner when you throw the punch, the angles of those joints which extended when "loading" the punch will now contrict. On the other hand, the angles of those joints which constricted will now extend.

This constriction & extension of the angles of the joints must operate in unison in order to throw a powerful punch.


So your hand strecth when you release your bow and shoot the arrow?

strech or shrink when you shoot the arrow?

[AndrewS]

Knifefighter,

which biomechanics class?

How are you comparing the Wing Chun punch and a right hook?

Which right hook?

Silly questions aside, stylistic b.s. aside, why are you saying a hook is more powerful than a straight?

I've got a couple of biomechanics texts lying around the house, is there one in particular which you remember going into this?

Andrew

[yuanfen]

Andrew S asks KF:
I've got a couple of biomechanics texts lying around the house, is there one in particular which you remember going into this?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After a catty comment and a buzzword(bm) there is silence so far!

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Phenix



So your hand strecth when you release your bow and shoot the arrow?

strech or shrink when you shoot the arrow?
No, not the hand; but the angles of the joints.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Wingman

No, not the hand; but the angles of the joints.

I move this to the other 3 simple questions post.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Andrew S asks KF:
I've got a couple of biomechanics texts lying around the house, is there one in particular which you remember going into this?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After a catty comment and a buzzword(bm) there is silence so far! Sorry.. I don't live online.
A boxing hook uses more of the body's rotational power development than does a wing chun straight punch.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Sorry.. I don't live online.
A boxing hook uses more of the body's rotational power development than does a wing chun straight punch.

How so? A hook is disconnected from the body. I am not saying that a hook cannot be a strong punch. A straight punch is easily just as powerful as a hook. Try tossing a hook while not moving your feet and staying rooted, then try it with a straight punch. Which one feels more powerful? There is a time and a place for a hook punch and it is effective, otherwise it would not be used today. A straight punch uses the hip just like a hook does, it may just be a bit harder to develope the same body mechanics at first.

[yuanfen]

GF sez:
How so? A hook is disconnected from the body.
---------------------------------------------------------------
((Not really- a good hook is very well connected.
Can take your head off.
PS. KF- does not know good wing chun per his comments.
A well practiced char kuen has great torque in it- it's just not so obvious and the chain of power is different. The devil in the details))

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist


How so? A hook is disconnected from the body. I am not saying that a hook cannot be a strong punch. A straight punch is easily just as powerful as a hook. Try tossing a hook while not moving your feet and staying rooted, then try it with a straight punch. Which one feels more powerful? There is a time and a place for a hook punch and it is effective, otherwise it would not be used today. A straight punch uses the hip just like a hook does, it may just be a bit harder to develope the same body mechanics at first. - A hook is not disconnected from the body.
- A wing chun straight punch is quite a bit different than a boxing straight punch.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by yuanfen

A well practiced char kuen has great torque in it- it's just not so obvious and the chain of power is different. The devil in the details)) Funny how boxing power development is the same as all other activities that require high power development, but wing chun somehow has some other mystical "chain of power" development .

As far as why the hook has more power than the straight, it's the same reason why you swing a golf club, tennis racquet, or baseball bat in an arc-type motion.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Wing Chun is a great horse - but few can ride it. Just can't seem to get this comment out of my head.

A boxer's hook, or rear cross, or uppercut can have tremendous power because of the body torque...how many wing chun fighters can get the same kind of power out of ONE vertical wing chun punch coming from the center of the body?

Answer: very few.

Better question: Why are we comparing apples to oranges?

If I can hit someone 3x with a vertical wing chun punch before he can land one hook (which COULD happen) - then what does it matter?

But if I can't deal with his hook (and if I don't have a good one myself) - then I may be losing out.

Foolish and fragmented comparisons, IMO.

[Gangsterfist]

Western boxing and wing chun both agree that one gets power from the ground up. That is what I have been told by boxers and by several sifus.

The hook is somewhat disconnected from the body in the sense that the body is not fully behind the hook. A lot of people throw disconnected hooks all the time. A trained fighter is perhaps a lot different, but that is a different hook probably. There is rotation and definately hips into the swing, but we are talking about two different energies here. One energy is bludgeoning and surface damaging, while the other is piercing and penetrating damage. A hook punch is going to effect the body and make it torque in response, a straight punch (wing chun, boxing whatever) is drilling into your opponet and will do less surface damage and more penetrating damage.

However, a hook is still a very powerful punch. When Foreman fought Ali, Foreman would come in and practice at the same gym Ali would. Ali's bodyguards would not let Ali watch Foreman practice his bag work. That is because his hook punch would fold the heavy bag in half, and Foreman wanted to go in there to intimidate Ali and make him scared. So hooks can be powerful, but can you generate that same power Foreman can with his hook? It takes training just like any other kind of punch.

[Ernie]

hooks and wing chun punches
baseball bats and pole cues
muay Thai kick or savate

torque power vs. focused power



been dropped buy all of the above and have dropped people with all of the above

been on the end of a 270 pound boxer blasting me with a hook that sent me flying to the ground , was able to get up same boxer clipped be with a crispy jab placed just right and I went down .

power is irrelevant it's timing, distance , per scion


every one can ''see and hear'' the power of a hook or a Thai kick as it cracks the bag soooo impressive sooo amateur . then you watch a pro just tap the bag working on flow and timing and balance , you watch a savate guy in his silly tights just flicking the bag not impressive at all but when that silly little toe kick nails you in the solar plex or that or groin or kidneys you feel like something exploded in you .


just like a nice stiff crispy jab will zap you .

hitting a bag hard and making the crowd go wow means nothing if you can't deliver in motion against some one in motion . silly things like if it's connected to the body or not don't matter , it's if it connects with your chin , now theirs the problem .

I used to be enamored buy '' power '' till I actually got off my a$$ and faced it , realized it's not all that , real power has to be functional and that function has to do more with the skills it takes to deliver , proper timing and distance clarity , recognizing the ''sweet spot '' or setting it up .

allot of big guys , got allot of raw power , they don't ever develop finesse , they don't need it just get in and ground and pound , use that big torque engine . that's why they look so sloppy , granted a fight does get sloppy but it's because people cant control distance which in turn give you space and this leads to clarity for power delivery .

then you watch a pro that controls distance and he turns the brawler into a human punching bag , now the brawler might have way more power but can't get to his man so it's useless

so really level of power becomes irrelevant if you can't find a target to land on .


what am I getting at , well don't worry so much about power , power will be there if you have timing and distance . it could be a straight punch and hook a jab a base ball bat or a pool cue

doesn't matter how well you hit the heavy bag or the sand bag , thing is can you hit the man in motion and inflict damage . every thing else is just apples and oranges =)

p.s. screw the hook watch out for the over hand right ouch !!!!!!!

[AndrewS]

Knifefighter,

ignoring the attempt to start a cat fight. . .

you seem to be saying thay it's just obvious that a hook hits harder than a straight, look at these other things which make arcing motions, ignoring that delivering a straight (boxing, wing chun, xing yi, fencer's thrust) is a summation of arcs.

I don't buy that a hook is necessarily a harder punch than a straight, and I'm calling you on your attempt to cite academic authority. If you've got a decent reference, please give it, I want to know more, if you don't have one, don't tease.

Lastly- the difference between a full body powered boxing straight and a full-body powered wing chun straight- the latter is delivered biomechanically more like an uppercut with a lift of the hip and an elbow down position to facilitate transmitting power from the ground (like an uppercut). The boxing straight, as I understand it, is best delivered sitting down into the front leg to drop power in, and the elbow up works better for this means of power transmission (think decline bench position for shoulder girdle stabilization).

Ernie,

you speak the stone truth man. . .


Andrew

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by AndrewS
you seem to be saying thay it's just obvious that a hook hits harder than a straight, look at these other things which make arcing motions, ignoring that delivering a straight (boxing, wing chun, xing yi, fencer's thrust) is a summation of arcs. They may be a summation of arcs, but the lever arm is closer to the axis of rotation with a straight punch. The the longer the lever arm from the axis, the more power development you have- a basic principle of biomechanics.


Originally posted by AndrewS
I don't buy that a hook is necessarily a harder punch than a straight, and I'm calling you on your attempt to cite academic authority. If you've got a decent reference, please give it, I want to know more, if you don't have one, don't tease.
I haven't seen any specific research comparing the two types of strikes (although I'd be willing to bet it is probably out there in a Ph.d dissertation or two). That's why I didn't cite any particular studies, but rather made my comment about the biomechanics class. Knowing the principles of biomechanics allows you to apply them to a variety of situations, such as making this comparison.


Originally posted by AndrewS
The boxing straight, as I understand it, is best delivered sitting down into the front leg to drop power in, and the elbow up works better for this means of power transmission (think decline bench position for shoulder girdle stabilization).
While a couple of boxers have advocated dropping down, most boxers don't do this (and biomechanical principles support not dropping down). They use a push/rotation of the rear foot along with a full body rotation, rather than trying to "drop down" into the punch. A boxing straight ends with the arm extended and the shoulder facing the opponent, which allow for a fuller rotation of the "power chain" than does WC.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ernie
power is irrelevant it's timing, distance , per scion While timing, distance, etc. are obviously an important part of the equation, power is VERY relevant. That's why there are weight divisions in combative sports. A heavyweight fighter can deliver much more power than a flyweight and will be much more likely to knock out the flyweight than the other way around.


Originally posted by Ernie
just like a nice stiff crispy jab will zap you . The jab cannot make use of the body's ability to use rotation to develop power. That's why it is very rare to see a knockout with the jab and it is used instead to set up the power punches that allow for a fuller rotation.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
While timing, distance, etc. are obviously an important part of the equation, power is VERY relevant. That's why there are weight divisions in combative sports. A heavyweight fighter can deliver much more power than a flyweight and will be much more likely to knock out the flyweight than the other way around.

The jab cannot make use of the body's ability to use rotation to develop power. That's why it is very rare to see a knockout with the jab and it is used instead to set up the power punches that allow for a fuller rotation.

I disagree, I have seen people get dropped from chi saoing when someone gets a good hit in. Both practitioners arms are always touching and they don't have a lot of room to build momentum. They have to use short range of motion to develope their power. I have been trapped by a cup jong elbow and then have that elbow drop about an inch and strike me, and it has dropped me before.

Power is important, but delivery is more important IMHO. The ability to land a hit and how you deliver it is what makes the strike a knock out, or just a glancing blow. However, if you hit as hard as misquito bite obviously you are going to have a hard time knocking anyone out. That is somewhat irrevelant though, when training kung fu you by consequence do get some conditioning and strength training. It may be minimal, but its still there.

Again, it comes down to the individual. If you can perform energy release within an inch, ba fa jing, then great. If you cannot then maybe the more heavy handed strikes are for you. The both work, niehter is right or wrong. However, if you cannot deliver your powerful strike then its pretty much useless.

[yuanfen]

so- no specific bio mechanics research evidence yet- just
usage as a buzzword.

I just let kf's skepticism and sarcasm go its own way.

I listen, share and show when I need to or want to and prefer not to argue. No dignity, pride or self defense involved in a net forum.Just a chat place.

But FWIW- I know what a hook is, an uppercut, a jab and a whole tool box of wing chun punches and motions.There was a time when I would use boxer's motions- dont need to- plenty of power in wing chun and ability to redirect that power..and plenty left in reserve with proper timing.. I learned step by step by practice and experience-correlated with conceptual understanding. Didnt learn from videos-mine, theirs or whatever.

Kung fu, yoga and many other things were developed experimentally over time- before there were bio mechanics texts.
Bio mechanics-Wonderful subject- wearing another hat- I know somethings about it's role in understanding and the curriculum.. Sometimes disciplined knowledge catches up with what is experimentally known over time. And disciplined knowledge can help improve what one knows.
Until Chen taiji hit the western scene- did any biomechanics book deal with "fajing"? Did Tony two ton galente develop his left hook froma biomechanics class? Or Tua?.
On this thread so far-kf intro of the term "bio mechanics"-is justa buzzword.

[Gangsterfist]

I found these articles interesting about biomechanics and martial arts. Here are some links for your reading pleasure:

http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/ESSAY.html

http://itfnz.org.nz/ref/essays/bio-tkd.htm

I found a ton of other related items from doing a google search but these two stuck out at me at first.

[yuanfen]

GF- I know about Montaigne- very inetersting and informative but he is a taiji practitioner- not a bio mechanics researcher.

The other article is interesting but limited to tkd. There is a
Korean Ph.D student at my U whi is doing experimental bio mechanics for his dissertation on TKD kicks. Good wishes- but not my journey.

[Gangsterfist]

Yeah well I was searching in relation to martial arts. When that guy you know publishes his TKD kicks article please post it. I find this stuff all interesting.

The thing is its hard to find a huge study in the martial arts field of bio mechanics, most of them just study the athlete. I found tons of articles on track and filed.

[AndrewS]

Knifefighter,

the lever arm on a straight is closer to the axis of rotation than on a hook, therefore you'll get more power? What are you defining as the axis of rotation and lever arm for each? I may be missing something, but, assuming both use weight transfer (back leg to front for the straight, left to right for the hook), the axis of rotation for both is the center of the body. A hook is generally thrown with the hand a little more than the length of the humerus off the chest; a straight, well, straight. What are you counting as the lever arm here- distance from hand to axis of rotation? Axis to elbow or hand for the hook, and axis to shoulder for the straight seem the only way your definition would fit- is that what you're using?

Kinda makes me wonder why the release phaze of shotputting is closer to a straight. . .

Why doesn't biomechanics support dropping down into a punch? I've learned to drive off the rear and drop into the front leg, fwiw.

Andrew

[Ernie]

\\\While timing, distance, etc. are obviously an important part of the equation, power is VERY relevant. That's why there are weight divisions in combative sports. A heavyweight fighter can deliver much more power than a flyweight and will be much more likely to knock out the flyweight than the other way around.\\\

dude , that's just cause a bigger man with the same power source will always hit harder ,

people fall victom to over commited power because the suck or have under developed footwork speed and timing ,

power is an illusion

you have fought you know the difference from an scrub with size and wieght that just goes raging bull but blows his wad after an all out assult

or a seasoned fighter that just conserves his energy stays relaxed , knows when to fire and when to surf off the other dude

and partner i speak first hand i'm no slouch in the power department around 6 foot and 200 pounds i can easily fold a heavy bag with my cross hook or kick no problem

but when you mess around with some one that controls distance all that power just cost me air .

now here is the difference you got to check your ego at the door and give the powerhouse rope to choke himself
but if you go all balls dummy style ground and pound i got the biggest ****** then who cares about finesse and skill , just be in better shape then the other cat

but in a street situation ''which is all i care about '' mobility calmness timing and control of distance are the great equalizers
i mean really how much power does it take to pull off and eye jab or a groin shot .
risk vs. reward ratio


as for the jab bro , if you got nice shuffle foot work you can bend someones head back with a stiff jab it's all in the momentum and timeing

same footwork will work behind a lead striaght punch

but like i said i can only comment on what i can do or have had done to me

i have been hit buy wing chun men and boxers 50 plus pounds lighter then me in motion that have sat me down both bare knuckled and i got respect for both

i will use and develop any weapon that might get me home . i don't care much for hooks or upper cuts in the street there ar more ballistic tools that follow the same line and range , elbows and knees

on other big thing to look at in the power discussion , boxer by far develop more power then wing chun but most of the boxers i know break there hands in street fights with out the glove or wrist wraps , so why over develop power just a waste

[yuanfen]

There are many kinds of power!

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by AndrewS
What are you counting as the lever arm here- distance from hand to axis of rotation? Axis to elbow or hand for the hook, and axis to shoulder for the straight seem the only way your definition would fit- is that what you're using? Yes, the shoulder is closer to the axis of rotation than the elbow. The straight is thrown at the same rotational distance as the shoulder, while the hook is thrown at the same rotational distance as the elbow.

Maximum power is also developed at the center of the arc. This is where the hook is delivered, while the straight is thrown past the center of the arc.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ernie
power is an illusion
Really? Have you seen Bob Sapp, Mirco Cro-Cop, or Mike Tyson fight? That looks like a lot of power there to me.

Bob Sapp is a perfect example of someone with very little timing, or distance awareness. Yet, he has several times wasted people with significantly more of those attributes than he has. Or were those just illusions?


Originally posted by Ernie
you have fought... That's exactly why I respect power development so much. Power is not everything, but it is a huge part of the equation... especially in a street fight.



Originally posted by Ernie
boxer by far develop more power then wing chun but most of the boxers i know break there hands in street fights with out the glove or wrist wraps , so why over develop power just a wasteI'd much rather develop enough power to break my hand on someone's face than to not have that power available.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Kung fu, yoga and many other things were developed experimentally over time- before there were bio mechanics texts.Maybe that's one of the reasons why so many kung fu guys who stick to only the "old" methods have trouble putting their techniques into real applications.


Originally posted by yuanfen
Did Tony two ton galente develop his left hook froma biomechanics class? Or Tua?.No, but their techniques are in accordance with correct biomechanical principles. That's why they are so powerful.

[Ernie]

bro were just different
as for the fighters you mentioned there just individuals , i would have to see if those training mehtods they used worked universaly i don't get to hyped on what this or that single person can do

i would trade one well plced head butt for 50 hooks
and one knee to the balls for 100 upper cuts

and an eye jab that lands right to any of the above ,

and my hands stay safe with all of the above and i don't need to expend much '' power ''

i am a very very dirty fighter and that is all i ever aspire to be

it takes nothing for me to break a guys wrist that fires a monster hook or cross just put up an elbow and let him hurt himself .
done it many times
and had the same results , so when i see a really hard hitting person i get very happy
it's like cool man bring in all the heat and hit me with all you got ,
and then sorry bro you should ice that wrist it looks nasty

i recently head butted a guys right cross and busted up his knuckles just to see if i could , sure i got a little welt on my head but he was a mess

smat thing with powerful kicks i get all happy when i see some one loading up for that rough guy kick

catch the tip of my knee and down they go were is all that power now

that's why to me over commited power is not a big deal

clear percise power is better ,

for me and what i want

if i were in the ring then it would be all about lead with speed and finish with power

[[[[[especially in a street fight.]]]]]]

power has very little to do with a street fight , an ego driven man to man face to face thing yes but a grimey good old fashion bust you in the head with a table or brick then no

conditioning and street awarness

i fear a street savy dude
but a big ole jock is just fun to beat on there very pridictable
they like to grab and squeeze and drive you through stuff like a big roller coaster ride

then they get winded

and the real fight begins


:D

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ernie
it takes nothing for me to break a guys wrist that fires a monster hook or cross just put
up an elbow and let him hurt himself .
done it many times
and had the same results , so when i see a really hard hitting person i get very happy
it's like cool man bring in all the heat and hit me with all you got ,
and then sorry bro you should ice that wrist it looks nasty

i recently head butted a guys right cross and busted up his knuckles just to see if i could , sure i got a little welt on my head but he was a mess

smat thing with powerful kicks i get all happy when i see some one loading up for that rough guy kick

catch the tip of my knee and down they go were is all that power now Wow, you must have trouble keeping training partners.:rolleyes:

[Ultimatewingchun]

You don't have to be THE most powerful or THE strongest guy in the fight - you only need ENOUGH power and strength to HURT the guy you've just hit/kicked/kneed/elbowed/locked...enough to hurt him bad...but you don't necessarily have to be stronger or more powerful than he is...because if you've got your WIND...and if you've got BETTER technique - like some of what Ernie described (although truthfully I don't like trying to stop rear crosses with my head)......As a matter of fact - didn't Mirko Cro Cop beat Bob Sapp ????

And didn't he do it with better technique and ENOUGH power to hurt Sapp...Waaaay better technique (and speed)...against a man with more power and strength.

So what's up with all this?

[Ernie]

Wow, you must have trouble keeping training partners.

train it with gear first silly get the timing and distance then get in the ring and work it with a boxer , just pull it get the feel but if you get the over amped knuckle head then let him have a taste and he will calm down

dude your the knife fighter this is all basic filipino concept defang the snake stuff
nothing new

victor

sometimes i just get the wild hair up my a$$ and try something just to see what it feels like

won't need to do it again :D

[[(although truthfully I don't like trying to stop rear crosses with my head)....]]

nothing special i just moved in a bit and smothered the timing

you those silly little tools distance and timing

they can shut down power easy enough not rocket science
but these idea's are not '' tough guy style '' the old thai fighter mindset i can take go ahead give me your best shot , ha ha ha

i first started figureing this stuff out sparring with thai fighters couldn't hurt them at there game so i stopped looking at it that way and changed the rules
things got alot easier then . now i have to go outside and kick a tree so i canhardcore my shins, yea right :D

[chisauking]

Wing Chun power mostly comes from foundation, good body mechanics, muscles and loi ging (internal, focused energy).

It’s true that in the main, the wing chun yat-chee kune isn’t as powerful as some of the punches in western boxing, but what it lacks in ultimate power, it more than make up for in speed. Speed is by far more important than power, because in a real fight it doesn’t matter whether you are hit by a little hammer ( wing chun punch ) or a sledgehammer ( boxing cross hook), as long as you land the first hit. After all, a little hammer is just as effective as a sledgehammer when you use it on someone’s eye or temple or bridge of nose. Why use a sledgehammer to crack a nut, so to speak.

[anerlich]

It’s true that in the main, the wing chun yat-chee kune isn’t as powerful as some of the punches in western boxing, but what it lacks in ultimate power, it more than make up for in speed. Speed is by far more important than power, because in a real fight it doesn’t matter whether you are hit by a little hammer ( wing chun punch ) or a sledgehammer ( boxing cross hook),

I would like to think your argument is correct ... but really there is IMO very little biomechanical difference, as far as above the waist is concerned, between a WC punch and Jack Dempsey's straight punches as detailed in "Championship Fighting", and used by Mike Tyson in his early peekaboo days.

WC's structure arguably allows you to deliver MORE punches in a given interval of time than a boxer can (assuming the target is still there after you tried to hit it), but not necessarily to deliver the first punch faster. I would still bet on Ali in his prime outjabbing any of his WC contemporaries, and having knockout power behind that jab. Same with Kostya Tszyu in modern times.

As for hitting the guy in the eye, throat, temple, etc. boxers can do that too if they are not in the ring.

Bruce Lee wrote "it's often not how fast it travels but how quickly it gets there that counts", but this requires other skills other than correct punch structure such as footwork, not something WC is generally noted for.

If you think a fast ball hammer is fine and one punch is enough, good luck. In "real fights", surprisingly many people don't fall in a heap after the first shot connects.

I'd rather have good defensive skills with two very fast sledgehammers, and learn to use them in combination. Settling for anything else is dangerous IMO.

I have to agree with KF about punching power - not learning to hit too hard because you might hurt your hands if you do makes no sense. For real confrontations, boxing mechanics work just fine for straight palm strikes and hooking elbows, and the use of brass knuckles, punch rings , other weapons etc. can negate any possibility of breaking a fist.

Assuming all a boxer is going to do is punch you in a real confrontation is about as sensible as assuming you can beat a grappler by biting, gouging, eye jabs etc. because you assume grapplers outside the gym never do any of that stuff and will just try to do gi chokes and armbars on you.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ernie
train it with gear first silly get the timing and distance then get in the ring and work it with a boxer , just pull it get the feel but if you get the over amped knuckle head then let him have a taste and he will calm down

catch the tip of my knee and down they go were is all that power now

i first started figureing this stuff out sparring with thai fighters...So, you are training with boxers who are gloved and wrapped. Yet you have broken their wrists "many times" with elbow destructions...
And Thai fighters are dropping when they happen to land a kick on your raised knee...
Is that what you are saying?

[Ernie]

So, you are training with boxers who are gloved and wrapped. Yet you have broken their wrists "many times" with elbow destructions...
And Thai fighters are dropping when they happen to land a kick on your raised knee...
Is that what you are saying?


ha so we are reaching for extemes o.k. i'll play

i have used pain infliction and still use it all the time yes

like anything i have control and can injure to degree
just like when you drop your big power shots you can pull it

so by useing the a litle foot work and fadeing i can dissapate the shot

if i lean in a bit even through the glove i have sprained boxers wrist yes never broke it

i to when i was on the recieveing end of the distructions has my wrist sprained a few times '' feel to appreciate thing ''

i have been dropped by knee distruction and shut down many thai kicks

to be honest i simply cheat , since i have no desire to compete in any type of event , i have no need for legal techniques , once your free of those chains you can really dial in things that simply circumvent all the b.s.

but like anything if you don't get in and work it off fast strong people you won't get it

so when i would spar i let them do what ever i just get onmy toes and stay just out of reach and leave my face open but hands held high so the elbow doesn't have much room to go to cover center since i close the hook line and stay to far out for a good body shot , people naturally head hunt and instead of doing a rear hand parry pop the tip of the elbow in

if you can parry a shot you can kill the shot
power shots are easier to read then jabs so there easier to kill

same with kicking leave a leg out and bait them when they take the bait kill the leg

now is this going to happen all the time no but when it works it's a good thing

now this is not a wing chun thing ,i was taught it as a porcupine defense i think it was called
but it just makes more sense to me then trying to sit there and pound on each other
i am a coward and have no desire to prove how tough i am :D

but in reality i have to have the power to finish him off once i sting him so that's when its time for the heavy guns , but not until i secure the target

they guy i head butted did have to seek alittle medical attention but that was because he was trying to get crazy on a drill after i asked him to calm down and he had allready hit me heavy a few times so i said ef it

we just have different mind sets no worries

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie: Not using the heavy guns until you secure the target is always the smartest thing to do.

KF: So what about Cro-Cop and Sapp's fight?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
So what about Cro-Cop and Sapp's fight? Sapp = Power + Strength + Size.
Cro-Cop = Power + Technique + Timing + Distance + Experience.
Cro-Cop > Sapp

Take away Cro-Cop's power (much of which comes from his correct biomechanical technique) and he loses his advantage over Sapp.

[Nick Forrer]

A few random thoughts

IMV A lot of thought was put into wing chun by our ancestors. It seems to me that certain trade offs were made between, on the one hand, power and, on the other, positioning. Wing chuns body positioning and structure (i.e. upright, square on with elbows in and forward at close range to the opponent) is such as to allow for quick recovery when an attack misses or is deflected. Thus the the time it takes to establish a new line of attack when the old one is lost is kept to a minimum. In fact i'd go so far to say that wing chun, by virtue of its very design, recovers faster from a thwarted attack than any other striking art. This is what gives wing chun when done properly its relentless, always one step ahead, strategic quality. They may stop the first one but in doing so they will expose themselves elsewhere (like sending all your men to one end of the castle wall to fend off attackers while another party sneak around the other side).

Of course more power can be generated in a punch by really pulling the fist back, throwing all your weight behind it and charging forward ( a la the haymaker beloved of bar room brawlers and street thugs the world over) but this is easy to detect and thus avoid and leaves the executor in a vulnerable position if it misses.

The question then becomes how to maximise ones power within the biomechanical parameters that the system places on you (or rather that you have set for yourself since you have elected to do it). This is the origin of 'inch' force and the question of how best to cultivate it. I will try and post how I think this is achieved when i have more time.

[Marky]

"Of course more power can be generated in a punch by really pulling the fist back..."

Untrue. The velocities of the two objects (the one hitting and the one being hit) are primary factors. The reason people pull back their fists is because they don't know how to generate the ACCELERATION that will let them hit as hard over a shorter DISTANCE. In other words, if you can attack with greater acceleration over a shorter distance, the resulting velocity will be the same and so will the amount of damage inflicted. But for most people, it's easier just to accelerate more slowly over a larger distance. I only point this out because a "haymaker" is an attack that is utilized due to the FLAWS of the attacker, not the BENEFITS of the attack!

[Nick Forrer]

Perhaps i should have endeavoured to make myself clearer.

In a 100m race a sprinter takes time and thus distance (relatively speaking) to reach their maximum speed. - same as with a car.
Similarly the further an object has to fall the more momentum it will generate and thus impact it will have when it finally hits the ground.

Also if you think a wing chun punch is more powerful than a haymaker go to one of those fairground punching machines and hit it, first from one inch distance without pulling your fist back and then with a five meter run up flinging all your bodyweight behind it. See which one gives you the higher score.

[anerlich]

"Of course more power can be generated in a punch by really pulling the fist back..."

One way or another, to generate power you need to take the "slack" out of the structure so the muscualture and tendons can exert maximum leverage, and generate maximum accelleration, on the striking appendage. The multiplicity of joints in the body means there are many ways to accomplish this ... one of them being pulling the fist back and pre-stretching the arm and chest muscles. The hook in boxing does this by moving the body ahead of the fist - the fist doesn't draw back, ratherthe body moves and pulls the shoulder, arm and fist after it, like a stone from a sling.

A practitioner CAN generate enough power to do damage without pulling the fist back ... but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to generate MORE power by pulling it back. The reasons for not pulling the fist back are to do with getting the punch to the target faster, avoiding telegraphing and keeping a good defensive structure, NOT power generation.


I only point this out because a "haymaker" is an attack that is utilized due to the FLAWS of the attacker, not the BENEFITS of the attack!

There is a world of difference between an untrained person's haymaker and attacks such as a boxing hook or Choy Li Fut flailing punch. If you can't see the difference, I suggest upping your medical insurance.

[Marky]

"There is a world of difference between an untrained person's haymaker and attacks such as a boxing hook or Choy Li Fut flailing punch. If you can't see the difference, I suggest upping your medical insurance."

Agreed.