how much is the value of...

[David Jamieson]

beginning your training at say or 7 years old?

Here's why I ask.

I started learning martial arts when i was a kid too, but they didn't have any meaning for me til i got beat in a fight at about 15 years old.

so, that training as a kid sure didn't do much for me obviously even though it was totally valid training.

but at virtually every site i go to, there is a bio page saying "so and so begantraining at 6 or 7 or 8 years old"

I don't see any value in this personally.

now, what i do consider good is:

so and so has brought x amount of students to instructor level in the x amount of years they have been teaching in their own school and a fight record doesn't hurt at all either.

anybody get where i'm coming from? i don't get the whole "done it all my life therefore i must be good" stance.

in fighting and in martial arts it seems like it's more of a question of what have you done lately.

not putting down any of the old timers, but bringing someone else to a level of proficiency and hard proof of your skill such as this, or your fight record or your students fight record would seem to have much more value that is if you are going to promote yourself through print or a website.

especially these days in this put up or shut up era of the new martial arts.

after all, your doctor didn't start training when he was 5 did he? and we know that surgery takes more skill tahn a heckofalotta things and does also become a lifelong practice.

is it just me, or does anyone else think this phrasology is a bit tired?

cheers:D

[MasterKiller]

I don't know. I really don't think you start developing the ability to understand pure fighting skills until 14 or so....but Olympic athletes start training very young; however, most of the people who say "I've been training since I was 3" do not train remotely as hard as Olympic athletes, so my beef is more with the kinds of people who say they did start young rather than with the actual practice of it.

[Shaolinlueb]

i see the purpose in it. if you have the right kind of teacher and the kid actually loves doing it. you cna work your flexibility and learn the basics really well. with knowing those thigns well, you can learn stuff quicker later on. depends though ont he seriousness of the student and the good skillz of the teacher.

[David Jamieson]

your whole body changes drastically from about 13 - 18 though.

not much you ca do about it, it's natural.

I just don't think that saying that kind of thing brings a lot to teh table overall.

I do see where it can give you a more knowledgable outlook of an artform in and of itself, but many guys start like i did in karate, then go to judo, then boxing, then find kungfu or a different karate or what have you.

Plus, if you learn muay thai for 6 years, you startat the bottom with kungfu and learn all over again, same in reverse, or if you pick up bjj then you kungfu really doesn't bring much to the table (brings more in striking arts really, but not rolling), anyway, the gracie challenge and vale tudo matches proved that didn't they lol. :D

but, i can see that you can never know it all and be total master of ranges and unarmed combat so i don't understand where that idea came from that if you did it as a kid, it's valid as an adult.

not sure if that is a valid credential.

cheers

[red5angel]

as with all things the sooner the better. Just because you may not get anything of "value" until your older doesn't mean getting a head start isn't going to make big difference.

[Ray Pina]

It's good for developing ability.

My master has a kids class on Sat. that his daughter runs. They do a ton of $hit that is hard to get through: low Ba Gua walking (like duck walk), tons of drills to losen the hip, build a strong foundation.

He doesn't want them fighting.

One of them, a sophmore in HS, just came up to the mens class. He can take full power punching from most of the adults. He has so much ability, now he's being shown the practical use.

I started young. Doing forms, holding horse stances, sparring, they all prepare you. Even point sparring as a kid works on your timing, you subconsciouly learn about entering, ect.

Just like you, I was woken up when I was 8 or 9 and the older kid up the block busted my knose open. I couldn't understand how it happened and was glad as hell my mom caught us and broke it up. I was too proud to back down but not built enough to fight a pubescent male.

My sensei was actually pretty good and incorporated free sparring and kids would get blood noses and lips from time to time and he had an old tub in the back room and you'd go back there and wash up. We were kids, so no one was getting maimed but good learning.

I hope if I have a son or daughter someday they'll be interested by 5. The challenge is to make it exciting while teaching.

[David Jamieson]

well i've "played" with for real guys who been doing it since they were kids and have beaten them afir and square.

Conversely, i've played with guys who got 10 years in with a specific and they proved to be a real challenge, moreso than the ones who started as kids.

now, take someone like jet li, (all bs argument aside), heres a guy who started as a kid, competed as a kid and was a champion as a kid and carried this all the way forward into adulthood.

there's a track record there see what I'm saying?

Now, with any other number of "ted the ma instructor" types out there, many of them are hobbyist and have never done the arts to that level or at the caliber where the value of starting young and the continuance has value.

see where i'm coming from?

so, i don't get where the value is in so many folks use this in their sites and in mag articles. especially those guys who don't do the cycle of hard proof vis a vis the vehicles of pro or amateur fighting, international and national competition, or yes, i'm gonna say it, film and film support.

it just got me thinking about it. when i re-release my site, i don't think i'm gonna bother with the fact that i started training martial arts at 9 just so i can say i have more than 30 years experience.

while it is factually true, i don't believe it is wholly true. so i can only speak for myself i guess, but i also gues i am not the only one.

cheers

[Ray Pina]

People use a lot of things to sell themselves: uniforms, atmosphere, web sites, titles, lineage, style names, ect.

Luckily for us this is martial arts, if you really want to know how good they are it's easy enough. The guy off the street has to luck into a good school. Someone with 5+ years training has nobody to blame but themselves for winding up in a joking around school.

As for age and martial arts. Will you be better 5 years from now? How about 20 years from now?

There is always the instruction/dedication factor. But all things equal, the more time you spend training the better you get.

I've seen kids forced to train by there parents and they spent years at the dojo and sucked. Meanwhile kids came in, passed them in ranking and would beat them easily.

Lot's of factors in skill: natural ability, aptitude, time.

[Ford Prefect]

Soviets did a lot of research on the subject and it pointed to the fact that not only were complex motor patterns easier to develop as a child, but developmentally we build a base in which all our other activity stems from at a young age as well. Scientifically speaking, if one starts training that early, then they have the potential to aquire a level of technical skill superior to that of somebody who started at age 15 all else being equal (inherent levels of athleticism, coordination, etc).

[rubthebuddha]

ford's right ... again.

as a kid, getting the gross motor coordination down is extremely important. so is developing habits in hard work, general activity, etc.

kids are naturally loose and agile, and they develop coordination and flexibility along with it, they'll be much better off later in life.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Soviets did a lot of research on the subject and it pointed to the fact that not only were complex motor patterns easier to develop as a child, but developmentally we build a base in which all our other activity stems from at a young age as well. Scientifically speaking, if one starts training that early, then they have the potential to aquire a level of technical skill superior to that of somebody who started at age 15 all else being equal (inherent levels of athleticism, coordination, etc). But does fighting skill transfer?

Would it be better to train kids in more athletic pursuits young so that they could transfer those acquired benefits to fighting when they were older? For example, put them in gymnastics until they reach 12, then put them in martial arts? Would it matter?

[Ford Prefect]

Mostly, that's how they began training them. They tested nearly the entire population to see if they showed any particular natural talent for an activity. (not sure what the testing parameters were and how they ascertained the results) They'd begin the young children in athletic games to build levels of GPP (General Physical Preparedness). Then they would start to incorporate more complex motor skills to start developing traits specifically geared towards whatever athletic event they feel the child is suited (boxing, gymnastics, swimming, wrestling etc), aka SPP Specific/Special Physical Preparedness.

Mind you, this is all done at a very young age. Only after the SPP is introduced and the child still showed a natural talent for that athletic event, then they'd go into training that event directly. Some children took to the training and as far as boxing, wrestling, judo/sambo were concerned jumped right into combat or developing skills suited towards combat. Not every student will take to the training.

[Judge Pen]

Most training seems to be wasted on kids. Having said that, we have this 7 year old kid that's amazing. Hits with full intent, can do everymove, trains seriously in class and at home, and loves to spar. We had a visiting advanced student come to our kids class and we asked him to "help" Joe with his sparring. Joe's first move was a spinning back kick into the guy's groin and then he hit him in the mouth when he doubled over. :p He's a good kid and will be great if umpteen other things don't get in the way as he gets older.

Makes you wish every kid you have to teach was that way.

[kungfu cowboy]

Children are weird. And very immature. It's rude.

[quiet man]

Jerry: You guys both have class at the same time?

Kramer: No, we're in the same class.

Jerry: What do you mean you're in the same class?

Kramer: He almost beat me.

Jerry: Kramer, you're fighting children?!

Kramer: We're all at the same skill level, Jerry.

Jerry: He's nine years old! You don't need karate, you can just wring his neck!