Shaolin vs Wushu

[red5angel]

I was just wondering about the differences between some of the shaolin stuff and some of the wushu stuff, other then the obvious. For example, apparently in shaolin they often take a "narrow" stance, meaning the heels are usually on or near in line, while in wushu they are usually wider, roughly hip to should width apart.

[norther practitioner]

There was a really good article two shaolin specials ago on this......

Shaolin stances are slightly higher as well. Wushu you want your thighs parallel to the ground, shaolin is like at 5 degrees or so.

[red5angel]

NP - do you know why? Is there a reason?

[norther practitioner]

Wushu stances are for posing, shaolin stances are for fighting. It seems a bit stronger to me too, but thats just a personal thing. Going back and forth between wushu and traditional northern has helped me out with both, making my stances stronger, etc.

[red5angel]

what seems a bit stronger to you?

[norther practitioner]

Slightly higher stances.

[red5angel]

I would think lower stances for training, higher stances for fighting would be optimal.

[norther practitioner]

Well, yes, but you have to remember that these are fighting stances to some...:D

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by red5angel
I would think lower stances for training, higher stances for fighting would be optimal.

That's how we train. We want all stances to either be at the butt or the ankle level in forms so you have strong and fast legs when you fight from a higher stance.

[norther practitioner]

Well yeah, thats how I train too... but thats not nec. what I'm talking about.

Oh, and tan tui, this is exactly what it does too.:D Hence spring leg.

[red5angel]

one observation, one question -

I have noticed that since I started training in Shaolin Longfist, my vertical has increased dramatically!

When are my frickin knees going to stop hurting?!?!?

[norther practitioner]

When are my frickin knees going to stop hurting?!?!?

Never..:D

I've blown out both now.. they've been doing better, however, the pain factor goes way down when your quads can take the weight, instead of stressing the knee joint itself...

Oh, and practice those jump kicks for an hour, see how your calves feel the next two days.:D

[red5angel]

I am, and they hurt! I'm hoping at some point my knees sort of adjust somewhat to the exhertion. I know that if I am consistantly working them, they hurt less then say two days of not working at all.

[Judge Pen]

Master Mullins has just discovered that he blew out an ACL 20 years ago. It hasn't slowed him down.

There was a cornerback for the MN Vikings that had blown out both ACLs in high school, but never had them operated on. if your quads are strong enough then you can make do without them.

[norther practitioner]

Yeah, I haven't had any surgeries, however, I've never fully torn anything... the creepy thing though is the fact I can hyper-extend both knees.. I just have to watch not landing with my legs locked out b/c I'm passed verticle and can have my legs both bend the wrong way.. which wouldn't be good if you were wondering...

Any other questions Red fizz angizzle

[MasterKiller]

Sore knees....sore hammies....sore quads....sore calves....sore feet...sore shoulders.....sore neck....

Par for the course.

[red5angel]

I think that's about it so far. I don't get much access to the head instructor at the school, and the two instructors I deal with mostly know alot about how to do the art, but not about martial arts in general or how SL relates.

[norther practitioner]

Right on.. thats pretty par for the course as well....:D

[Shaolinlueb]

my right knee kills me, i hnurt it int rack and field in hs junior year 6 years ago. never really healed. i vertical has increased too. i like it.

[Banjos_dad]

I don't lnow but it looks like wushu has more bionic aerial stuff although shaolin has some too. I guess I'm sayin sometimes I'm relieved I got into shaolin instead of modern wushu because my body has got some miles on it.
I read in a book about snowboarding, some of those freestyle guys actually practice their aerials on a trampoline.
Do you think it would work for us too.
B_d

[norther practitioner]

Well, those are a bit more complex than traditional stuff... I guess if you want to see how it feals to do 540 and 720 tornados and stuff... or an arial (cartwheel with no hands), than yeah. But for tornado kicks, and outside crecent kicks, well, you need to have the hops to do them.:D

[Banjos_dad]

I'm good with the wing kick (same as a tornado I think) etc. I'm having a hard time picking up handsprings. Not getting enough rotation. I keep trying anyway.
Doing backflops on a tumbling mat strengthens the kdney at least ??:(
I persist because, if John Belushi could do it then why can't I. I mean really.

[Banjos_dad]

I have to go for a little bit now. But if someone could share some thoughts on successful handspringing/flipping, I'll have a chance to apply it tomorrow morning, forms class. Back in a couple of hours.
Thanks for the input on the trampoline. If nothing else there's always girls in bathing suits & french maid outfits.

[norther practitioner]

If nothing else there's always girls in bathing suits & french maid outfits.

You've been watching too much manshow :D



But if someone could share some thoughts on successful handspringing/flipping

I'd go to a gymnastics place for a few classes on how to do that.. they usually have pre-requisits for that too.. like round offs and what not.

[norther practitioner]

Oh, and a tornado kick is a jump spin inside crecent kick.

[Banjos_dad]

Yep, same thing as our kick.

As part of our routine on forms day we do a series of falling, tumbling, floor techniques on mats. Working our way from new students everyone does they can do and then eventually works to the harder techniques. With back handsprings being I'd say the hardest. I'm kind of stuck on the front handspring.

About the man show, the trampoline part's the only part I like. i really got to take off see ya later. B_d

[norther practitioner]

Um, how much time do you guys spend on acrobatics?

[Ironwind]

Though mordern say wushu it is fancy and pretty lookingit is also deadly. Wu Shu is the fearless form of Shoalin Kung-fu. All one in the same to me. They only bare differences in the eyes of the practitioner's.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Ironwind
Though mordern say wushu it is fancy and pretty lookingit is also deadly. Wu Shu is the fearless form of Shoalin Kung-fu. All one in the same to me. They only bare differences in the eyes of the practitioner's.

i dont know man modern wushu is more for performance with less emphasis on power and application. more emphasis on speed and grace. plus did they psot up there is a new shaolin class in wushu?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Um, how much time do you guys spend on acrobatics? I don't spend any time on it, unless you count break-falling routines. The wushu players at our school spend approx. 20 minutes a class doing various tumbles, aerials, buttefly twists, etc....

A cartwheel is as close as I come to doing anything acrobatic.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb


i dont know man modern wushu is more for performance with less emphasis on power and application. more emphasis on speed and grace. plus did they psot up there is a new shaolin class in wushu? There is a Shaolin wushu routine, now. I think Shi DeShan in Houston (or one of the other TX. monks) is currently teaching it.

[red5angel]

Wu Shu is the fearless form of Shoalin Kung-fu.


What?!



On flips and stuff - I've been working on that parkour stuff, and that requires some flips and acrobatics to make it really fun. So far I've worked on the basics, roundoffs, cartwheels even, just to get comfortable with my body flying through the air. I want to get a thick mat here soon to start working on actual flips from different heights.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Um, how much time do you guys spend on acrobatics?

The forms I have include some breakfalls, drop kicks, rolls, and one with cartwheels. The Drunken immortal forms have tiger dives, areials, butterfly kicks, and back handsprings.

[norther practitioner]

Do you think it is beneficial to you to be comfortable with movements like this, in fighting? I do to a certain extent... I'm not saying that if I can do a flip, I'm going to try one in combat, I'm just saying that athletisism can help... anywho, as far as shaolin and wushu are concerned, there are a lot of modernized shaolin routines... The shaolin compulsories are a bit different, being that they are compulsory but still more towards the traditional side of it (from what I understand of them).

[Shaolinlueb]

man i see all these "korean martial artists" video's all i see are flips and everything else. they throw in some kicks and call themselves martial artists so they dont get called gymnists? since when was martial arts all about jumping in the air and twisting and everything else? yeah it looks cool but thats not martial arts. yeah i know wushu has it but there are a lot more punches and kicks then flips. what am i getting at? if you do more flips and jumps in a form and say throw 3/4 punches you're a gymnist, go put on your tights and do your springboard thing. IMOP
:o

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Ironwind
Though mordern say wushu it is fancy and pretty lookingit is also deadly. Wu Shu is the fearless form of Shoalin Kung-fu. All one in the same to me. They only bare differences in the eyes of the practitioner's.

That's gotta be troll bait.

I'll say that one physcially gifted enough to do wu shu properly could be an awesome fighter IF they focused on the application, timing, and alive training of technique.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


That's gotta be troll bait.

I'll say that one physcially gifted enough to do wu shu properly could be an awesome fighter IF they focused on the application, timing, and alive training of technique. Na, Ironwind is just full of it..... Remember, he's 15, has achieved Sifu-level skills, and has to train in the woods where no one sees him because he made a super-saiyan pact with his super-secret instructor, and he thinks he can KO Mike Tyson. :rolleyes:

[norther practitioner]

I'll say that one physcially gifted enough to do wu shu properly could be an awesome fighter IF they focused on the application, timing, and alive training of technique.

Exactly what I was going towards.

[kungfu cowboy]

Wushu is just a socially acceptable physical artform of manlove.

[red5angel]

I noticed KFcowboy that you seem particularly fixated on manlove today?


As far as the acrobatics go, my theory on it probably runs along the same lines as your own NP. I feel that while I may not turn any flips in combat, it certainly helps me get a better control and understanding of the way my body moves. Sort of like the deep stance for training thing. I know the outer envelope to which my body can be pushed, so that I can remain comfortably in that if I am fighting.

[Ironwind]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Na, Ironwind is just full of it..... Remember, he's 15, has achieved Sifu-level skills, and has to train in the woods where no one sees him because he made a super-saiyan pact with his super-secret instructor, and he thinks he can KO Mike Tyson. :rolleyes:

LOL funny...

And I'm 17.

And Dragon BallZ is geeky man.

You should grow out of that.

PLUS, If he's human I can.
Maybe not today or tomorrow, but it could happen.
Look at Micheal Jackson.
He's black ................HE'S WHITE!!!!

[Ironwind]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


That's gotta be troll bait.

I'll say that one physcially gifted enough to do wu shu properly could be an awesome fighter IF they focused on the application, timing, and alive training of technique.

Thank you, that kinda sounds like me, except with weak finger tips.

[GeneChing]

...to get back OT, traditional Shaolin kung fu does not have any aerials, butterfly twists, etc. but at Shaolin today, a lot of young students practice modern wushu. So even in the Shaolin monk shows, you'll see wushu demonstrated. In fact, you almost never see the traditional demonstrated because its just not very theatrical. I've been watching Shaolin performances for a decade now and I can only think of a few shows where any traditional was shown at all. There was one last Sunday (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=28849) that had some traditional.

Anyway, my point it that people often get confused because Shaolin is so huge and they judge based on one small exposure. They see a single show, or maybe even several shows, and since those are all wushu, they decide that all of Shaolin must be wushu. But in fact, there is a corpus of traditional forms that they almost never show in shows. Goes to show, you should n't judge solely based on shows. That's a very surreal baraomter for Shaolin.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Ironwind


Thank you, that kinda sounds like me, except with weak finger tips. The troll bait part? I agree.

[red5angel]

ironwind, if your going to make a statement about something being weak, you have to qualify it with your explanation as to why, otherwise it's assumed your trolling.

Gene, good points. When I started at this shaolin school, after having my ass handed to me by one of the students there, I was worried. I didn't want to learn acrobatics, maybe some basics but I wasn't interested in performing wushu. The school taught both wushu and shaolin, and you can see some similarities for sure. I've so far found the shaolin stuff to be pretty dang useful!

[Shaolinlueb]

i have yet to learn any real wushu. i know a short contemporary broad sword form my teacher learned from yao li. thats about it. he wants me to do some more before going to wushu competition forms. but as an instructor i should know them because its the way of the future. (not saying tradition is oging to be gone, jsut a lot more people wanting to learn wushu.)

[Banjos_dad]

We don't do much, otherwise I would take that advice & take a gymnastics class. We do about ten minutes on the mats with back rolls, fron rolls, cartwheels, rolling lying down (sort of like a rolling log), front handsprings & back handsprings. Everything on both sides or directions. We go from easiest to more challenging, so if your like me, willing to attempt a front handspring but not a back handspring, you just do a set of something else during that trip across the mat.
Today I failed again, but the students more junior than me don't even attempt it so at least I know that I'm trying & will capture that skill.

[Banjos_dad]

He said Shaolin is really big.
It's to big to fit in a pigeonhole. Readers of Kungfu Magazine noted the article about the teaching of "taiquando (-dao?)" at Shaolin. And the new shaolin style with a belt ranking system! People don't have to act like wushu and shaolin are polar opposites.
Have a good one. B_d

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Well yeah, thats how I train too... but thats not nec. what I'm talking about.

Oh, and tan tui, this is exactly what it does too.:D Hence spring leg.

I haven't read the whole thread here and don't necc. hve the time...but does anyone have a link for a tan tui teacher??? I'm looking for China, but I guesss I'll go anywhere:D :cool:

[blooming lotus]

I'm big on acrobatics...and have serious appreciation for the gymanastist...I was waiting til I got to Vancouver to study monkey style fulltime to get heavy with it..but what r saying...If I get in some wushu I should be covered???

[SPJ]

For your info:
Northern Shaolin is on Song Shan. For certain periods of time, they are allowed to study Wushu. There was a library called Zhang Jing Ger. There were all kinds of Wushu documented in books. There are Xin Fa (methods for the heart/mind) along with Quan Jing (boxing books).

However, during Yuan and Ching dynasties, the books were destroyed. The temples burned and monks disbanded.

In contrast, Wu Dang Shan, the Daoist temples were built as well as the Great Walls in Ming Dynasty.

I have studied with several worldly Shaolin monks in Taiwan. My specialty was Shaolin one finger Zen. I was no good. However, I have some basic skills and knowledge. Most of Shaolin stuff are for the gifted. They all require decades of practice. Iron Head, Iron Palm, Iron Clothes (Teh Bu San/Jin Zhong Zhao), Great Power Jing Gong fist, palm, leg, on and on.

My favorites are the staff, little hong Quan, and all the basic stuff. I am not gifted enough for a lot of them.

Wushu is used to include all fighting methods or schools in China.

Modern Day Wushu simply means routines to compete in world and olymic games just like dance and gym routines.

Shaolin hand gesture is a palm called Her Shi (ten fingers combined) and prayer beads.

Wu Dang hand gesture is two fingers (index and middle) pointing (Jien Zi, arrow fingers) and dusting brush (Fu Zheng).

There is no Shaolin vs Wushu.

Shaolin is Wushu.

(Modern) Wushu is dance/gym routines for games and metals.

[blooming lotus]

modern day wushu is what happened when the government sucked the life out of shaolin kungfu, disected it and stuck an arm a leg, three fingers and a nose together cause they thought it looked pretty..then told everybody that from now on ...this is how it will look...

[mortal]

I have studied with 3 different monks. Real Shaolin style is definitely not wushu. The shaolin you see today is geared towards performance.
If you are good at wushu the transition to traditional is easier. Some of the monks teach wushu first to get the students into shape. The problem is they don't see the reason to make a big distinction between the 2. Hard training is hard training.

[norther practitioner]

:rolleyes:
.

Geez, thanks for reading the thread and being relevent....

We weren't saying shaolin = modern wushu, we were discussing the differences... so thank you for stating the obvious.

:o

BL, I'll ask a few people around, Where exactly are you in China...

[GeneChing]

You should take a look at the article series that I just published subtitled "the Secret History of Wushu from Behind the Red Curtain". Part one was in our March April 2004 (http://store.martialartsmart.net/kf200121.html). Part two is hitting the newsstands next week or so (no link yet). It'll give you a better picture of the development of modern 'sport' wushu than the old "commie' blacklisting one. Actually, it grew out of communist support of martial arts, as strange as that may sound.

Shaolin clearly encompasses wushu now. It is a fixture in the Shaolin curriculum, as is san da and even tae kwon do. But the root of Shaolin is it's traditional core forms. It's sort of a chicken and egg problem. While you attempt to distinguich between the chicken and the egg, Shaolin zen answers with 'the chicken is the egg'.

[Shaolinlueb]

hmm call me stupid or whatever. but traditional shaolin is traditional wushu. wushu from the past 50 years is a sport. wushu from earlier is kung fu or traditional kung fu with application. everyone associates wushu with modern wushu when its all the same. jsut the older wushu still has application and less emphasise on pretty.

[GeneChing]

...you'll find that the first compulsories weren't established until 1964, so sport wushu is only really 40 years old.

[Sho]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
hmm call me stupid or whatever. but traditional shaolin is traditional wushu. wushu from the past 50 years is a sport. wushu from earlier is kung fu or traditional kung fu with application. everyone associates wushu with modern wushu when its all the same. jsut the older wushu still has application and less emphasise on pretty. I hope this doesn't sound harsh, but that's just nitpicking. It's merely a matter of definition. Yes, wushu does mean martial arts as a whole, but when people use it they often associate it with the modern sport and it can also be well distinguished from the context when they do so.

[red5angel]

hmm call me stupid or whatever. but traditional shaolin is traditional wushu. wushu from the past 50 years is a sport. wushu from earlier is kung fu or traditional kung fu with application. everyone associates wushu with modern wushu when its all the same. jsut the older wushu still has application and less emphasise on pretty.

I'm going to go ahead and call you stupid then, just because Gene already went over that about 6 inches above your own post there luebie ;)


for the sake of the rest of this discussion let's assume that when we say WUSHU, we mean the modern version, competitive sporty gymnastic type. I assumed this from the get go but apparently some people get confused by my verbal wushu gymnastics. This is also not a thread to slam one or the other. I am training currently at a school that teaches both, although I am only learning shaolin longfist, and I have respect for both "schools" of doing things.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by red5angel


I'm going to go ahead and call you stupid then, just because Gene already went over that about 6 inches above your own post there luebie ;)


maybe i should read the full thread instead of jsut reeading random blurbs and posting an opinion? :o :D

[red5angel]

;) :D

[norther practitioner]

for the sake of the rest of this discussion let's assume that when we say WUSHU, we mean the modern version, competitive sporty gymnastic type. I assumed this from the get go but apparently some people get confused by my verbal wushu gymnastics. This is also not a thread to slam one or the other. I am training currently at a school that teaches both, although I am only learning shaolin longfist, and I have respect for both "schools" of doing things.

lol, I guess the people actually reading the thread, and contributing, actually realized what the hell was going on...

I can't stand that about here sometimes....

Granted there are a lot of knowledgeable people around, but they jump in, screw things up, and talk about doing each others girls.... who the hell do they think they are.


ON another note, have you any more questions red fizzle...

[oasis]

in our school, we have short exercises that are called shaolin exercises and wushu combinations. they all move in straight lines (ie left then right), but they are distinguished from one another in that the shaolin exercises (and long forms) began and end with the 'shaolin greeting' (her shi?) with the palms pressed against each other to represent the shaolin heritage, while the wushu combinations always began and end with the 'fist and open palm' salute.

according to this piece written by wing lam (and gene ching :) ): http://www.wle.com/resources/art002.html, that salute was officially standardized for competition forms in 1986.

as others have said, we also incorporate modern wushu kicking techniques and acrobatic drills to develop our flexibility and agility for the traditional forms.

[norther practitioner]

Sounds good...
I always like to see the traditional people get into there forms like wushu peeps..

get a feel for the flavor, the essence, making people see the apps.

[red5angel]

I bet I probably do have some questions but I just don't know them yet! :) Thanks for answering them so far!

[norther practitioner]

another distinction i've noticed in what i've learned so far is that in our traditional forms the punch is usually thrown palm down, while in the wushu exercises the punch is a vertical one (eye up)

I've noticed both in my traditional, depending on the strike... wushu, well, in the newer forms, there have been a lot of hammer strikes, which would be verticle, however, with the chain of punches, those are thrown horizontal usually.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
:rolleyes:
.

Geez, thanks for reading the thread and being relevent....

We weren't saying shaolin = modern wushu, we were discussing the differences... so thank you for stating the obvious.

:o

BL, I'll ask a few people around, Where exactly are you in China...

LOL...I'm about to start teaching in Zhengzhou nxt week, as in !hr outside the temple...I think I have it covered ;) ...but I'll consider recommendations...just be sure to give a breif take on the profile..or at min why exactly I want to train with them....sell them to me:D


if you can't be bothered..sweet as..I pretty good for now anyway:p :D

[blooming lotus]

ok..my bad...we were talking tan tui right :D ...well ok then...so that's where I am...

and...

I'd appreciate it :o ;) :D

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by GeneChing
...you'll find that the first compulsories weren't established until 1964, so sport wushu is only really 40 years old.

what do you mean getting off track????

that post cr right??? post western invasion...I mean influence..imposition...extended visit???:rolleyes:

and shi yong Xin isn't trying to bring shaolin back to it's traditional roots????

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by norther practitioner


I've noticed both in my traditional, depending on the strike... wushu, well, in the newer forms, there have been a lot of hammer strikes, which would be verticle, however, with the chain of punches, those are thrown horizontal usually. There are quite a few vertical fists in our traditional forms.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
There are quite a few vertical fists in our traditional forms.

yeah there are. i can think of forms where half the punches are vertical.

[GeneChing]

that post cr right??? The dates of the Cultural Revolution are officially 1966 to 1976, but it actually dies out earlier. Again, if you read that article...;) As for Wushu, the first compulsories were in '64, but there were no national that year. Actually, this is when people's weapons became popular - toeing the party line if you will. That was forms using stuff like sickles and sledgehammers. There was a national athletic competition in '65 where wushu was an exhibition event. Then the CR begins. Despite the '76 official conclusion of the CR, there are already tournaments happening again in the early 70's and of course, the historic '74 wushu at the white house tour, so you can see the timeline for wushu and the CR. Check out those articles - it's all in there. :cool:

[red5angel]

keeerist, just read the dang article already people!!! Gene is kind enough to slap right down in front of your face, so take the time to read it please!

[norther practitioner]

Still working on tan tui? how many roads/lines have you learned.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by GeneChing
The dates of the Cultural Revolution ...blah blah blahcool:

well fair enough....but, my opinion still stands and doubt somewhere there are facts to support it :D ;)

hey NP....did we get that tan tui link??

[norther practitioner]

No, closest I could find (via a good friend) was taiwan...lol.


sorry....
:D

[blooming lotus]

fair enough....

cheers anyway ;) :p