The Power of Tai Chi Chuan

[Empty Fist]

I thought this was pretty cool so I figured that I would share it with everyone. To get a better understanding of Tai Chi martial applications, I took up Shotokan Karate for several months. Many of the applications (punches, kicks, blocks) in Shotokan are very similar to the forms in Tai Chi. Anyway, I started reading a book called Moving Zen – One Man’s Journey to the Heart of Karate by CW Nicol. There is a passage in his book where he awoke from a deep sleep. The building that he was staying in Japan was shuddering, screens were rattling, and the floor beneath him was moving. At first he thought it was an earthquake. He got out of bed, and went downstairs and a bunch of Karatekas (including Donn Draegar, a famous Karateka) were watching a teacher of tai chi chuan punch the pillars of the house, his fist only moving a few inches at a time. All of them could not believe the deceptive power coming from this tai chi master (Mr. Wong). Mr. Wong could also withstand any blows to his body (except to the face). Mr. Wong was about 250 pounds and fifty years old. Several Karateka tried punching Mr. Wong’s stomach only to hurt their wrist. He also sent flying with a single push several Karateka all lined up in a row (all together weighed about 800 pounds). Nicole asked his chief karate instructor sensei Nakayama (a very famous Karate teacher) if he thought karate was the best martial art. Nakayama studied several martial arts and also studied in China for several years. He said yes. But Nicole when Nicole asked about tai chi chuan, Nakayama said “For human beings Karate is the best way. But there are some men who are superhuman, and perhaps there are a few Tai Chi sensei are just that.”

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
I thought this was pretty cool so I figured that I would share it with everyone. To get a better understanding of Tai Chi martial applications, I took up Shotokan Karate for several months.
You might as well be looking at golf, cause you won't get Taiji apps from karate.... Get a teacher!!!

Many of the applications (punches, kicks, blocks) in Shotokan are very similar to the forms in Tai Chi.
No, they're not. You have no idea what you're missing.

Nicole asked his chief karate instructor sensei Nakayama (a very famous Karate teacher) if he thought karate was the best martial art. Nakayama studied several martial arts and also studied in China for several years. He said yes. But Nicole when Nicole asked about tai chi chuan, Nakayama said “For human beings Karate is the best way. But there are some men who are superhuman, and perhaps there are a few Tai Chi sensei are just that.”
The difference between seemingly superhuman Taiji and run of the mill karate are training methods. Obviously, nobody gave the real beef to Nakayama.

[Empty Fist]

You might as well be looking at golf, cause you won't get Taiji apps from karate.... Get a teacher!!!

Have a teacher. I have been studying for about 3 years. Disagree. Karate is a good art to take up in order to understand basis strikes, kicks, and blocks. Karate was known as Chinese hands until Funakoshi changed it to mean empty hands. Also pick up a copy of Karate Jutsu by Gichin Funakoshi. Pictures are worth a thousand words.


No, they're not. You have no idea what you're missing.

See prior answer.

[Joseph_alb]

Hey Emptyfist are you sure it was Wong? coz 250 pounds sounds more of a Wang to me. Wang Shu Chin was famous for withstanding blows to his belly, and i think Don Draegar met him.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
Have a teacher. I have been studying for about 3 years. Disagree. Karate is a good art to take up in order to understand basis strikes, kicks, and blocks.
Yes, well Taiji goes quite a bit further than the crash 'n bash of karate... You will never decipher the application for say, single whip using karate. And that's just one little tiny example. You also don't seem to grasp what RD said in another copy of this thread about the differences in power generation between Karate and Taiji. Outwardly a karate punch may LOOK similar to a Taiji punch, but the body mechanics are COMPLETELY different. Can your teacher show you the difference? Just wondering because it's obvious you have not seen, or felt the difference.

Karate was known as Chinese hands until Funakoshi changed it to mean empty hands. Also pick up a copy of Karate Jutsu by Gichin Funakoshi. Pictures are worth a thousand words.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't make Karate Taiji. If they're so similar, how come Nakayama could not replicate what the Taiji guys showed him? He wasn't given everything, not even close to half. And so he thinks you have to be a bit superhuman to do Taiji.

[Empty Fist]

Hey Emptyfist are you sure it was Wong? coz 250 pounds sounds more of a Wang to me. Wang Shu Chin was famous for withstanding blows to his belly, and i think Don Draegar met him.

The book refers to Wong. Maybe the book is wrong:confused:

[Empty Fist]

Outwardly a karate punch may LOOK similar to a Taiji punch, but the body mechanics are COMPLETELY different. Can your teacher show you the difference? Just wondering because it's obvious you have not seen, or felt the difference.

I know what I’m talking about and felt both (on the receiving end). Totally disagree with you. Body mechanics are the same when it comes to a punch. Take a few karate lessons from a good instructor and you’ll know what I’m talking about.


Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't make Karate Taiji. If they're so similar, how come Nakayama could not replicate what the Taiji guys showed him? He wasn't given everything, not even close to half. And so he thinks you have to be a bit superhuman to do Taiji.

Maybe...... it takes a lot longer to master Taiji compared to karate.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
I know what I’m talking about
Sorry, you don't.

and felt both (on the receiving end). Totally disagree with you. Body mechanics are the same when it comes to a punch.
You are going to find that everybody and anybody who has had decent instruction in Taiji are going to disagree with your assessment. It seems to me whoever is showing you Taiji, sux at it. Because if you'd seen the real thing, there would be no question in your mind that the mechanics behind a Karate punch are completely different than that of a Taiji punch. Karate does not have concepts like the seven stars, rooting, PENG, opening/closing the gua, expansion/contraction of intercostal muscles, coiling, drilling, and one final thing that is absolutely alien to Karate- silk reeling. None of those elements are in Karate, but they are the very fabric of Taiji.

Are you still going to try and tell me they're the same?


Take a few karate lessons from a good instructor and you’ll know what I’m talking about.
I've been hit by many- and not one of them came close to even two-year Xingyi students' punches.


it takes a lot longer to master Taiji compared to karate.
Go ahead and dine at McD's, I prefer steakhouses.

[Vash]

Originally posted by QuaiJohnCain
Karate does not have concepts like . . . rooting, PENG, opening/closing the gua, expansion/contraction of intercostal muscles, coiling, drilling . . .

I'd generally put an "lol" or somesuch here, but I think a ":rolleyes: " or ";) " will suffice.

Now, admittedly, these things tend to be self-discovered as opposed instructed due to lack of verbal communication in the earlier development and cross-cultural transmission of karate. But, I assure you, they are there.

There's bunches of articles relating to Chin ku chi over in the Ultimate OMA Thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28033&pagenumber=3), you might check those out.

As for "silk reeling," I've not experienced, nor seen this. Of course, my exposure to Tai Chi is rather limited. But, again, many of the "higher level" concepts of CMA are present in OMA, but their transmission in curriculum is sadly lacking.

[Empty Fist]

Sorry, you don't.
And you are qualified to tell me that I’m not????? LOL. Thanks for the laugh.


It seems to me whoever is showing you Taiji, sux at it. Because if you'd seen the real thing, there would be no question in your mind that the mechanics behind a Karate punch are completely different than that of a Taiji punch

My instructor has studied under William CC Chen for the past 20 years. That name speaks for itself. You need to get better instruction if you can’t tell the similarities between a karate punch and a Taiji punch.


Karate does not have concepts like the seven stars, rooting, PENG, opening/closing the gua, expansion/contraction of intercostal muscles, coiling, drilling,.

They are all there. Also without root no one can execute a punch.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Don't want to take sides in this but I'm sorry but a Karate punch and a Taiji punch differ considerably. Wang Shu Jin looked down on Karate so much, not that I am saying that one should, because he said it DIDN'T utilize qi, Jin or internal methods, and that was from the era in the 50's when he went out to Japan and met the contemporary Masters on their own turf and totally trounced them with his Taiji.
If their art back then still contained all the concepts that have been mentioned why did he say that they didn't when his sensitivity could easily recognise that thier art was in no way internal?

[Empty Fist]

All I'm saying is the body mechanics are similar in some techniques expecially a punch. I do agree the execution of a punch is quite different. Digging deeper, Karate or external arts would use hard jin where as internal arts use soft jin. All I wanted to do is understand Karate basics and how to apply the basics in Karate using Taiji principles.

[CaptinPickAxe]

you have apples and oranges...but it doesn't mean you have fruit salad. Theres so much missing. Qi cultivation. Silk reeling. The Yin Yang concepts. Breathing correctly. So much. Its like looking at a painting but only in black and white. Taiji is seriously lacking with out cultivation of qi, and you MUST have an experienced Taiji shifu to guide you.

[gazza99]

RE: "Body mechanics are the same when it comes to a punch. Take a few karate lessons from a good instructor and you’ll know what I’m talking about. "

I have trained with Karate practioners that by comparison to the general karate public I consider *good*. One of my best friends was also a Black belt in Shotokan, and Ive touched hands with at least a dozen Karate instructors with 20+ years exp.

But being a Taijiquan teacher, and having had to experience re-teaching multiple Karate black belts and instructors punching and mechanics, I have to disagree with the above statement completely. There are so many mechanical differences, I really dont have time to lay it out. But in a nut-shell it can be summed up in a few words....whole body power.......sung.....jing....


Gary R

[Repulsive Monkey]

Absolutely, the whole plethora of body cultivation, in relaxing the upper cavities and freeing them of tense strength, hlding the body tense anyway, circulating qi, cultivating qi, projecting qi, the whole area of Ching, Qi and Shen, etc.

And whats this rubbish about Neijia only using the soft Jin's and Karate the hard one's ?? In Neijia all Jin's are available.

I think the over-riding issue mentioned here from the start was that you can't learn Taiji by studying Karate, that much is total fact.

[Empty Fist]

And whats this rubbish about Neijia only using the soft Jin's and Karate the hard one's ?? In Neijia all Jin's are available.

I agree. Let me restate that taiji emphasizes soft jin vs hard jin.

I think the over-riding issue mentioned here from the start was that you can't learn Taiji by studying Karate, that much is total fact.

I never said one can study karate in order to learn taiji. What I did say is that you can study karate to get a better understanding of kicks, punches, and blocks and apply them to taiji (using taiji princiapals).

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
[B]
And you are qualified to tell me that I’m not????? LOL. Thanks for the laugh.
Sir, you are qualifiying yourself to be discounted by your statements.

My instructor has studied under William CC Chen for the past 20 years. That name speaks for itself.
20 years and he can't show you the difference? I hope his name does not speak for William CC Chen...

You need to get better instruction if you can’t tell the similarities between a karate punch and a Taiji punch.
Heh. I have no doubts about my instruction, guy. You are barking up the wrong tree, as the consensus is against you.

They are all there. Also without root no one can execute a punch.
Re-read Repulsive Monkeys comments on Wang Shu Jin. Nobody in the Karate world used that term until he came along.

[backbreaker]

Originally posted by QuaiJohnCain

You will never decipher the application for say, single whip using karate.


I can't say for sure, but this sounds correct. It's hard enough to get the applications doing Taiji



He wasn't given everything, not even close to half. And so he thinks you have to be a bit superhuman to do Taiji.


LOL, this may show a little bit that Taiji and Karate can outwardly look similar. My take on it is that they seem related , the footwork is similar, backfist are used similarly( with the other hand touching the crease of the elbow) and some techniques and sequences are very similar. The big anomaly to me is silk reeling, which seems unique to Taijiquan and Daoist qigong, but I really don't know, silk reeling could be shaolin. You cannot see the internal, it seems like you did nothing but the opponent goes running out. I think Taiji is different but related. Karate might be as related( or more maybe) to Taiji externally, as the other IMA's are internally. I don't worry to much about words like rooting and such, they're important for learning yourself, but on a forum I just think it comes down to the internal

[Empty Fist]

Originally posted by QuaiJohnCain


20 years and he can't show you the difference? I hope his name does not speak for William CC Chen...




Actually William CC Chen is known for applying taiji principals with boxing, karate, and mui tai etc. He is very open minded to other martial arts since there are some (I stress some) similarities. If I’m not mistaken, his son Max has won numerous medals in boxing and San Shou. His daughter Tiffany is also well respected.

[Repulsive Monkey]

"I never said one can study karate in order to learn taiji. What I did say is that you can study karate to get a better understanding of kicks, punches, and blocks and apply them to taiji (using taiji princiapals)."

You've just repeated yourself here and contradicted yourself. You're saying that you can learn Karate and take your Karate and apply your Karate understanding to Taiji. Is it that you wish to internalise your Karate? If so don't bother to my knowledge no one has ever really successfully created an internal Karate, becuase when you think that learning a punch in Taiji is the same as learning a punch in Karate, the one you learnt in Karate will have to be re-learned all over again from the beginning. You might aswell learn Taiji on it's own. It would prove most difficult if in fact impossible to intermalise Karate by the very nature that it requires the use of Li and not Qi which is it's direct opposite. Let's say that you have complete Taiji principles fitted into the Karate shapes of their postures, if successful you will no longer have Karate. It will be a mutant cross-breed (and not necessarily a successful one!) of Internal ideas from Taiji and external shapes from Karate.

Fact is is that Wiiliam C.C. Chen's son Max is not famed for his Taiji as he prefers western boxing and never cam enear his father in his internal studies and by all accounts from what I heard is no real internalist. I cannot make a statement about his daughter.

[Brad]

Fact is is that Wiiliam C.C. Chen's son Max is not famed for his Taiji as he prefers western boxing and never cam enear his father in his internal studies and by all accounts from what I heard is no real internalist. I cannot make a statement about his daughter.
His daughter is very good at pushhands, and she's had some sucess in San Shou too.

[Brad]

Just curious, but how many people comenting on this thread actually know Karate?

[GroungJing]

I’ve had the opportunity to on two occasion to compare and contrast with a 2nd dan in Gojo Ryu and a 4th dan Koei Kan on the mechanics of an internal punch contrasted to an external punch.

From what I’ve experienced the external method is more mechanical nature. I would have to make a long-winded post to detail what I witnessed in their body mechanics. But, in short both used more upper body and no ground jin. They used their root just to get the power behind their hips and shoulders but it didn’t go beyond that.

[Vash]

Well, I've never really seen nor experienced a TJQ punch.

But, I've studied Isshinryu karate the last few years. I'd love to explain *****uchi, the method of power generation used by Isshinryu, but I'm horrible at that kind of thing.

Suffice it to say that one must push into the ground, let the energy twist upwards, and pop out your fist. A minimum of hip movement is necessary.

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Brad
Just curious, but how many people comenting on this thread actually know Karate?

Good question!

What is real Karate? Or what is real Quan Shu. For the record I don’t qualify as knowing much about Karatedo.

However, my favorite misconception that I see people buying hook line a sinker, is that in Okinaw, 400 years ago, people created a fist method that resembles exactly western style boxing with kicks.


:D

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Vash
Well, I've never really seen nor experienced a TJQ punch.

But, I've studied Isshinryu karate the last few years. I'd love to explain *****uchi, the method of power generation used by Isshinryu, but I'm horrible at that kind of thing.

Suffice it to say that one must push into the ground, let the energy twist upwards, and pop out your fist. A minimum of hip movement is necessary.

Vash

I have a friend who is very a very good fighter (pratices Isshinryu karate) He has a lot of power and uses a lot of internal principles.

The mechanics of an internal puch will vary differently depending on the school of thought. But on a whole they are different from what my friend does in Isshinryu...how much who can say?

However being different hardly means better.....all said and done if my friend ever hit me it would probably knock my block off. In Taijiquan it's up to me to stay soft on the edge of his bubble so that doesn't happen.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I earned a black-belt in Yoshukai late '72... Taiji punches are uniquely effective given the years of training necessary to execute them correctly.. Tiffany Chen is among the best of the best at push-hands AND Lei Tai.. aside from that, she is a kind and gracious Lady..

As for the "Power of Taiji".. those that haven't experienced it, can't imagine it.. Those that have experienced it, need no further evidence.. and, dialogue between the two is confined by the experiences of participants..

One major issue is the necessary investment of Time required to raise Taiji to the level of combat proficiency.. those unwilling to invest the time will usually rationalize their own preferences.. those that have invested the Time feel threatened by the possibility (not probabability) that other styles may have comparable skills for less investment..

We shoot at the same target.. if we stay focused on the target and not the other guy's aim, we are more likely to hit it....

Be well....

[Vash]

Holy Crapple! Two reasoned, sensible responses. I think hell just froze over.

[backbreaker]

Well, the Andy Hug spinning back low kick is an awesome move whoever you are. Andy Hug would **** you up. I know no karate at all, so don't have much to say other than I have never felt the power of karate

Actually, I wouldn't think being a karate master means you know anything about Taiji or vice versa. They seem different to me actually, but a good low spinning back kick to the leg is a good thing in any art. I shouldn't even be talking about what I don't know.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

For those that aren't aware.. a thread by this same name exists in the main Kung Fu Forum.. 13 pages and growing.. some excellent dialogue (some not, me included.. my passion for the subject sometimes compromises my good-sense)..

Be well..

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by delibandit
Taijiquan is the highest martial art there is, the top of the mountain. That's not meant to be a boastful statement or a put-down toward other arts. It certainly doesn't negate the effectiveness of other arts. A karate guy could certainly kick your ass. But, the principles of taijiquan make it superior to other arts. That being said, not all those who study TJQ will develop the level of skill necessary for self-defence or fighting.


Opinions vary on that. Ask a ba gua guy, or a xing I guy, or a lu he ba fa guy.

Hell, ask anyone who loves their chose art.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Actually its called the Supreme Pole and grand ultimate fist is a poor translation of it.

[scotty1]

Ask three practitioners of Taiji what 'taiji' means and they'll tell you three things, everyone swearing blind that they're right.

[Kaitain(UK)]

I have trained Wado-Ryu for 5 years now, and Yang style for 6 - with the same instructor, who in turn has trained with John Ding for about 8 years. There has been no problem in blending taiji into the karate - be clear it is a unidirectional of knowledge as there is nothing structural of benefit to take from karate into taiji (not a criticism of what there is - just an observation that it doesn't help taiji).

I train karate because I want to build strong external skill that I then internalise over time with taiji - this then improves my karate as well as my taiji. It also provides a different set of energies to train against using taiji principles - I fundamentally believe that once you train taiji, everything that you do has taiji within it. When I go through my kata, it is taiji that is driving it - so mechanically my punch is different to how the karateka do it. At the moment it probably isn't any harder, or faster, or 'better' in any measurable way. It just feels right for me. With time I may develop the sort of power that John or Ip generate - but that is worlds away from where I am at the moment.

Some great taiji masters have trained the external arts prior to (or with) their internal system - what I have drawn from them is that they did indeed perceive taiji (or any internal art) as 'higher', but that it had to come from a firm structural basis and understanding. Willie Lim once described it to a seminar I was at something like this:
"Taiji is like sculpting - if you start with a small amount of material then you can end up with a very small and delicate yet beautifully formed statue. With the external arts you ensure that you have more than enough material to create a much larger yet still perfectly formed statue". I'm probably doing him no credit with that precis but I drew a lot from his words. I drew even more from his skill and delicacy which I found fascinating. Seeing him this Friday actually so I'm very enthused :)

Application
The Karate I train (dunno about other styles) does a lot of work with application of kata, as well as boxing drills, fixed pairs work, locking etc. _All_ of which gives me useful information to take and apply within my taiji. If I go to an Escrima class I find parallels in movement and strategy that strengthen my taiji.

There is a fixed pairs piece in Karate where you basically make a high block to a punch at head height. A lot of the karate guys just bang their arm up and smash you out of the way, some of the others though are much softer and stick to your attack, guiding away with delicacy. They call this "rice hand" - stickiness. In turn I train my sticking ability in this pairs work - it provides a forum where I get a lot of external energy to practice with. In a taiji class everyone tries not to provide that energy because they are striving for something different. If someone tries to smack me in the mouth at a club, they aren't likely to be using internal energy. Ergo, it's quite useful to train against different energy...

By all means take your own path of purity where you only learn within one system - I am hopeful that it will bear fruit for you. What purpose is there in dismissing other arts that you have no experience of? What purpose is there in basing your assessments of other arts on the writings of a master? He might have been to a bad school, or he might have been so highly trained that he felt there was no value elsewhere. Are you that highly trained? Can you discount other sources of experience and knowledge? How many masters have historically trained completely alone, with no recourse to looking at other arts and testing themselves?

I guess I'm saying - before you swear to the superiority of your art, make sure it is your art that you are referring to, rather than that of your master.

Paul

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

Hmmmm.... My own perspective of Taiji is.. a set of principles, trained and illustrated by detailed choreography of various styles (loosely associated with Taoist philosophy).. the purpose of which is varied according to the intent of the student and the preference of the instructor (martial, health, meditative).. primary principles are proper body mechanics, use of various internal organic and energy systems (some elusive).. and, an abiding awareness of our relationship to our environment... aside from that, opinion and predjudice distorts my perspective..

Be well...

[Vash]

Now Wadoryu is an example of a karate that ISN'T Okinawan.

Just thought I'd point that out. :D

[ShaolinWood]

delibandit great post, and Kaitain(UK) aswell!
Both have some excelent poits!

I have also studied Karate (Funakushi) for about 6 years, then went over to Shaolin and some other family style gongfu.
Then later started with Chen Taijiquan and have devoted myself to this style 100% since.

I still train my external gongfu and I'm sure that this DOES give me a good foundation for training and application understanding. Although I often ignore some of the external characteristics to replace it with that which I've learned in taiji.

Although getting into the "softness" of taiji and understanding hardness through softness, the karate background is a bit of a negative.
My one gongfu brother studied Shotokan for 11 years and he still struggles to completely flow and relax.

Though I mentioned this I still think the time you take to "forget" the hardness of Karate is less than the time you take to understand martial arts and all the basics.

And yes, I do know that there are levels of Karate which also uses characteristics similar to taijiquan, but unfortunately this seems to be almost lost in MOST schools and survives mainly still in Japan...

[Vash]

*coughOkinawankarateownsalloverJapanesederivatives ofsuchcough*

Buncha dam, durdy Tai Chi playin' hippies.

Hsing I pwns jou!

:p

[Kaitain(UK)]

Maybe so Vash - but does yours? :)

[Vash]

iNDEED!

[backbreaker]

In xingyiquan they yell "YIIII"

In Taijiquan they yell " Ha!"

In karate they yell " Kiya!"

Interesting if nothing else. Also, I have not heard of xingyi fighting these days, only shuai chiao I hear is doing good, and there are afew Taiji fighters, I can think of one on this forum, but I know of no xinyi fighters.

[cerebus]

Anyone who's been in the North American Tang Shou Tao for more than a year has probably fought in at least one full-contact event. And where did you hear than Hsing-I people yell "Yiii"? We don't yell anything so far as I've ever seen. :confused:

[backbreaker]

In xinyiluihequan they yell "YIIII" in some moves. Obviously I am not familiar with every xingyi group, just saying what I have seen FWIW, and just because I hear alot of stuff like xingyi is effective for fighting, Taiji is for hippies. So it's not a rule

[8gates]

Ah.. a happy thread...

I almost started to ramble on and on..
but as usual I punched myself in the groin again..
and cut my happy statment down to a para' or 2. :D

I've been doing Shaolin Kempo for about 20+ years, and I can switch easily enough... from doing Shaolin Kempo to doing a Tai Chi movement then back to Shaolin Kempo again..
but to say "blending" two differn't styles together is kind of like saying " l@@k " a new MA ? isn't it? I don't know how to feel about that one....

I think external styles are good
to learn how to punch and kick ECT..
however Tai Chi is internal (in all ways) and is just plain differn't...
I think you can compare Karate punches to the way a Tai Chi Player punches ... but it's still not the same... if it was, I wouldn't have learned Shaolin Kempo.....

My 2 Cents

8 Gates

[Brad]

I think xinyiluihequan and xingyiquan are concidered different things :confused:

[cerebus]

Yup!

[backbreaker]

I don't think so, xinyiluhe people often just call it xingyi. I think it is the oldest xingyi style. Maybe you should ask your EF moderator guy about that one

[cerebus]

Actually they call it xinyi (no "g" in there) it's a whole different word in Chinese.

[backbreaker]

really, go figure

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It is so subtle, so simple.. that i missed it for 10 years.. but, 4 ounces does indeed deflect 1000 pounds.. The vast majority if Taiji applications are perceived incorrectly, most people assume that there will be a "fight".. that is unnecessary.. almost everything is evident in your opponent's feet, including the outward evidence of intent.. the inward evidence can be felt through touch.. The opponent's attack is a gift, it is all you need to uproot and unbalance them.. recall those times when you were off-balance, frozen between falling and not falling, every fiber of your body straining to regain your footing.. uproot your oponent, unbalance them to this point, (we usually over-do it and just push them into another posture) then.. they are simply at your mercy, frozen or wobbling in an attempt to stabilize themselves.. your actions at this point should reflect their intentions.. in friendly matches gently push.. for brutish aggressors a well intended lesson in negative reinforcement..

The power of Taiji is in its softness, its sensitivity to balance, in its willingness to yield and absorb.. Taiji's power is borrowed from the opponent and stored untill you can return it to them, with interest.. the more we explore unrefined "power", purely muscular strength the further we depart from the core of Taiji.. of course we can rationalize whatever we choose, but.. if we choose to train in internal Arts we should also respect its philosophy.. As i have seen in the last 4-5 years, there are people that can make this work at the highest level, and their common theme is "it is so simple and basic, we walk right by it".. perhaps, we simply have too narrow of a definition of "power", maybe the most powerful never have to use it.. and when they do it is so subtle we miss it..

Be well...

[8gates]

TaiChiBob:

The vast majority if Taiji applications are perceived incorrectly, most people assume that there will be a "fight".. that is unnecessary.. almost everything is evident in your opponent's feet, including the outward evidence of intent.. the inward evidence can be felt through touch.. The opponent's attack is a gift, it is all you need to uproot and unbalance them..

Your talking in general correct? If one was to uproot a attacker, the attacker would just get off the ground and come at you again... unless you followed up afterwars, be it another move.. or whatever.. you are talking in general terms, yes?

Be Well... John Spartan :D

8 Gates

[8gates]

TaiChiBob:

The vast majority if Taiji applications are perceived incorrectly, most people assume that there will be a "fight".. that is unnecessary.. almost everything is evident in your opponent's feet, including the outward evidence of intent.. the inward evidence can be felt through touch.. The opponent's attack is a gift, it is all you need to uproot and unbalance them..

Your talking in general correct? If one was to uproot a attacker, the attacker would just get off the ground and come at you again... unless you followed up afterwars, be it another move.. or whatever.. you are talking in general terms, yes?

Be Well... John Spartan :D

8 Gates

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I meant it both generally and specifically.. 4 or 5 years ago i would have thought of this concept in the same perspective as you.. but, i have been exposed to people that have proved me wrong.. they have handled extreme aggression blended with great external skills in an most soft and effective manner.. the single most consistent theme is "balance", they consistently remind me that we routinely over-react to aggression/force.. we respond with such technique and energy that it simply redirects our opponent into another mode of attack, just as you suggest..

Then, i see (and feel) them handle expert skills like they were handling a baby.. quick, gentle and unbelievably effective.. they simply deflect, uproot and shift the opponents balance only to that point where they are caught between falling and not falling, unable to move in any direction decisively.. then, their techniques are so effective on an almost immobilized opponent that it is kind of creepy..

Uprooting is usually taken too far, we should only interupt the opponents connection to the ground, shift their balance slightly, then apply the appropriate technique for the situation.. it works..

Be well...

[black and blue]

Hello TaiChiBob

Who are the people you have been exposed to? And, if you don't mind my asking, what is their history (art, time training, time teaching etc)?

Many thanks,

Duncan

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Mt exposure is relatively broad.. of particular note, though..

Senior students and now teachers of William C. C. Chen's lineage
Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming
Ms. Cui Lu Yi, Chen and QiGong Master
Wei Lun Huang
Wei Lun Choi
G'Master Chan Pui, my primary mentor of 12 +years
several unknown people of significant skill that refused to disclose their lineage, they said it was of no matter, evaluate the skill not its lineage.. before they had to go back to Taiwan, i was able to train with these guys 2-3 times a week for about 7 months and it was pure insight into the depth of Taiji potential (and they said that this was just "basic").. it was humbling, but educational..
A special note of thanks to Josh Waitzken and Tiffany Chen (WCC Chen's daughter) for their kind and gracious personalities, their openess and spirit of sharing.. good people doing good things..

My students and peers continually amaze me with their insights, its a great path we have chosen.. it is rich in culture, rich in the varied experiences and never ceases to offer potential for higher and higher growth..

Dr. Yang and a Master Wong of W.C.C. Chen's lineage are both adept at soft power, they are both so sensitive to balance and the subtle physical corrections we use to correct our balance that they sieze the opportunity even as we move through that point of minimum stability, that point occurs in each movement and is perceptable at high levels of sensitivity.. we are powerless if caught precisely at that instant.. the truly gifted will make it look so easy and effortless, yet so effective it's almost comical.. i have watched as well known full-contact fighters were handled like first-day novices.. that combined with feeling the control first-hand and then being able to approximate it at some rudimentary level myself has been an enlightening revelation that is guiding my current approach to Taiji.. I hope this answers your questions..

Be well...

[black and blue]

Thanks TCB

An interesting collection of people... you have been very fortunate to have met (and worked with) so many.

I recently switched from Wing Chun to Hsing-i, and am currently looking in to the opportunity to learn Taiji from one of Dr Yang Jwing-Ming's instructors here in Budapest, Hungary.

Loved Wing Chun - infatuated with the Internal Arts :)

Regards,

Duncan

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