shoulders, lats and what exactly each muscle does

[rubthebuddha]

if someone is at a dead, two-arm hang from a pullup bar, and they pull themselves up a little bit -- not by normal pullup form, but rather by simply pulling the shoulders to their lowest point on the torso -- but still leave the arms straight, which muscles are being used? and, other than biceps being used for the bend of the elbow, what different muscles are being used to do a normal pullup?

same question for dips as well. if someone is in a dip position and lowers and raises himself while keeping his arms straight, what muscles are being used, and how is this different (other than tricep) from a normal dip?

[Serpent]

Not sure I understand exactly what you're getting at, but I think you're talking about the shoulder girdle muscle group. Do a google and let us know if that's what you mean....

:confused:

[Toby]

Pretty sure for both exercises it's mostly your traps. Think of the pullup example and reverse it. You're standing there with the barbell in the finished deadlift position and your shoulders shrugged. Lower the bar down to the lowest shoulder point and you're doing the eccentric phase of a shrug.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
if someone is at a dead, two-arm hang from a pullup bar, and they pull themselves up a little bit -- not by normal pullup form, but rather by simply pulling the shoulders to their lowest point on the torso -- but still leave the arms straight, which muscles are being used? and, other than biceps being used for the bend of the elbow, what different muscles are being used to do a normal pullup?

omg! I was totally going to ask that same question!

Wait, let me make sure we're talking about the same thing. I'll phrase it differently.

Ok, say you're doing shrugs. At the bottom of the movement, your shoudlers are down. We'll call that "position A." Shrug your shoulders up, and we'll call that "position B." Alright good.

So you're saying that you're hanging from a bar, as low as you can, in position B, and then you pull yourself up JUST A LITTLE using just your shoulder area to position A, right?

I guess the muscle being worked is whatever is the antagonist of the traps, because that movement is force being applied opposite of how the traps work.

If that's what you're talking about, I'd also like to know the answer.

[Toby]

Originally posted by IronFist
I guess the muscle being worked is whatever is the antagonist of the traps, because that movement is force being applied opposite of how the traps work.

If that's what you're talking about, I'd also like to know the answer.
I already said it's the traps, Iron. Now listen, ******! :p

It's not the antagonist. You're not pushing, you're pulling irrespective of whether you're doing a shrug or a pulldown.

For the 2nd exercise, I'm changing my answer. It is the antagonist in that case, so I'm going with Serp.

[IronFist]

It's not the traps if you're hanging from a bar.

The traps job is to lift the shoulders up to your ears.

In the hanging from the bar case, gravity is pulling your body down (and therefore your shoulders up to your ears). You have to exert muscular force to REVERSE this, which would be lowering your shoulders, which is the opposite of what the traps do, which makes it the antagonist of the traps.

Understand now?

[Toby]

Yeah, I understand. I still say it's the traps, though. I tried it by hanging on to the desk with one hand, keeping the upper body horizontal towards the desk and sticking my butt out behind me so I'm "pulling" the desk (with awful form :p). Then I can reach around with the other hand to feel what's contracting. The upper trap feels like the one doing the most work, although I feel a fair bit of lat contraction as well.

[rubthebuddha]

the traps aren't just the triangles on the sides of your neck. the traps are an near-diamond shape on your back.

back muscles (http://www.changingshape.com/exercise/musclecharts/rearviewofthehumanbody.asp)

what i'm referring to as an exercise is entirely a shoulder movement -- the shoulder moves in relation to the body. the arms stay in the exact same spot.

ironfist has it right in regard to the shrugs. all they are is raising and lowering the arms, but the body stays in the same spot. what exercises i'm talking about is raising and lowering the body with the trap's antagonist while the arms don't move. it's purely up and down, with no use of the biceps or triceps except as stabilizers of the load.

[Toby]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
the traps aren't just the triangles on the sides of your neck. the traps are an near-diamond shape on your back.

I know. That's why I said upper traps, because I can't reach around far enough to get to the middle or lower traps. I understand what you guys mean, but I still think it's the traps. I'm probably wrong though, so I'll shut up now before I make more of a fool of myself ;).


*Waits with baited breath for the correct answer ...*

[IronFist]

If anything, your traps should relax when you do it cuz they're not working :D

It's probably your serratus or lats or something that are contracting. Just go to the gym and hang from the bar and do like 100 of them and then whatever is sore the next day, that's the muscle you were using :)

[Toby]

*Said with very sheepish grin*

It's definitely the lats. Just got home and did a few. Feels like a good exercise for lat isolation.

[fa_jing]

I believe that the lats are the biggest muscles in your upper body and they have multiple insertion points.

BTW, I feel trap involvement during pullups (especially at the top), and during bench press. They work pretty hard as stabilizers, for some reason.

[IronFist]

n/m

[FooFighter]

RB:

What is the function of your question? I need to know your purpose and what is it related to?

The position which "someone is at a dead, two-arm hang from a pullup bar" this is called upward rotation of the scapular complex.

"pull themselves up a little bit -- not by normal pullup form, but rather by simply pulling the shoulders to their lowest point on the torso -- but still leave the arms straight, which muscles are being used?" this is called scapular depression and retraction.

Basically all the muscles used directly or indirectly are muscles of scapular stabilzation complex: Trapezius, Romboid Major and Minor, Levator Scapulae, Serratus Anterior, and Pectoralis Minor.

"and, other than biceps being used for the bend of the elbow, what different muscles are being used to do a normal pullup?"

The Primary muscle in a normal pull up? Would be all the muscles of the scapular stablization and of course Latissimus Dorsi, Teres Major, Detoid which perform the adduction movement.

"if someone is in a dip position and lowers and raises himself while keeping his arms straight, what muscles are being used,"
Scapular elevation and depression, primary muscle used is the Trap.

"how is this different (other than tricep) from a normal dip?" Well other muscles requires for you to perform the dips aren't being used in simple doing scap. elevation and depression.

By the way, performing scapular depression is good for people who have poor postures and wing chun students.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by IronFist
If anything, your traps should relax when you do it cuz they're not working :D



I just did a couple of variations on that changing elbow pos in/out (which makes a huge differnce), and I'm going traps lats and if you angle it right you can get right to your teres minor/major...
bruce lee style :D ;) :p

[Ka]

Lats,Teres Maj Min,Pec Minor and various abs