taiji mantis form clip

[oasis]

This form is listed under the taiji internal section of this site, but I presume it’s taiji (meihua) tanglang. It’s about 9MB. I’m not a mantis practitioner, so I can’t really comment on it, but it looks interesting :)

Right click and save:
http://www.jiayo.com/videos/taiji_tanglangquan.mpg

any thoughts mantis108? ;)

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks oasis for posting this.
Finally everyone can see what the Taji meihua Beng Bu form looks like.
For those who do the more well known 7* version it may take some watching before you see your form in there.

I suspect that this form, though not a new version, is not a very old version.
In other words I think it had some moves added to it, which makes it much longer than the 7* version.

But one thing you notice is that the final move is the waist chop, it is near the end of the 7* version.
I have long suspected that this was the last move of the original Beng Bu.
I have no proof though.

I also think this is one way of doing one of the "7 Longs"
called "yao bu ru shou"
Shaking step enter hands.

[mantis108]

This is a Taiji Praying Mantis form. It is a version of Bengbu done by the Son of Sun De who has a few VCDs out in the market. Please note that Sun De and Sun Delong are not the same the same person. They are from different styles as well. I am not sure of Sun De's lineage but it is mostly likely of Jiang Hualong-Song Zide line IMHO.

There is an obvious difference in the interpretation of the form(s) between the father and the son.

This clip as far as I am concern has a huge artistic licensing on the son's (Sun Qibun ?) part. I suppose he does it for competition or market demand purposes. I once commented about it on my forum that it is IMHO more show than substance. I honest think that he doesn't take the application aspect into account while performing the form. Personally, it is a very disheartening thing that traditional form would come to this state.

While I appreciate their effort in bringing TJPM out in the open, I couldn't help but wonder the status quo in presenting TCMA material in mainland MA video production. It is totally understandable with this example that why some people think that Kung Fu is nothing more than a dance. I have been told that they are very nice people. Perhaps my comments would be considered harsh. I am a firm believer in bitter medicine is better medicine. I love TJPM as a combative art. I would like to see it going forward and excel. It is most sad when it remains a status quo.

Regards

Mantis108

[EarthDragon]

Beautiful form, just one question. I noticed that he started his form facing one direction then ended facing another. While I am not a tai chi mantis practioner so this may be correct. But in ba bu and Wu stlye we end up where we start. Could you please explain. thank you ED

[Prairie]

Thank you for posting the link to that video. Although I've seen praying mantis forms done before, I've not seen any taiji praying mantis.

Bye for Now,
Michelle

[ursa major]

Very interesting clip thx for posting it Oasis.

I am unfamiliar with TJPM can anyone comment if there is a 'southern' influence in this version of Beng Bu?

Best regards,
UM.

[mantis108]

Hi Tainan,

Great info. Thanks for sharing that. :)

<<<But one thing you notice is that the final move is the waist chop, it is near the end of the 7* version.
I have long suspected that this was the last move of the original Beng Bu.
I have no proof though.>>>

CCK TCPM is similar to the 7 Star version which doesn't end with the waist chop. BTW, I think what is known as waist chop today is more of a variation of Yuhuan Shou. I believe the waist chop is like the way you showed me in the Mimen Lanjie. It depends on the depth (how close you are to the opponent) and the application changes slightly. The ideal IMHO is to achieve bending the back of the opponent "forcing" his face toward the sky.

In our version, we end with mandarin duck kick and Bi Shi. This will bring us back to where we started but end up not facing the front like we started. It is like a "T" sharp. I suspect the reason that both CCK TCPM and 7 Stars versions end not with the waist chop, but with other moves bring the exponent of the form back to where he started, has to do with the fact that there is a Ling Side to it. This works particularly well if it is performed in front of an audience. It is most clear and tidy.

<<<I also think this is one way of doing one of the "7 Longs"
called "yao bu ru shou"
Shaking step enter hands.>>>

I agreed and I think the other way is in our Sau Fa first section "Hai Di Qu Bao". The difference is changing height/level.

Hi ED,

Bengbu is a beautiful and very practical form. That's why it is so popular and has so many versions. As I have said before, the starting and the end positions form a "T" at the same spot. I believe the reason is that traditionally, mantis open and close with Yuhuan bu. Openning move finishes with bizhou and 2 hooks. Ending move finishes with Yuhuan Shou and/or waist chop. This would brings the body sideway facing. So without adding moves( the grand finale is the takedown) it is logical to end facing the side IMHO.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[EarthDragon]

Thank you mantis 108, as always a well informed and great explanation of the question asked. shay shay

[B.Tunks]

Actually, i think from memory they are brothers.
b.t

[mantis108]

Thanks for the info. I am not acquainted with them. Sorry if I have cause confusion for others.

I appreciate the correction. Thanks

Mantis108

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by Kai Uwe Pel

On a larger scale this trend (i.e. artistic performance based dancing) is becoming more the norm in mainland China. Although they are out there, good traditional teachers, who have not decreased the combative value of their system are becoming harder and harder find.


Thats true! Last weekend I could have a taste what will happen, when so called Masters teach there students to fight in the same way as they teach them artistic forms:
on a tournament in Germany I saw students perform forms with more than 60% sidekicks! When they start in fighting competition they do exactly the same! But not with power and a good eye for the situation! No, they start jumping all the time on one feet and the other leg was bend and snaping without control.

It was ridiculous! :mad:

[Tainan Mantis]

mantis108,
As soon as I saw this form the first thought I had is,
"Hey I wonder if this is Sun De's student he does the form almost exactly the same way, with the same type of body motion."

About the waist chop:
Your version as well as the similar 7* version follow a similar path all the way up until the waist chop at which point your two versions differ radically in the finish.

I believe, but could be wrong, that differnt versions of waist chop as well as jade ring hands, figure 10 hands etc are different ways of doing yao bu ru shou.

I don't think they perform this way to be artistic, that is how their branch of mantis moves.

ED,
In many of the old forms of Meihua and Taiji Mantis you end up in a different location facing different from the direction you started, so it is traditional in that respect.

Ursa,
There is no apparent southern influence in this version of Beng Bu.

Kai Uwe Pel,
This version of Beng Bu differs greatly from the CCK TJPM version you saw.
They were propogated by different students of Liang Xue Xiang which is around 100 years ago.

Move for move this is quite accurate in the Jiang Hua Long- Song Zi De lineage version of Beng Bu.
Though the body motion is not the same as other branches of Mantis.

I don't know what kind of fighter Sun De is, but he has some video of his fighting method which completely utilizes this type of motion.
It shouldn't be too hard to imagine in comparison to some of the good Taiji fighters who also don't perform their forms in a combative manner.

[mantis108]

Wow really good dynamics going with this thread. I think we have touched on some issues that merit their own thread. Anyway, I would like to address some of your comments.

Hi Ursa,

I almost forgot to address your question. I agreed with Tainan that there is no "modern" southern influence as seen in the clip. We can open a different thread for this if you are interested in my thoughts on this.

Hi Sifu Pel,

I am so glad to hear that you have met Alexander Tse. Thank you very much for your thoughts with keen observations on the CCK TCPM material and your poignant insights of the current state of CMA. I can say that we share mutual opinions.

Great to hear your views, always. :)

Hi German Bailung,

You have brought up a great subject for discussion. I think we can open a thread for that.

Hi Tainan,

I first thought that the 2 Sun are least teacher and student. I can see similar body mechanic in both but then Sun Qibun, the one in the clip, seems at time frailing and there are times where the leading leg's knee of the Xiao Shi (minor stance) is locked! I think that is a sign where the balance is lost and the straightening is an attempt to regain control of the wild swing of the upper body lead by the wild motion of the arms. From what I saw in the clip, I would think his fighting style is a brawler style. This is actually something I have notice in the literature coming out of the mainland Wushu scene. There are publications in an authoritive voice that stated Tanglang is "only allow to run the waist but not move the hip". I think this is being exaggrated to the point that this results in the demonstration shown. This is soon to be a classic great myth about power generation in Tanglang.

Thanks for the info on Yao Bu Ru Shou. I agreed with your observation. :)

Warm regards to all

Mantis108

[mantis108]

I just found some info on a Japanese Mantis site that Sun De would be from Cui Shoushan line.

http://tanglang.csidenet.com

Cui Shoushan (1890-1969 CE) was a student of Song Zide. He also wrote a manuscript based on Song Zide's manuscript. This is according to the article of Ilya profatilov and also my other contact in Mainland.

BTW, Wang Yifu's article, which is supposedly Hsing Hsiao Dao Ren's Shaolin Athentics, shared many comment aspects with Cui Shoushan's manuscript.

Mantis108

[puja]

I don't know the 7* version of beng bu very well but the tjpm beng bu in this clip is very different to our (taiji meihua) beng bu.

puja

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I have that VCD. I can scan the front and back cover for you Chinese readers if it helps. The VCD also show apps for the moves. Nothing hard core though, takedowns seem a bit soft as I recall. Reminded me of a schoolyard fight where you just push each other down and only your ego and backside get hurt. Nobody ever shows the good stuff on a tape or VCD. I prefer face first landings, twisting and torqueing the body in unatural ways, dropping body weight on limbs, etc. but then I have a bit of a cruel side.

So the consensus is that's it's been Shu'd (delete the Wu and leave the Shu)?