The Power of Tai Chi Chuan

[Empty Fist]

I thought this was pretty cool so I figured that I would share it with everyone. To get a better understanding of Tai Chi martial applications, I took up Shotokan Karate for several months. Many of the applications (punches, kicks, blocks) in Shotokan are very similar to the forms in Tai Chi. Anyway, I started reading a book called Moving Zen – One Man’s Journey to the Heart of Karate by CW Nicol. There is a passage in his book where he awoke from a deep sleep. The building that he was staying in Japan was shuddering, screens were rattling, and the floor beneath him was moving. At first he thought it was an earthquake. He got out of bed, and went downstairs and a bunch of Karatekas (including Donn Draegar, a famous Karateka) were watching a teacher of tai chi chuan punch the pillars of the house, his fist only moving a few inches at a time. All of them could not believe the deceptive power coming from this tai chi master (Mr. Wong). Mr. Wong could also withstand any blows to his body (except to the face). Mr. Wong was about 250 pounds and fifty years old. Several Karateka tried punching Mr. Wong’s stomach only to hurt their wrist. He also sent flying with a single push several Karateka all lined up in a row (all together weighed about 800 pounds). Nicole asked his chief karate instructor sensei Nakayama (a very famous Karate teacher) if he thought karate was the best martial art. Nakayama studied several martial arts and also studied in China for several years. He said yes. But Nicole when Nicole asked about tai chi chuan, Nakayama said “For human beings Karate is the best way. But there are some men who are superhuman, and perhaps there are a few Tai Chi sensei are just that.”

[EarthDragon]

You said to get a better understanding of tai chi you took up shotokan? funakoshi's shotokan has nothing what so ever in common with tai chi chuan........... could you please explian this analogy, Im dying to hear this.

[Empty Fist]

I wanted to get a better understanding of striking, blocking, and kicks. Unfortunately, there are not many good schools around where I live as far as Tai Chi Chuan/Kung Fu is concerned. Took up Shotokan for several months to understand the basics (punches, kicks, blocks). Shotokan's roots come from China and are derived from various CMA (including Tai Chi Chuan). FYI, Karate was known as “Chinese hand” before they changed it to mean “empty hand”.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
You said to get a better understanding of tai chi you took up shotokan? funakoshi's shotokan has nothing what so ever in common with tai chi chuan........... could you please explian this analogy, Im dying to hear this.

principles are common across several arts, so it's possible. Im muay thai, for example, we train a technique that a tai chi guy refers to as borrowing...

[Vash]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
Shotokan's roots come from China and are derived from various CMA (including Tai Chi Chuan).

Kinda sorta. Shotokan is a . . . variation on Shorinryu, and Okinawan karate, which was influenced mainly by white crane, monk fist, and possibly five ancestors.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
I thought this was pretty cool so I figured that I would share it with everyone. To get a better understanding of Tai Chi martial applications, I took up Shotokan Karate for several months.
You might as well be looking at golf, cause you won't get Taiji apps from karate.... Get a teacher!!!

Many of the applications (punches, kicks, blocks) in Shotokan are very similar to the forms in Tai Chi.
No, they're not. You have no idea what you're missing.

Nicole asked his chief karate instructor sensei Nakayama (a very famous Karate teacher) if he thought karate was the best martial art. Nakayama studied several martial arts and also studied in China for several years. He said yes. But Nicole when Nicole asked about tai chi chuan, Nakayama said “For human beings Karate is the best way. But there are some men who are superhuman, and perhaps there are a few Tai Chi sensei are just that.”
The difference between seemingly superhuman Taiji and run of the mill karate are training methods. Obviously, nobody gave the real beef to Nakayama.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by SevenStar
principles are common across several arts, so it's possible. Im muay thai, for example, we train a technique that a tai chi guy refers to as borrowing...

principles- similar. movement- wildly different. technique- COMPLETLEY different.

not really the same thing.

[Tiger_Yin]

The very essence and basis of both arts are so incompatible Funakoshi took everything out of Karate thta was actualy harmful and dangerous to make Shotokan kind of like to make a sport for kids.

Taichi has nothing to do with this.. i dont even see HOW u can say it compares o_O

[CaptinPickAxe]

I'm shocked that someone would take karate to get a better grasp on Taijiquan. Think about it, Karate excersises ridgid, stiff attacks. Taijiquan is completly fluid. Karate for the most part is external, Taijiquan for the majority is internal (but there are Taiji instructors that teach the martial side too).

To compare the two is like apples and oranges.

[Vash]

When comparing anything to TCC, that thing is gonna appear stiff. But karate, when done properly, is neither rigid nor stiff.

There aren't any friggin straight lines in karate. Now it's all short arcs. Confuses the bejeebus outta me.

[CaptinPickAxe]

When comparing anything to TCC, that thing is gonna appear stiff

True.

Splashing Hands is fluid, though. Never stiff or rigid. The Small Cross form seems fluid like taiji ( a poor, underdeveloped taiji, but taiji none the less)

[Empty Fist]

A lot of posts and interesting answers. In my opinion, and people may disagree which is fine, Karate is a good art to understand basis strikes, kicks, and blocks. Karate was known as Chinese hands until Funakoshi changed it to mean empty hands. Also pick up a copy of Karate Jutsu by Gichin Funakoshi if you ever get a chance. Pictures are worth a thousand words. As far as softness is concerned, Shotokan emphasizes relaxation to execute techniques. Only at the final moment of impact, the body is supposed to tense. Now if we talk about yielding, (a major principal of Tai Chi) then I agree. Karate does not really emphasize yielding. My only purpose of taking Karate for a short period of time was to get a better understanding of punches, kicks, and blocks. And let me burst the myth about karate punches lacking power, the body mechanics of a karate punch are the same as a tai chi punch.

Here is an example what I learned when I took karate. Karate’s rising block is exactly like fair lady works the shuttle. However, before I took karate, I had no clue how to execute this technique for self defense. I found out that the block, when done properly would be used to strike/block an opponent’s funny bone, thus numbing an opponent’s arm. Interesting stuff.

[Vash]

Please, do not get Shotokan and classical karate confused.

Oh, and "empty hand" had been used interchangedly with "Tang hand/China hand" previous to Funakoshi's popularization of the spelling.

[Royal Dragon]

the body mechanics of a karate punch are the same as a tai chi punch.

Reply]
Um sorry, but no. In Taiji Quan, the power is driven by an expansion/Contraction of the torso. It radiates out from the center in all directions.

In Karate, the leg drives the hip, which drives the torso. The power transfers from the hip, through the torso with NO addtion in useable power to the shoulders (Strong abs help in stability here), and finnally to the arms, which add power of thier own.

It's a COMPLETELY different method of power generation all together. One external by deffinition, the other purely internal.

You need a real teacher my freind.

I am like the video King, but I still go to real teahcers for corrections, basics and principals. It's the only way. You can't go to Karate, to learn about Taiji Quan. That's like going to a long distance runner to learn about swimming.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
I wanted to get a better understanding of striking, blocking, and kicks. Unfortunately, there are not many good schools around where I live as far as Tai Chi Chuan/Kung Fu is concerned. Took up Shotokan for several months to understand the basics (punches, kicks, blocks). Shotokan's roots come from China and are derived from various CMA (including Tai Chi Chuan). FYI, Karate was known as “Chinese hand” before they changed it to mean “empty hand”.

I have been training Yang style Taijiquan for a while now, and I disagree with what you are saying. I have never taken Shotokan karate, but I have a little over 3 years of Okinawan Ryukyu Kempo. There are internal and external aspects of the karate I took, and overall its really a great system. However when you stated about learning how to punch and kick and block to me, IMHO taiji does not concern itself which such ideas. Punching and kicking is not a major concern for taiji.

From what I have learned, taiji is more about controlling the yin and yang energies, not punching, kicking, blocking. In taiji you find many things you will not see in other systems. Things like plucking, pushing, warding off, and rolling back are somewhat unique to taiji. I am not saying taiji is the only system out there that does that, I am just saying its one that sticks out in my mind when thinking about that kind of stuff.



Um sorry, but no. In Taiji Quan, the power is driven by an expansion/Contraction of the torso. It radiates out from the center in all directions.


True, but taiji also generates power from the ground up, using the legs as well. In taiji you use your whole body as one unit not just the torso. The dan tien is just one of your options.


In Karate, the leg drives the hip, which drives the torso. The power transfers from the hip, through the torso with NO addtion in useable power to the shoulders (Strong abs help in stability here), and finnally to the arms, which add power of thier own.

Also not true. There are many forms of karate. The one style of karate I studied for 3 years also used the whole body and had internal aspects to it. It was a very comprehensive system with grappling and pressure point fighting as well. A lot of karate came from white crane kung fu, so there are going to be similarities here and there. Not to mention every master has changed the styles here and there to improve things along the way from hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

The thing about taiji, is that everything can be considered taiji. In taiji a step is considered a kick. Any body movement can be a strike, a ward off, a roll off, a push back, etc. Punching kicking and blocking are basic ideas in taiji, controlling the yin and yang energies it what one ultimately learns. If someone punches you let them, swallow it, side step it and split their energy, ward it off, or strike them first are all taiji principle answers in combat (not to metnion the countless others).

Do not limit yourself to the movements of forms and katas. All martial arts should be fluid, with smooth movements, not rigid predetermined strikes from forms or katas. There are many reasons for the movements in your form work, otherwise they would not be there. A taiji rule of thumb (not an exact number) says every move in the form has at least 40 applications. So you can see from that idea taiji does not limit itself to punching, kicking, and blocking.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

Um sorry, but no. In Taiji Quan, the power is driven by an expansion/Contraction of the torso. It radiates out from the center in all directions.

In Karate, the leg drives the hip, which drives the torso. The power transfers from the hip, through the torso with NO addtion in useable power to the shoulders (Strong abs help in stability here), and finnally to the arms, which add power of thier own.

It's a COMPLETELY different method of power generation all together. One external by deffinition, the other purely internal.


"Boxing is rooted in the foot, launched by the legs, directed by the waist, urged by the shoulder and expressed through the fingers."

-The Taiji Classics

You might, of course, choose to take Royal Dragon's word over the text compiled from the sayings of past Taiji masters, which would of course be your prerogative.

[Vash]

Didn't RD once say that the Taiji Classics are wrong?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27412&perpage=15&highlight=the%20classics%20are%20wrong&pagenumber=6

My bad,


Originally Posted by Royal Dragon
Except Taiji is suposed to start at the Dantien, and radiate out, not at the feet and move up.

The Classics are lying.

:rolleyes:

[SPJ]

You may read and study Tai Ji for many many years. You would still find new insights all the time.

Some basic principles:

Use a small force to contact and listen to a bigger force. When you sense the change of directions of the opponent's Jin, you follow and add to it. You guide the opponent's Jin and empty it out. (Tin Jin, Don Jin, Yin Jin Luo Kong)

1) Contact and stick (Zhang, Nei)
2) Follow (Suei)

No opposing and no losing contact. (Bu Dew Bu Ding)

The opponent starts a punch, you move and contact his forearm. You follow his forearm. You shadow him.

So you are neutralizing and counterattacking the opponent at the same time.

You borrow the opponent's force and use it against him. (Jie Li Yong Li)

So blocking in long boxing evolves into Zhang, Nei, Suei. The opponent may not use the hand for anything else. He moves forward, you pull. He moves back, you push.

You do not oppose the opponent's force like blocking upward, downward or laterally. You use a spiral action to yield, to join and to redirect his force. Like a surfer get a free ride on a surging wave.

[Christopher M]

Although the elitist remarks are rather silly (if expected), I'd agree with one thing: you shouldn't take Shotokan to become a better Taijiquan stylist - you should take it to become a better fighter and/or because you enjoy it. These are presumably the same reasons you're taking Taijiquan - neither art needs to stand on the other's shoulders.

With regard to Taijiquan - the fundamental point of training is a journey of self/martial exploration. In any martial art, alot of the important lessons come from recognizing that you need something, and then learning to fill that need. If anything, this is even more true in Taijiquan than in other arts. Certainly, essentially no art explicitly covers the entire spectrum of martial possibilities - so you should probably not presume to find, for example, groundfighting solutions in your Taijiquan training. But certainly, for striking and striking defense, solutions are not only present in Taijiquan training - finding them is a necessary part of achieving Taijiquan skill. Of course, if for some reason you do not have a teacher and/or partners to help you with this, it will be difficult; but that just means it is difficult, not that it shouldn't be done.

[David Jamieson]

peh!

everyone at the bottom of the mountain argues about the best way up it.

everyone at the top of the mountain see the incredible beauty and realizes how small everything else really is.

just get climbing!

[Empty Fist]

everyone at the bottom of the mountain argues about the best way up it. everyone at the top of the mountain see the incredible beauty and realizes how small everything else really is. just get climbing!

Well said:)

[Empty Fist]

I have been training Yang style Taijiquan for a while now, and I disagree with what you are saying. I have never taken Shotokan karate, but I have a little over 3 years of Okinawan Ryukyu Kempo. There are internal and external aspects of the karate I took, and overall its really a great system. However when you stated about learning how to punch and kick and block to me, IMHO taiji does not concern itself which such ideas. Punching and kicking is not a major concern for taiji.

I hear what you are saying, but the forms include aspects of punching,kicking, and blocking and are part of Taiji. They can't be ignored. ;)

[Sam Wiley]

A friend of mine who teaches Uechi Ryu karate once looked at my performance of Sanchin kata and, after correcting me on a few mistakes, told me that one thing I had down which some karate students find difficult in achieving was my level of relaxation. So for those who believe that karate is only stiff and inflexible, that doesn't apply to all styles. In fact, I would say that doesn't apply to any style of traditional karate because things should change with advancement in skill, such as a greater level of relaxation being attained.

With that said, there are still vast differences between most styles of karate and Taijiquan. for instance, the practice of blocking.... I was told by my teacher that there are not actual blocks in Taiji, and that things that look like blocks have other meanings, and that things which I personally might call blocks for the sake of simplicity are actually strikes, neutralizations, or redirections. Somewhere I have a videotape of karate teachers who have been experimenting with vital point striking demonstrating other possible applications for movements used only to block in many schools, which somewhat resemble the neutralization/redirection followed by a strike (or whatever) seen in Taiji.

So I suppose it is possible to learn something about Taiji by learning karate and vice versa, provided you learn from the right person. However, I would suggest that you keep an open mind and still take everything with a grain of salt because if it is your intent to enhace your Taiji practice with karate, you may only be learning base level principles from karate which violate Taiji principles, and that will hinder your progress.

Anyway, eventually you will end up where you need to be. Good luck on your journey.

[Mr Punch]

Christopher M, SPJ and Father Dog are gently passing the correct between them in a large ball of chi, and then bursting its bubble with a strong chudan uchi. Kung Lek has reached the mid-life crisis of the wrong end of his stick, and has concluded he has only one more ridge to go before it's all downhill on a sledge of mixed metaphors.

I would basically say that anyone who thinks karate is stiff has never met higher level karateka.

Also in karate, I was taught a block should affect the opponent's tanden (every block is a strike), not just attack the limb. I was also told that everything should come from a relaxed tanden, to generate an explosion of ki (although in Japanese this is not mystical, it just sounds like a normal kiai, which you could equally translate as an explosive expellation of breath) and to generate some torque in your hips.

Of course, this has never been explained to me without reference to stepping, rooting, and basically the energy coming up from the floor...

and the rest is nitpicking... :D

taichi = ghay karate
karate = meathead taichi!
:D

Blocking in karate can be a strong move to uproot/disrupt posture or it can be a receiving revolving door motion, depending on the position. However this is the biggest diff between the Chinese and the Japanese I reckon... the door doesn't revolve so far, and the emphasis is on swinging the door.

[David Jamieson]

again, I say peh!

all else aside, just do it. I've done karate and i've done tai chi, sure they're different, they're different names aren't they?

but who gives a cr@p?

Just do something, and don't sweat all the minutia. It really is NOT important and it will trap you and prevent you from learning what is at hand.

you will toss it around and around and around and in all the time you waste, for cripes sake you could've learned a new language!!!

so, pick and art and study it, keep it and study other things too, move around, feel as much as you can, eventually you can make your art yours and then it isn't anything but you.

mid life crisis
:rolleyes:

peh! LOL

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by QuaiJohnCain


principles- similar. movement- wildly different. technique- COMPLETLEY different.

not really the same thing.

I agree. Notice he said he took it to help him understand his shotokan. Ut may have taken seeing the principles in his taiji class for him to recognicze them in shotokan. He also referred to the applications of his techniques, which stem from the the principle.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
I'm shocked that someone would take karate to get a better grasp on Taijiquan. Think about it, Karate excersises ridgid, stiff attacks. Taijiquan is completly fluid. Karate for the most part is external, Taijiquan for the majority is internal (but there are Taiji instructors that teach the martial side too).

To compare the two is like apples and oranges.

Good karate is quite fluid. One of the most fluid guys I've ever seen was a friend of mine that I trained under - he grew up training karate in kumamoto, japan.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
And let me burst the myth about karate punches lacking power, the body mechanics of a karate punch are the same as a tai chi punch.


Who told you that lie? Karate is actually known for it's powerful reverse punch.

[SPJ]

True. The reverse punch is powerful. Because it is a balance move. If you grab the opponent's arm with your left hand and punch him with your right hand. Your moving back with the left hand is balanced out by your moving foreward right hand. This is widely used in all Wushu.

Gomeinasai! Tsumimasen! Hondo ni?

Your hard blocking and hard punching arms may be used against you to be uprooted yourself.

In fact, if you only knows how to block and punch, and not knowing how to grab, you are at disadvantage.

Learn any Wushu, such as Wing Chun, Praying Manits, Tong Bei. Your blocking arm and your punching arm will be both grabbed and restrained and you will be punched when both of your hands are restrained.

Domoarigato gosaima****a. Sensei's

[Empty Fist]

Who told you that lie? Karate is actually known for it's powerful reverse punch.


A former Tai Chi instructor demonstrated the differences between a karate punch and a tai chi punch. However, the karate punch he demonstrated was a straight punch and not a reverse punch. Reverse punch has much more power than a reverse punch. Also, Bruce Lee mentioned in an interview the differences between a karate punch and a kung fu punch. I believe Robert Smith's book on Chinese Boxing also mentions the differences. Based on my experience I don't agree. Reverse karate punch is a very powerful punch.

I would have liked to have taken karate for a longer period of time. Katas are beautiful (very fluid) when demonstrated by a very experienced karateka. Unfortunately, I started to have problems with my right hip (pain and discomfort). Never had this problem before. Decided at this point in my life it wasn't worth the risk. I'm 36 years old. Anyway, I am very grateful for the knowledge I obtained in a very short period of time.

[SPJ]

Some history of Wushu in China:

Southern Shaolin Tiger Form->Tang Sou->Okinawa te-> Karate.
400 years ago, Okinawa was Chinese isles.

Blocking -> wrestling 2200 years ago
-> Tai Ji Push Hands (1100 to 400 years ago)
-> Wing Chun Sticking Hand (Chi Sao, ?-400 years ago)
-> Praying Mantis Hand (1000 to 300 years ago)
-> Nan Quan building bridge (forearm, Da Chiao, 400 years ago)
-> Tiao, Lan, Gua, Luo etc in Tong Bei 2500 years ago summarized by General Han in Warring States.
on and on.

Fist punch-> back of hand
-> Palm strike (6000 years ago) -> Palm push (Shaolin Iron Palms 2000 years ago ?) and pull (Shaolin Eagle Fist, Iron Claws 2200 years ago)
-> Tai Ji whole body punch
-> Ba Ji strikes from 8 zones (1100 years ago ?)

On and On

[Vash]

Okinawan karate owns all over Japanese karate!

:eek: :cool:

[Mr Punch]

I agree Vash, but I would hate to attempt to introduce relevance at this point.
:p

[Vash]

Yeah, that'd be a travesty. :D

[Royal Dragon]

Yup, the classics are wrong.

[anton]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
Reverse punch has much more power than a reverse punch.

Wow thats deep man ... *toke*

[CaptinPickAxe]

Good karate is quite fluid. One of the most fluid guys I've ever seen was a friend of mine that I trained under - he grew up training karate in kumamoto, japan.

I guess I've never seen true karate or just seen sh!te practioners. All the karate sport the different names around here, but are all rigid and uneffective. I was 7 last time I took Karate (kenpo I belive) and thought it was crap. Recently, I've been checking out schools around town (just to see what I'm up against) and I'm embarrassed by the instructors lack of skill, knowledge, and inability to correct.

[Banjos_dad]

I studied Okinawan Shorin-ryu for a few years. By outward appearance the difference in form between taichi chuan and karate seems almost polar.
When I switched to shaolin kf my reverse punch, side kick and straight back kick got attention for the power they developed. But it took that much longer to learn twisting/untwisting moves in kung fu like the wing kick & back spinning kicks.
Some of the karate forms contain applications that are reminiscent of tai chi's joint locks & throws. If you have a well qualified instructor.
Now as a kung fu student I think of it as having developed side kicking kung, reverse punching kung, etc. that carries over into kung fu practice.
I think it's good that he cross trained in tai chi and karate. When I was in between Shorin-ryu and where I am now, the karate background helped me separate the grain from the chaff when I was looking for a CMA teacher. In some schools it's all tai chi and no chuan. It took a couple of visits to different schools to find a CMA school I felt like I could really benefit from. No offense but yeah in MA like everything else you owe it to yourself to shop around.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Yup, the classics are wrong.

My guess would be that it's you, not the classics, that's wrong...What qualification do you have to make such a statement, and can you prove that they are wrong?

[Empty Fist]

Reverse punch has much more power than a reverse punch.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Sorry for the typo. I meant a reverse punch has a lot more power than a straight punch. Thanks for the catch.

[Royal Dragon]

SevenStar,

:rolleyes:

[Vash]

;)

[CaptinPickAxe]

Just thought I'd post this:

Dr.Yang's Taijiquan with Jing (http://www.ymaaschool.com/media/audiovideo/audvideos.php)

Said video is 2nd to last.

[Royal Dragon]

Thanks Vash, at least someone understands rediculous sarcasim
:)

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by SevenStar


My guess would be that it's you, not the classics, that's wrong...What qualification do you have to make such a statement, and can you prove that they are wrong?

Thats real debateable considering which lineage of taiji you study. I know for a fact that even weight distribution mentioned in the classics is wrong in my lineage of taiji. We never double weight ourselves. So there may infact be a difference in his lineage. However, there are so many taiji lineages out there and I only really know my lineage so I cannot say if in his families view the classics are wrong. In my families view he is wrong and the classics are right.

Another thing about karate. It is a good combat system. Look at all the samurai and how good of warriors they were. Their empty handed fighting techniques is karate. There really are no superior styles or systems out there, only superior fighters. I think that some systems are a bit better for combat than others, but ultimately it doesn't matter. If what you train works, then it works and the only way to truly combat test it, is to be in combat.

Now taking karate may have opened your mind and heart to new applications of taiji technique and philosophy, but taking karate to make your taiji better is counter productive. Practice more taiji to make your taiji better. It all comes down to the individual and the sifu. I am so fortuante that my sifu always shows us many different applications of the form work in very different dynamic ways. So it seems that training karate just put a new perspective on your taiji training. That is awesome, and I encourage you to cross train more. Cross training supplement systems and blending them with your main system of martial arts is a very good way to see how valuable your main system of MA really is.

[Royal Dragon]

What about viewing Karate videos for insite, and then seeing how you can apply Taiji principals to those applications?

[SPJ]

I was trained with Shaolin Classics (Northern Long Boxing, Southern Tiger and Crane, 6 combinations, basic 5 ancesters, etc). Southern Linages all have their followers in Southern China, Taiwan and Chinese thruout South East Asia. Altogether are called Nan Quan.

Nan Quan is still mostly block and punch. You rely on your own force to deliver a kinetic energy to a soft spot and inflict injury to the opponent.

In great contrast (almost day and nite), Tai Ji Quan was invented or summarized all good ideas of Wushu in Ming Dynasty by Chen Wang Tin.

I was trained with Chen's styles 25 years ago in Taiwan. Yang Lu Zhang learned the Chen's and moved to Peking and taught the royalties and civilians Yang's style. This the most popular one. I also learned Wu's, Sun's but my main training is still Chen's.

Jin in Tai Ji. 90% position, 9% opponent's, 1% from you. You use a small force to defeat the opponent's bigger force. Your Jin is mostly Zhang Shi Jin (spiral Jin).

In short, over 20 years of study both Nan Quan and Tai Ji. I do see greatly dissimilarities. I could be wrong. However, they both are originated from long boxing. There are also punching and kicking in Tai Ji. But mostly the idea is to borrow the opponent's force and use it against him.

Best regards to all students and teachers out there!

[Empty Fist]

Now taking karate may have opened your mind and heart to new applications of taiji technique and philosophy, but taking karate to make your taiji better is counter productive. Practice more taiji to make your taiji better. It all comes down to the individual and the sifu. I am so fortuante that my sifu always shows us many different applications of the form work in very different dynamic ways. So it seems that training karate just put a new perspective on your taiji training. That is awesome, and I encourage you to cross train more. Cross training supplement systems and blending them with your main system of martial arts is a very good way to see how valuable your main system of MA really is.

That's how I approached it with an open mind. I just wanted a better understanding of the basics when it came to strikes, blocks, and kicks which are a small part of taiji. We learn some applications in class and in push hands in class but it is different (controlling, yielding, sticking, etc). In a self defense situation, sticking may not be an option. There are some similarities between most martial arts. Each one if different an unique. I believe you can cross train to get a better understanding of your art. I don't think cross training in karate can be counter productive in the short-term (long-term probably). That's just my opinion.

[Gangsterfist]

I meant only counter-productive at making you better at taiji. Karate training overall will always be an asset to you as a martial artist, but it will not make your taiji better. Practicing your taiji will make you better at taiji, was the point I was trying to get across.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Exactly how on earth will Karate improve your Taiji.
The similarities are quite minimal. By the way where do ever have blocks in Taiji? If someone is teaching you to block in Taiji then I would doubt their Taiji. Taiji doesn't block if it it did then listening, sticking, following/yielding would all be redundant aspects.

You don't block in Taiji, you don't use force against force.
If you want Karate train Karate if you want Taiji train Taiji.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

If you go fishing, do you take only one lure or only one bait?.. if you do do you are probably looking only to catch one type of fish.. in martial arts you may have a favorite style but there is wisdom in knowing other styles.. i am not so naive as to assert that any one system is superior to all others, but.. i believe that Taiji offes me the most comprehensive benefit to the path i have chosen (inclusive of self-defense).. yet, i also see the wisdom of knowing other options as well.. relying on a single system is contrary to good tactical wisdom, redundancy is favored by most tactical stragegists and makes sense in the martial arts as well.. considering Taiji to be "Yin" (internal) and Kung Fu to be "Yang" (external), the words of Lao Tzu make sense.. "know the Yang but keep to the Yin".. for me it is a matter of balance... Sure, there will be the inevitable arguements of semantics.. Yin/Yang, internal/external.. but, i think we all know the difference...

Be well...

[Empty Fist]

Exactly how on earth will Karate improve your Taiji.
In order to understand the mechanics of kicks, blocks, and punching better. Keeping in mind that the execution of this techniques is quite different in taiji compared to karate.


The similarities are quite minimal.
Agree but there are similarities.

By the way where do ever have blocks in Taiji?
Fair Lady at the Shuttle, Step up to the seven starts of the dipper, etc.

If someone is teaching you to block in Taiji then I would doubt their Taiji.
No not necessarily. Execution of technique. You could use soft or hard jin to execute a block ( soft jin more focused on neutralizing).


Taiji doesn't block if it idid then listening, sticking, following/yielding would all be redundant aspects.
You have the option to block without listening, following, etc. There are strikes in taiji (but it is not emphasize).

You don't block in Taiji, you don't use force against force.
Main principal in Taiji. I agree. Maybe a better term would be to neutralize.

If you want Karate train Karate if you want Taiji train Taiji.
Agree. Just trying to borrow some techniques form another art and apply them using taiji princiapals.

[Gangsterfist]

There are blocks in taiji. Just remember every movement has 40 applications (rule of thumb).

[Repulsive Monkey]

Sorry but Fair Lady weaves shuttle and Seven Stars are not blocks. Fair Lady directs a fist upwards whilst still sticking to it and then underneath whilst still issuing a rising Jin to opponent to attack with the free hands on their flank or chest region. You do not use force against their force and you do not cause their attack to stop, its a redirection and moving force to avert and neutralize NOT A BLOCK!!!! If you have been taught it as a block then you have been taught inccorectly.

Step up to Seven Stars is again using a rising Jin to connect and stick as its main application lies in the following into Step back and hit Tiger move. It leads an oncoming force upwards and then back to the side. However on its own it continues to cause the opponents force to rise without force against force while the empty leg is available to kick the opponent.

I'm sorry but there are not blocks in Taiji which cause someone elses force to stop still with force against force. That application must be from another art not Taiji.

[Gangsterfist]

Whoever said that a block had to use force against force? Blocks can be internal as they can be external. In the english dictionary the word block means to obstruct. Click HERE (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=block) for a definition. The meaning of obstruction is:

ob·struct ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-strkt, b-)
tr.v. ob·struct·ed, ob·struct·ing, ob·structs

1. To block or fill (a passage) with obstacles or an obstacle. See Synonyms at block.
2. To impede, retard, or interfere with; hinder: obstructed my progress. See Synonyms at hinder1.
3. To get in the way of so as to hide from sight.


There are definately blocks in taiji. There are many different lineages of Taiji and even some external forms and parts in some families taiji. That does not make it right or wrong. If it works it works. To translate taiji into english it means the grand ultimate. Meaning taiji is everything, kicking punching blocking, controlling, warding, pushing, etc. Overall taiji mainly concerns itself with just controlling energies. I have only studied taiji for a short while and only know the first short form so I am no authority on taiji, but I think its principles span over lots of aspects of many different martial arts.

Just some thoughts...

[norther practitioner]

Geez, I guess someone has never heard of step, intercept, block, and punch... or white crane spreads it's wings.



If you have been taught it as a block then you have been taught inccorectly.


The near arm on fair lady does "block" or intercept, or redirect, etc... stop being too literal.

One (not "THE", but one) of the applications that we practice with white crane spreads its wings is two blocks (a bit more akin to parries) to punches, then lift front foot to avoid a sweep, then block and stike with brush knee twist step.

[backbreaker]

Peng

[backbreaker]

I don't know. I know no karate at all, but I saw a demonstration of a form, and although it obviously has no obvious spiral energy, I at least saw a move in the form that was surprisingly similar to cover head and push mountain. Especially the cover head part of the move using opposing forces, an energy in taiji. I don't know, people say xingyi is similar to taiji. You cannot see the internal , they say. The internal looks like you did nothing. Internal, external, hard , soft, are banned at some forums. Different ways, but to the same end, some say

On the one hand, they seem at least somewhat different from each other to me, but on the other hand they seem related or connected at some level, at the least some common techniques.

[Gangsterfist]

Yeah white crane spreads its wings definately comes into mind as a block, and so does repulsing the monkeys, it can be applied as blocking while retreating. That is just one of its applications though.

[norther practitioner]

repulsing the monkeys

I've done that too, but usually go with the grab and stike, I've also used the step back with kicks, or spikes to kicks.

[backbreaker]

Chen style Taiji has powerful strikes. I mean powerful. I'm not just saying this. My feeling is that the internal/external is getting out of control. Styles are not internal or external, the aspects of the systems are internal and external and most styles have both. But if you don't have internal, you don't have internal, but a good style will have both. My feeling is that Taiji and Karate are distant cousins, or else maybe the similarities are total coincidence.

[Gangsterfist]

I study yang style taiji, which is different, but I am not sure what the exact differences are. I don't train taiji as my main martial art. I blend it with my wing chun, which from a controlling perspective is actually quite genius IMHO. My lineage of wing chun always advocates to be nuetral, niether external or internal but neutral. Now on the high skill level there really is no external/internal. On a high skill level the martial artists is both internal and external. One will never be better than the other, they are just different. Tiger boxing is pretty external, taiji is pretty internal. On a high level of training and skill the practitioner would be both internal and external. By consequence when you learn one you ultimately learn both.

Hope that makes sense. This is my opinion after somewhat experience in karate, wing chun, taiji, judo, and some MMA type training.

[EarthDragon]

To clarify,
a block in martial arts terms is force on force, "not the dictionary term whoever used the websters" but it is done to stop an attack. But in regards to tai chi we do not neccesarly block. We redirect with our opponets force, not ours therefore not stopping the attack but rather opening up for our counter attack without using energy. it takes energy to block, this goes against tai chi priciples. So again you cannot train in shotokan to improve your tai chi.
Nor can you roller blade to improve your golf swing. although they both involve the body. do you see how silly this type of thinking is?

[Gangsterfist]

This argument is about apples and oranges, its all semantics.

[norther practitioner]

We redirect with our opponets force, not ours therefore not stopping the attack but rather opening up for our counter attack without using energy.

From what I understand, this differs from school to school. If you apply no force, then there energy will not be redirected....

[backbreaker]

Can white crane chin na, improve your understanding Wu or Yang style chin na?

Obviously ground fighting is only minimally beneficial to stand up. Or is it? Would wresting not improve a kickboxer? ( how bout san shou?). Some kickboxers are not particularly strong on inside fighting

[EarthDragon]

Dear nothern practioner,
while some stlyes may have slight differs in the execution they all are similar in content.

You said "If you apply no force, then there energy will not be redirected"not really sure what you mean here.

You must not apply force when using your opponets energy against them, this allows you to repel as they say 2000lbs with 4 ounces of energy. if you use your own energy to redirect it leaves less to counter with. This is just the opposite in karate, they use all the power in the block to mame or break the opponents limbs then counter when neccessary. This is why it is not proper to compare karate and tai chi to different animals indeed.

[norther practitioner]

I'm saying I'm not going to use a wet noodle to reinforce a bridge girder.

To redirect anything, there must be some force applied...

taiji..take the symbol.. there is always some yin in the yang, and always some yang within the yin....

I wouldn't put all taiji parries/blocks in with "hard blocks" but they are there... it isn't like the karate x-block... but I'm saying, you redirecting there energy, can, and is, by many termed as a block.

Physics dictates this, not ma style.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
This argument is about apples and oranges, its all semantics.

Argh. I'm glad I'm not an English major any more, lest I be forced to say something here.

[Royal Dragon]

Taking Karate to improve Taiji would work, IF you are taking it to understand it, so you can better figure out how to apply your Taiji against it. Or maybe to test, and practice if you already know how.

Any thoughts on my comment??

[bamboo_ leaf]

Physics dictates this, not ma style.

This would be true, if people where made of stone with no mind.
What your redirecting is their mind. Their body will follow.

Taking up anything else to enhance or supplement ones understanding of taiji is a recipe for misunderstanding. :(

If it is usage that is not understood practice more, and try it, a common saying (invest in loss) a good way to follow, big losses big gain, small loss small gain.

[Gangsterfist]

Whenever you attack someone you are extending your body and using force. There may be none or miminal tension when doing this, but its still force.

When doing push hands you are still extending your body and using force. If you were not using any force your arms would be limp like wet noodles. However, if you tense then more than likely your opponet is going to get the best of you. So you are using force, but with no tension. I have heard some sifus refer to this as intent.

For me, push hands was and still is pretty tough. I am so used to chi sao and always drilling into my opponet. Push hands is similar but just in different motions, and both are not using tension

[SPJ]

There are some punches and kicks in Chen's Tai Ji. It is called canon fist (Pao Tzwei). There are big swings of arms, however, you jerk or shake violently before hitting. These are missing in Yang's Tai Ji. When Pao Tzwei was first shown in Peking, everybody was supprised because everybody only knew Yang's Tai Ji. For the most part, it is still true today, because there are more Yang's Tai Ji students than Chen's.

Some definitions in Chinese martial arts:

Block (Fon) means to stop the movement of the force outright. for example, if somebody swings his arm up and then down to chop (Pi) your shoulder, you move forward half a step and raise your hand to stop him at a site above the elbow. You stop him altogether before he moves his arm down. That is a block or Fon.

Oftentimes, you only need to deflect the approaching arm or leg by introducing a small force laterally, upward or downward.

If you use a strong force horizontal to the opponent's force to stop him and also cripple him, it is called Lei. All the karate and taikwando hard "block" is actually strong Lei. In Tai Ji, you only need to use a small force but sudden enough to have the same effect.

Jade girl weaving (Yu Ni Zhuan So), Step forward seven stars (San Bu Chi Xing), and even Cross hands (Si Zi Sou). They are contact and deflect. They are not block. You rotate your forearm to contact, you use a small circular force to merge into a stronger linear force and guide it upwards and laterally. The main Jin is from your 2 hands forming a balance tension. As if your waist is the center of the ball, and your 2 feet and 2 hands are surface of the ball. All Tai Ji moves end with 2 hands go outward (Peng) at the same time. as if surface tension of a ball. This way it is defense and offense at the same time. The opponent's force may not enter the center of the ball, which is your chest/abdomen. The opponent is always bounced off the ball formed by your 2 hands and sometimes 2 feet, too.

[Repulsive Monkey]

As I say to a few posts back and what seems to be a few other learned types in here there is a distinction between blocking, which Taiji does not advocate, and using listening, sticking and following energies to deflect something. White Crane is in no way a block it is issuing of a rising Jin to dlfect, direct upwards. You need the sink to get the qi rising. Repulsive monkey is quite clearly contact and sticking with the back of the hand as it directs downwards drawing the opponents hand down with sinking jin, and naturally attacking with the flat palm forward, there is no block whatsoever in it.

Im sorry gangsterfist but on an aheived level Taiji is totally internal, not half internal half external.

Intent is meanigful direction of attention with the mind. Intent is the mind. Attacking someone with relaxed muscles is not intent.
The difference between wet noodle which is totally useless and sung and open, is that the two states of relaxtion has one (wet noodle) with the joints closed and cavities closed, and the other all muscles are relaxed but the joints are open the limbs are relaxed but extended.

By the way whoever said it it isn't intercept, parry and block, its intercept parry and chop and then punch. As I say there are no blocks in Taiji, you never stop the flow of movement of your opponent with force, everything is re-directed or deflected, and if you think this is semantically the same then you have a misunderstanding on a practical level.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

If you hold your forearm in front of you and parallel to the ground then raise it to "block" a downward chop.. you have a hard block..

If you hold your forearm in front of you and raise it at increasing angles approaching perpendicular to the ground (also twisting the waist), then you intercept and deflect a downward chop (white Crane spreads wings)..

In both instances you have prevented the intended harm.. the block requires "restarting" the energy flow (external), the intercept and deflect continues the flow of movement (internal)..

Yes, the Secret Society of North American Mouth Warriors will beat the flesh off this already dead and rotting Equine species.. we will choose to believe what we will.. who is right or wrong will be evident only at the crossing of hands.. "Faith without works is dead", believe what you will.. but test it and let the evidence show you the "way" (Tao)..

Be well...

[Vash]

Semantics ain't got nothing to do with crappy understanding of the written English language!!!

[red5angel]

Physics dictates this, not ma style

NP - you're not allowing for the Qi factor here man, Qi does not require physics. ;)

I don't buy into internal vs. external. It's just another way to divide the martial community. I can understand that the mechanics are slightly different with the so called differences in approach but ultimately internal calls too much upon the mystical for an explanation.

[norther practitioner]

You guys want some granola with that?:rolleyes:

[Vash]

RedFizzle has taken the correct and burned it like it was a draft card.

D@mn dirty hippies.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Those that refer to Qi as "mystical" simply haven't experienced it with awareness.. to those that have it is quite natural.. I am considering the notion that Qi excites muscle reactions much more efficiently and with more power than a mental command, and it by-passes the thought processes, after much training.. Qi is simply the energy that animates this otherwise inert pile of chemicals and compounds we call a body.. It is the degree to which we can understand and use the Qi that is important, it exists whether we believe it or not (regardless of what we name it)..

Be well...

[red5angel]

uh, and that's not mystical?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
uh, and that's not mystical? Depends on your POV. Nature is natural to me, not mystical.

[Vash]

As I said before, you d@mn dirty hippies.

[norther practitioner]

I believe in chi, I do qi gong, however... some of this is a load of crap.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Vash
As I said before, you d@mn dirty hippies. Well, all kidding aside, just because one believes they are not the center of creation and feels there is a connection between themself and the universe which spawned them, does not make one a hippy that believes in chi blasts.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

There's nothing mystical about it.. Qi is nature at its finest.. the western mind is only just now evolving toward accepting what has been considered natural by Eastern cultures for thousands of years..

Be well..

[red5angel]

well then let me clarify, he says:


Qi excites muscle reactions much more efficiently and with more power than a mental command, and it by-passes the thought processes, after much training.. Qi is simply the energy that animates this otherwise inert pile of chemicals and compounds we call a body

implying that Qi is an energy that stands alone from the way we understand the body to work now. He almost implies it has some sort of intellect, like the force from star wars, cause it somehow makes the muscles move more efficiently then the brain. Somehow taichibob has managed to cut his muscles off from his brain and drive them with chi. how can this be since your muscles are hardwired into your brain through the nervous system?
He also gives it "soul" like abilites, animating this otherwise inert pile of chenicals and compounds. Sorry, this all sounds pretty mystical to me.
If you were to say that Qi was a deeper understanding of, and training in the co-ordination of natural biological functions of the body, muscle movement, skeletal alignment and all that. I fyou want to say that one can train so much and so often that he gains a mastery over his body and the way it works that others of his peers do not, I could go with that too. But to describe it as some "mysterious" energy that not only gives life, but makes you a super fighter.....

[Vash]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Well, all kidding aside, just because one believes they are not the center of creation and feels there is a connection between themself and the universe which spawned them, does not make one a hippy that believes in chi blasts.

Actually, yes, yes it does. :eek: :p

I'm something of a cynic. I do personally believe in chi, and hope to eventually get a decent instructor for so Qi Gong. I'm just a bit hestitant to accept claims of qi's nullification (my words) of outside force when body mechanics can be used to describe the same events.

But again, I am approaching this from a Western-minded perspective.

Chin.kuchi owns all over chi, by the way.

SWEET CRISSMAS! WHY IS THIS THING CENSORING CHIN KU CHI?!

[Vash]

Originally posted by red5angel
implying that Qi is an energy that stands alone from the way we understand the body to work now. He almost implies it has some sort of intellect, like the force from star wars, cause it somehow makes the muscles move more efficiently then the brain. Somehow taichibob has managed to cut his muscles off from his brain and drive them with chi. how can this be since your muscles are hardwired into your brain through the nervous system?
He also gives it "soul" like abilites, animating this otherwise inert pile of chenicals and compounds. Sorry, this all sounds pretty mystical to me.
If you were to say that Qi was a deeper understanding of, and training in the co-ordination of natural biological functions of the body, muscle movement, skeletal alignment and all that. I fyou want to say that one can train so much and so often that he gains a mastery over his body and the way it works that others of his peers do not, I could go with that too. But to describe it as some "mysterious" energy that not only gives life, but makes you a super fighter.....

That's what I was thinking.

[red5angel]

in my experience Vash that's all it has ever been. I could see how one who wouldn't know any better, say a chinamen about 1000 yrs ago, would see a martial artist who practices 8 hours or more a day everyday, perform incredible feats of body control, might assume that he has some sort of mystical power. However, everyone I have ever met who claims to train in Qi, or have some control over it, is just exhibiting superb control over their body, something you gain with training.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
He also gives it "soul" like abilites, animating this otherwise inert pile of chenicals and compounds. Sorry, this all sounds pretty mystical to me.Mystical means having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence; if you can feel it or explain it rationally, then it is not mystical.

If you were to say that Qi was a deeper understanding of, and training in the co-ordination of natural biological functions of the body, muscle movement, skeletal alignment and all that. I fyou want to say that one can train so much and so often that he gains a mastery over his body and the way it works that others of his peers do not, I could go with that too. [/B]It is a natural biological function of your body. It is also a natural biological function of a tree. It is why you are alive and a rock is not.

[red5angel]

if you can feel it or explain it rationally, then it is not mystical.

Other then the body control thing, I've never heard it described rationally, certainly how taichibob describes it doesn't fit into what I would define as "rational". I think Han Solo said it best:

"[I]'ve flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field controls my destiny."




It is a natural biological function of your body. It is also a natural biological function of a tree. It is why you are alive and a rock is not.

again, never seen any definitive proof of this either way. I'm alive because of a complex chain of carbon molecules require replication, and have come up with a pretty complex and elegant way to do that. The rock, is not.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
in my experience Vash that's all it has ever been. I could see how one who wouldn't know any better, say a chinamen about 1000 yrs ago, would see a martial artist who practices 8 hours or more a day everyday, perform incredible feats of body control, might assume that he has some sort of mystical power. However, everyone I have ever met who claims to train in Qi, or have some control over it, is just exhibiting superb control over their body, something you gain with training. My feeling is that the "physical abilities" people attribute to Chi were a way of understanding extreme physical conditoning in an age when people were generally very unhealthy. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean Chi doesn't exist, and that it isn't vital to life and health. I just don't think it's directly responsible for any plausible fighting methods any more thanrunning wind sprints are....A healthy body is vital for a fighter...chi is vital for health....that's the real connection.

[red5angel]

My feeling is that the "physical abilities" people attribute to Chi were a way of understanding extreme physical conditoning in an age when people were generally very unhealthy. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean Chi doesn't exist, and that it isn't vital to life and health. I just don't think it's directly responsible for any plausible fighting methods any more thanrunning wind sprints are....A healthy body is vital for a fighter...chi is vital for health....that's the real connection.

you don't see an odd paralell there somwhere MK? One get's healthy by exercising, good kungfu fighters who also exercised alot were often said to have good control of the qi, or atleast a deeper understandning, the same guys who were exercising and learning to use their bodies, alot.


My feeling is that the "physical abilities" people attribute to Chi were a way of understanding extreme physical conditoning in an age when people were generally very unhealthy

This is EXACTLY what I am saying.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
[B] I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field controls my destiny.""Don't trust your eyes. They can deceive you."--Obi-Wan Kenobi.

You ever have a bad feeling about something? Maybe not like someone but you didn't know why? How do you explain these things?

I'm not saying Chi is responsible. All I'm saying is there are a lot of things that happen in the universe that maybe your 5 senses can't register, or that your brain isn't conditioned to comprehend.

[red5angel]

You ever have a bad feeling about something? Maybe not like someone but you didn't know why? How do you explain these things?

What does that have to do with Qi? Msst often those are states of mind brought on by outside or internal mental or emotional stimulus of some sort.

I have noticed that whenever Qi is questioned, an oft used response goes something like "the western mind is just now learning to understand..." It might be possible that that may be backwards and it is finally time for the Eastern mind to let go of old fetters.

[backbreaker]

There is a book written by a guy named Nathan J. Johnson called Barefoot Zen. In it the author claims learning kungfu helped him understand the kata applications he never understood in Karate, especially qinna and shuai chiao .


Also, the people saying Taiji is a hundred percent internal I am fairly sure are incorrect.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel


you don't see an odd paralell there somwhere MK? One get's healthy by exercising, good kungfu fighters who also exercised alot were often said to have good control of the qi, or atleast a deeper understandning, the same guys who were exercising and learning to use their bodies, alot.

This is EXACTLY what I am saying. Yeah, I see the parallel. That's what I said. I don't think of Chi in terms of fighting ability because of this; but because I don't think of it in terms of fighting ability doesn't mean I think it doesn't exist.

Read Emerson's thoughts on The Oversoul sometime. It's a Western perspective on Eastern concepts.

http://www.mindspring.com/~channing1/Frontpage/oversoul.html

[Repulsive Monkey]

Backbreaker why are you fairly sure that they are inccorect? Has your mastery of Taiji shown you otherwise?

Eventually when practicising in Taiji your art becomes more and more internal, thats a fact!

[red5angel]

couldn't get passed the first paragraph, it's more mysticism essentially.
Here's the problem with something like Qi - While I can show you that if I were to train to do something I can't now, and I end up being able to do it with a frightening amount of skill, you could claim it's Qi, even though we both know and agree it's an amount of body control. You take it even ****her MK, by saying you believe it's necessary for life. I can point out genetics, evolution and all that stuff that is traceable and verifiable, and you can point out that we live and breath. You might have some stories about some guy on a mountain top somewhere who lived to 1000yrs old (ironically most of tyhese guys when historically traced back, end up having a physically exhertive life, taht kept them in pretty good shape) and say that that is proof. It's like the gremlin under the chair, it's a negative and you can't prove or disprove a negative.

[backbreaker]

Read this

http://www.taijigongfu.com/gongfu.html

My understanding is 50% hard, 50% soft. Upper and lower, left and right, fron and back coordinated, perfection

Also expand and contract to various degrees;)
Expanding and contracting is very good for health

[red5angel]

Also, the people saying Taiji is a hundred percent internal I am fairly sure are incorrect.

They are, Tiaji is about yin and yang, balance, but most taichi peope now a days have it in their head that their art could never use so called external principles.

As far as I am conerned, when a taichi guy, or any other internalist can do what he does without using muscle I'll start calling it internal.

[red5angel]

here is what I find ironic - I took this from taht article posted by baclbreaker

"Internal arts focus on the internal invisible facility of the human body. Those consist of mind intention, cultivation and circulation of Qi, breath, and use of small muscles as well as vital organs."

If you were to take "cultivation and circulation of chi" you pretty much have what so called "external" guys are doing as well.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
couldn't get passed the first paragraph, it's more mysticism essentially.Again, if you can feel it, it's not mystical. Nature is all around us, and you are a part of it. The same rules that govern lilly pads govern you. Emerson's point we are intuitively at one with the world, but consciously at odds with it.


Here's the problem with something like Qi - While I can show you that if I were to train to do something I can't now, and I end up being able to do it with a frightening amount of skill, you could claim it's Qi, even though we both know and agree it's an amount of body control. Yep.


You take it even ****her MK, by saying you believe it's necessary for life. I can point out genetics, evolution and all that stuff that is traceable and verifiable, and you can point out that we live and breath. Genetics and evoltuion are responsible for the continuation of species, not the source of life.


You might have some stories about some guy on a mountain top somewhere who lived to 1000yrs old (ironically most of tyhese guys when historically traced back, end up having a physically exhertive life, taht kept them in pretty good shape) and say that that is proof. It's like the gremlin under the chair, it's a negative and you can't prove or disprove a negative. [/B] You can't prove to within a shadow of doubt that God doesn't exist, can you? You feel what you feel.

Really, I'm speaking from a religious perspective and not a martial one.

[red5angel]

Genetics and evoltuion are responsible for the continuation of species, not the source of life.


uh, ok. I have no way to argue that because with everything I learned in science this is dead wrong. But here is where you could slip in a "well our western minds..." comment.


You can't prove to within a shadow of doubt that God doesn't exist, can you? You feel what you feel.

another negative. Obviously you have to view it on faith, same as Qi.

By the way, I've worked with some internal guys, even felt what they described as Qi working away in my body. A great example is the wamrth that flows through you when you begin to do certain exercises. Never mind the fact that gravity and blood pooling are in effect here, they claimed that wamrth was Qi. Another good one is when you do a deep stance that supposedly builds Qi, you can feel that rush, mostly in your head, and your body gets warm. That rush in your head is the same thing Fighter pilots try to force when they are doing high g maneuvers. In the legs are some pretty large muscles, and they can be used to help keep blood circulating through the body, by squeezing or flexing them, what happens when your in a deep stance.
Long life - simple enough to explain, usually heavily involved with genetics, but influenced by health, including exercise and diet. Lt's not forget a little bit of luck as well.

In essence, everything htat Qi can supposedly explain, can also be explained through biology and rational sciences. Back in the day, Qi worked well enough, just like the sky was a large black bowl and the stars were holes that let through a little bit of heaven.

[norther practitioner]

:o

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
[B] uh, ok. I have no way to argue that because with everything I learned in science this is dead wrong. But here is where you could slip in a "well our western minds..." comment. Don't put words in my mouth. With all you *****ing about Kung Lek, I'd think you would avoid such things. Show me proof of how life started on this planet. Where was the chemical reaction? What triggered it?


In essence, everything htat Qi can supposedly explain, can also be explained through biology and rational sciences. Back in the day, Qi worked well enough, just like the sky was a large black bowl and the stars were holes that let through a little bit of heaven. Man, you can be a narrow-minded pizz-ant sometimes. At any rate, I'm not trying to convert you. I just have a different belief system than you do.

[red5angel]

MK, I'm going to make something plain here, I was under the impression this was going to be a friendly discussion. If it can't be then I will draw the line right here. I know ultimately we are both going to walk away feeling pretty much the same way as we came in, but someitmes it's fun to discuss none the less.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, that wasn't specifically meant for you, but that is often the response one gets at that point in this discussion. I said what I said to underline the fact that that excuse does not fly with me. I've already stated that it's not the western mind that is backward, but the eastern belief in Qi. It's easier to explain Qi through biological means, and it's most often directly traceable through generally understood biomechanical principles, until you get into the mysticism.


Show me proof of how life started on this planet. Where was the chemical reaction? What triggered it?

Hard to do, but not so nearly hard as to prove god or that Qi exists. I'm not evolutionary scientists, and my biology is good but fairly basic. Those things can be roughly traced back, and a picture can be formed that is not complete. The small details have to be put together but they are trying, and it is happening, slowly but surely. Mind you, as an aside, evolution has never in my mind been a good point to prove god does not exist, it's a weak argument since the way such a being would work is unfathomable by our standards and could choose to bring about life any way it apparently chooses.
However, we do know beyond any doubt, that we are alive because our blood floows, it's regenerated with oxygen, and recieves other necessities through the act of digestion and carries it all to where it needs to go. Chemical reactions in our brain map our who we are and what we can do. There's no if ands our butts about this. It has never been shown that something else is needed for us to survive beyond what is observable.


Man, you can be a narrow-minded ****-ant sometimes

Who can't? Your being atleast as narrow minded as I am about it at the moment. Ironic isn't it? however, I'm actually pretty open minded about it, I went out searching for that elusive Qi, but never found anything but biology. Oh I know, it takes years and years of study to understand it right? Well, then why would these guys willing to show me what they have or know, point out various reactions or experiences even beginners are supposed to get? Even experiencing the so called Qi in someone who has studied for years, I saw nothing but good body mechanics. The only difference is that while my explanation could have been sort of dry, and boring, the idea of Qi is exciting and mystical.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
I'm not putting words in your mouth, that wasn't specifically meant for you, but that is often the response one gets at that point in this discussion.Well, when you quote me, then respond to me, and then say "this is where you say X," it seemed directed at me.


It's easier to explain Qi through biological means, and it's most often directly traceable through generally understood biomechanical principles, until you get into the mysticism.I'm suggesting that Qi is biological. You seem to remain firm that I think it's mystical. Everything that happens in your body is biological.


Hard to do, but not so nearly hard as to prove god or that Qi exists.Uummm......no. Both are subjective and full of compromises. Your own point of view determines which compromises you are willing to make.


However, we do know beyond any doubt, that we are alive because our blood floows, it's regenerated with oxygen, and recieves other necessities through the act of digestion and carries it all to where it needs to go. Chemical reactions in our brain map our who we are and what we can do. There's no if ands our butts about this. It has never been shown that something else is needed for us to survive beyond what is observable.You did it! That explains trees, grass, microbes, ants, amoebas, viral strains, and string theory all in one paragraph!

You are operating under the impression that life = humans. I am opeating under the impression that life is inclusive to all living things, even those without a brain stem.


I went out searching for that elusive Qi, but never found anything but biology. Well, then you found Qi. Hard to see the forest with all those trees blocking your view, huh?

[red5angel]

Well, when you quote me, then respond to me, and then say "this is where you say X," it seemed directed at me.

my bad, my apologies.




I'm suggesting that Qi is biological. You seem to remain firm that I think it's mystical. Everything that happens in your body is biological.

Then how do you explain it biologically?


Both are subjective and full of compromises.


Both are a matter of faith, not subjectiveness. They are both negatives, there is no solid proof of the existence of either.


You are operating under the impression that life = humans.

Not really, no. I'm using human beings as an example cause it's the best example you and I can empathize with and fully understand to the best of our ability.


Well, then you found Qi.

This comment taken in context doesn't make any sense. Unless Qi, has suddenly come to mean in your view, a general word for all things biological, then it doesn't apply to what I said. Qi, is not biology, although I understand that you believe it is a part of biology, even in your view it would be much like, muscle, or bone, and neither of those are biology but an aspect of biology.
If you are saying that Qi, is just an superb amount of control over your body, then we are in agreement. You have implied however in your past posts that it is something more.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

With all your faith in science and "proof" and such.. the challenge is this, assemble all your science masters and give them exactly the same proportions of chemicals and compounds required to form a human being.. will they build a living human? NO! What then, is missing? something... science can't reproduce it, science can't measure it.. so, by your own theories the missing stuff must be mystical...

This energy is not seperate from us, it is us.. it is not mystical, except in the eyes of those too frightened to admit there may exist something about themselves they don't understand.. too many people fear that which they don't understand.. Qi IS a natural biological function, not seperate from the mind.. it actually complements the mind, bypassing the slow thought process in times of peril, adding strength when needed, etc...

But, as i said.. we will believe what we choose until our personal experiences provide evidence to the contrary.. and, its almost comical to see someone quote a fictional fantasy character from a sci-fi movie in an attempt to support their "rational" beliefs..

Indeed, the training we go through hones our bodies, sharpens our skills and even uses the Qi some of us don't believe in..


I could see how one who wouldn't know any better, say a chinamen about 1000 yrs ago, would see a martial artist who practices 8 hours or more a day everyday, perform incredible feats of body control, might assume that he has some sort of mystical power.

The same holds true today, some people look at "Qi" and assume it's mystical mumbo-jumbo.. 1000 years from now it may be a scientific fact.. Simply because it can't be measured today, doesn't invalidate it.. it only means that your particular standards remain uncertain and your tools not yet sufficiently refined..

The true loss is whenever people assume that there's nothing left to discover, that their perspective should be everyone's truth.. as for me, i'll keep the door of possibility open.. AND, i'll keep on training at every level to improve who i am..

Be well...

[MasterKiller]

Both are a matter of faith, not subjectiveness. They are both negatives, there is no solid proof of the existence of either.Science is a matter of faith? I think you misunderstood when I was saying both are subjective---meaning science and religious experience.


Not really, no. I'm using human beings as an example cause it's the best example you and I can empathize with and fully understand to the best of our ability.Nevertheless, it stands to reason that there are experiences that occur outside the realm of human awareness; String theory being one such plausible scientific experience of which we are not consciously aware, but are dependent on, for existence.


Unless Qi, has suddenly come to mean in your view, a general word for all things biological, then it doesn't apply to what I said.You are talking about bio-mechanics, not biology. Biology is the study of living things and vital processes to life; biomechanics is the scientific study of mechanics of biological and especially muscular activity (as in locomotion or exercise).

[red5angel]

With all your faith in science and "proof" and such.. the challenge is this, assemble all your science masters and give them exactly the same proportions of chemicals and compounds required to form a human being.. will they build a living human? NO!

LOL! Well, I'm not going to even begin to touch that, we know that technologically that's not posisble, and genetically, it's not how that works, but the future is a funny thing. We can already take the basic building blocks and create a seperate life form through artificial means. IT's only a matter of time taichibob. Just because a thing cannot be done, doesn't mean that it is proof of something else. If I gave you all the materials to build an 80 story building, could you build it on your own? No, but it can be done anyway.




except in the eyes of those too frightened to admit there may exist something about themselves they don't understand.

That's a huge assumption, and one I would challenge is ironically made in fear of the truth ;) You're talking to someone who has no doubt that life exists on other planets.


too many people fear that which they don't understand

and too many people don't take the time to understand.



its almost comical to see someone quote a fictional fantasy character from a sci-fi movie in an attempt to support their "rational" beliefs..

almost, unless you understand it's in context, and equivelant response to something I consider fanatsy, not reality.



Simply because it can't be measured today, doesn't invalidate it

true, but typically there is something tangible to lead us into that belief in the first place. Qi, is much like phlogiston, only we have the advantage today of explaining both, it's just some choose to take a more mystical route.


The true loss is whenever people assume that there's nothing left to discover

preachng to the choir.

[red5angel]

Nevertheless, it stands to reason that there are experiences that occur outside the realm of human awareness; String theory being one such plausible scientific experience of which we are not consciously aware, but are dependent on, for existence.

yes but string theory is just that, theory. Quantum physics is a funny thing, and my feeling is that sometime in the future alot of it is going to fall through the floor of science. however, I do agree that there are thngs for which we are not yet aware of. however, in regards to Qi, the affects some claim it has can be explained through science very easily.


You are talking about bio-mechanics, not biology. Biology is the study of living things and vital processes to life; biomechanics is the scientific study of mechanics of biological and especially muscular activity (as in locomotion or exercise).

I'm sure you know what I mean. But in case there is any confusion, bio-mechanics and biology easily explains away Qi.

But that is what happens as time goes on. Science discovered the theory of phlogiston was incorrect. Newton was found to be not totally correct. Einstien is getting further and firther from the truth. Qi is no different. At one time it worked to explain things for which people had no explanation.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
however, I do agree that there are thngs for which we are not yet aware of. however, in regards to Qi, the affects some claim it has can be explained through science very easily. I agree.


But in case there is any confusion, bio-mechanics easily explains away Qi. [/B] Biomechanics explains away some of the affects people attribute to qi, but does not explain away qi in the sense that I have been discussing.


But that is what happens as time goes on. Science discovered the theory of phlogiston was incorrect. Newton was found to be not totally correct. Einstien is getting further and firther from the truth. Which is why I said science is as subjective as religion.

[red5angel]

here is my challenge to you then MK. Explain to me first, what Qi is to you, then how you can see it's affects or how you can observe in some way , it's effects.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
here is my challenge to you then MK. Explain to me first, what Qi is to you, then how you can see it's affects or how you can observe in some way , it's effects. First, you make an amoeba from scratch in a lab and then I will prove qi exists. Deal?

Now, let's move on.

[red5angel]

First, you make an amoeba from scratch in a lab and then I will prove qi exists. Deal?



noooooooooo, it doesn't work that way my freind. See, what you and taichibob ask is false logic. You assume that because I, or man cannot do it that it must hold some truth that helps you prove your point. You cannot build that 80 story skyscraper on your own any more then I can build an amoeba on my own (I can however point you to some good websites for artificial life, of which some behave like amoeba, and some behave much more intelligently). you cannot build a star on your own, although the universe seems to have no problem doing it.
Besides, I didn't ask you to prove it existed, I asked you what it is to you.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by red5angel

(I can however point you to some good websites for artificial life, of which some behave like amoeba, and some behave much more intelligently).

I'm curious. What websites?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
Besides, I didn't ask you to prove it existed, I asked you what it is to you. And I already answered that, but you didn't like my answer.


You assume that because I, or man cannot do it that it must hold some truth that helps you prove your point. So because something is immeasurable by current technology, or unfelt by you, then it can still exist? Egads!


you cannot build a star on your own, although the universe seems to have no problem doing it. Does the universe act willfully to create things?

[red5angel]

http://www.alife.org/

That's a good place to start. They have links as well, some of them you can download your own software and check it out. I'm goign to try to find one I came across a while back that turned out to be really good. IF you want I can also see what titles I ahve in my personal library. It's something I did quite a bit of my own research on about 6 years ago and still check up on from time to time.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I sense we quibble over a silly word "Qi".. and conceptually we agree on many levels.. i don't sense that "Qi Blasts" are forthcoming in this evolutionary era ( i don't dismiss them though)..


IT's only a matter of time taichibob. Just because a thing cannot be done, doesn't mean that it is proof of something else. If I gave you all the materials to build an 80 story building, could you build it on your own? No, but it can be done anyway.

I do not suggest that it's "proof", only that there is room for possibility.. i can examine the materials and ascertain the process and agree that the building CAN be built.. just as i can witness and experience Qi and ascertain its value.. and yes, it IS just a matter of time before we all realize greater "truths".. still, i sense that we quibble over a word that translates poorly.. i sense that, based on sound physics principles, the universe is a fertile sea of energy that behaves according to patterns of consciousness (now, that will really crank it up!!) and "Qi" is just one more aspect of the energy..

That being said, our existence is largely fixed by our rigid belief systems and currently our physical bodies respond to our beliefs quite readily.. we differ in beliefs and in methods while reaching for the same goal.. i respectfully borrow from many peoples beliefs and methods in support of my own path.. and i only offer my insights in the same spirit.. if someone does not favor my beliefs, i respect that.. and i will still offer my insights without the claim of "truth", it is only that which "i" can validate.. i do not sense Qi as "mystical", we may differ in our interpretation of mystical.. that's okay, too.. if we all thought alike, this would be a terribly boring forum.. The most notable effect of differing opinions is the loss of respect demonstrated by insults and such..

I largely accept that there is an electro-bio-chemical process that has organized itself into a functioning human form.. but, i also accept that it is all supported by a basic energy/force void of religious or mystical connotations.. just a deeper, yet largely untapped, source of evolutionary potential..

Be well...

[red5angel]

I do not suggest that it's "proof", only that there is room for possibility


I could go with that if there were current indications to allow for potentiality. However, I have never seen, or otherwise observed any reasonable proof that Qi exists. That's all I ask for, instead of providing mystical, or vague answers to the question, why is it the only proof that I have ever been offered has always been explainable by bio-mechanics or biology?

[norther practitioner]

why is it the only proof that I have ever been offered has always been explainable by bio-mechanics or biology?

Even if it biology or bio-mechanics, that doesn't mean it is not qi.

[EarthDragon]

red5angel, the proof that chi exsists is life! you are partaking in that are you not ?
what more proof do you need? I dont understand how someone could be involved in martial arts and not understand chi @#$%#@

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
why is it the only proof that I have ever been offered has always been explainable by bio-mechanics or biology? Because it is a biological function and adherent to physical laws. It cannot be explained otherwise.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
red5angel, the proof that chi exsists is life! you are partaking in that are you not ?
what more proof do you need? I dont understand how someone could be involved in martial arts and not understand chi @#$%#@ I for one don't think chi is inherent to fight training specifically. You might as well ask Michael Jordan why he doesn't understand chi.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Now, stay with me here.. i know it's a reach, but.. how about the documentation that demonstrates a diminutive woman moving an auto to save her child.. clearly, the flesh, bone and muscle would not cause that effect.. in fact, the evidence is that some of these feats exceed the stress limits of the individuals involved.. i'm not suggesting "Qi" did it.. i am suggesting that the mind or will or spirit or whatever used an available resource to exceed the supposed limits of stress sustainable by the physical beings involved..

A personal experience.. when i was a teenager a neighbor that was an ethical hypnotist did this demonstration on me.. he took me to a high level of suggestability and dropped a penny in my hand.. he told me the penny was "red-hot", and i felt the pain.. most remarkable was the blister which formed minutes later.. no direct stimulus, just the mind effecting a reaction to a "supposed" condition..

Rather than reject a potential benefit based on what science and social structure has indoctrinated me to believe, i choose to give the possibilities a fair chance.. rather than look through the slag for missed nuggets, i look at the mountain for new mines..

Be well..

[red5angel]

Even if it biology or bio-mechanics, that doesn't mean it is not qi.

Maybe I'm not being clear here. Qi, is attributed to alot of things, powerful techniques, killing without touching, long life, etc. However, the only thing I have ever seen any proof of is an unusal amount of phsyical control over ones body. This often allows a person to do seemingly magical feats, breaking bricks or stones, flicking needles through glass, resisting impacts from large masses, or resisting piercing type weapons. All of this can be done, there's no doubt, and it's all a matter of how hard you train to do these "tricks" There is no mystical energy that allows one to do these, just effort and time. The rest of the stuff on that list are all essentialy non-proven. All evidence so far offered up to prove that those abilities exists are always suspect at the very least.
Ladies and gentleman, if you want to call superb body control "Qi", I don't care, I just thinks it's silly that some still believe in some mystical "life force" that flows through your body and allows you to do things not proveable by science, and as of yet, not proven period.


red5angel, the proof that chi exsists is life! you are partaking in that are you not ?

Earthdragon, go back a few pages and start reading.


what more proof do you need?

WHAT?! You say proof that chi exists is life and that's all the proof I need?! What sort of statement is that? Keeeerist, atleast offer me some substance here, not that ancient wisdom, zen-like crap.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
[B] Ladies and gentleman, if you want to call superb body control "Qi", I don't care, I just thinks it's silly that some still believe in some mystical "life force" that flows through your body and allows you to do things not proveable by science, and as of yet, not proven period. I don't think anyone is saying it allows you do to things "not proveable" by science. We are suggesting it is an inherent energy necessary for life to exist. At least, that's what I'm saying. It is no more proveable than a Black Hole, which we can't prove exists except through the observing it's effect on other proveable entities. You seem to think science is infallible when your own admission is that is completely subjective as resource for defining the world in a concrete fashion.

[red5angel]

Because it is a biological function and adherent to physical laws.

ok, but you implied early on that Qi is something more but have so far refused to elaborate.




how about the documentation that demonstrates a diminutive woman moving an auto to save her child

There are two ways to address this. First that for the most part this is urban legend, most of these stories never happened. Second, that in the only case I have ever heard of something similar, the conditions were good, throw in a little adreniline and away you go. nothing magical there. I can push a car in nuetral with little effort at all, just some good body structure and correct application of strength.


clearly, the flesh, bone and muscle would not cause that effect

That's an incorrect statement. When someone mentions a feat like this, we often get pictures of a smallish woman, who desperately heaves a half ton car into the air to save her child, when in fact, it's usually something like down hill in a wind and the car is in neutral.




i am suggesting that the mind or will or spirit or whatever used an available resource to exceed the supposed limits of stress sustainable by the physical beings involved..

Both the body and the mind are capable of doing things we don't always get to see. Why is it sometimes we can do something and other times we cannot? Why is it some people can do things I cannot? there's nothing mystical about it, and it doesn't require a little understood energy to explain it.


most remarkable was the blister which formed minutes later

Another thing I have heard about but have never seen any nonprefutable proof for. A burn is a direct result of something that happens externally, and our body reacts internally. I might be willing to allow for that fact that ones mind could trick your body into believing it was burned, maybe. That still doesn't say anything but that your body is capable of reacting in ways it already knows, without the need for external impetous. Again, nothing not explainable by science.

[backbreaker]

What if I said a diamond has more potential qi ( or not potential, actual) than a peice of coal.

You have to feel the qi for yourself. There are various sensations associated with different strengths of qigong. If you don't like the word qi or the explanations of "life energy" or " animating principle" that's fine. I look at energy as vibrations. Different vibrations of different frequences but all one basic foundational vibration. I view it as the basic movemet constituting matter. I might not make sense to some people, fine

[red5angel]

I don't think anyone is saying it allows you do to things "not proveable" by science. We are suggesting it is an inherent energy necessary for life to exist. At least, that's what I'm saying. It is no more proveable than a Black Hole, which we can't prove exists except through the observing it's effect on other proveable entities.

but that's what I'm saying MK, we can observe a black hole in some way or another through it's reaction with it's environment. There has never been any proof of anything like Qi, nothing observable that hasn't been explained in another fashion.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
Both the body and the mind are capable of doing things we don't always get to see. Why is it sometimes we can do something and other times we cannot? Why is it some people can do things I cannot? there's nothing mystical about it, and it doesn't require a little understood energy to explain it. If you can't explain it, then how do you know what it doesn't take to explain it?


I might be willing to allow for that fact that ones mind could trick your body into believing it was burned, maybe. That still doesn't say anything but that your body is capable of reacting in ways it already knows, without the need for external impetous. Again, nothing not explainable by science. [/B] Hysterical pregnancy.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I offer incidents.. documented incidents.. and i even offer a personal experience.. and you refute them with suppositions..

Where you see a "glass half-empty".. i see a container with something in it.. i don't know from observation if it's "glass", the math of volume is too precise for general statements like "half".. i leave the options open for further investigation.. we will either confine our experience of life to that which we are told to expect.. or we will allow for the occasional miracle and live it without the confines of indoctrinated expectations.. like "proofs"..

Be well.. sincerely...

[red5angel]

If you can't explain it, then how do you know what it doesn't take to explain it?

I CAN explain it, no one else on this thread seems to be able to.

I don't know a whole lot about hysterical pregnancy but it seems to be a psychological condition.

[red5angel]

I offer incidents.. documented incidents

send me a link, or a resource I can do some research. I have done a little bit of research and never seen anything based in fact.
As for your personal experience, you'll have to forgive me but I have been in the martial world too long to know that some people will exaggerate or lie outright to prove a point. I'm not saying you are, but I remain skeptical. Regardless I said I could believe that something like that could have happened but it would still be explainable and probably reproduceable in the lab.
Miracles, are nothing more then those things that are, but we have not yet observed. The first lunar eclipse was a "miracle" (and observable too), now we know what it is.
If there were something there, something other then what science can explain when it comes to Qi, then I would be able to agree that although it's not explainable, it is obviously there.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel


but that's what I'm saying MK, we can observe a black hole in some way or another through it's reaction with it's environment. There has never been any proof of anything like Qi, nothing observable that hasn't been explained in another fashion. I see it in the world around me. That you do not is merely a statement of perception and focus, nothing more.

[Ralphie]

Although many people think it's BS, Kirlian photography proponents claim that they can photograph auras. There has been some research done on this to both prove and disprove it. I think if you go back and look at Christian and various Asian art, you see examples of at least partial aura representation. The theme which crosses cultures is at least interesting if not telling.

My understanding of Qi is not of amazing ability like flying, but more along the lines of being efficient, and maximizing what you naturally have. For example, having an ideal diet, and the self control to maintain it. Being physically fit. Understanding proper breathing, and maintaining an optimal level of hydration. In addition, you have a certain clarity in your mental process. That is, you are present minded, and don't drift mentally. Is Qi a physical thing like energy? It's definitely disputable. However if you do think it is, it is no different than blood or plasma. Everyone alive has it, and it has a definite flow and rhythm. Your blood's not going to give you superhuman powers, but if you take care of the things mentioned above, you're body will be more efficient. If you take care of yourself mentally, the effect will be a more efficient thought process, less stress, and thus better health.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
I don't know a whole lot about hysterical pregnancy but it seems to be a psychological condition. OK. Explain it scientifically.

[red5angel]

I see it in the world around me. That you do not is merely a statement of perception and focus, nothing more.

That's as you say, subjective. Other then "it's life" can't you offer any proof that you see it any other way? I could opt to "see" alot of things in the world, again, phlogiston is a perfect example of that, but that doesn't necessarily make it true.
I've asked anyone on this thread to just state for me what, beyond basic bio-mechanics, and now "life" is Qi to them, and so far I have gotten non-answers.


My understanding of Qi is not of amazing ability like flying, but more along the lines of being efficient. For example, having an ideal diet, and the self control to maintain it. Being physically fit. Understanding proper breathing, and maintaining an optimal level of hydration.

Ralphie, this is sort of what I am getting at. See, people are refferring to something called Qi. Most of its proponents imply that it is something, other then just good health and bio-mechanics. I'm saying that it was once viewd that way, because people didn't necessarily understand bio-mechanics, or even good health, so they came up with this mystical field of energy that provided an answer for all that.

[red5angel]

OK. Explain it scientifically.

as I stated, I do't know a whole lot about it. I'm also not a psychologist so you would have to ask one to get a good explanation of it. What little I know points to the fact that it's a psychological issue. I fight Seasonal Affective Disorder, I know it's an imbalance of chemicals in the brain, but I can't explain it to you in detail.

[EarthDragon]

master killer,
you said
"I for one don't think chi is inherent to fight training specifically. You might as well ask Michael Jordan why he doesn't understand chi."

When did I say that martial arts is only fight training? martial arts incorporates all aspects of MA
i.e qigong which is the very study of q.i

Healing and herbology is also part of MA and in order to heal you must have a useable knowledge of qi and how and where it flows.

please do not think only in the box on this subject, thank you ED

REd5angel you seem to always, in every post I have read from you disagree with what is being explained. Not sure if you do this on purpose or just find satisfaction in arguing. But you may remain narrow minded on this subject if you wish. I think we should stop trying to explain basic knowledge to those who dont posses it.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
That's as you say, subjective. Other then "it's life" can't you offer any proof that you see it any other way? I could opt to "see" alot of things in the world, again, phlogiston is a perfect example of that, but that doesn't necessarily make it true.
I've asked anyone on this thread to just state for me what, beyond basic bio-mechanics, and now "life" is Qi to them, and so far I have gotten non-answers. I don't know what you want. Really, all I can do is hold up a rock and say I see a rock. If you see something else, I can't help that. When I see life, I see something behind it. If you don't, I can't change that.

[backbreaker]

There seems to me to be a macrocosm and microcosm which the human ( and animals) body stands between. That's just how I see it. Michael Jordon goes to show you don't have to understand the theory of qi to posses a good amount and quality.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
When did I say that martial arts is only fight training? martial arts incorporates all aspects of MA
i.e qigong which is the very study of q.i

Healing and herbology is also part of MA and in order to heal you must have a useable knowledge of qi and how and where it flows.

please do not think only in the box on this subject, thank you ED
Well, you didn't say that. But not everyone believes that you have to study the I-Ching in order to learn to fight. You can certainly learn martial arts without all the other stuff and still be an effective fighter. It doesn't make it any less martial.

[red5angel]

I think we should stop trying to explain basic knowledge to those who dont posses it.

Earth dragon, work on freeing your mind and we'll talk ;)


MK, right now mostly what I am asking to anyone who believes in Qi, what is it, other then bio-mechanics? Everyone seems to agree that at the bottom there is bio-mchanics, so why not just call it that?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel

MK, right now mostly what I am asking to anyone who believes in Qi, what is it, other then bio-mechanics? Everyone seems to agree that at the bottom there is bio-mchanics, so why not just call it that? Because I don't think biomechanics is the animating force in all life. So why would I call it that?

[red5angel]

ok, so you believe that beyond bio-mechanics, that it is the animating force in life, sort of like "soul"? what is it that makes you feel this way?

[backbreaker]

I was told by my qigong teacher that when his master in Singapore looks at a pencil, he sees the original tree. :eek:

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
ok, so you believe that beyond bio-mechanics, that it is the animating force in life, sort of like "soul"? what is it that makes you feel this way? Not soul, per se. If you have a cup of tea and you spill it, the tea on the table is still tea even though it's not in the cup anymore...and if you pour that tea into another cup...it's still tea....

What makes me think this? Years of research, study, and personal introspection. Even when I thought I was atheist, there was a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that I was wrong. It's the only conclusion I have found that doesn't leave me doubting my own convictions. I feel correct, and that's about as well as I can explain it.

[red5angel]

I'm going to assume you mean #2 wood and not mechanical ;)
I'm also going to assume that what he means is that he is mindful of tha fact that that wooden pencil was once a living tree.

[red5angel]

so, MK, you're taking it on faith for the most part?

[backbreaker]

;)

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
so, MK, you're taking it on faith for the most part? No...on personal experience. I know what I feel, and I know what I have experienced. Like I said, I don't believe in paranormal physical feats and chi blasts, but experience leads me to think there is more to my existence than the sum of my measurable parts.

[red5angel]

well, I guess it's gone as far as it can go then. Discussions of faith often turn insulting and I don't want to head down that path. I have no issue with one who has faith in their beliefs.

[SPJ]

Some pieces of Chinese history

Before modern sciences know about O2, and ATP, Chinese postulated Qi exists in everything.

You need to breathe in O2 (Qi). Qi is stored in navel area (Dan Tien). It travels from the internal organs to the distal limbs and back along the acupuncture meridians. Blood (Xie) is from digestion of food and travels in blood vessel. If a person is out of breath (Qi) and low in blood, death is imminent.

For Wushu purpose, Qi Gong level 1 is breathing exercise. Ultimately four breaths a min. If your breathing is wrong, you injure yourself, and you may not last long in fight. You are out of breath. Breathing is important for swimming and marathon, etc. Know your breathing, if you want to fight.

Level 2 Qi Gong, you sit with your legs crossed and eyes closed, focus on your breathing and heartbeat, try to feels the Qi flowing. You first practice to sink it down to Dang Tien and then elevate it up to Bai Hwei (Hundreds Union acupuncture point) on top of your head. Then practice to move your Qi to your distal limbs without physically move the muscles.

Level 3 Qi Gong, figure it out yourself.

How to use Qi to fight, soft and hard Qi gong. Every movement of muscles or physical force is useless. Higher level of Wushu is about fighting with Qi. For example, you try to push my chest as hard as you can, we both are not moving. Are we tensing muscle and cancelling each other's force out, or we are mobiling Qi against each other. Whoever is out of breath or Qi first is lost.

Yin Yang Tai Ji is Daoists' idea about nature and universe. They are more than 3000 years old.
Zhang San Fong, the forefather of Wu Dang. He proposed Tai Ji and internal system (Nei Jia) vs external (Wai Jia). It is a concept. Shaolin is good at fast punching and kicking. If we use a small force to deal with the big one. We yield and avoid the spear head. We move, we join and redirect. We on and on. You practice slow movements and detect minute changes. You use small changes to make big difference, on and on,

These concepts are incorporated into Tai Ji Quan by Chen's family.

As a martial artist, you study both. Nei Wai Jien Show.


If you receive acupressure or acupuncture treatments, you do not need to know the existence of Qi or not. American Medical Association approved acupuncture as a medical treatment. There are Qi Gong research institutes in all G-7 countries. They are milion's people practice Tai Ji Qi Gong for health. Being a martiat artist, please study more on applications of Qi for fighting.

Have a just Qi (Zhen Qi, Yi Qi). Do not anger with Qi from spleen (Pi Qi). The state of California write Feng Shui (how aquire Qi and store Qi in home and office) into building codes.

Do you guys still want to argue about Qi, when AMA and state government and milion's people say otherwise.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

There comes a point where we agree to disagree.. the sum of one person's experiences is not the same as the sum of another person's experiences.. and each has nothing but their experiences for reference points.. the only variable in the equation is the willingness to consider another perspective, some will and some wont..


MK, right now mostly what I am asking to anyone who believes in Qi, what is it, other then bio-mechanics? Everyone seems to agree that at the bottom there is bio-mchanics, so why not just call it that?

Of course it's easy to stop there, "bio-mechanics".. but, what is the organizing principle that directs this process.. bio-mechanics may produce a certain aspect(s) of a basic energy/force.. but, what energy/force powers the bio-mechanical process? It seems that some people are adverse to admitting that there may be something beyond their scope of understanding, something that may escape the omnipotent abilities of science to explain.. but, history is littered with the discarded carcasses of scoffed at theories that matured into common knowledge..

It is possible Qi defies a scientific explanation because science has yet to develop sufficiently sophisticated measuring devices.. some people are content to let science dictate their experiences, others let their experiences guide science.. remember, the measurement is not that which it represents, faith in the measurement is misplaced.. to discount a valid experience because it can't be fit into a set of standards is self-defeating..

I don't suggest Qi is mystical, just not "currently" measurable.. i am not willing to let science dictate my experiences based on its ability (or lack thereof) to measure that experience.. someone suggested that people embellish their experiences to rationalize their beliefs..


As for your personal experience, you'll have to forgive me but I have been in the martial world too long to know that some people will exaggerate or lie outright to prove a point. I'm not saying you are, but I remain skeptical.

You are forgiven.. just as i must be forgiven for my inability to comprehend such confining notions as "proof" to validate my experiences.. " i remain skeptical", indeed.. you "remain".. others move on... things are what they are, neither science nor faith accurately describes what they "are".. the most accurate account is the experience itself, beyond that it is all abstractions..

Now, suppose we said "energy" insted of Qi.. an equally nebulous concept.. suppose that Taiji players espoused the use of "energy" to power their devastating techniques.. would that suffice as a valid notion.. i sense that we ultimately end up here, arguing over translations of words.. while agreeing at some level there are processes that we don't yet fully understand but favor their effects.. call it energy, Chi, Qi or whatever.. the word or measurement is not nearly as important as the experience..

As much as i enjoy these dialogues, i am going to try to refrain from further posts here.. i may not be successful.. but, i hope we just agree to disagree.. i have no need to convert anyone's beliefs, but i do hope to clearly state my own beliefs for whatever benefit can be derived.. sometimes the benefit is nothing more than to strengthen someone's opposing beliefs, so be it...

Be well...

[red5angel]

Before modern sciences know about O2, and ATP, Chinese postulated Qi exists in everything.

exactly! By the way SPJ, Chiropractics has also been approved in america but that doesn't make it legit. The approval of acupuncture doesn't prove the existance of Qi.




but, what energy/force powers the bio-mechanical process?

uh chemistry and biology.




It seems that some people are adverse to admitting that there may be something beyond their scope of understanding, something that may escape the omnipotent abilities of science to explain.

Taichibob, you seem fixated on this idea that because I don't believe in Qi, I am just somehow afraid of something I don't understand and science can't explain. The issue, is that everything I have seen claimed as a product of Qi, HAS been explained through science. The rest that is claimed has Qi has not been evidenced at all. I've never seen anything to convince me that there is anything like Qi, beyond the biomechanical uses all ready explained by science. Therefore the issue is not that I am seeing something and don't understand it, but that I am not seeing it and don't understand why people believe in it.


I don't suggest Qi is mystical, just not "currently" measurable..

Then how do you personally know it exists? If it's not measurable, you would have felt no effect and so are going strictly on faith.

I'm also going to be honest here for a second taichibob and say I find tha accusation that I am closed minded and static just because I don't share in similar beliefs as you. I find that attitude in and of itself close minded and a little egotistical. I explore the world around us all the time, if I were close minded I wouldn't be pursuing this conversation at the moment. I know there are things out there we can't explain, but those things are also observable, or atleast their effects are observable if not the direct cause. Now let's get off the high horse and come back down to a manageable level and understand that we don't have to agree to be open minded.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
exactly! By the way SPJ, Chiropractics has also been approved in america but that doesn't make it legit. The approval of acupuncture doesn't prove the existance of Qi. You ever been to a chiropractor? Mine fixed a nagging knee tendonitis problem my physician couldn't, and keeps me from getting headaches I've suffered from since I was 12, which a neurologist told me I'd have to live with. That's legit enough for me.

[EarthDragon]

red5angel,
You said free my mind? I'M BUDDHIST! my mind cannot be any more free................

[kungfu cowboy]

Chiropractic arts are just a socially professional acceptable form of manlove.

[Vash]

Chiropractics pwn all over most other medical treatments. Fixed headaches, muscle cramps that lasted months, and a nice feeling of "aahhh."

KFCB:

You have manlove on the brain today.

Just thought you'd like to know.

[MasterKiller]

Chiropractics are all about biomechanics.

[Vash]

Naw, man, it's the qi. The body has nothing to do with the vertebral movement.

Duh.

[red5angel]

Earthdragon, try harder.

MK - I'm not saying that chirpractics doesn't have it's place, although it seems good stories and bad stories abound about them. They aren't medical doctors for the most part but somehow get to practice medical science professionally. That's my beef with it for the most part.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting acupuncture either, hell I had some in high school that helped me get rid of shin splints, I'm just saying that acupuncture in no way proves the existance of Qi, as taichibob implies it does. Oh I understand the principles and ideas behind it, and how it relates to the ideas of Qi, but again, probably a misunderstanding by the eastern mind, like SPJ pointed out about O2, they had no idea what that was, so Qi existed for a time ;)

[Vash]

I've been having acupuncture done on my chest for about the past two months. I've noticed a hooj difference in how it seems to be healing.

The way it was explained to me, the needles stimulate blood and lymphatic flow, or something or other. In any event, it's helped. There was a big difference on my last body-scan thing (not an xray, not an MRI, the other thing).

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Oh well, so much for refraining from posting..


Therefore the issue is not that I am seeing something and don't understand it, but that I am not seeing it and don't understand why people believe in it.

So, if "you" don't see it, is it your assertion that it is invalid?

If you don't understand the perspectives of others' does that invalidate their perspective?


Then how do you personally know it exists? If it's not measurable, you would have felt no effect and so are going strictly on faith.

Science and its tools of measurement are a product of human experience.. it stands to reason that the builder of the tools has experience greater than the tools it creates.. One may experience Love, hate, insight, intuition, curiosity, compassion, etc... and not be able to measure it, does it invalidate the experience? Personally, i am an amateur student of physics and find too much correlation between the known and unknown to reasonably postulate that there exists nothing other than that which can be currently measured.. that would suppose that we have measured it ALL... your statement supposes that i cannot have a physical experience that is not quantifiable, i respectfully disagree..


I'm also going to be honest here for a second taichibob and say I find tha accusation that I am closed minded and static just because I don't share in similar beliefs as you. I find that attitude in and of itself close minded and a little egotistical. I explore the world around us all the time, if I were close minded I wouldn't be pursuing this conversation at the moment. I know there are things out there we can't explain, but those things are also observable, or atleast their effects are observable if not the direct cause. Now let's get off the high horse and come back down to a manageable level and understand that we don't have to agree to be open minded.

If i implied that you are closed minded i was in error.. of course you are open minded, you converse with the likes of me.. but, i do assert that blind faith in the merits of science and its tools to define the human experience is contrary to reason and logic.. as for a "high horse", the assumption that "I know there are things out there we can't explain, but those things are also observable, or atleast their effects are observable if not the direct cause", implies that YOU must be able to observe the unexplainable or its effects to make it a valid candidate for "things out there we can't explain".. so, i think we both might want to tie up our horses up and shuffle on over to the saloon.. What is unexplainable is that throughout history and currently there are millions of people that have experiences that they attribute to "Qi" and a scientific definition of "Qi" eludes us.. the lack of a definition doesn't invalidate those experiences, with luck it will incite further investigation.. i would not care to deprive myself of some benefit to my life simply because i can't currently understand it, eventhough my experience suggests that it is there.......

Be well.. (and, i do enjoy the dialogue...)

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
MK - I'm not saying that chirpractics doesn't have it's place, although it seems good stories and bad stories abound about them. They aren't medical doctors for the most part but somehow get to practice medical science professionally. That's my beef with it for the most part. Medical science? You keep throwing that around, but what does it mean, exactly?

I would say Western medical science has created a culture of over-medicated, hypochondriacs; coupled with Western psychology that has created a culture of vicitimization and denial of responsibility....boy, we sure are advanced!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

As a side note: i am willing to admit that Qi may simply be a description of the effects of various known systems that when trained properly and combined in an intended effect causes certain unexplainable results.. results that may manifest based solely on the intention which could elude those that have no such intention...

Anyhow, just a random thought i wanted to share.. Be well..

[red5angel]

So, if "you" don't see it, is it your assertion that it is invalid?

That's purely dependant on context. In this case yes, I have done some research into Qi and found it lacking, to my results have pointed towards results accomplished biomechanically. In essence, I have never seen anything to convince me it isn't something else.


If you don't understand the perspectives of others' does that invalidate their perspective?

No, but first this goes both ways, you have continously dismissed my perspectve because it doesn't align with yours. Second, perspectives are different with each person, and they can change, hence the reason I have asked for others personal accounts and why they believe in Qi. To get their perspective.



your statement supposes that i cannot have a physical experience that is not quantifiable, i respectfully disagree..

again, context. Every experience you have can be quantified in some way or another. You may not have the ability to do that on your own, and as you have pointed out, we may not be able to do that yet, however, the experience itself has to happen. You can't experience something but not experience it. Something convinces you that Qi exists, something tangible in some form or another.


i do assert that blind faith in the merits of science and its tools to define the human experience is contrary to reason and logic.

I may have been giving off the wrong idea. I don't have "blind faith" in science. On the contrary, unless I get a sound theory or preferably some evidence, then I have a hard time believing anything. That doesn't mean those truths don't change, it turned out the sky was round afterall. It also doesn't mean that science can explain everything right away
My point is not that science is always right, it's not, however, if you have an effect, and it can easily be explained through science accurately, then why fall back on mysticism. I understand you don't believe it is mysticism but it falls well within that domain to me when you say something to the affect of, it is what sustains life. You have this belief that there needs to be some unseen energy through which life exists, I believe that life just does exists, and it exists off the principles that science has uncovered, It's not magical it just is.


the lack of a definition doesn't invalidate those experiences

True. Sometime in the forties, people began too see UFO's by the dozens. Shortly before that there were few sightings, and contrary to popular belief with some who are interested in the occult, next to none before the 20's. Psychologically, we as human beings have a habit of picking up on strong emotions and letting that sometimes affect us. It's how cults get started. I've been to more then a few kungfu/qigong workshops where everyone get's all touchy feely about what they are feeling, and they, atleast some of them really believe they are feeling something. But the moment they walk away, that starts to fade and eventually for most, it disappears. Human beings in groups are funny creatures.


Medical science? You keep throwing that around, but what does it mean, exactly?

The study of the way (generally speaking) the human body operates, how it fails, and how to get it to stop failing. By actively studying the body and the human condition, and as technology and our understanding has advanced that has become much easier, we can learn those things. Whether you like western medicine or not, we know w hell of a lot more about the body and how to fix it or even break it, then they did 100 or 1000 yrs ago.

[Gangsterfist]

It seems to me that medicine has never been an exact science. The methods of healing have changed so much over the centuries and continue to change. Drugs have been recalled countless times after being thoroughly tested. Its just the chaos factor with human beings.

Qi, in my view, can be viewed as energy, blood flow, and circulation. I recently went to a Qigong seminar by my Sigung. He explained to us that tension is the bodies worst enemy. While practicing qigong at first you will feel stiffness and tension when you meditate. That is your body telling you something. Its telling you, that you have too much tension in that area. Too much tension decreases blood flow and circulation and then makes it harder for that part of the body, or parts after that, to communicate with your brain.

For example if you get an injury on your hand but have lots of shoulder and neck tension, then your hand cannot communicate as well as it could with your brain. Freeing up that tension allows better blood flow and circulation, thus allowing better communication from your body to your brain. If you brain can communicate with your body better it will react better to injury and illness.

That is how it was explained to me on a very basic level. I am sure there are much more advanced levels, but I am not sure what they are since I am still learning.

[red5angel]

As a side note: i am willing to admit that Qi may simply be a description of the effects of various known systems that when trained properly and combined in an intended effect causes certain unexplainable results


That's generally what I'm saying, and it seems atleast where feats or tricks in the martial arts are concerned, we all seem to mostly agree that a good portion of that is just biomechanics. what I am saying is that since I have not personally seen any evidence of anything beyond that, I believe that the chinese gave those initial biomechanical principiles a magical quality and attributes that go beyond the martial arts, longevity, and all the rest, that are somehwat a function of biology anyway, and somewhat make believe in general. The problem is that while we can show that say, a 1" punch is all body mechanics, come people believe that there is still some mystical energy involved in that equation, and that it goes beyond that to extending your life, instead of good living habits, makes you see things you normally wouldn't, and allows you to touch and even kill someone without ever physically coming into contact.

[red5angel]

ah, gangsterfist, you gave me a good example so let me run with it and see what I can do.



Qi, in my view, can be viewed as energy, blood flow, and circulation.

What do you mean Energy? I would argue that Qi is just good health practices and body control




While practicing qigong at first you will feel stiffness and tension when you meditate. That is your body telling you something. Its telling you, that you have too much tension in that area. Too much tension decreases blood flow and circulation and then makes it harder for that part of the body, or parts after that, to communicate with your brain.

That's basic biomechanics, nothng mystical about it and it doesn't require some mysterious energy to explain. When you sit wrong your leg goes numb because blood flow has been cut off.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
The study of the way (generally speaking) the human body operates, how it fails, and how to get it to stop failing. By actively studying the body and the human condition, and as technology and our understanding has advanced that has become much easier, we can learn those things. So, how does chiropractic not fall into that category? Because you don't need a PhD to practice it?


Whether you like western medicine or not, we know w hell of a lot more about the body and how to fix it or even break it, then they did 100 or 1000 yrs ago.
I think Western medicine is a good thing, but I also see the fallacy in relying on it to explain away everything, especially when you generally need to get at least two doctors opinions before you do something major. Science is not exact, and results can be subjective. Different people react to medicine in completely different ways, different procedures work to varying degrees on different people, or not at all.

Hell, psychology can affect the way the body reacts just as well as any medicine. Placebo effect is a common occurance. So, if the mind can make the body heal itself just because it thinks it took a medicine, what's the proof that the miracle medicine itself is always responsible? And how does the mind fix physical problems in the body, anyway?

[red5angel]

So, how does chiropractic not fall into that category? Because you don't need a PhD to practice it?

I would rather someone who works on my body have as much of a medical background as possible. doctors have to study that long because the body is complicated.

[kungfu cowboy]

If there was any money in the placebo effect, we would probably know sooner than later. Very cool thing, the placebo effect. Amazing.

[red5angel]

there is cowboy, look at all the fat pills you can get now a days off the shelves or through infomercials, not to mention all the other products that work for some people. Sometimes all you need is a reason to believe.

[kungfu cowboy]

It would be cool to understand it in mechanistic detail, and teach it to be used at will.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel


I would rather someone who works on my body have as much of a medical background as possible. doctors have to study that long because the body is complicated. They're just manipulating joints, not taking out your kidney. :D

At any rate, I'll tell you more detail about my experience with modern science.


Issue 1
I've had headaches since I was about 12. My optomotrists suggested I needed glasses and that I was getting headaches from squinting. I did need the glasses, but the headaches kept coming. When I was 19, my dentist told me I was getting headaches because my bottom jaw doesn't quite align with my top one, which was causing my jaw muscles to tighten, which caused my neck to tighten, causing tension headaches. I started wearing a retainer to correct the jaw alignment, which didn't stop the headaches either. When I was 21, a neourologist told me I had arthritis in my vertebra, and put me on a lifetime supply of Cataflam (an anti-inflammatory). It worked to a degree, and I was just happy the headaches were were lessened.

Issue 2
When I was 19, I started getting severe adominable pain. It happened about once every 3 months, and would keep me in bed for a week at a time. My physician (not the same as above) told me I had an ulcer, and put me on Zantac.

After a year of taking medicine that didn't work, my appendix burst one night. Of course, I didn't know my appendix burst because I was so used to having stomach pain by then that I just figured I was having another "ulcer" relapse. So, I waited 4 days to go to the hospital, at which time I had to have emergency surgery that laid me up for 4 months. I have a huge scar across my stomach (about 13 inches) to show for it.

Issue 3
I had pretty bad tendonitis in my right leg at one point, so bad, in fact, that my physician told me the only solution was to lay off kung fu, He said I was getting too old (at 29) and that my body was just responding to the intensity of my workouts (I was able to practice 15+ hours a week at that time). He gave me some anti-inflammatories and sent me home.

Around the same time, I started going to a chiropractor because someone suggested I might be able to increase hip flexibility somewhat with some exercises. I told the chiropractor about my knees, my headaches, etc...First, he took me off Cataflam because you are only supposed to take it for 2 years. After 2 years, you can start to damage you kidneys...Gee, my neurologist never told me that, and always phoned in prescriptions when I needed a refill. Not only that, but he took x-rays and saw no signs of arthritis.

Second, he noticed I was putting too much weight on the outside of my foot when I walked, which threw my legs and hip out of proper alignment. He adjusted my hips after a few treatments, and after consciously monitoring how I distributed my weight, the tendonitis went away. Not only that, but with regular spinal adjustments, I don't get headaches. Ever. No medication required.

So, my experience has been that accredited doctors don't always know what the fizzuck they are talking about. They tend to treat the symptom and not the problem. In my experience, at least.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
there is cowboy, look at all the fat pills you can get now a days off the shelves or through infomercials, not to mention all the other products that work for some people. Sometimes all you need is a reason to believe. How do you measure "believing"? What instrument do you use?

All I'm saying is, the mind is a powerful thing. It can affect your body in very, very powerful ways. Doctors often say someone is "ready to die" or "not ready to die." Why would being "ready" prevent the machine from stopping? What's the physical cause?

I believe the power of your intent is the reason. I call that Qi...you can call it whatever you want. It's still there, it's unmeasuable, and semantics doesn't change it's influence.

[red5angel]

How do you measure "believing"? What instrument do you use?


sometimes measuring isn't exact, it's what I was trying to get across to taichibob. If you feel something, you can "measure" it. I feel "really" irritated today, or more sad then I felt yesterday, that's measuring it, just not being exact. the brain i syour measuring tool.




Doctors often say someone is "ready to die" or "not ready to die."

psychological tricks to help us feel better about death.


I believe the power of your intent is the reason.

What is in your mind reasonable to expect your intent to be able to do?

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by red5angel
ah, gangsterfist, you gave me a good example so let me run with it and see what I can do.

What do you mean Energy? I would argue that Qi is just good health practices and body control

That's basic biomechanics, nothng mystical about it and it doesn't require some mysterious energy to explain. When you sit wrong your leg goes numb because blood flow has been cut off.

It can be looked at as energy in several ways. Blood flowing through your body carries oxygen. There is motion and movement, that is a form of energy. When you put your whole body behind a strike you can feel it penetrate and not really do any surface damage. You are making your body act like a transmission and transmitting energy in a direct motion that immediately effects its target. Also, its a form of thermal energy, it warms the body. I have sweated my butt off doing qigong. At higher levels you can control the heat with your mind and focus it at certain points. There is also a magnetic field around and through the body. Rub your hands together (like Mr. Miagi ((sp?)) ) for about thirty seconds or so then then slowly move them apart back and forth real slowly. It should feel like there is a rubber band strung across both hands and you are expanding and contracting it. Then you can rotate your hands in circles real close to each other. You should feel some kind of magnetic energy and wants to pull your rotating hand around the next rotation.

These have just been my experiences and I have been exposed to a little of qigong here and there. I mainly do it in my stretching routine, but have met a few practitioners that really know it, and have had the chance to be exposed to it.

You can call biothermal energy, chi, pontiental energy, whatever. I myself am not 100% sure what to call it, I can just feel something but not sure what to call it yet.

I will let you all know once I find out, if I ever find out.

[red5angel]

I will let you all know once I find out, if I ever find out.


fair enough! ;) :D

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
sometimes measuring isn't exact, it's what I was trying to get across to taichibob. If you feel something, you can "measure" it. I feel "really" irritated today, or more sad then I felt yesterday, that's measuring it, just not being exact. the brain i syour measuring tool.If I feel a connection to all life, who are you to say I don't? Is not my brain the measuring tool for my own experience?


psychological tricks to help us feel better about death.You said people just need a reason to believe. How does that belief affect the machine? How can thinking you are pregnant force your body to create a fake pregnance, including labor pains? Or cause symptoms of medicine to manifest when a sugar pill was taken instead?


What is in your mind reasonable to expect your intent to be able to do? You'll need to rephrase that one. I'm not sure what you're saying.

[red5angel]

If I feel a connection to all life, who are you to say I don't? Is not my brain the measuring tool for my own experience?

It's not my place, unless we're discussing it and I don't agrre with you :)
What is this connection to life you feel? How do you kow it's there and not just in your head?




You said people just need a reason to believe. How does that belief affect the machine?

I blieve it can affect your body because when your body reacts to outside stimulus, you still have an internal response. Those things can be recorded, by genes, or by experience. It's not hard to understand that if your body is capable of reacting to stimulus in a certain way, it could also create those reactions on it's own.

You call "intent" Qi, what is this intent? what can it do that it can be called Qi?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
[B] How do you kow it's there and not just in your head?If the brain is a measuring device, then isn't 'being in your head' a measurable phenomenon? Schizophrenic brain patterns are different from normal people, so even their hallucinations are measureable.


I blieve it can affect your body because when your body reacts to outside stimulus, you still have an internal response. Those things can be recorded, by genes, or by experience. It's not hard to understand that if your body is capable of reacting to stimulus in a certain way, it could also create those reactions on it's own.If it's not hard to understand, then I'd like to see a complete explanation of it from a Western perspective.

This is where you say "Just because we can't measure it now doesn't mean it's not true."

And then I say, "That's what I've been saying all along...."


You call "intent" Qi, what is this intent? what can it do that it can be called Qi? It can affect the machine.

[red5angel]

If the brain is a measuring device, then isn't 'being in your head' a measurable phenomenon? Schizophrenic brain patterns are different from normal people, so even their hallucinations are measureable.

Yes but they have no substantial impact externally, meaning that while you might see a little blue man sitting on your buddies shoulder telling you to kill him, the little blue man does not exist. Your brain has created an illusion.



If it's not hard to understand, then I'd like to see a complete explanation of it from a Western perspective.

At the present moment I can't offer you any. I'm not an expert in the field and so have no source to offer, but I can see if I can dig some up.


This is where you say "Just because we can't measure it now doesn't mean it's not true."

LOL! touche! But I tihnk it can be measured to some degree or another, or atleast scientifically shown to be a direct cause and effect relationship. Because your mind knows how to react to a burn, using taichibob's example, it can create the illusion that you have been burned and therefore respond to it.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Ah ha! i knew it, we can agree at some level..


The problem is that while we can show that say, a 1" punch is all body mechanics, come people believe that there is still some mystical energy involved in that equation, and that it goes beyond that to extending your life, instead of good living habits, makes you see things you normally wouldn't, and allows you to touch and even kill someone without ever physically coming into contact.

While i too remain skeptical of the remote death touch, i still challenge "Masters" to demonstrate a less lethal version of this phenomenon on me instead of their willing students.. no takers so far.. i also leave room for the possibility.. physics leaves room for the possibility..

I "believe" that the Universe is comprised of a basic "fabric", call it energy.. that that energy behaves in a "universe" of ways.. we may not be functionally aware of all the ways that energy acts, yet we may sense it, feel it, use it.. heck, it might even extend or enhance our "life experience"..

I think i see one of our communication problems.. i accept "Qi" as just another word for energy and largely agree with the analogy..
I believe that the chinese gave those initial biomechanical principiles a magical quality and attributes that go beyond the martial arts, longevity, and all the rest .. My perspective of energy (Qi) is mainly from a particle physics view.. (Heisenberg, Schroedinger, Geofrey Cheong, Bohm, Hawking, etc...).. where it is largely believed that the observer exerts control over observation according to that which they hold to be "true"..

Not to diviate too far off topic, this all comes back to the "power of Taiji".. that we will train and demonstrate our understanding of Taiji according to the strength of our beliefs.. even though they may differ, they may also each be appropriate..

Anyhow, Be well...

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
LOL! touche! But I tihnk it can be measured to some degree or another, or atleast scientifically shown to be a direct cause and effect relationship. Science can't measure someone's ability or willingness to believe. They can say, he believed this, and this happened, but they can't say exactly why it occured, or to what degree you have to believe something to get the effect. There is something going on there besides chemical A reacting with chemical B. The belief may trigger the reaction, but you can't measure the power of the orginal intent to believe, or tell me exactly how an idea can manifest changes in physical form.

Don't get me wrong....tt's all bilology, but there is more to biology than we currently understand.

[EarthDragon]

Explain and measure wind without the trees blowing , you cant see it but it does exsist and of course you can feel it, though it needs a device to be detected. as with tepmerature and germs.......... before the microscope was invented if you told red5angel that they exsist he would deny it based on lack of proof.
This is the old "world was flat" narrow mined mentality which is what science is based on.
Funny thing is ALL science is a best guess!!!!!!!!!!!! ask any scientist or proffessor they all agree their theory and facts are based on guessing!!!!!!!!

[Vash]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
Explain and measure wind without the trees blowing , you cant see it but it does exsist and of course you can feel it, though it needs a device to be detected. as with tepmerature and germs.......... before the microscope was invented if you told red5angel that they exsist he would deny it based on lack of proof.
This is the old "world was flat" narrow mined mentality which is what science is based on.
Funny thing is ALL science is a best guess!!!!!!!!!!!! ask any scientist or proffessor they all agree their theory and facts are based on guessing!!!!!!!!

If the wind has nothing to blow against, nothing to affect, then what is the wind? I've always considered it an effect of moving air molecules. Not so much a thing, but a result of a thing.
In that context, that's what I would call "qi."

[norther practitioner]

Um, well, wind is a bad example, because we can simulate it with other substances.... like any compressible fluid, which air is.

On another note, science isn't a best guess in a lot of cases. Science is however subject in many areas to assumptions, which if not proven by the end of it, then we have theory, if we prove all of are assumptions are correct, and our original hypothesis, then we have what we call a law, guessing is something totally different, we can and do make estimates, which in a way is a guess, but usually much more educated.

[Kaitain(UK)]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1176808,00.html

Might be of interest to some of you....

I want to take this back a bit to the two required examples from each side:
"I give you all the physical components of a human body, and you make it live"
vs
"I give you all the components of an 80 storey building, and you build it"

The difference is, I can go find a building company and they will build said 80 storey building. I'm unaware of Frankenstein Inc - hence I can't go and get someone else to make that body live.

Science cannot explain or replicate what it is that makes things live - does that refute the fact that we are alive? There is something that causes our cells to replicate, and also to know when to stop replicating (last I heard, science still couldn't explain why our skin stops growing when a cut is healed).

Certainly I believe that a lot of 'feats' that are ascribed to Qi are purely the result of highly trained physical and mental skills. That doesn't refute the existence of Qi - which is after all a label applied to a process which we might call 'Life'.

[red5angel]

before the microscope was invented if you told red5angel that they exsist he would deny it based on lack of proof.

germs have an outised effect on the world, even though you can't see them, they affect the environment around them, therefore, even if I didn't know they existed, if someone were to theorize that sickness was caused by germs, I could roll with it. There is no proof of Qi, never has been. Nice try though, really.
By the way ED, theory is best guess, some scientific facts start out as best guess, but usually because something observable stimulates it. That was another good try.





The difference is, I can go find a building company and they will build said 80 storey building. I'm unaware of Frankenstein Inc

You missed the point. I'm not comparing the fact that you could build a building with the help of a building company, I'm pointing out that just because one cannot do something, they might be able to do somethig, say, by calling a building company ;) I could create life through mating. You have a blue print, for a building, you have DNA for life. You have cells for creating living things, you have bricks, and steel for creating buildings.



Science cannot explain or replicate what it is that makes things live - does that refute the fact that we are alive? There is something that causes our cells to replicate, and also to know when to stop replicating (last I heard, science still couldn't explain why our skin stops growing when a cut is healed).


psssst, I'm going to give you a hint, it starts with D and ends in NA.


Guys and gals, I'm not buying the Qi is life thing. I'm not talking about that at all., If you want to believe in a soul for all living things whether it's one or seperate for each, ok, I don't. Im certainly not going to buy into the fact that life needs some energy other then what it has observably to survive, science can explain it enough to understand how it grows, thrives and is even created. This whole life is Qi thing has been repeated enough so let's get awya from that. If that's all Qi is to you, then great, we could debate the idea of souls as well. I'm talking about all the rest.

[EarthDragon]

red5angel
you said.................. germs have an outised effect on the world, even though you can't see them, they affect the environment around them, therefore, even if I didn't know they existed, if someone were to theorize that sickness was caused by germs, I could roll with it. There is no proof of Qi, never has been. Nice try though, really.

LOL...........So let me get this straight if you didnt know germs exsisted but theorized that they cause sickness you could roll with it?
But according to you there is no proof of Qi? not even theorized eh? if there is no such thing as Qi why are you calling it Qi? and why is this disscussion taking place? according to you it does not exsist, therfore why attach a name to something that doesnt exsist?
PS when people are trying to explain something to you for your benefiet you shouldnt be sarcastic but more open minded.

Just because you have not seen or experienced things in your life does not mean they dont exsist.

[red5angel]

But according to you there is no proof of Qi?

That's the key, right there. None whatsoever. That's what this whole conversation has been about.


PS when people are trying to explain something to you for your benefiet you shouldnt be sarcastic but more open minded.

I'm going to give you two pieces of advice, possibly 3 first, follow your own directions, second, pay attention, your last sentence in your last post shows me you haven't been reading a whole lot of this thread. Third, read the thread, thoroughly, before trying to formulate comments so we dont' have to back track about 3 or 4 pages to explain thinsg that have already been discussed a few times.

[Gangsterfist]

May I interject just one moment in this discussion bout chi (qi). The thing is no one has proved or DISPROVED its existance. The fact that the human body is still a mystery to us no one can definately come out say stuff does and does not exist.

One example in peticular that comes to mind is about women's bodies. They just found out that women actually produce more eggs in their reproductive organs over their lifespan. Before this discovery it was thought that they were given a set number of eggs, and when it ran out it ran out. We thought this way for years and years and taught it in universities. Now, recently we realize we were totally wrong. This proves one thing. That we do not know anything that is absolute about the human body.

Another example is the mites in our eye lashes. We discovered them some years ago, but till this day do not know their purpose. The naked eye cannot see them at all, but we can see them under a microscope. Why are they there? Nobody knows.

Why do we have an appendix? It was theorized we used it eons ago before we evolved and we no longer need it. However, it is still in theory and we cannot prove anything 100%.

So, in conclusion it is safe to say Qi may exist. What the chinese orginally thought chi to be, could be related to good circulation, healthy blood, natural energy from the body (endorphines etc), and so on. Arguing that it does not exist when no one has proved or disproved its existance is pointless. For all we know it could be bio thermal energy put off by the body, which infact humans do have that. The human body is pretty much a biological machine that we do not fully understand yet. We have many great ideas about it, but have always seemed to prove ourselves wrong after more and more studies. Maybe we are so randomly chaotic that each person is so different that we will never know some things. Perhaps we are not meant to know.

Just some thoughts...

[Kaitain(UK)]

Red5 - look up the healing thing - noone knows how it actually _works_ i.e. no discernible signal is sent, so how do the cells all know they've finished?. I should have clarified originally - apologies.

You saying "DNA" is the same as me saying "Qi" (I'm not saying Qi has anything to do with the cells stopping replication btw - might be for all I know). We both believe it works, but as to the how - can you explain it? Explain how two cells join and create a completely new DNA structure that is then replicated and replicated into a living being - how does that spark happen? What is it? Why can't we do it?

You're missing the point re the building vs the body - the building is a completely quantifiable task. The living being is not - you cannot explain with current science what it is that makes something live.

You could take "Qi" as meaning "Insert explanation here, but in the meantime we will give it an abstract term called 'Qi'"

I'm all for scientific explanation - but in the absence of a scientific explanation I shall stick with my abstract term of "Qi". It's no better or worse than saying "something to do with biomechanics".

I appreciate your perspective in this - and I also respect your line of questioning as it has caused me to question how I perceive things. I think you're also doing admirably in the face of numerous opposition - try not to take it personally :)

Paul

[SPJ]

Qi is used to mean many things in Chinese. O2, Air, true character of a person, very essence of things, the ambiance, on and on. Something that exists and may permeate and move freely.

Tsai Qi, Aquire O2 or air. You practcie to inhale and move your hands close to you or upward or pull. You then exhale and push forward or downward. Do them slowly. This is basic Wushu Qi Gong exercise. Eight segment silk (Ba Duan Jin), Yi Jing Jin, and Tai Ji Qi Gong are popular since Sung Dynasty.

All Wushu has its specific Qi Gong exercise. For entry level, it is about breathing.

Qi is a Chinese theory to describe something that permeates either in the body or elsewhere. It is a theory.

For Wushu purpose, you may consider O2. On cellular level, you consider ATP and mitochodria (power source).

Lets say 2 people pushing each other. There is no movement. So it is isotonic or isometric contraction of muscles>?

Who ever is out of breath first loses. When you push, you start with deep inhalation, then exhalation and holding breath. You use up O2 very quickly.

What is reverse breathing?

Some basic ideas and explanations of Qi. O2 and ATP.

Qi is more than that in Wushu. Talk about it later

[red5angel]

Paul, no problem, I'm not knocking anyone for what they believe, just trying to understand it.
As for DNA vs. Qi, it is different in my view. DNA has an obvious and tangible effect, we're sitting here writing on computers, we being products of DNA. My dogs, wife, cat, all products of DNA, and we know this. We also know that DNA is the building plan for all things biological, it tells out body how to work. Sure, we don't necessarily know how it works yet, what the exact mechanisms are for, or more accuratley, we just haven't figured out how to read the blue prints accuratley yet, but they're working on it.
Qi, however in my experience has never been shown to have any sort of effect that cannot be explained through science. there are a lot of claims out there about what it can do, but everything I have seen that falls within the realm of so called Qi, is just basic bio-mechanics and biology.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

Some people explain the mystery of life with measurements and detailed theories.. others explain it with conceptual/cultural words like Qi..

There may be a blueprint called DNA.. but what is the stuff that makes up DNA, how does it organize itself..

At an even more basic level.. we dialogue about these magnificent creations, our bodies.. but, in a very real sense, they dont actually exist.. in the search for that basic smallest piece of "matter" science finds that "matter" is mostly empty space.. the search also yields smaller and smaller particles and with each successive reduction that which appeared "solid" releases energy and shows another smaller "particle".. it is widely theorized that if we develop adequate technology to finally break down the smallest particle we will find that everything is simply energy locked into specific patterns of behavior.. nothing "solid" other than our perception of the "pattern" of energy.. the Heisenburg experiments clearly demonstrate the effect of beliefs on the observation.. essentially, the intensity of a belief alters the outcome of an observation.. This has been proven to occur at the particle physics level, that consciousness has a direct and measurable effect on the energies controlling the results of experiments.. Now, considering that situation and considering that science readily admits there are energies and forces at work in the universe which they can't even conceptualize other than to know they must exist in order to make the universe work.. how can someone assert that the concept of Qi is invalid without proof or evidence.. i suggest that, based on the Heisenburg experiments, that it is theoretically possible to manipulate energies (even unknown energies) with beliefs and intentions.. i don't have to know the theories of thermal dynamics to know that fire burns and causes pain..

Be well..

[red5angel]

how can someone assert that the concept of Qi is invalid without proof or evidence

I can state this because there is no proof, no observable effect. I could make up anything if I wanted to and claim that it exists, we just haven't seen it yet, or can't measure it but that's silly. Obviously you guys who do believe in it, have a reason other then, hopefully, someone told you about it and it sounded good at the time.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel


I can state this because there is no proof, no observable effect. I could make up anything if I wanted to and claim that it exists, we just haven't seen it yet, or can't measure it but that's silly. Obviously you guys who do believe in it, have a reason other then, hopefully, someone told you about it and it sounded good at the time. Life is a pretty observable effect. But this argument has gone in about 67 circles. Time for a pit stop.

[red5angel]

Life is a pretty observable effect. But this argument has gone in about 67 circles.

right, but I don't agree or believe that qi is necessary for life, or that it exists to support life.


Time for a pit stop.

I agree, too many circles, I'm starting to get dizzy.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Admittedly, taken out of context, the last response is appropriate to my question..
how can someone assert that the concept of Qi is invalid without proof or evidence .. but, had you addressed the remainder of the post it might be a little different..
Now, considering that situation and considering that science readily admits there are energies and forces at work in the universe which they can't even conceptualize other than to know they must exist in order to make the universe work.. how can someone assert that the concept of Qi is invalid without proof or evidence.. ..and, long before i heard of Qi i already had experiences that suggested there was more to life than could be explained by the confines of science.. when i did learn about Qi it comes closest to a working model for the unexplainable experiences that "i" am comfortable with.. please don't assume that i buy into flakey theories because "it sounded good at the time".. My perspective is that there are results and effects of the human experience that exceed the ability of science to explain or even to acknowledge, and that until someone provides a better explanation, the word Qi is as good as any other.. it has history, it has quantifiable results, and those results are evident in my experience.. again, the experience of being burned by fire is valid with or without elegant descriptions or mathematic equations..

Be well...

[red5angel]

no I just didn't see any reason to address the rest of your post, I can agree on most of it. You are making one fundamental mistake though:


there was more to life than could be explained by the confines of science

everything can eventually be explained by science.

Here's the issue with dealing with the paranormal, you guys are trying to prove a negative. You keep pointing to "life" as the answer, or what science hasn't discovered but those aren't valid arguments, especially in context with the questions I'm asking for the most part. try to prove that I don't have a gremlin under my chair. You can't see it, can't feel it, can't hear or smell it. There's no way to interact with it but it's there. Now prove to me it exists.





see what I mean? ;)

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
everything can eventually be explained by science. Then how can you discount anything if the proof is always X years away?

[red5angel]

Then how can you discount anything if the proof is always X years away?

because not EVERYTHING exists. Proof sometimes means proof for or against.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel


because not EVERYTHING exists. Proof sometimes means proof for or against. You won't know that until science is able to say definitively one way or another. There is no quantifiable proof now is all you can accurately surmise, but by your own accounts, that doesn't mean the technology will not be developed at a later date.

[EarthDragon]

red5 angel,
please answer for us all what proof do we have that you exsist?

can you answer this? all we see is your name and what you post but this does not prove you exsist. So if you are arguing issues about proof and not belief then you are the one whom needs advice. please open you ears and read the posts so we dont have to keep exlaining the same thing over and overand over.

[Gangsterfist]

Even science is not an exact science. We use trial and error and controls that may not exist or happen in the real world to get certain data or researched desired. Science can be manipulated just like anything else.

As for your gremlin, you just proved most of our points. You say Chi DOES NOT exist, but where is your proof that it doesn't? A lot of times all it takes is aknowledgement for something to exist. If enough people believe in something, it exists.

[red5angel]

can you answer this? all we see


done, there you go.



lot of times all it takes is aknowledgement for something to exist

uh, no. Like I said, I could make up anything, but that doesn't mean it exists, it just means I made it up.

[red5angel]

.
please open you ears and read the posts so we dont have to keep exlaining the same thing over and overand over.

earth dragon, while most of the other guys who have been posting on this thread have been civil and tried to maintain an intelligent discussion by reading previous posts, you have not only proven you have not read through this thread in it's entirety, now your just ****ing me off by insisting I do. I can assure you I have been reading in full everyone;s post and as you can see by masterkillers last post and my agreement, I know we have touched on several subjects quite a few times, a good portion of those with you, because you haven't bothered to read ahead of your posting.
If you can't become civil, if you can't start reading previous posts before posting, not just my most recent posts, then I will no longer bother to respond to your posts. I'm not interested in wasting my time, trying to re-answetr things have already provided answers for, because you won't read ahead, and I certainly won't stand for being accused of the very issue you have. Hopefully you see this post before others post and completely miss it.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

Fundamental error...

everything can eventually be explained by science.
Science is a description, a measurement, a model.. of something that is an actual experience.. you mistake science for something it is not.. the answer!!

Be well..

[red5angel]

no taichibob, again, science is a tool, but it helps you to find the answer.

[EarthDragon]

red5angel, I can assure you that I am being civil. We have spoken several times on other threads and have agreed on many topics. I do read this thread but mainly concentrate on your posts becuse you seem to be playing the devil advocate and are the only one who dismisses the idea that qi exsists. I have not even heard you say it does possibly exsist!
IMHO a very narrow minded and limited perception. As other have said can you prove that it does'nt exsist? No you cannot but again that does not mean it that it does'nt. This disscussion can go on for a very long time if both points of view remain stubborn.

Tai Chi Bob said can't we just agree that we disagree?

Our aurra's were thought about in the same light that qi is. The sceptics ruled out that such an energy field surrounding us cannot exsist, especially colored one's! that was until George Illian invented a camera and film to photograph such aurra's now all the sceptics are hiding thier heads in embarrassment.

Agreeing to disagree seems like the only solution that will satisfy both parties. Until we invent a tool or measurinfg device that proves otherwise.

[Vash]

Originally posted by EarthDragon

Our aurra's were thought about in the same light that qi is. The sceptics ruled out that such an energy field surrounding us cannot exsist, especially colored one's! that was until George Illian invented a camera and film to photograph such aurra's now all the sceptics are hiding thier heads in embarrassment.

Argreeing to disagree seems like the only solution that will satisfy both parties. Until we invent a tool or measurinfg device that proves otherwise.

LOL or WTF, you be the judge.

[red5angel]

we're discussing cause that's what we do on a forum. I'm so far enjoying the conversation.

There was a time when I said, maybe it does exist. I visited with a few people who studied Qi and Qigong, and even had one instructor who was pretty into it himself. Spent a couple of years sort of looking into it, seeing what I could find out, and all I ever found out was that everything that could be demonstrated about Qi, was biomechanical and biology. I never saw anything else to make me believe that there was something more.
Now before anyone goes off on how I didn't visit the far east, that's no excuse. The information is out there, Dr. Jang Ying-Ming or whatever his name is has a huge line of books about it, and he is in America, several other Qi proponents, both asian and not, live here as well, so it's like saying I can't study real kungfu unless I go to china.

[Ralphie]

Vash,
Kirlian photography is thought to capture auras. There has been scientific studies on it, and there is proof for and against this. So, take that for what it's worth. For me, Kirlian photography is interesting, but perhaps inconclusive.

[norther practitioner]

Red, this is one of several times you have argued against yourself (in a way)...

You are thinking of qi in too tangible of a way. A thought is not tangible, but it does exist. Qi, while it may not be tangible, and it is biological does exsist, it is what you want it to be in certain ways. Too many try to define it, however it has no real definition other than a type of inner energy.... there are many things you can say to disprove it, but have you ever done qigong? Have you stuck with it, have you experienced any changes? If so, did you keep an open mind as too what may have caused that? Do you believe that accupressure and accupuncture work?

[EarthDragon]

Vash LOL....................

Sorry its Krillian thanks Ralphie

[EarthDragon]

Vash LOL....................

Sorry its Krillian thanks Ralphie

[Vash]

I was more referencing the "all the sceptics are hiding thier heads in embarrassment" line.

But yeah, the photography seems interesting to me. I've read a few studies involving it, just never really saw the relevance to what I was doing at the time, so i kinda lost all the material.

[MasterKiller]

Red5, you want proof! Here ya go!

This is from Kung Lek's secret online training manual.

[EarthDragon]

red5angel,
here is a picture of me and my qigong teacher Yen Chu Feng, a very famous master in china, japan and singapore. She is demonstrating the power of qi...... she is pointing at my leg while I am inserting a 9 inch steel wire through my quatracept muscle without the slighest pain or bleeding. This was demonstrated on a TV show here in Buffalo NY in 1999 and was view by several doctors in the kaleida health organization and they said this is medically unexplainable. Yet you say it doesnt exsist.........what up?

[red5angel]

NP, just because we're both doing your girl, I'll be nice....

A thought exists and has an obvious and observable effect. Even if you don't act out or externally express your though, you stil interact with it.



Too many try to define it, however it has no real definition other than a type of inner energy

How do you know? All other forms of energy are measurable, if only in rudimentary ways.



but have you ever done qigong? Have you stuck with it, have you experienced any changes? If so, did you keep an open mind as too what may have caused that?

Yes, actually I did, for over a year I did a form of standing qigong. In theory, in 6 weeks I should have felt "something". At 6 months I should have noticed certain things, my awareness growing, some other physical manifestations. In 1 year I was supposed to be beyond a shadow of a doubt produced some sort of observable effect. As for keeping an open mind, I like to think so. I'm not naturally a skeptical guy, and this was back when I was looking into the possibility of it existing. I was diligent, did my 45 minutes to an hour a day everyday for the most part. nothng ever came of it. I did get some tingling, easily explained however as an effect of the displacement of blood in my body.

As for acupressure and acupuncture, I have had acupuncture and it worked. however, someone else posted the so called scientific explanation on this thread, something I was already aware of anyway. I know the chinese theory behind it, but they are still behind in the understanding of the human body.

[red5angel]

earth dragon, I'd have to see more then just pictures. Pictures prove nothing, especially in this day and age. Do you have a tape of the show? What sort of medical doctors were on hand to witness this? Were they there in person? Did they run any test?

[red5angel]

This is from Kung Lek's secret online training manual.

Holy Crap!! That's irrefutable proof if I've ever seen it!! Especially if Kung Lek is involved!!!!

[backbreaker]

I have read that the chinese character for qi is two characters, rice and steam, and that qi is interaction of energy internally and externally, all one. But I have a feeling qi is universal and not just living things. I could totally be wrong, I am no expert at all at qi theory, and I really don't know all that much. My guess is that alot of qigongs were taught secretly in the past and perhaps the general understanding of it is bits and peices peiced together.


I can beleive the steel wire stuff because from qigong practice I have seen that if I am cut my blood coagulates incredibly fast and stops bleeding. But there's no way I could stick a 9 inch wire through me with no blood, I'm not at that level.

Earth Dragon-, is this a result of hard qigong practice or is it developed anyways at higher levels in general? Also, can you do this without your masters help, or do you need your master?

[backbreaker]

red5angel- it's too bad you didn't receive benefits in a year, or that you did't feel stronger whole body energy flows. On the one hand I partially agree that the benefits should be quiker than a year and powerful qigong can work quikly all of a sudden, if you were standing for 30 minutes a day I find it surprising that you didn't receive alot of energy and vitality as well as feeling the enrgy flowing and stuff. On the other hand , some qigons do take alot of time. In Dayan wild goose they say you have to do the first form a thousand times to receive the benefits. My guess is this is because the wild goose is very gentle, does not use the mind to direct qi, and uses alot of hand movements along the energy channels.

[red5angel]

backbreaker - I get vitality and energy from working out, whether it's kungfu, running or lifting weights. I've certainly always felt better both mentally and physically when I have studied martial arts consistantly. However, that is what I refer to as being in shape or good health. It's common sense that if you keep yourself healthy your general quality of life rises. Standing around (there were a couple of poses I did each morning, plus some "warm up" type stuff) wasn't going to get me towards that goal.

[backbreaker]

yeah but is the vitality a physical sensation, like every breath you take is refreshing, feeling warmth and tingling, electric and vibrating through your body. Maybe it is. But myself, I don't get ANYWHERE NEAR the vitality from running or working out or sport fighting styles. If I do Taijiquan I will feel warmth and pleasant tingling throug my whole body until the next morning. If I do qigong ( especially if I did Taiji earlier) I will have automatic joy, and just feel happy if I want to or not, and I won't have a care in the world. I won't say it is proof of qi, but myself, I beleive the theories of the people I respect and whose systems I like, but I also have been doing qigong since I was 12 or so. Maybe the energy comes quicker and easier if you are younger, I don't know

So myself I'd stat out with an hour of good Taijiquan each day, and at the very beginning practice very slowly, I mean slow and think of myself as being very light. And standing practice can be done before Taiji and sitting meditation can be done after. That's how I practice simplified

[backbreaker]

EarthDragon- WHen you take the wire out is there a hole in your leg? Does this do any long term injury or scarring, to prove qi? Or does it heal right away?

[red5angel]

all those things you are describing are exactly what I feel, except maybe the automatic joy thing, that usually comes after some lovin from my wifey! :)

[red5angel]

"science really doesn't have a way to communicate directly with religious fundamentalism; scientists are used to arguing with facts and when confronted with someone who argues on the basis of belief, there's really no middle ground. "

[Gangsterfist]

There is an old chinese saying that goes like this:

You do not know something until you do it 1000 times.

You do not understand it until you do it 10,000 times


[[I could have messed that up, but I think you all get the point]]

[EarthDragon]

red5angel,
you said you need more than pictures and pictures, dont prove anything, especially in this day and and age. Well i can assure you that the picture I posted is from my website and is not doctored in ANY way. It is just a snap shot from a regular 35mm kodak camera, it's not even digital. Do you think that I doctored it just for you ? to prove you wrong? please... changing your opion is not my intnetion nor would I even know how to beging to change the pic.

I do have the video tape from the show, it was AM Buffalo, fall 1999. I also have many other video's of her qigong demonstrations and over 300 hours of taped healings.

The doctors that were at ther show were from Millard Fillmore gates circle hopspital. They ranged from a neurologist, an cancer research specialist from roswell cancer institute and a cardiologist. They all have had inquiries about chinese medicine qigong and accupuncute for healing. Qigong used for healing in laymens terms is similar to accupuncture however instead of using needles you use the qi to accomplish the opening up of meridians to allow or unblock stangnet qi.

The tests are the proof in the pudding, my teacher has healed over 5,000 people in this country alone. She has healed, bells palsy, AIDA, cancer, deformities, paralyasis, polio and many other diseases.
Most of these cures cannot be explained in westeren medical terms. but remember western medicine is only 263 years old compared to china which is over 4000 years old, so there is a lot about medicine and qigong that westerners dont understand obviously including yourself, but then again if someone with a doctorate degree does not understand how could you? at least the docotrs are open to try to understand and accept the fact that something what ever you call it does indeed exsist!

[norther practitioner]

that usually comes after some lovin from my wifey!

you too!?


Well, in response to before...

Take potential, we can only measure that with H... other than going to Einstein's stuff (which is totally different), but it is still e.

[EarthDragon]

BACKBREAKER.,
you said....
Earth Dragon-, is this a result of hard qigong practice or is it developed anyways at higher levels in general? Also, can you do this without your masters help, or do you need your master?

This is not hard qigong practice, it is medical qigong jin gon tzu li gong not martial. medical is much more detailed and takes much more time, it depends at what skill you are trying to accomplish as to what level you are seeking to reach, but is not just developed at higher levels.

Yes I do need my teacher to perform the needle insertion, I am not at that level, I have only been doing qigong for 8 years just a beginner...............

The trouble is in this country most of the qigong teachers are basic, either standing qigong excersizes or slight motion movments to feel qi flow. this is extremly basic, like knowing horse and bow stance and saying you know matial arts and can fight. this is why so many people like red5angel dismiss it so quickly, becuse they have little or no true knowledge of how powerful this skill can be.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

However anecdotal this may be to some, it actually happened with witnesses.. Seattle '94 John Leong's Tournament, during a particularly brutal push-hands competition.. my opponent repeatedly double-grabbed my lead arm and yanked with all his might.. 3 warnings, and on the next set he took my knee out with his own as he again yanked.. the result was a ripped groin muscle (1/2 tennis-ball sized mass of knotted muscle in my groin).. the Doctor on call said 3-6 months and possible surgery.. the next morning i was supposed to take a Chen seminar with Cui Yu Li.. i couldn't bear the pain but tried to stumble through it.. at Chan Pui's request, Ms. Cui told me to sit it out and she would fix it later (BS i thought to myself).. that afternoon she and Nelson Chan (Chan Pui's brother), as translator, came up to my room and Ms. Cui worked on me for +/- 45 minutes.. to make a long story short, i was hiking with Ms.Cui and two other people up on Hurricane Ridge in the Olympic Mountains the day after that... the same doctor refused to believe what was clearly presented to him.. he was certain of his diagnosis and equally certain of the prognosis.. he admitted only that this was outside anything he could understand.. (me too).. i had no further pain or problems with the injury.. Ms. Cui (whom i am now proud to call a friend) said it was just QiGong, using her energy and my energy to help nature along.. believe it, don't believe it, scoff at it, rationalize it to whatever perspective you choose, but.. i have to believe that Ms Cui tapped into something that western medicine and western science cannot explain and those blinded by "logic" cannot accept.. as for me, it is verifiably real from personal experience.. and those that accompanied me to the Tournament (+/- 30 students and instructors from the Wah Lum Temple) were amazed at the healing.. Ms. Cui accompanied us back to Orlando and did a week-long workshop on Chen.. i didn't miss a step..

Be well...

PS: Wherever you are Ms. Cui thanks again for all you have done for me and for Taiji/QiGong.. <humble bows>...

[Vash]

I'd be willing to experiment with Qigong type healing. been down for a year with a chest injury, so it couldn't hurt.

If anyone knows of QG healing practitioners around the southern Arkansas/Northern louisiana area, PM me, email me, somethin'.

barring that, I've have to start doing Iron Crotch . . . though I've already got the balls of steel.

:eek:

[Gangsterfist]

One of my kung fu brothers had a bum knee for a while. Some kind of growth injury. He had this condiditon where he grew too fast for his body. You know those kids that just spurt up like 2 feet in 8th grade? That was my kung fu brother. So his knees were not developed properly. He actually had several years of physical theropy done, and it helped tremendously, but every now and then the problem would resurface. He had some Qigong massage and healing done to his knee by a friend of ours, and it pretty much permanetly healed his knee injuries. He says at worst they feel a bit tense every now and then, but the never really hurt that bad.

I was skeptical at first as well, but after hearing his story I am more so convinced. I believe it can help your body heal itself, but I don't think its some kind of miracle work or anything.

[backbreaker]

Awesome EarthDraogon-

I beleive in higher qigong abilities myself, on Saturday at wild goose qigong class after class my qigong teacher demonstrated quan yin qinway qigong, In wild goos there is " Fragrance gong" but in qinway my teacher has learned to transmit fragrance to water. Someone put a water bottle in the center of a circle of people and the teacher transmitted flower fragrance into the water, and the person said they could really smell it when they drank it. There is no magic, or tricks in qigong, and my teacher didn't tell us he was transmitting fragrance.

[EarthDragon]

People have to open thier eyes and realize that just becuse they have'nt heard of it or it hasnt happened to them personally that it does work and does exsist.

Think of someone telling you to take a pill and your disease will be gone. Do you see how ridiculous this sounds?

Again Just because you dont understand it do not sound foolish and say it's not true

[kungfu cowboy]

Think of someone telling you to take a pill and your disease will be gone. Do you see how ridiculous this sounds?


Not really, as there are underlying molecular biochemical mechanisms altered or influenced by the compounds within the pill, with known and experimentally demonstrable properties (for many).

[David Jamieson]

uh, that would be the phenomenon known as the "placebo effect"

which actually has it's own strange efficacy.

It is known that a good chunk of the battle with a disease is psychosomatic.

If you can alleviate the psychosomatic aspect of any disease, you are well on your way to recovery.

Now, viral stuff and bacterial stuff must be dealt with usually with drugs or herbs, but qigong does a tremendous job at raising energy levels, improving attitude and bringing up general health levels. When combined with acupuncture and herbal, perhaps even some terminological drug therapy, well BANG! Next thing ya know, you're healthy!

Don't knock it if ya haven't tried it is all I'm saying.

cheers

[kungfu cowboy]

Yeah, I knew someone would bring up the placebo effect. Sure it's real, but it too also most probably has an underlying biochemical mechanism that is basically also manipulating various chemicals, as the improvements are to a system of molecules (humans) that follow the laws of Elvis.

I'm in no way dissing other modalities of treatment, but they all operate within the same universe, under the same natural laws. Some stuff at this stage still seems a mystery. Like the wheel.

[MasterKiller]

Dudes, placebo effect is so last week. Or, at least it was when I was talking about it in this thread. ;)

[kungfu cowboy]

See? Another not so well known result of the placebo effect is the rehashing of tired old sitcoms. This is merely an extension of this phenomena.