The paralel futures of Wing Chun

[old jong]

Now that the MMA thing is attracting many Wing Chun people in it's circles.What will happen to the more traditional practitioners and their art?...
I think that the MMA/Wing Chun adaptation will not hurt the more traditional art most practices.There is room enough for everybody in the Wing Chun world.I would also be personaly pleased to see some Wing Chun guy perform well in that venue. I always believed that a Wing Chun practitioner could do well with a proper physical training and strategic preparation similar to a pro-boxer.

But, this really concern the very small minority who want's to "conquier the world"...;) A few young athletic guys and their gurus!...

The vast majority will simply continue calmly walking the Wing Chun path,enjoying and discovering the deepness of the art.There should be no conflict between the two factions,as there should be no bad feelings between different lineages.Opinions can differ but respect and understanding should dominate.

Today, I talk with my age and experience but I can understand that a younger guy with a competitive drive might say differently. Two different truth. Two different needs.
that's all. ;)

[Phenix]

http://www.todai.com/

you want japaness food? Korean food? Chinese food? Salad Bar?.....

all here! :D


I am going to open a WingDAI

:D

[Ernie]

old and wise jong

like any thing that is well built , you need a strong foundation
even a [[ jkd freak:) ]] knows this
wing chun is a wonderful core , a strong tree from which you can have many branches
gary has often passed this on once you know wing chun it's easy to pick things up from other arts but other arts can seem to pick things up from wing chun very well
i really feel wing chun gives us a great filter to cut through the b.s. and get to the meat of any art
now if we have the time and desire to investigate that is up to us

:D

but really in the end highly skilled fighters are more alike then different no matter what art
so the lines are not that definitive

[Ultimatewingchun]

Perhaps we could have a Wing Chun Political Party here in the United States someday...a Wing Chun President - a Wing Chun foreign policy (ie.- PERMANENT no questions asked most-favored-nation status for China) - A Wing Chun cabinet (made out of wood, of course)...A Wing Chun House of Representatives (ie.- TWC, HFY, Yip Man lineage with many sub-dept. heads...VT, WT, WC, XYZ), Yuan Kay San, etc....A Wing Chun Senate (ie. Senator Cheung, Senator Ting, Senator Gee...you get the picture...

No museums, though......no....But wait - how about A Dept. of Bong Sao - to recover from unexpected events...A Dept. of Energy (we'll put Hendrik Santo in charge - if he stops doing Kyocushin)...A Dept. of Justice - headed by Don Chi Sao - to root out the MMA underworld - only thre best MMA's can stay - the rest get deported to Thailand to visit the King and ask for his approval...oh yes....I see it coming - and a world summit headed by President William Jefferson Tan Sao...putting his hand out in palm up position asking for foreign aid to help fight Terrorists...

Yes - it's all on the horizon...but only after we have a Candidate to go into the UFC and kick butt !!!!

[anerlich]

I believe one can both practice WC as a traditional MA and at the same time explore the rich tapestry of other disciplines out there.

The history and philosophy of science are fascinating. But to be bound by historical precedent or group pressure is to retard growth. Exploration is where the breakthroughs come from, and where the life is at its richest.

Shu Ha Ri, a *traditional* way of approaching Japanese MA study, demands that the practitioner eventually break, and then transcend the rules. So looking outside the box of tradition is arguably a tradition in itself.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
A Dept. of Energy (we'll put Hendrik Santo in charge - if he stops doing Kyocushin)...


I rather run my

www.todai.com with sushi

you want to join? Victor? you can be the great VP MMA cheft Of Todai.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Perhaps we could have a Wing Chun Political Party here in the United States someday...a Wing Chun President - a Wing Chun foreign policy (ie.- PERMANENT no questions asked most-favored-nation status for China) - A Wing Chun cabinet (made out of wood, of course)...A Wing Chun House of Representatives (ie.- TWC, HFY, Yip Man lineage with many sub-dept. heads...VT, WT, WC, XYZ), Yuan Kay San, etc....A Wing Chun Senate (ie. Senator Cheung, Senator Ting, Senator Gee...you get the picture...

No museums, though......no....But wait - how about A Dept. of Bong Sao - to recover from unexpected events...A Dept. of Energy (we'll put Hendrik Santo in charge - if he stops doing Kyocushin)...A Dept. of Justice - headed by Don Chi Sao - to root out the MMA underworld - only thre best MMA's can stay - the rest get deported to Thailand to visit the King and ask for his approval...oh yes....I see it coming - and a world summit headed by President William Jefferson Tan Sao...putting his hand out in palm up position asking for foreign aid to help fight Terrorists...

Yes - it's all on the horizon...but only after we have a Candidate to go into the UFC and kick butt !!!!

Now,that's what I can call a political post!...;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

No...but seriously...Of course there's room for everybody. The political joke is actually a good analogy, in a way...both liberals and conservatives are necessary to maintain the dynamic equilibrium that keeps the Republic afloat...The conservatives traditonally try to preserve what is, what has always been - while liberals traditonally stood for change and progressive evolution in policy and direction...

These dynamics are constantly in interchange (ie. - the "liberal" Kerry is now calling for traditionally conservative minded balanced budgets - and "conservative" Bush wants to do traditonally "liberal-like" things such as nation-building (ie.- Iraq).

THESE THINGS HAPPEN IN THEORY....OF COURSE...not necessarily reality... Remember The Who: "Meet the new boss - same as the old boss"... (ie.- Bush's "liberal" nation-building is motivated by traditional ''conservative" concern for big corporate interests - like OIL...and Kerry wants a balanced budget so that Bush's deficit spending won't totally dry up the nations' ability to pay for tradtionally "liberal" programs like social security, etc.)

But the larger point is.....both "traditional" approaches and "progressive" approaches to Wing Chun must and will interplay off each other to drive the art into the future...

Yin and Yang...they go together.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
No...but seriously...Of course there's room for everybody. ... Yin and Yang...they go together.

Look at Taiwan president election. With assasin, With ..... looks like a movie :confused:

[old jong]

I can understand your views about crostraining/blending other arts elements.No problems with that.
I myself do some Judo on the side occasionaly.
The thread is not about this.(The W.C/MMA thread is there for this)
What about simple pure Wing Chun,even if some seem not able to even tolerate the thought of it?...;) It will survive for sure,like all these other traditional CMA's.

I personaly don't care about "proving myself" to anybody or fight for an audience.Even if I can throw a nice jab/direct/hook/uppercut/shovel and can apply a few chokes and locks,I don't feel the need to blend these things into my Wing Chun. I'm perfectly happy with my Wing Chun practice and teaching.It is a personal thing.I enjoy learning and going deeper into what I consider a great martial art.I see it as a simple weapon that can be sharpened endlessly through times and patient practice.I admit,it does not possess all the techniques and answers to every possible questions but,who really know all answers and be really ready all the times for them?...Life is too short to worry about that kind of things anyway.Wing Chun has other benefits too.Side-effects I could say! Health/mental etc...

The years will surely calm down even the toughest MMA fighters someday.What will you do after your mid-life crisis is done,when you finaly listen to your body and common sense?...When you don't feel the need to compare to the young studs out there anymore ?...;)

You will go back to your good old Wing Chun.

No Helio mentioning please!...;)

[yylee]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Perhaps we could have a Wing Chun Political Party here in the United States someday...a Wing Chun President - a Wing Chun foreign policy (ie.- PERMANENT no questions asked most-favored-nation status for China)

nah, let's go open source, just Wing Chunux! no politics :D

[yuanfen]

Old Jong-
Wing Chun has been going in different directions for a long time
and is likely to continue to do so.

Look at the JKD phenomenon- now the MMA-
some of the reasons are the same.

Folks who continue to understand and discover the principles of the art will also continue to develop it. In good hands the art and the artists will continue to evolve. A great art like wing chun is an introduction to nature- and nature is endless- its always spring.

Because of its natural-ness, perceptive wing chun folks will see
sparks of the arts insights into nature in other activities- however brief and still develop their own wing chun..(I think Ernie referred to this phenomenon in passing)
Thus-
Tyson in his prime with the right guidance had the squarebodied
two handedness, short power, little quick footwork, balance and efficient lines. Lack of continued guidance, dissipation, aging
(a real liability in the quick personal entropy of success in sports)
makes him the caricature that he is.Sigung Ho liked Tyson's short little straight uppercuts with either hand.Almost the chum kiu drilling punches.
But boxing is a sport- and weight can make a difference- Tyson is
a small heavyweight by todays standards- so you have to turn to breaking arms and biting ears- out of frustration- but those things arent cricket in some sports!

Royce and his most effective half brother's quality of staying relaxed and soft in difficult situations is also simpatico with nature. ..specially witha mat and a cage.Wing chun has that element of softness and calm when practiced well- and is applicable in many more contexts than on your back, on the mat and in the cage.

Wing chun is not a limited bag of techniques-it is as good a system I know of in its understanding of the principles of martial motion.
When one is tool oriented- then one runs around looking for some missing tool. Happens in other fields too.

joy

[Midnight]

Please excuse me...but what does MMA stand for?

Mix Martial arts?

[old jong]

Joy.
You mentioned the word ...Tools.
IMHO, the real tools of Wing Chun are: (in random order)
---Body unity and structure
---Awareness of lines (attack/defense)
---Timings
---Relaxed punching power
---Calm mind/capacity to adapt motions for present needs
---Patience needed to develop these attributes

The MMa's guys tend to focus more on the technical things and formulas in their discussions but,any Wing Chun based guy will agree on these "tools" value,basic and essentials to Wing Chun. (Whatever the lineage)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Midnight
Please excuse me...but what does MMA stand for?

Mix Martial arts?

Exactly!...It is a serious tendance among many wingchuners now.There is a very big thread going on that topic.

[Midnight]

Thank you for the clarification.

As to where I stand in this topic. I honestly don't see any reason why any martial art shouldnt be used with other styles.

I see only benefits in the weaving of multiple styles, as long as the student isn't taking on more than he can handle.

[old jong]

Everybody is free to enjoy what he likes. Some may prefer a more traditional way?...Some want a more diverse approach?...Good!...Let's talk about both ways without jugements.Both can help eachothers as Victor said earlier.We are all unique after all!...;)

[Knifefighter]

Many arts have different versions- BJJ has the sport gi form; the NHB/MMA vale tudo style; the "street" method; and the self-defense version.

[Midnight]

I presently train regularily with the following:

Wing Chun
Chin Na
Bagua
TaijiQuan

Do I feel that I'm 'mixing them'? Not really.

Wing Chun, used mainly for its counterattacking properties, consumes my offensive training.

Chin Na, the art of holding and gripping, takes me to a more submissive training.

Bagua, circle walking. Trains me in my movement and centering of my balance.

TaijiQuan, handles my breathing, concentration and personal energy control.


Is this a Mixed Martial Arts example? I wouldnt consider it as such. But all are Martial arts.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Many arts have different versions- BJJ has the sport gi form; the NHB/MMA vale tudo style; the "street" method; and the self-defense version.

I am aware of that. And I'm sure even the "recreational" practitioners who fight from their knees get lots of benefits from their training. They simply don't have the need for Vale Tudo.

It's the same in Wing Chun. Most just want to practice their art and get better without the need to feel like the "king of the hill" or even think about self-defense!...
Does this mean that their arts are of no value?...I don't think so.Both get real benefits from their practice.Physical,mental,even spiritual.Plus....Ingrained self-defense attributes.
The sport fighters need something else ,I know!...;)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Midnight



Is this a Mixed Martial Arts example? I wouldnt consider it as such. But all are Martial arts.

I play guitar and saxophone.Both make music but with different sounds and techniques. ;)

[Midnight]

Originally posted by old jong


I play guitar and saxophone.Both make music but with different sounds and techniques. ;)


I'd very much like to see you do both at once tho :) got a pretty funny image in my head when I read this post. lol



Anyway, I guess I look at 'mixing' a little deeper than most.
When I think of mixing, I see a fighter taking the shin kick of kickboxing, the jump kick of karate, the foward kick of kung fu....as using them as he sees fit.

But to take a style used for grappling and a style used for kicking and punching, I wouldnt consider that mixing so much as adding.

[old jong]

Striking and grappling can't really mix.They are two different modes.
You could however integrate Boxing punches and Wing Chun hand techniques to create a real crossover style!...Or,Boxing bobbing and weaving and Wing Chun punches!... (I already hear some guys comment..."Boxing punches are more powerful!...";) :D

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by old jong
Striking and grappling can't really mix. Sure they can. From the clinch, you throw strikes, which can set up takedowns or use a grappling control technique to set up a punch/knee combo. Failed takedowns lead back into striking and clinch grappling. BJJ vale tudo emphasizes certain posititions in which you mix striking and grappling. I would argue that mixing grappling and striking is sometimes easier than trying to mix two different types of striking or grappling styles.

[old jong]

Sure they can. From the clinch

You're so right!...The transition between the two provides the occasions. Thanks for the correction!...;) (I'll remember this!);)

[yuanfen]

Comments on midnight's post in brackets:

I presently train regularily with the following:

Wing Chun
Chin Na
Bagua
TaijiQuan

Do I feel that I'm 'mixing them'? Not really.
((Sounds like a mix- but a mix is not alawys a synthesis.3 of them involve quite different body mechanics. Chin na is a function of many arts- its not necessarily a separate art. There is kum na froma wing chun platform or chin na froma taji platform. Modern wushu folks put things together for show- usually the gung and the fighting qualities are haphazard via wushu reaining))

Wing Chun, used mainly for its counterattacking properties, consumes my offensive training.

(("Dipping" into an art is not really an art))

Chin Na, the art of holding and gripping, takes me to a more submissive training.

((See above))

Bagua, circle walking. Trains me in my movement and centering of my balance.

((Wing chun when taught right has all kinds of walking, centering and balancing))

TaijiQuan, handles my breathing, concentration and personal energy control.

((Many arts do that. Proper wing chun teaching does that.
If you want to add these things- its your business-your stew-or jkd))


Is this a Mixed Martial Arts example? I wouldnt consider it as such. But all are Martial arts.

((Apples and oranges))

[anerlich]

Perhaps we could have a Wing Chun Political Party here in the United States someday

AIEEEE! Then you'd be on track for the most disfunctional government in history. The internecine brawls in the houses would make those in the Taiwanese parliament pale into insignificance.

America would become an fundamentalist Islamic state in no time flat.

[Midnight]

yuanfen:


I have considered how to answer you in many ways. But unfortunately it comes down to one basis, personal preferrence.

I could condone your perferrence, but that won't change mine. I could argue mine against yours, but that won't change yours.

Am I "dipping" into my arts as you attempted to put it? I think not. It may seem so to you because of how I worded my post. But I'm 24 years old. I have much of my life left to devote to the mastery of any or all of the arts I detailed. I have every intent on taking my arts further than I mentioned above, and I will do so as time progresses. Do not assume that because I am not devoting time to only one art, that I won't come to learn all there is to learn about it.

[yuanfen]

Midnight- I have no problem with your preference.
Good luck.

[Midnight]

Now that, is a humble answer.

Thank you yuanfen. My best wishes to you as well.

[Gangsterfist]

If I may interject here one moment and point out a few things in a different perspective.

I train Taijiquan Yang family and Yip Man wing chun right now, and have class 4 days a week. Comparing the two arts wing chun is my heart and soul. I love it, and think it has a lot of good things going for it. Taiji is a fantastic art, but different.

Taiji puts my wing chun views in a different persepctive. I practice each art like I am fully training it. I do form work, weapons, drills, sparring, spirit boxing, etc with both arts.

Chi sao Vs. Push hands. I thought these two things were very very different at first. After I started really getting into the arts I realized that they are pretty much the same. The same concepts and energies are being applied, its just done in different motions.

All of this gives me a broader understanding of wing chun. It has opened my eyes and changed my view on certain aspects.

Like would you consider wing chun to be mainly defensive or offensive art? I say by nature, its defensive. A while back ago I would say its totally offensive now that my training and understanding has progressed I think wing chun is really a defensive art. However, perhaps that discussion is for another thread.

Just an idea...

[old jong]

We could say that Wing Chun is a very agressive defensive art!..;)

[PaulH]

Old Jong,

It is only natural that the Old yields to the New. No parents should have lived longer than their offsprings. One can only hope that the accumulated treasure of old wisdom will be available for the next generation. Old is New today. Why does one still linger in the bygone past?

Regards,
PH

[old jong]

PaulH
This is a good question. IMO,past and future are just illusions.We all live in our own personal present,right now.

[JAFO]

I think if you're not happy with the Wing Chun you've learned you should be adding everything you can find to supplement it. Even bad WC is better than many of the other systems. Hmm, maybe I should qualify that by saying "bad WC from someone who actually studied it all the way through", so as to not include guys who got on the plane in Hong Kong at Second Form and ended up as Grand Masters when they stepped off in the west. Several of our biggest faces fall into that category. Coincidentally, some of these guys and their students are also among some of the most ardent "mixers", too. Big surprise.


JKD and the formless form was borne of Bruce's incomplete education in Wing Chun. Well, that and the "free spirit - fight the power" culture of the late '60s/early '70s. Look how far both JKD (and it's many derivatives) have come since then. Who knows what would have happened had Bruce actually learned all or most of the WC system? JKD would have probably still come along, but it wouldn't have been Bruce; it would have been some other talented student with an incomplete education and an unfinished system, looking to fill in the blanks.

Meanwhile, we still have the here and now. I don't fear for Wing Chun's destiny because it isn't a dead or stagnant art. There's still room for technical progress of the applications within the principles, and there are at least a few people who are actively contributing to that progress.

[Gangsterfist]

I think the real problem is the artist, not the art. I have trained a few martial arts here and there before wing chun, and I gotta say wing chun has the most politics. Not only have I met many many (more so that other arts) arrogant wing chunners, but the teachings from every lineage can be quite different. People train wing chun and think its the best for all around combat. I agree to a point with them, but disagree also. There are reasons why all the martial arts that exist today exist. They would not have been passed down for this many generations and still have people practicing them if they were not effective.

I think many people get caught in a wing chun minded stage, where they get somewhat jaded by their art. Like when I went to a CLF demo and heard wing chun people talking about how they could biu sao the cross arm windmill strikes. They very so arogantly said they could, and infact that is one of the last things you want to do against that strike. If I remember correctly the technique was a "crashing the bridge" technique. Another time my sifu was practicing taiji and a wing chun person told him taiji doesn't use that footwork he was using. The funny thing is, he was doing the short form.

So, its really the individuals and the sifus. If you get a good sifu he will cover lots of ground with your wing chun and always try to put it in many different perspectives. Bad wing chun, well is bad wing chun and no better than any other poor taught style.

Even if you never cross train keep an open mind about every other art. After you get your butt whooped a few times you begin to question your art and look at it from new perspectives. I remember the first time I got kicked in the face pretty hard by a good TKD fighter. It took that one time, but now I don't get kicked in the face as much because I learned my lesson the hard way.

[Ernie]

jafo
JKD and the formless form was borne of Bruce's incomplete education in Wing Chun. Well, that and the "free spirit - fight the power" culture of the late '60s/early '70s. Look how far both JKD (and it's many derivatives) have come since then. Who knows what would have happened had Bruce actually learned all or most of the WC system?

this is what wing chun people say to make thmeselves feel better

but in the same breath take credit for what bruce achieved when it suits them

so sad

how many people have learned the whole system from qualified sifu's and still just suck , can't fight there way out of a paper bag but can sure talk you to death and explain how good they are

masters of the sales pitch brain wash and lip sau

wing chun is wing chun bruce was bruce the 2 happen to share a history but one does not define the other

bruce was a '' rock star '' i'll give you that but he put up and made others shut up

while now most just talk

sorry to come off jafo but i just not cool to play the hater role
if you haven't had experience with that individual or at least people that were directly effected by him

if i would have had such a closed mind iw would never have spent time with dan and he is an amazing martial artist , some one i would trust to have my back in a street fight over alot if not most that have [ completed the system ]

now to be totally honest 90% of the jkd cats i have worked off suck

but i have seen what a good jkd man can do and a good wing chun man can do and i respect both
comes down to how much work the individual is willing to put in

to steal from gfist

[[wing chun people talking about how they could biu sao the cross arm windmill strikes. They very so arogantly said they could, and infact that is one of the last things you want to do against that strike]]]


that is more common then not in wing chun arrogance based on no first hand experience


but it maks for a good sales pitch i guess:rolleyes:

[Gangsterfist]

I just laugh when people come out and call things like karate crap, or say taiji is just for health. I took 3 years of Ryukyu Okinawan kempo. It was a very good and complete system. It had open hand, and weapons forms (it was a royal art taught to all samurai back in the day), grappling, ground fighting, pressure point striking, and no BS straight to the point hurting your opponet. That style of karate is no where near crap. Infact almost every Okinawan karate style I have looked at seems to be a pretty darn good system. Also, I could probably argue its more of a complete system than wing chun is, however I don't really feel that way.

Learn to think outside the box that we call wing chun. Touch hands with many other styles as possible. That is the way you will learn to adapt your wing chun. BTW, if any of you ever spar a good CLF person, I will save you some hard learning experience. Side step their swings taan saos and biu saos DO NOT work against their haymaker looking windmill strikes. That is becuase their arms are like ropes or chains and will just wrap right around your bridge and clock you. It hurts.

In all fairness you should never compare Yip Man, Bruce Lee, WSL, etc etc to todays fighters, or todays systems. For one, none of us are any of these people. These people were very very good at their art, and probably had some natural talent that not all of us have. Remember there are no definate answers in combat, the only constant is you win or you lose.

[Ernie]

gfist
I will save you some hard learning experience. Side step their swings taan saos and biu saos DO NOT work against their haymaker looking windmill strikes.


ha ha this reminds me of the tan da application i always see people doing to the boxing hook or over hand

looks real good in a picture but get in from of a real boxer that knows how to set it up and try it ,

of course there might not be much of you left to tell anyone:D


good point though about looking at others and saying what they can or can't do or what they know or don't know

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ernie
Who knows what would have happened had Bruce actually learned all or most of the WC system?

:


1. There are plenty of people who knows all the forms sets...etc of WCK. But are they complete?

2. What is in-complete of Bruce Lee's WCK?

3, Isnt it very clumsy and not natural and not accord to reality to always has to fight with one always has to place the tan sau this way, the horse stance this way, the distance this way, do this 1,2.3, 4...... . It is sooo sufforcate to all these stuffs. Why can one just jump around a little, or walk around, or ... instead of one has to do this to chain punch, to go to ground..... all limiting Pre-setup.....




It is kind of hypnotism trying to force reality and outcome with one's fantay. Sure, if others believe you. then you can hynotism and make him live in your fantasy.

When one heard or see the other guy do WC. Then, in the Mind "oh WCK, that is bruce lee..... that is the best... and I am inferior. I cant against that...." Same with, " oh Grappling, that is MMA, I cant go to ground, xx% of fignt end up at ground. I will lost....."

Bunch of self hypnotism. Until some one can fly come out, then the self hypnotism shift again " oh that style can fly, 100% of fight start at standing. one can get knock out and killl... "

All these self hynotism. Doesnt anyone get tired of these on and on self hynotism? When is one going to develop and trust one own skill ? :D

Probably never, because all is about false security. puting oneself to one laber today to get better false security. tomorrow if one's sidai, or siheng or sifu lost to the Chicken or turtul style similar to the Shaws Brothers movies, then switch to other laber to get more secure....... goes on and on and on similar to the Energize Bunny, until one get soo old and die.

The followers will never become a master. and a master dont follow but create his own and always learn the differents.

So want to speak about false security labering? what a waste of live. :D


I know I am nuts. He hehehehehehhehee.. :D

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

What did the old WC Masters know that we don't know or are not very familiar with? Are there more to Fajing that you mentioned often?

Regards,
PH

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

1, What did the old WC Masters know that we don't know or are not very familiar with?

2, Are there more to Fajing that you mentioned often?

Regards,
PH


1, the idea of not stuck in false security. the idea of how GOD think while in the creation. :D

2, how many way can one write a letter "A"?


Hahahahhaaha, you know, the bottom line of all these parallel , His-story, and future stuffs discussion are just one.

People loves to play GOD. and all is about CREATION.
When they found out false security is an illusion.

Look at Uncle Bruce.
Why dont he called his art WCK but JKD? heheheehe,
some just enjoy to play GOD, and the project is about CREATION.

Again, As for "Are there more to Fajing that you mentioned often?"

If you know how and what GOD think while he creates you will be able to creates too. Details, that is not that interesting.


:D

[anerlich]

I agree with many of the sentiments expressed above.

I too think it is shameful how many WCer's are happy to use BL in their advertising, but then to criticise him once they get the punters in the door.

WC owes Bruce a much bigger debt than good JKD owes to WC.