Three simple questions for different energy issuing method.

[Phenix]

Three simple questions for different energy issuing method.


0, Do you have a broken arrow to start with (baijong etc....) ?

1, IS your hand strecth when you release your bow and shoot the arrow?

2, do you strech or shrink your limbs/body when you storing energy?


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If 0 is a broken arrow, then one Will not be able to balance and centering without correction effort in static or dynamic or doesnt know about balancing and centering dynamic motion.


If 1 is streching while releasing. then this is using speed against speed. the one who is fast and innitiate the acceleration first generely win.

If 2 is shrinking/rooting while storing energy, then one will perform "1". and ultimately using speed against speed. If the opponent is bigger, then one will not has the chance to release the energy. similar to, if one press the spring to store energy and the other has just to stop it to be release...... so it will stuck.



just some thought, believe it or not all the above can be read from even a picture?

[Gangsterfist]

My sifu has been known to say, "Hands move like arrows or spears, and feet move like wheels."

I think perhaps the term extend is better to use than stretch, but I get your point.

A better question would be when one released an arrow from the bow, what type of energy is behind it? Plucking? Penetrating? Pushing? Darting? Warding? Devastating? Exposive?

One has many ways to release energy, which is the best method to deliver it, and what determines which method is best? Obviously circumstance is what determines it.

[Phenix]

I think perhaps the term extend is better to use than stretch, but I get your point.----------------


you can be correct.



A better question would be when one released an arrow from the bow, what type of energy is behind it? Plucking? Penetrating? Pushing? Darting? Warding? Devastating? Exposive?-------

Energy is energy. Battery using for Stunt gun is similar to battery using for flash light.
what type of result do you want? plucking? penetrating.... exposive? as you likes it. your intention control that.



One has many ways to release energy, which is the best method to deliver it, and what determines which method is best? Obviously circumstance is what determines it. -----------


There is only a few major way to release energy. So one has to identify them. Cannot just blur away. So what way one is using? what is the capability, what is the limitation....etc? one has to face that.

Nope, circumstance is not going to determines it. ONE need to keep the dynamic center always. not the circumstance , otherwise, you lost.

[Gangsterfist]

Interesting, so you would know what energy to release or use with out having circumstance as a factor? How do you view circumstance?

This is how I view it:

Someone throws a high angular punch (not quite a hook) at me that is pretty commited. I bong sao it, and then drop my wu sao into a torquing powered punch at my opponets midsection, probably towards the kidneys right as my opponets body is moving towards my strike due to their over committment of their punch. To me I would have executed this technique due to the circumstances of the fight:

1) He punched me high

2) Over committed strike, and moving right into my center

3) Angle stepping and torquing a punch could put me in a better situation than my opponet

4) Making my weapons available and theirs not

Those are all circumstances of why I chose my technique. I am not saying its the only answer or the right answer, but its one that would happen due to circumstance.

If one's arrow is broken, can it still dart to its target? Will it hit but just not penetrate as much? Or could it infact be just as effective?

[Phenix]

Interesting, so you would know what energy to release or use with out having circumstance as a factor? How do you view circumstance? ------------------------

circumstance is always a factor cannot be avoid. To be able to be making use of the factor is the game. thus, one needs to master the resultant force in different realm
Water will flow or build up potential.... with different circumstance.



Someone throws a high angular punch (not quite a hook) at me that is pretty commited.
I bong sao it, and then drop my wu sao into a torquing powered punch at my opponets midsection, probably towards the kidneys right as my opponets body is moving towards my strike due to their over committment of their punch.
To me I would have executed this technique due to the circumstances of the fight..........




what if I transcent the incomming force with a bong --- while her force pressing into my bong hard, I rotate and return a resultant force shocking back to his body focus at his legs with the same path?..:D (ofcause one need the bow vertical wave energy issuing capability to do these)

What if I ignore to engage with his technics but go direct for a strike under his arm pit with taking his "place" in the sametime?
I control how much I want to damage him or just taking his place .....


there are lots of ways to response to one thing.



See, you have a choice to deal with his technics or deal with his motion or deal with his energy. However, if you cannot transcen your subjective experience into an objective one. you might only "see " one way ---- react and engage with the incoming technics. the more realm you master, the more choice of solutions you have...

So, Chan, Zen, in here is can you "transcent" the subjective experience into an objective one? So, what is this got to do with issuing energy? As I mention in other post, if your "awareness" is in a subjective experience position, chances is you will be busying react or stuct at the incomming technics...... becaue you mind has moves in the chan terminology. if your awareness transcent to Objective. Then, what you see changes.... That transcent to objective is similar to what Carolyn Myss describe about in her intuition training, about using the upper chakra to intuitivel find solution.


energy issuing is all realm of energy not just physical. One enter into Non-dual, there one response with "resultant"--- Non-dual. Be it in the realm of physical, mind,..... certainly it is not easy to reach there. But people with that level of art exist in my understanding and experience.
And Chan is not just word of wisdom or some chinese slogan. The capability of Intuitively operate in upper chakra or the 7th chakra is not a myth but attainment of lots of well develop people in this world. such as caroline myss, some shaman, some Chan monks.....pioner designer in the valley......

( Notice this is not about those spirit and ghost.... those from the other side or crossover stuffs. it is a part of human capability or wisdom as one put it. nothing to do with those supersticious he says she says or I know your past life. .... story making stuffs. )





If one's arrow is broken, can it still dart to its target? Will it hit but just not penetrate as much? Or could it infact be just as effective? ----------------

sure one can do that.

Sometimes, when one is totally lost control in physical realm, it happen, one might do that. say a thai boxer hit some's neck with round kick but get caught, in emergency, he might jump up using the elbow to axe down... etc....
However, the mental realm must be still not broken arrow.

that is what it said in the Kuen Kuit, physical might break and Yee (intention) is not broken.

But, if one doesnt know about what is broken arrow stuffs in physical, mental, yee.... one is not be able to use these type of things......


So back to the 3 simple questions. How much do we know ourself? it doesnt matter how other perform of the circumstance.... we need to perform before we can discuss about those.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix
what if I transcent the incomming force with a bong --- while her force pressing into my bong hard, I rotate and return a resultant force shocking back to his body focus at his legs with the same path?..:D (ofcause one need the bow vertical wave energy issuing capability to do these)

What if I ignore to engage with his technics but go direct for a strike under his arm pit with taking his "place" in the sametime?
I control how much I want to damage him or just taking his place .....


Yes, I love it! I love this Bong, come on press harder on it, you fly higher this way...LOL!

direct, simple and efficient right? :D

[desertwingchun2]

"just some thought, believe it or not all the above can be read from even a picture?" - phenis

Gangsterfist,here (http://www.dragonslist.com/kwoon/?id=63) are pictures of Cho Ga Wing Chun with lucid explainations and should aid in your discussions. BTW, Sifu Wong is a true Kung Fu sifu who has many many students world-wide.

-David

[Phenix]

Originally posted by desertwingchun2
"just some thought, believe it or not all the above can be read from even a picture?" - phenis

Gangsterfist,here (http://www.dragonslist.com/kwoon/?id=63) are pictures of Cho Ga Wing Chun with lucid explainations and should aid in your discussions. BTW, Sifu Wong is a true Kung Fu sifu who has many many students world-wide.

-David



Wong doesnt have a broken arrow. that is great!


desertwingchun2, How about this? what do you think?

kfo-lym-top.jpg

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=443672

[reneritchie]

I disagree with the analogy. I don't work off a bow & arrow concept. An arrow, once set free, is dead.

I work off a hammer and nail concept. I dig the nail into the target, then hit it with the hammer.

[reneritchie]

Wong does a hybrid of Cho and Hung Kuen, so while excellent, it will diverge in parts of WCK.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
I disagree with the analogy. I don't work off a bow & arrow concept. An arrow, once set free, is dead.

I work off a hammer and nail concept. I dig the nail into the target, then hit it with the hammer.

Rene,

You certainly welcome to disagree.

a nail is dead after you nail it too. :D

broken arrow in your hammer and nail analogy is that if you hold your hammer with a full strech hand. how is it going to hammer or hold the hammer without offset your total structure?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Wong does a hybrid of Cho and Hung Kuen, so while excellent, it will diverge in parts of WCK.

Rene,
Sure, And I disgaree with Wong intepretation.
but in technical of energy structure discussion, if Wong doesnt have a broken arrow in baijong..etc then we have to admit the fact.

If Osense or Mas Oyama doesnt have a broken arrow we also need to admit that. if I have a broken arrow I will admit that. If anyone doing WCK has a broken arrow then one has to admit that.
it is about how to balance one's body to begin with..

Keep it technical is the key. balancing doesnt by default balance because it has a WCK logo.

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Phenix




Wong doesnt have a broken arrow. that is great!


desertwingchun2, How about this? what do you think?

kfo-lym-top.jpg

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=443672

I think it's a cool picture. I especially like the logo in the background.

-David

[old jong]

Originally posted by reneritchie
I disagree with the analogy. I don't work off a bow & arrow concept. An arrow, once set free, is dead.

I work off a hammer and nail concept. I dig the nail into the target, then hit it with the hammer.

There's nothing like a good impact drill!...;)

[Phenix]

So your hand strecth when you release your bow and shoot the arrow?

strech or shrink when you shoot the arrow?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No, not the hand; but the angles of the joints. ---------------




Is that fit catagory 2 above?


Draw a circle with one of your leg as center and using the other leg to draw a circle around this center (the distance between the two legs is the radius). See from the top view, if any hands is outside this circle. If it is outside the circle you will have a broken arrow condition. as #1.


There are different ways of looking at this energy issuing DNA type. Their pro and cons, and thier limitation. ID of is it a streching art or a sending art.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Phenix
So your hand strecth when you release your bow and shoot the arrow?

strech or shrink when you shoot the arrow?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, not the hand; but the angles of the joints. ---------------


Is that fit catagory 2 above?

2, do you strech or shrink your limbs/body when you storing energy?

I don't think that your limbs can stretch or shink. What I've been refering to in my previous posts in another thread is "angular extension" of the joints when you throw a punch.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by desertwingchun2


I think it's a cool picture. I especially like the logo in the background.

-David


Great!

So the cool picture does represent the WCK you study?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Wingman


I don't think that your limbs can stretch or shink. What I've been refering to in my previous posts in another thread is "angular extension" of the joints when you throw a punch.


hahaha, your whole arm become longer when you throw a punch?

[Gangsterfist]

I see strikes that come from one's center as a spear or an arrow. They come in and penetrate through the target just like a piercing weapon would. A hammer is a bludgeoning weapon and will not penetrate as much but cause more surface damage. I see the point of making the target a nail and hit it to penetrate, but why even limit yourself like that. A spear can penetrate anywhere it strikes.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
I see strikes that come from one's center as a spear or an arrow. They come in and penetrate through the target just like a piercing weapon would. A hammer is a bludgeoning weapon and will not penetrate as much but cause more surface damage. I see the point of making the target a nail and hit it to penetrate, but why even limit yourself like that. A spear can penetrate anywhere it strikes.


Arrow/bow, vertical wave generation horizontal waving, VWHW, nail/hammer are different term to describe different things in energy issuing.


Let's start with Yee Chuan evolution, then we can see how things evol.

Around 1930, Yee Chuan's founder WXZ starting something which is irritating/shaking the CMA where lots of old terms was explain in an modern understandable way and process of issuing energy was reveal... Such as resultant force...... And, WXZ lived up to his talked defeating Advance Chinese and Japanese martial artists Chalenges, oftern with single strike.

In WXZ teaching and writing, the VWHW and Arrow/bow were inherit from the old chinese term to describe energy issuing. This include the generation and the issuing.

VWHW describe the total process, Arrow/bow further simplified the description of the process with less dynamic.

Then, Yee Chuan practitioners come up with another analogy. The hammer and arrow analogy. This is to zoom in to describe how the impact contact limb interact with the boby. Now, notice here, not much energy generation process was described in this model.


So, the nail and hammer analogy was further adopted by other MA style in China. However, most doesnt carry the generation process. Thus, the generation range from waving to muscular locallize force.....to rooted into ground.. etc. since nothing much about hammer was said. and it is up for imagination for some.



The term Broken Arrow, which I used, has a common term in old Chinese martial art, it is called Broken Sharp or Poh Jian in madarin. This mean excessive or imbalance in the holistic energy issuing system.

Most internal art and some southern art emphasis on this, but not all. As i have heard, the wck kuen kuit from LJ to Yip Man to Yip students also emphasis on these, even it was use another term or saying in another way..." issue the 6 hamonies force (Fat lok haap lek in cantonese.) ...if the shoulder force doesnt return to origin, must not release the hand...." The 6 hamonies has to be balance or center to be able to function properly. dynamically, if the shoulder is poping out..... ---- Broken arrow.



The #0 of the 3 questions related to the Broken Arrow or the 6 harmonies. If one know them, one can either describe it with the circle or with the 6 harmonies.

The #1 and #2 of the 3 questions related to the VWHW. which the Hammer and Nail analogy doesnt cover much.



So, there is nothing mysterious about issuing energy.


Here, I am trying to use modern term to share what I understant with a goal so that we all learn and progress. I appreciate technical discussion /disagreement because that is how we all learn together. we all can learn since no one is god and perfect.

For those individual who like to attack and toll. It is highly not appreciated and waisting bandwidth.


just some thought.

[reneritchie]

Hendrik,

In the analogy, my arm is the nail and my body the hammer, and they align in the drive, so there is no disharmony.

And its okay if the nail is dead once the hammer hits it, because it's in the target. :)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Hendrik,

In the analogy, my arm is the nail and my body the hammer, and they align in the drive, so there is no disharmony.

And its okay if the nail is dead once the hammer hits it, because it's in the target. :)


Rene,

Your hammer and nail describtion accord to the Yee Chuan description in the Yee chuan book.

Hey, bullets is for shoot and discard right? :D


But as I bring up above, this hammer and nail description say not much about how the engergy generated ......

how fast can the hammer hammering? :D
that is the question and the reason I believe why some WCner cannot sustain the grapper's intrution or rush in.

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Phenix



Great!

So the cool picture does represent the WCK you study?

No, the picture is just a cool picture. The logo in the picture does, however, represent the system of Wing Chun Kuen I study. Next.

-David

[reneritchie]

I think if WCK people trained to stop the shoot as much as they trained other things, they'd adapt to it. People can talk concept all day, but the body learns by doing. You can't beat training, training, training.

The hammer generates ideal power by striking dead center on the nail in as linear a path as possible. Align your shoulders and hips to your punch like the four corners of a square-head sledge hammer, then use one of the basic drive methods (expansion/contraction, rotation, spiral) to smash.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie


then use one of the basic drive methods (expansion/contraction, rotation, spiral) to smash.

Rene,

True, those expansion/contraction/rotation.. are the basic similar to the basic elements in chemistry.

However, as an analogy, Coke has its own formular, pepsi has its own formular. They still never leave the basic elements but the weight of every elements and proposion are different... Thus, Coke is not pepsi.

The problem with CMA in the past 100years of evolusion is some has lost the coke formular. But claiming they have all the basic elements and they are the most orthodox......etc.

Sure, one can invent COKE or Pepsi with the basic chemical elements. But, knowing the basic chemical elements is not the same as knowing the coke or pepsi formulars.

Thus, one can claim one know the basic chemical elements from the father of chemisty. But as soon as one doesnt have the COKE or pepsi formula. One is not Coke or pepsi expert. one can be a chemist but not a coke or pepsi expert. Same with one can be a martial artist but cannot be a so and so style expert because one dont know the particular. Knowing the general is not going to make a person expert or a system expert. such as having a general education degree is not going to become the leader of the post graduate study in field of rocket science.

This is the same reason with say CMA DNA. when one write article one always start with Damo comes to Shao Lin......or Chang San feng from Wudang. But those are the Chemisty basic elements. Since then there is Coke, there is pepsi, there is sprite, there is fanta, there is sevenup........

The coke guy better knows what is the formular. otherwise, when challenge by a pepsi guy. IS the coke guy going totally to import pepsi because in his mind he has no idea what is the formular of coke.

the founder of Yee Chuan,WXZ, just question the samething. where is the beef? how come a simple core training of CMA become such complicated with sets and move and formulars.... but most cant stand against the boxing and japanese martial arts which is he think not as wide but have great training and clear direction.

just some thought.