Nan Dao

[CaptinPickAxe]

What southern styles use this weapon? how does its movement differ from the Northern Broadsword? Just a simple question.

This thread will self destruct in 48hrs

[Ben Gash]

We all ask this question periodically, and no-one knows it. I have seen a Hop Gar website that shows them using it, but they're just doing standard Dao postures.

[saolim]

As far as I know, the nan dao was especially designed for the modern Wushu routine as we know it today. The design is based on several models of swords used in the past.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by saolim
As far as I know, the nan dao was especially designed for the modern Wushu routine as we know it today. The design is based on several models of swords used in the past.

thats what I thought too.

[CaptinPickAxe]

interesting...

so basically its so martial artist can feel like the blonde guy from Final Fantasy 7? So much for asthetics.

[ZhouJiaQuan]

almost, its basically so wushu guys can feel like that...

btw is ff7 the one with the magician guy that keeps falling over or is that ff9?

[CaptinPickAxe]

I think that is nine...its definitly not ff7.

What is this? http://www.wle.com//products/W262.html
are they just making swords for looks now days?

[Ben Gash]

It's what it says it is, a ghost head sword. CLF has it (although I've never seen it). I assume in application it's similar to a 9 ring executioners knife.

[Ben Gash]

Incidentally, I was reading a book this week on the armies aof the Ming and Qing, and appaerently a sword very similar to the Nan dao was popular between 1600 and 1850.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
Incidentally, I was reading a book this week on the armies aof the Ming and Qing, and appaerently a sword very similar to the Nan dao was popular between 1600 and 1850.

interesting. in the movie deadly melody wiht yian biao (sp?) he uses a sword that looks like the nan dao.

[Southern Fist]

Contemporary Southern Wushu practitioners use this broadsword. As the name implies Nan(south) Dao (sword).
Classical southern stylist do not used it much. If they did it would be village styles or military. The design comes from executioners sword for beheading.
The difference in technique from northern is the Nandao is used for chopping,large slashing moves. In the north broadswords you use it more for slashing, stabbing, cutting.

The ghost head sword is and executioners style sword as well.
It can be played the same as the Nandao.

In my opinion this Sword was popular in the early 20th century due to a group of martial artist who would make raids against forgein soldiers camps. as mentioned as executitioners against those forgein soldiers.
:cool:

[GeneChing]

There are two blades associated with southern styles, the nan dao (http://store.martialartsmart.net/45-76.html) as mentioned above and the kan dao (http://store.martialartsmart.net/broadtwinkan.html) (kan means "chop"). Also jiu-huan dao (http://store.martialartsmart.net/45-62cs.html) are common (jiu huan means nine-ring - a common variation is the the jiu-gou (nine hook) shown above. (A ghost head (or gui tao dao) typically has a different dorsal pattern than the one listed above - more like a cloud or wave pattern with only a few rings. That really should be called a jiu-gou.)

All of these dao are used more commonly by the southern styles. I'm not going to address the nine-ring/hook or ghost head right now because those are much different. Let just focus on the kan and nan. What makes them different from the standard dao is that they have a broader blade, a longer handle (what we might call a hand-and-a-half handle) and a ring pommel. Generally shorter, wider blades were used for close combat (like on ships) in contrast to longer curved blades used by horseman (like shamishir or "scimitar"). This certainly falls in line with southern CMA tactics. Also wider blades were used when the sowrd steel wasn't as sophisticated, like in Roman swords. This fall in line with the southern cultures, which were more tribal (like Yunnan) and more cured in their sword forging. We've distinguised our kan dao as being curved and our nan dao as being straight, but that's not set in stone. Like the ghost head example above, you'll see variations in the terms simply because it's not necessarily standardized (or well researched).

I've just started working with kan/nan dao in O-Mei style and xingyi sword sparring and I'm finding it quite interesting. The contrast is subtle, but logical. I keep feeling like I'm in too close because all of the sword I've studied previous was longer. But in fact, it is a closer combat weapon than the common dao. In fighting means you use your left hand more and can do things like hiding the sword behind you. You can really tell the difference when someone is using the wrong type of sword for the form - probably the most glaring and common example is when someone uses a common dao for taiji dao (http://store.martialartsmart.net/45-60kk.html). If you really understand the weapon, the variation in properties must affect the way you use it. It's like the difference between how you drive an SUV and a compact. Unfortunately, much of this is getting muddled now because of the interpretive nature of forms practice. Few people really understand how to cut or fight with a sword - it's quite different than with a stick. padded swords (http://store.martialartsmart.net/3507.html) will give you a sense of sparring, but you lose the sentiment du fer which is critical.

[David Jamieson]

isn't "dao" or "do" meaning "knife? and not sword?

??

???

lol

just sayin.... :)

p.s Gene, nice reference to "Giving the Sword" man! You must have a renewed interest in fencing? or at least it's terminology? ;)

[Ironwind]

Would the Butterfly Blades of Wing Chun be an example ofthe Nan Doa.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Ironwind
Would the Butterfly Blades of Wing Chun be an example ofthe Nan Doa. No.

[Shaolinlueb]

i jsut started this form tonight. its neato so far.

[GeneChing]

You must have a renewed interest in fencing? or at least it's terminology? If you're going to talk about swordplay in English, fencing terms are the best. Now if you're going to talk about it in Japanese, that's another matter. It's trickiest in Chinese, so I try to avoid that.

[Banjos_dad]

I saw in a documentary about the Japanese occupation of Nanking (sp?), old black and white movie footage, a guy was walking down the road with a kan dao. Had the ring pommel & wide blade. I think that was before 1930 or even 1920? Makes the think the kan dao is not of modern origin?

[CaptinPickAxe]

I haven't been here in awhile. Thanks Gene and everyone for the info on Nan Daos and other related weapons.

The piece of info I found most interesting was the executioner bit... I should of relized that by the looks of it.

Also, I almost bought "little head choppers" at a gun show about 2 years ago. I think y'all refered to them as Kan Dao.

[GeneChing]

Wider blades are better for chopping, just take a butcher knife as an example. They are also easier to fashion, especially if one edged. So yes, there are plenty of antique examples throughout the Qing period. I can't think of any earlier examples, but I wouldn't doubt that they exist.

Interestingly, since decapitation has been in the news, there was a particular kind of sword that arose in Europe as a headsman's sword. It was akin to a broadsword, but with no tip - a wide blade like a kan dao. Since it was only used for chopping, the tip wasn't necessary. There was often a three-foil piercing towards the foible, which I'm told was a reference to the trinity. Also, the example I saw was engraved with the words 'fiat justicia'

[Banjos_dad]

The image of the man walking down the road with the kan dao stays in my minds eye.
Something about the image of this man says, he's not on his way to the park to practice forms. It was chilling to realize that dimension of mortality.
I wish I could cite the program. It was about the Rape of Nanking (I'm sorry). I researched a little bit & it was around 1937.

When I think of decapitations in Western culture I think of a fat shirtless guy in a black mask, with a double-bitted axe...maybe too cliche to be frightening any more.

[GeneChing]

Yeah, that's a funny image of decapitators and torturers - something like out of Shrek (although I think Life of Brian nailed it better). They had some footage of Japanese troops decaptating Chinese with sword in Jackie Chan's Traces of the Dragon (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=29236). Jackie's dad described witnessing that first hand and it was chilling too. He said something like the neck pulled in at first, like a turtle, then the body fell and the blood gushed. There's that ox decapition in Apocalypse Now too. What a horrible way to go.

[Vince]

GeneChing said: I've just started working with kan/nan dao in O-Mei

I know it is kind of an old topic. But could you please tell me some more on that topic or is there any more source of info on the web?