Alan Orr NHB Wing Chun Clip [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Mr Punch

03-23-2004, 03:43 AM

Not knocking Mr Orr's skills or anything, just a couple of questions based on the big clip on the site...

Why the practise against a wall? Is that to simulate a cage? Ropes? Cos you can get bounce off either but not off a wall.

The guy against the wall is maybe one-quarter-heartedly 'hitting' back with centreline chain punches. I appreciate the usual 'It's a demo' kind of thing, but it would be refreshing to see a realistic/practical demo sometimes... remember the old resisting opponent thing?! in a street situation, I want to be even more sure that I've got control over the guy's position if he's against a wall, otherwise he's pushing off it like an olympic swimmer on the turn, trained or no.

The big guy's guard is non-existant. Why? If it's sport you'll get your head knocked off. If it's the street you might be lucky, depending on the usual factors (environment, training, reactions, preparedness etc etc). But basically, if you don't finish the fight with the first-wave attack and you don't have a guard up, expect to get your bells rung.

I'm not much of a grappler, but I suspect I could get arm bars at will from guard with that kind of g n p going on. aaron b, what makes you say the words 'ground and pound and body control' in the same breath?

Also I don't know if it was just the video quality/screen size but his shadow boxing seemed to come straight from thhose impressive shoulders. Now, I'm not saying that using strength isn't gonna help, and, I couldn't see his hip/leg/root position particularly but, he seemed stiffer and slower than your average (or below?) boxer. When I shadow box using wing chun, I try to utilise its fluidity, combined with a solid root, from footwork which I change every couple of shots, to work on linking and delinking the connections from my root to my fist.

Like I said, not knocking, just wondering...

aaron b

03-23-2004, 05:06 AM

hello mat...thankyou for the comments....

the wall demo is really a chi sau demo with a bit of extra intention compared to the usual chi sau that i have seen...it isnt what would happpen in a street situation as you know...it is just a taster of some of our chi sau, put on the dvd for people to see, to get a taste of how we train. It might be hard to se, but sifu is contnually delinking, linking, floating, spitting me etc....he really is controlling me throughout...as such there is no "normal' looking guard as you would have in a face to face match up....as you know chi sau is continually changing and flowing from technique to technique.....its just a flowing drill not a real fight.....but we thought people who have not seen much wing chun may like to see what we do. In his series on Body Structure Sparring the stand up aspect is covered in more detail, (this DVD is really about strking on the ground)...and there as you'd expect, there is more use of a normal looking guard...otherwise 'bang' your out, as you know.

Everything we do comes from the hips....without hip power you have very little....as you know the shoulder is more a avenue for the power to flow through from the floor via the hips and out throught the fist. Sifus Sparring series shows this thoroughly and if you have read anything about the Chu Sau Lei system it will explain in a lot more detail...please go to our website mat at www.alanorr.com and there are many articles talking about this....

Believe me ive tried to put arm bars on in the grapple, but when you use the hips to pin the opponent on the floor it bloody hard. Its this aspect that really is the crux of the DVD really, not submission or standup but pinning and controlling the guy on the floor with hip power and then striking with the weight of your body, crushing him. Rather than just being in his guard and striking with round punches like i see so much even in the top flight UFC....the DVD covers what happens if you strike across centre line on the floor, with no hip control...you get taken in for chokes, arm bars etc....there are no submissions shown on the DVD, just ways to tenderise you opponent before applying the submission.....which is always good fun!

Thanks for the comments rather than knocking mat....we all learn from a healthy discussion...

aaron b

yuanfen

03-23-2004, 08:10 AM

I never thought that I would say this- but I agree with knifefighters comment on this thread...even though I have disagreed with him on other things and threads.

I am NOT questioning anyone's personal skills- but what is someone supposed to learn from that video clip?
Where's the art or where's the reality?Neither one.

A real fight is a real fight and there are darn few movies of real fights. UFC, pics of rooftop encounters, NHB videos, gloves on sparring-IMO are sometimes sport and sometimes contrived simulations.

Shadowboxer

03-23-2004, 08:52 AM

I would have liked to have seen/heard some of Sifu Orr's theory about what he is doing that is different instead of a "highlight" clip because I can't really tell what he's doing by that 1:40 minute clip. Some of it looks familiar though (we do a drill where we have to get out of a corner). I'm still curious though and Rene has good things to say about Sifu Orr. Perhaps you should take a whole minute or so from the DVD as your "trailer" ?

Knifefighter

03-23-2004, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by Mat
Why the practise against a wall? Practicing against a wall is a good thing. It is excellent practice for fighting in a cage, where you will often be in a MMA fight. It is also a good simulation for what happens often in a real-life encounter when you are pushed up (or push someone up) against a barrier.

Originally posted by Mat
The guy against the wall is maybe one-quarter-heartedly 'hitting' back with centreline chain punches. I appreciate the usual 'It's a demo' kind of thing, but it would be refreshing to see a realistic/practical demo sometimes... remember the old resisting opponent thing?! in a street situation, I want to be even more sure that I've got control over the guy's position if he's against a wall, otherwise he's pushing off it like an olympic swimmer on the turn, trained or no.

I'm not much of a grappler, but I suspect I could get arm bars at will from guard with that kind of g n p going on. aaron b, what makes you say the words 'ground and pound and body control' in the same breath? Those would be some of my concerns as a potential customer. I'd like to see that stuff in a MMA environment against someone with a decent BJJ guard.

As far as G & P, if that Russian guy, Fedor, ever puts out an instructional series, count me in.

old jong

03-23-2004, 02:37 PM

I will have to give a split decision to that clip.

Firstly: It shows things that have been seen on each and every UFC or Pride since the beginning of the MMA era. I'm sure these things will work in the format...They are the same!...The guy's will win or lose like any MMA's fighter.Sometimes the G&P win sometimes the submission guy win. Nothing to revolutionate the sport.

Secondly:Even if the techniques look O.K. There are countless tapes on the market about NHB fighting.I think about Mario Sperry's tapes who must have a million times more material on them. There are so many out there to chose from,and all by NHB specialists,(good or bad!).I know something. If a tooth hurts,I will go see a dentist,not a foot doctor.

KingMonkey

03-23-2004, 03:01 PM

I have no axe to grind with Alan or what he is trying to do but that trailer was terrible. It should come with a health warning to anyone who suffers from epilepsy.
Couldnt really make any determination about whether I liked what I saw.

KenWingJitsu

03-23-2004, 05:53 PM

Hard to get the full gist of the series form that clip, but, couple of things...first kudos to the actual making of this type of seroes. I noticed some WC on the ground; stuff I do, like lop pak as you strike from guard.

But, any kind of chi-sao, modified or not, has no place in such a series. WHy? cos clinch happens. The wall stuff is interesting & similar to a boxing covering drill, but it was done too "lazily" and not a clear goal it seemed. A little more pressure (from both sides) and perhaps an objective...(e.g. get clinch, get takedown, escape from the wall, etc) would have made it more beneficial.

Still, I definitely would like to see the whole series.

Alan Orr

03-23-2004, 05:57 PM

Hi guys,

I would have to say that from an outsider's point of view, I could agree with some of your points.

Firstly, we only put the trailer up as something for people to see. I would agree that it would be very hard, if not impossible to really see the difference in what I am showing on the DVD compared to other schools of thought, from the posted clip. I would like to emphasise that the clip was in no way intended to be instructional, but it was simply a taster. Also, many people have emailed me and liked the clip very much, so this illustrates that everyone has different views.

As someone who has an extensive background in Wing Chun and grappling, I too, like you guys very much question most people's Wing Chun skill/ability in general. The system of Wing Chun I teach is very different to what is generally understood/practiced in Wing Chun circles. Our methods of body structure within our Wing Chun mean our Wing Chun has a more functional nature and is geared more for realistic self defence than most. Now, I also believe, as I'm sure you do as well, that even if an art is based on street self defence/street fighting, it should still be able to hold its own in a glove/sport environment, even though many of the tools are removed.

Again these are my opinions.

Obviously the important factor of any martial art is that the core of the art is robust enough to deal with many environments. Therefore, sport aspects are good at testing this side of the training. I believe that most Wing Chun falls down in this environment, that's why I produced the Body Structure Sparring series, to show a more functional application of the Wing Chun system that I practice and teach. My teacher, Robert Chu's methods are the best kept secret in Wing Chun, this is because many people don't really want to improve their Wing Chun, they just want to pass on what they have been taught. I am not questioning the reasons or factors, but this is very common in Wing Chun circles.

I would say that from my experience in real figting/Wing Chun/grappling and so on, that I would be one of the best people to introduce a different way of looking at training Wing Chun. Therefore, this current DVD is really showing the progressiveness of our Body Structure methods within different fighting environments. The ideas and concepts shown in this DVD are completely different to most people's current methods. From an outsider's point of view without really seeing a full explanation of the differences when using Body Structure, it may be hard to see the full picture.

So, on the whole the reason for me releasing these DVD's/Video's is because I often have the same types of feelings that you guys are expressing.

I will shortly post some instructional clips for you guys to check out. But again, without the full progression of the tapes/DVDs it is not always easy to see the full benefit and development of the system. But, I am sure that when you see some of the Body Structure ideas, you will better understand the methods and differences of the system.

If it helps to know, I have had great feedback from people who have seen the Body Structure series and NHB DVD.

Many people have come to realise that Wing Chun without Body Structure would have great trouble against a good grappler. As I also grapple, I have always known this and that is why after finding the Body Structure method, I thought others like me would be interested in strengthening their Wing Chun with these methods. Without the Body Structure methods I would not have continued training within Wing Chun.

One thing I would also say is after releasing my first series, many people travelled from all over Europe and the UK to train with me. They were surprised at how deep and even more powerful these methods are first hand. It is always very hard to pick up these nuances, even on a DVD/Video.

Again, I understand your comments, but I for one would never pass opinion on something I had not completely seen first hand. I share your passion for martial arts and I am merely trying to contribute to the Wing Chun community.

Regards,

Alan

old jong

03-23-2004, 07:10 PM

The system of Wing Chun I teach is very different to what is generally understood/practiced in Wing Chun circles. Our methods of body structure within our Wing Chun mean our Wing Chun has a more functional nature and is geared more for realistic self defence than most.

Here we go again with the "My lineage is better/we have secret techniques/closed door/we know...you don't/ETC ETC/ comments that give Wing Chun a bad reputation and make it's practitioners look like a bunch of headless chickens. :mad:

There are no secrets.The so called "structure" is developped in SLT and Chum Kiu (If learned well) That's all. Good for you if you cultivate good body structure but,it's there in the system for all to take.
No bad feelings.;)

BTW,I'm looking forward for the other clips you talk about.They may give a better view on what you do.I'm open for that.

Alan Orr

03-23-2004, 07:40 PM

Hi Michel

RE your post:

Here we go again with the "My lineage is better/we have secret techniques/closed door/we know...you don't/ETC ETC/ comments that give Wing Chun a bad reputation and make it's practitioners look like a bunch of headless chickens.

Reply:

I did say it was only my opinion, also its on my tapes so no secrets from me.

Re your post:

There are no secrets.The so called "structure" is developped in SLT and Chum Kiu (If learned well) That's all. Good for you if you cultivate good body structure but,it's there in the system for all to take.
No bad feelings.

Reply:

That is true if it is understood correctly of course. All I was saying in my opinion it is not always the case. Thats not being personal or saying my lineage is better. Thats just what I have seen after many years of checking out Wing Chun, an art I love very much. I like my teachers saying ' Let function rule over form' Its not about lineage in any way. Just improving and having an open mind.

I have never posted any comments on a person or anyones style of Wing Chun. I think all feedback and views are of interest. I feel 'Knifefighter' has often made valued ideas if you are looking at some of the Wing Chun out there, but not all. It is just is view so far, no problem with that.

You see, these all just our views to be shared and learned from.

Regards

Alan

old jong

03-23-2004, 08:13 PM

Alan!
Your explanations are well recieved. All the best and good luck with your projects.
sincerely.

Mckind13

03-24-2004, 12:26 AM

Hey Gang,

I just reviewed the first section of the NHB DVD.

As always the production is well done.

Within the body of the tape, many of the snippets you see in the lead in to the video and on the Internet clip are expanded.

I like the instructional format of demonstrating and explaining a drill, followed by a section that focuses on a vital parts of the drill that are sort of the lynch pin to that exercise.

Alan is always very articulate and his students give very good energy to help keep the drill moving and on target.

The body methods and use of structure when striking are right on and almost identical to the methods I teach here in San Diego. I am very glad Alan is releasing these tapes to increase people’s awareness of the Chu Sau Lei method of WCK as well as a way to get people talking and training in a more robust fashion.

David

Mr Punch

03-24-2004, 06:07 AM

Thanks for your very full replies Aaron b and Alan Orr.

That using the hips to pin someone on the floor is obviously something I'd have to feel. I couldn't really get past the usual claims of 'this'll be something no NHB fighter'll wanna be without' on the site, so I'll have another try to find the useful info later. Again not knocking, just tired! I know you've got to sell it in a competitive and particularly sceptical world.

I would hope that all of my punches are using the hip effectively. When I am showing people basic punches I always make this usage clear from day one. I would hope it isn't a secret!

Aaron, couldn't really see anything other than centreline chain punches, or repeated centreline mid-level chain hand positions anyway on the bit against the wall. Looking back at it again I can see more of Alan's control, but there were plenty of opportunities, even in demo mode to keep the drill more live, and slip the odd out-of-rhythm/hooking/different level attack. Is that how you usually play chi sao, one hand replacing the other? Again, just wondering.

Knifefighter, I know the reasons why one would practise chi sao or sparring against a wall, but was questioning the relevance to NHB fighting. Not so many fights are in cages. Most tournaments, especially local ones, are in rings are they not? Plus, the cage has enough spring to make it different to a wall doesn't it? Wouldn't fancy getting my face rammed into one but if it's my back it has more advantage than getting slammed into a wall, however slight. the other point I was wondering about was that if it were for 'reality' fighting I would prefer to practise what to do if I were stuck against the wall, not if I were ramming somebody else there. From my experience, your back against a wall can be a valuable ally if you know how to use it, and also from experience, it's pretty bloody easy to control somebody who doesn't have the experience against a wall.

Anyway, Alan and Aaron's answers that it was just an example of chi sao have kind of made the question less relevant, but not entirely irrelevant.

Knifefighter

03-24-2004, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by Alan Orr
Again, I understand your comments, but I for one would never pass opinion on something I had not completely seen first hand. I share your passion for martial arts and I am merely trying to contribute to the Wing Chun community.Unfortunately, about the only way most of us have to see the material "first hand" is to send you money.

black and blue

03-24-2004, 07:27 AM

LOL :D

old jong

03-24-2004, 12:12 PM

Alan
You must put a few examples of your teaching in video. Not just a teaser. We want to see!...;)

Alan Orr

03-24-2004, 04:12 PM

Hi Michal

I am on the case. I will hope to have some teaching clips up soon.

Hi Matt

Re:I would hope that all of my punches are using the hip effectively. When I am showing people basic punches I always make this usage clear from day one. I would hope it isn't a secret!

Reply:

I know what your saying, but from what I understand their are many ways to punch from the hip, so it just depends which way you are doing it. In general boxing uses the hip, but its a high centred hip power and therefore it is easy to be taken down, if punching in that maner. It is very powerful, but this of course as boxing is a great sport where takedowns are not allowed. Some Wing Chun styles punch more from the hip but do not root the ground well, thats is also a problem. So its really about knowing how to use the hip in a way that deals with these ideas.

Re Matt's:

Aaron, couldn't really see anything other than centreline chain punches, or repeated centreline mid-level chain hand positions anyway on the bit against the wall. Looking back at it again I can see more of Alan's control, but there were plenty of opportunities, even in demo mode to keep the drill more live, and slip the odd out-of-rhythm/hooking/different level attack. Is that how you usually play chi sao, one hand replacing the other? Again, just wondering.

Reply:

This was just some bits all put together with no order or structure, its just an intro and doesn't really show any teaching. We will try to put something up soon.

Re Matt's
Knifefighter, I know the reasons why one would practise chi sao or sparring against a wall, but was questioning the relevance to NHB fighting

Reply

I put on a demo of our Chi Sao (with I will put up on the site soon) and then explan that this is a way to train awareness and so on, but we can use the ideas in clinch training which we show next on the DVD. This is just because many guys in the clinch just trade rather that gain control. So its hard to make a call on these things as they are part of two tapes of progression. Our Chi Sao demo is all out with control of the power, but it is totally freeplay. When you see the whole footage of it then you can see the intro is just lots of cuts from the DVD. The Chi Sao is just for your fun.

Well I hope that helps.

Best regards

Alan

KenWingJitsu

03-24-2004, 05:49 PM

Alan, I think you're dissecting the corpse on hip pnching a tad too much. A punch is a punch. Allt his hip talk is boring and inconsequential. no punch is better at defending a takedown than any other, your takedown defense is the only thing that will defend tyou form takedowns.

Also as for the "my system of body puching is better than yours....." save it man. Thats Wing Chun BS and has no place in this kind of thread or video series. The best thing about this tape series is that you made it. Using it to promote your "lineage" will leave a bad taste in many mouths. I think you should focus more on the techniques you're teaching and how to overcome the many aspects of what could happen in a mixed fight.

Knifefighter

03-24-2004, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Alan, I think you're dissecting the corpse on hip pnching a tad too much. A punch is a punch. Allt his hip talk is boring and inconsequential. no punch is better at defending a takedown than any other, your takedown defense is the only thing that will defend tyou form takedowns. KWJ-
On the other hand, you and I both know that there are ways to throw punches that make it harder to be taken down, such as throwing while moving in a back/lateral direction. So, there could be the possibility of him being on to something. That's why it's so important for his methods to be tested and documented in the observable laboratory of MMA/NHB fighting.

Ultimatewingchun

03-24-2004, 07:38 PM

Dhira (KWJ);

Let me tell a story here - at a private instructors seminar given by William Cheung some 8 years ago maybe...I brought one of my top students with me - and at one point striking vs. takedowns came up - my guy had a wrestling and karate background before wing chun and wanted to cover up like a peek-a-boo boxer...get close, put his head down, and charge William Cheung going for a double leg - his point being that he was willing to "take a shot" in order to get in and get the takedown...

So picture Cheung in a left (side body) neutral side stance and Mike comes in like I described with his right leg leading having to settle for a single leg on Cheung's left leg...because Gm Cheung releases his right foot and steps it back so he is now in a left front boxing type stance with some distance between his feet - helping to brace against the forward momentum being thrown at him---jams his right palm into the top of Mike's lowered head - (basically meant to slow him down just a little and control his head movement) - while hitting him with three very fast back-to-back downward chops with the ridge of his left hand right on the back of the skull just past the last bone (occipital process) - where there is a major weak point...

Mike drove him back against the wall - but was almost knocked out (and clearly getting the worst of it) when GM Cheung decided to stop....he could have gone on hitting him - and knock him out (without being taken down)...but didn't.

A very enlightening experience - yes..strikes CAN work in certain instances against takedowns (and I've seen other variations besides this one)...BUT DON'T COUNT ON THEM WORKING ALL THE TIME...

Supposing the wall wasn't there to brace William?...supposing Mike therefore could have survived long enough to take him down?

I came away convinced more than ever thinking it's a false choice between strikes as takedown defenses and grappling defenses vs. grappling takedowns...YOU BETTER HAVE A HEALTHY MIX OF BOTH IN YOUR ARSENAL.

Knifefighter

03-24-2004, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
- my guy had a wrestling and karate background before wing chun and wanted to cover up like a peek-a-boo boxer...get close, put his head down, and charge William Cheung going for a double leg - his point being that he was willing to "take a shot" in order to get in and get the takedown...
It always cracks me up when people talk about a wrestler being prevented from taking someone down by strikes after "rushing in with his head down." This is always a sign of either a bogus story or a guy claiming to have a wrestling background when he didn't actually have one.

The rushing in with the head down is a dead giveaway because this is exactly the opposite of how a double leg is taught.

Double leg takedowns are done by:
- Setting up the takedown by putting the opponent out of position with feints, arm control, and/or distractions.
- Penetrating from a "1/2 man" position.
- Changing levels.
- Always keeping the head up.
- Turning the corner for the finish.

As far as ending up with the single and driving back into the wall, it also shows either a bogus story or a fake claim of wrestling experience. Single legs are finished with a circular movement, not a forward driving movement. A freestyle wrestler who secures a single will only find it easier to dump someone who attempts to strike his head.

chisauking

03-24-2004, 08:21 PM

A very enlightening experience - yes..strikes CAN work in certain instances against takedowns (and I've seen other variations besides this one)...BUT DON'T COUNT ON THEM WORKING ALL THE TIME...

Can you guarantee all your techniques working all the time?

Supposing the wall wasn't there to brace William?...supposing Mike therefore could have survived long enough to take him down?

Supposing William Cheung decided to hit with full force to the back of his neck… Supposing he decided to use an elbow smash to his neck instead, using his body’s falling weight… Supposing four other fighters jump Cheung from the sides… Then what? Let’s face it, if an opponent is willing to get hit in order to get in, and he can withstand your most powerful palms & elbow smashes to the back of his head, you are going to be in deep ding dong regardless whether you are standing or on the ground. In such a scenario, forget the ground work – just concentrate on the legwork – RUN!

Ultimatewingchun

03-24-2004, 09:43 PM

KF:

Yeah...What was that you said about liking to be an anal-munous rabble rouser with a big mouth...? Steve Ewing? Or are you the other guy?

A) there's no such thing as putting Wm Cheung out of position with feints, arm control, or distractions...his ability to focus entirely ONLY on body parts that really MEAN something when they move is second to none...check out only watching elbows (and attacking them) and only watching knees - the next time you get tired of whatever it is you do...

B) Mike hid the dive for the legs until the last second...didn't matter...

C) the change of levels was observed and docketed for the same reasons given above...

D) yes...Mike turned the corner - to no avail...

E) the head had to go down in the end otherwise we're not talking about a leg attack...then are we?

F) "securing" the single was the key phrase in your sentence...he was stopped short of fully securing it...Cheung attacked into the attack...

G) Won't even answer the "bogus" routine you like to pull...anal-munously... Remember, I went back on line without being asked... many pages later...in the Connecting Wing Chun w/Grappling thread to say that you were right about not being able to pull off a double-wristlock while being punched at from the mount - if I had something to hide about my wrestling skill Iwouldn't do that...now would I? Was thinking out loud about experimenting while being caught in the mount..you tried to pick up the ball and take it in for a touchdown...Do you need to score that badly?

How about posting a video clip that Sifu Abel showed a still of...wherein you're fighting someone? So we can check you out?

Knifefighter

03-24-2004, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Won't even answer the "bogus" routine you like to pull...anal-munously... Dude, chill out... I'm not saying you are making up a bogus story. Your student was probably overstating his wrestling backgound. He probably wrestled as an alternate on his high school freshman team. Based on your knowledge of takedown technique, I can see how you would be fooled by him.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
there's no such thing as putting Wm Cheung out of position with feints, arm control, or distractions...Now that one, I will call bogus on... or at least brainwashed into thinking something that is that ludicrous. World class competitive wrestlers, who are the best in the world at preventing take downs, get put out of position by feints, arm control, and distractions all the time. Are you saying he is better than they are? If so, he should have had no trouble in keeping Botzwhathisname from taking him down, shouldn't he?

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
the head had to go down in the end otherwise we're not talking about a leg attack...then are we?Nope... the head always stays up. It's part of how you use leverage to get the take down.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
yes...Mike turned the corner - to no avail...If he didn't get the double, he couldn't have turned the corner. You can't do that until you have secured the legs.

Knifefighter

03-24-2004, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
...Was thinking out loud about experimenting while being caught in the mount..you tried to pick up the ball and take it in for a touchdown...Do you need to score that badly? Not at all... as I made no comment about your dumb "vertical elbow to the groin" technique and how it is impossible to throw against someone who understands the mechanics of maintaining the mounted position.

Ultimatewingchun

03-24-2004, 10:50 PM

Okay...here we go again...but this time - no answering what doesn't have to be answered:

A) Since you offer no evidence why the downward elbow can be stopped other than to say it's impossible to do...I just simply rest my case again...

B) He got the single (somewhat) - but was jammed and his head was being forced down by Cheung's right palm...tried to turn to his left while attempting to lift the leg (and remember - by now he was starting to get hit in a vulnerable place)...picked it up off the floor just slightly as he tried to turn to his left...only managed to push Cheung back slightly and into the wall that was about two feet to Cheung's left...Why did it go in that direction?...Cheung was giving counter force to Mike's left turn with his left leg/foot - while pushing Mike's head in that direction with his right and chopping down on the back of Mike's had with his left hand ridge...

C) Now...about the brainwashing thing...Do I have to really?!..Oh well...

I'm around the man literally 20 years...Mike has been around me and Wm Cheung since 1989...We have both SEEN him NOT be fooled time and time again...and we have learned to a significant extent how not to be fooled also...by feints, distractions, etc...Is it perfect? NO...Is it the best radar system I've ever seen...Without a doubt...Is Cheug REALLY AMAZING at it - oh yeah...he (we) can do it against very fast feints and movements that precede fast jabs and hooks.(and succeed in stopping the punches or deflecting them by watching and attacking the elbow of the punching hand) - countless times...much harder to see than someone trying to disguise an entire shift of level to go for a takedown...that's no bull...I've READ both situations successfully time and again...

So now once again I'm going to ask you...Steve Ewing? Dale? Post the video of your fight so we can see what you know?...Instead of changing the subject...Okay?

Knifefighter

03-25-2004, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Since you offer no evidence why the downward elbow can be stopped other than to say it's impossible to do...I just simply rest my case again... The downward elbow strike is pretty much useless because the person in the mounted position will drop his hips down while grapevining his legs to maintain the mount, rather than raising up as you had thought. The basic idea is to clamp the hips down onto the opponent's body while posting out with the arms to maintain the top position. This pretty much hides and protects all the valuables down there. While you could possibly reach in and grab something with a hand, you can't access the groin with the elbow when this happens.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
He got the single (somewhat) - but was jammed and his head was being forced down by Cheung's right palm...tried to turn to his left while attempting to lift the leg (and remember - by now he was starting to get hit in a vulnerable place)...picked it up off the floor just slightly as he tried to turn to his left...only managed to push Cheung back slightly and into the wall that was about two feet to Cheung's left...Why did it go in that direction?...Cheung was giving counter force to Mike's left turn with his left leg/foot - Once again, by this description of the takedown, someone didn't (or doesn't) know much about takedowns- for a couple of reasons:
1- A wrestler who can't secure the single will usually switch back to the double or move around to a high crotch.
2- Chueng is giving counter force to a circular motion to his (Cheung's) right with his left leg. Wow! He can defy the laws of physics. He could make a bunch of money teaching this single leg counter at Olympic wrestling training camps.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
(and succeed in stopping the punches or deflecting them by watching and attacking the elbow of the punching hand) - countless times...much harder to see than someone trying to disguise an entire shift of level to go for a takedown...that's no bull...Really now? And how exactly is it that you think someone "disguises" thier level changes?

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
So now once again I'm going to ask you...Steve Ewing? Dale? Post the video of your fight so we can see what you know?...Instead of changing the subject...Okay? Ah, the old "post your fight videos" strategey. :rolleyes: Seems to always come out whenever they get pizzed because they are are unable to debate about technical aspects in a knowledgeable manner and are at risk of being exposed in areas about which they are pretending to be more knowlegeable than they really are.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
I've READ both situations successfully time and again... Yeah, you probably have. The only problem is it is with your students who obviously have very limited wrestling experience.

Ultimatewingchun

03-25-2004, 07:26 AM

Dale...Steve:

Just post the video. No more federal prosecutor routine trying to cross-examine people on the witness stand. Just come out of the shadows.................... and POST THE VIDEO.

Knifefighter

03-25-2004, 09:02 AM

Hahaha... I already waste enough time here arguing with numbnutz like you. Not going to waste more time digitizing my fights and posting them to a server.

Want to have an intelligent debate about the technical aspects about things that I have an intimate knowledge of, such as wrestling takedonws? Great. Want to ***** and moan about me posting a video? Now you're the one wasting his time.

Ultimatewingchun

03-25-2004, 09:33 AM

Dale Frank?...Steve Ewing?:

You mis-stated the situation with Wm Cheung - anyone can go back and re read the post and see that it was clear that Cheung was moving to his left - not his right....anyone can go back and reread the Connecting Wing Chunw/Grappling thread and see that you also changed the original scenario about the downward elbow strike...

Come on now...you're gonna bolt out of here that fast? You'll be fine - you're amoungst friends - you did wing chun back in the day - we understand that your instructor may not have been any good and you didn't learn anything valuable...But please - show us some of what you've got..We're all curious now?

Knifefighter

03-25-2004, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
You mis-stated the situation with Wm Cheung - anyone can go back and re read the post and see that it was clear that Cheung was moving to his left - not his right.... Then once again, this shows that someone was pretty clueless about takedowns. Working for a single on the right leg requires that the attacker step back and force the defender to the defender's right.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
...anyone can go back and reread the Connecting Wing Chunw/Grappling thread and see that you also changed the original scenario about the downward elbow strike...I believe you said you bumped the top guy up forcing him to plant his hands (as this was your original misguided attempt to apply the wristlock from the bottom). I believe you said that he raised up, allowing you to strike with the elbow which "never misses".

Yeah, that seems to be pretty much it. Here are some of your comments on landing the elbows:
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
...Immediately after I bridged, turned, and threw him slightly over my right shoulder - he had no choice but to lift his groin up off my body in order to avoid being completely rolled...and as he began to post his left hand...

P.S. - It's almost impossible to "miss" with this move.

Ultimatewingchun

03-25-2004, 12:07 PM

Stevie baby...Dale, dude...

I'm not going back into the confused replay with you....more facts as they were originally stated again were changed...no..no...

If you don't want to show your hand....fine.

Later,

Ultimatewingchun

03-25-2004, 03:10 PM

So anyway...ah...Dhira (KWJ)...as I was saying...It's definitely best not to just rely on using striking technique to defend against takedowns - a healthy knowledge of sprawling, ****zers, and other grappling answers to takedowns is in order - not as a substitute to using moves like I described when discussing William Cheung - but in addition to them. Mistakes made by the grappler and sometimes just stealing the march with striking attacks and counter-attacks can also do the job - we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater...a well placed punch(es)elbow or palm strikes can sometimes end the takedown game very quickly.

Ultimatewingchun

03-25-2004, 03:14 PM

Dhira:

For some reason there's a censor on the word w_izzers...(h) is the missing letter.

old jong

03-25-2004, 03:37 PM

What is a whi zzer?...Is it the same as a pancake?...

Alan Orr

03-25-2004, 03:57 PM

Hi Guys

You guys have moved onto new areas of debate, thats cool. I would like to just answer 'KenWingJitsu' and then rest.

KenWingJitsu posted:

'Alan, I think you're dissecting the corpse on hip pnching a tad too much. A punch is a punch. Allt his hip talk is boring and inconsequential. no punch is better at defending a takedown than any other, your takedown defense is the only thing that will defend tyou form takedowns. '

Reply:

Thats fine. But we all can talk of 100 ways to do things. The structure of what we do was what I was talking about. I understand that as you have not seen what I am referring to, therefore it will be hard to comment accurately.

KenWingJitsu

'Also as for the "my system of body puching is better than yours....." save it man. Thats Wing Chun BS and has no place in this kind of thread or video series. The best thing about this tape series is that you made it. Using it to promote your "lineage" will leave a bad taste in many mouths. I think you should focus more on the techniques you're teaching and how to overcome the many aspects of what could happen in a mixed fight.'

Reply:

Firstly. I never actually said that. I was just explaining that we are different in application of Structure and method than other Wing Chun systems most of you guys have seen. Also I have said more than once, this is only my opinion. I have also said already that lineage is not what I am talking about. I even quoted my teachers moto ' let function rule over form'.

As we focus on structure rather than techniques, the function of structure is my guide to my technique.

I thought I should just clear that up.

My best to you all

Alan

Mr Punch

03-25-2004, 09:10 PM

Thanks for your answers Alan.

I would disagree on this... a good boxer has a good root too, and not a 'high centred hip power'. Sure the infamous 'good grappler' should be able to take the boxer down, but a 'good boxer' is no pushover. In fact given how flat-footed and stationary most of the WCers I've met are, I would say they are much easier to take down and have a much more dead root (if one at all).

But I was actually trying to agree with you about the hip-root connection, and was asking more about the use of the hips Aaron was talking about to pin someone on the floor. I appreciate this is a difficult concept to explain, so I may just have to :shrug: and keep training!!! :) but it interested me.

KenWingJitsu

03-25-2004, 10:07 PM

Victor, note I didnt say strikes cannot stop takedowns....I already know they can. But...what i said was "
no punch is better at defending a takedown than any other,"...meaning yes strikes can stop a takedown, but...no one way is better sinply because you use your hip or sink youre root or whatever.....

Mike drove him back against the wall - but was almost knocked out (and clearly getting the worst of it) when GM Cheung decided to stop
As for this, I would have loved to see it, but as far as I am concerned, being driven into a wall is a failure of stopping the takedown, you dont know (unless you were Mike) that he was "almost knocked out". They should have kept going till either the knockout or the takedown. I have seen similar attempts at full contact & full speed. The 'striker was driven back and was taken down...even when it was elbows being used to the same area behind the skull. I have tape of it :-)

Secondly, stopping a takedown AFTER INITIATION of the takedown is easy! (well easier lol) because you're waiting for it. personally I like the Jum sao to the brachial nerve of the neck/ collar bone when i'm "ready" for a takedown. I was talking about punching/chain punching or flurrying. When you are punching and he decides to take you down after YOU begin punching, it's a whole different ballgame...no strike will stop a duck under to a takedon...perhaps a perfectly timed knee might slow it down, but the thing that will stop it is a simple sprawl...

Alan,
I have actually seen what you are referring to although not in tis tape series. i have seen your body structure sparring series which i did like. i didnt see all the tapes, but I liked most of what i saw. One thing I did like was the lack of "lineage" and "my system of wing chun blah blah blah..." and the lack of chi-sao. made me think...here's someone who gets it; chi-sao isnt going to get you ready to spar....sparring will. If this series is along the same lines, I will probably like it almost as much, but I did wince when I saw the chi-sao section in the clip.

Ultimatewingchun

03-25-2004, 10:51 PM

Dhira (KenWingJitsu):

Firstly...Mike told me in the car on the way home that night that he was losing the battle and was beginning to fear for his safety when William Cheung hit him the third time...he had no confidence at that point that he'd be able to take him down and no confidence that he'd stop the knockout if William decided to continue hitting him...

Secondly...about the wall...it was to the left of William Cheung - about perhaps 2, - maybe 2.5 feet. The action drove William Cheung backward perhaps a foot or two - but mostly it drove him to his left...which meant that his right foot and his back was braced against the wall (actually helping him) when the final part of the encounter occurred...

So my take on it was that he won a victory, so to speak, but not a decisive one, because in this instance the wall helped him...without the wall - who knows?

Now I've seen other instances involving similar techniques he's taught...variations on the same theme using rear elbow strikes for example while using the front hand to pull the head of the opponent forward and down into the elbow that work well and decisively... but my original point was - before we got sidetracked - that I basically agree with what you just said on your last post:

Striking against takedowns can work in some instances but is not high percentage stuff - as you said - stopping a takedown AFTER INITIATION is easier (than strikes) because you're waiting for it...as you put it - "When you are punching and he decides to take you down after YOU begin punching...it's a whole different ballgame - no strike will stop a duck under to a takedown...but the thing that will stop it is a simple sprawl."

I agree with this completely.

reneritchie

03-28-2004, 08:41 PM

Dhira, fwiw, Robert's method for punching, and for WCK in general, is different in kind from just about everything else I've seen. To put it in simple terms, while most WCK plays a fast and loose, shrimping game, he's playing a smashing, bridging game. 'better' and 'worse' are individualistic things, and different things will suit different people (and I personally believe there can be different things that are good--not everything good has to be the same). This is just different. I haven't seen the NHB DVD, but Alan is teaching his version of an aspect of this on the sparring tapes.

Old Jong - ****zer is a wrestling term, like underhook or armdrag. In judo, it would be like taking your right arm, putting it around and underneath someone's left arm (while facing them), reaching through under their armpit, and grabbing their lapel (typical setup for a cross-like choke).

captain

03-29-2004, 05:48 AM

work on your newaza.by the way,after a heavy [ish] grapple class,my hands feel weak.hard to grip things.anyone else experience this?

Russell.

Big Vern

04-29-2004, 09:01 AM

there has been lots of debate on this dvd clip on www.sfuk.net and www.tung-fu.com forums as well.
the grapplers d'ont rate it because of the wing chun content and the wing chunners dont like it because of the ground work aspect.
as someone who has always enjoyed a good scrap i can see the benefits of structure, technique, speed and power standing or on the ground.
alans work is not new or revolutionary it is just his version of controlling a fight to gain positional dominance then neutralise the opponent.
i feel the good thing about this kind of clip is it introduces grappling to wing chunners as a tangible range and one they can master.
good luck to ya!
BV.

reneritchie

04-30-2004, 07:50 AM

I finally had a chance to watch Alan's DVD this week (Robert was kind enough to lend me his copy).

I would recommend, as Alan does on the DVD, that people interested first get and digest his groundbreaking (my words, not his ;) 'Body Structure Sparring Series' so they can see the skillset this DVD requires. In essense, the first series gives the parts, this series puts those parts to use in a 'No-Holds-Barred' context.

In the 2 part DVD, Alan goes over strategy for using WCK in that context, within the dynamic of a cage/ring, or an actual fight (where a wall or side of a car might substitute).

He shows how to pin your opponent against a vertical surface and maintain the pin while you pound them, and how to escape being the pinnee and become the pinner should you get off to a bad start. He then goes through a variety of 'Ground and Pound' situations. This consists of basic positions like scarf and modified scarf hold (kasa gatame), side control (cross-body/100 kilos), mount, guard (top and bottom), etc.

Alan shows how to use WCK power generation (Robert Chu method of) in all the above situations to both counter commonly used attacks, and deliver very effective attacks of your own.

Alan keeps saying he doesn't want to get into submissions on the DVD, but does quickly mention some of the more common in each position, which is good for people unfamiliar with the potential dangers they can face in those situations.

For anyone interested in using WCK in the ground and pound context, this DVD would definately be a great introduction (though again, for optimal benefit, you would need to know the pelvis/sternum pressure method of power delivery Robert espouses and Alan shows on his first series).

Once again, koodos to Alan for creating (not just raising) the bar on contemporary WCK instructional media.