Literal translation for "Wing Chun"?

[gnugear]

Doesn't it mean something like eternal spring?

If so, does it refer to "spring" as in water (overflowing, bubbling well, coming from the ground), or "spring" as in the season (blossoming, growing, evolving, adapting)?

[Wingman]

Originally posted by gnugear
Doesn't it mean something like eternal spring?

If so, does it refer to "spring" as in water (overflowing, bubbling well, coming from the ground), or "spring" as in the season (blossoming, growing, evolving, adapting)?

The first character in Wing Chun looks like the character of water with an apostrophe on top. This character means eternal/always/forever.

Some lineages have a different first character in the word Wing Chun. It also has a different meaning. I leave it to the others who belong to this lineage to explain the meaning behind the first character in Wing Chun.

The second character in Wing Chun means spring as in springtime (season).

So if you put the 2 characters together it could mean always/forever/eternal springtime.

[taltos]

Some lineages use the character Wing with the "speech" radical in front. Then it means "praise" and the phrase becomes "praising spring."

Levi

[lawrenceofidaho]

Can anyone provide images of the two different "wing" characters?

[CFT]

Here you go:

Eternal
http://zhongwen.com/d/165/x195.htm

Praise
http://zhongwen.com/d/181/x250.htm

[Tom Kagan]

From an earlier post I made on this forum regarding the subject:


Ving v.

1) to sing
2) to express in verses, to versify
3) to versify historical events
4) to exalt, to praise, to glorify: "ving moy" to exalt the plum tree
5) to twitter, to chirp
6) (archaic) to whisper romantic overtures

7) n: a style of poetic composition
8) a: (archaic) beauty.

Tsun n.

1) the first of the four seasons in the lunar calendar, springtime
2) year, age, era
3) (archaic) chronological age
4) the east, oriental
5) (archaic) wine
6) pornography
7) life, vitality (archaic: semen)
8) loving feeling between man and woman


In addition to it being a semantic modifier to "Yin", the "Weng" is also a phonetic indicator. According to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, in archaic form, there was no difference between the pronunciation of "Wing" vs. "Weng" other than from regional dialects. Also, to refer to underground aquifer in archaic form, a different ideogram was used. It is the same ideogram as the modern ideogram for "fountain" and is also pronounced "Wing/Weng."

The true meaning of "Ving" requires a context. (Amusing if you consider there is a perfectly correct, not uncommon, and non-martial context in Cantonese to use the ideograms for "Ving Tsun" with the #6 definition for "Ving" and the #6 definition for "Tsun" )

To hear the songs of springtime is to recognize its beauty. Hence: Ving Tsun = "beautiful springtime." However, if it is to refer to a young woman to whom we give credit for the art, then it's just her familiar name and any other attempts to interpret it differently are just a way to have a conversation with her. :)


"I don't know much English. This word, I happen to know." -- Moy Yat.

[Phil Redmond]

Tom wrote:
>>According to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, in archaic form, there was no difference between the pronunciation of "Wing" vs. "Weng" other than from regional dialects.<<

This is correct. Once my Sifu was talking about Weng Chun to another Cantonese martial artist. He had to use his finger to trace the character for Weng to show that it wasn't Wing.

Though I understand the reason that some write Ving as opposed to Wing. The Cantonese pronounciation is Wing.

[yylee]

In Cantonese, Weng(eternal) and Wing(praising) use different tones. In Mandarin these two properly sound the same.

I am guessing, the "Ving" pronouniation may have come from the FutShan dialect which Yip Man spoke.

[Tom Kagan]

Yes, there is a difference in pronunciation between Wing vs. Weng today. This is why I said "was" - it's an historical point.

If I were to try and write a guide to pronouncing the difference in English today, I would suggest "Weng?" for Wing (no typo - a question mark). However, when either ideogram is placed beside the ideogram for "Tsun" and pronounced, my understanding is it is virtually impossible to hear a difference because of the tonal change necessary to pronounce the 2nd character together with the first as a proper Cantonese Phrase. (Don't ask me, I can't distinguish most tonal changes).


The "Ving" spelling as a representation for pronouncing the ideogram for "Wing" does not come from a FatSan dialect of Cantonese. That's folklore. "Ving" is pronounced "Wing". The real reason lie elsewhere.

Yip Man used "Wing Chun" as a representation of the Chinese ideograms until 4 July 1967. This is why many of his early students still use the "WC" spelling. However, those that remained close to him through that period and felt moved to honor their teacher in this way changed their own spellings to "Ving Tsun" after this point. Wong Sheun Leung and Tsui Shong Tin are just two of many who changed their spelling.

That day is significant because it is the day the papers were filed with the Hong Kong Governing Authority requesting recognition of the Ving Tsun Athletic Association. Yip Man did not want "WC" on the building (it was a British Colony), nor did he feel the "WT" variation also in use at the time was appropriate. (because of some personal pettiness among some of the elder students regarding their use of that to mean "Waste Time").

The change to the "VT" spelling was ultimately agreed upon by the founders of the VTAA due to the persuasive efforts of Chi Nam Kwong, a Chinese language scholar and Ving Tsun student of Tsui Shong Tin.


What's the big deal about "WC" in a British Colony? Good question. Attached is a picture that someone sent to me of me. It's from the Grand Opening of the Ip Man Tong in FatSan, China and may explain why a little better.

It's certainly an innocent and unassuming picture. But, I'm pretty sure it was taken because someone felt it was kind of funny.

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Tom,
NYC could use some Water Closets like that.

[yylee]

thanks for your info Tom.

WC is for water closet, the British way I remember from HK.

a side note, once in a while I hear Chinese speak of Weng or Wing with a "V" sound (as the teeth is touching the lower lip). Don't know how that happen, but accent and dialect evolve (or devolve) over time.

be it Tsun or Chun or Tsoon, they all sound Cantonese to me! (may be with some minor regional diaglect favour).

[FIRE HAWK]

How do you pronounce Wing Chun or Weng Chun in the Hakka dialect ?

[lawrenceofidaho]

Thank you, Chee. -That was even more than I hoped for. :)

-Lawrence

[CFT]

Originally posted by Tom Kagan
If I were to try and write a guide to pronouncing the difference in English today, I would suggest "Weng?" for Wing (no typo - a question mark). However, when either ideogram is placed beside the ideogram for "Tsun" and pronounced, my understanding is it is virtually impossible to hear a difference because of the tonal change necessary to pronounce the 2nd character together with the first as a proper Cantonese Phrase. (Don't ask me, I can't distinguish most tonal changes).Tom,

If you're talking about the Cantonese pronunciation of Weng (eternal) Chun and Wing (Praise) Chun, then there is still a tonal difference between Weng and Wing.

Weng has a descending tone, whereas Wing has a rising tone. I'm not a linguist so my terms may not be technically correct, but that is how I differentiate them.

[Tom Kagan]

Regarding the difference in Cantonese tonal changes between what we are writing in English as "Weng" versus "Wing":

I agreed with you: there is a difference in pronounciation - today.

However, in my example, I did not make any specific reference as to how to pronounce "Weng", only "Wing". Additionally, going back over my notes, I realize I have it backward: My "Weng?" attempt at an English reference to the rising tonal change should be for "Weng". My apologies for the confusion, though I think you have it backward, too. :)

(I also stated my understanding of the sheer difficulty of actually hearing a tonal change when either ideogram is spoken in a full Cantonese phrase in certain instances and also why, for my "tonally challenged" :) ears, I have to take that claim on the faith of the language scholars).

"Everybody's talkin' 'bout the new sound
Funny, but it's still rock and roll to me." -- Billy Joel

[yylee]

Hakka, Cantonese and Japanese....

http://www.asiawind.com/pub/forum/fhakka/mhonarc/msg00513.html

http://www.asiawind.com/pub/forum/fhakka/mhonarc/msg00548.html

just for fun here :)


a side note:

Technically Cantonese is called "Kwong Fu Wa" (the dialect of the Canton gov't officials). The tonal variety among different Canton suburb dialects would truely drive you nuts. When I first came to Canada, most of my relatives here speak with heavy suburb accent, took me years to get familiar with their accent.