Thread was CLOSED...

[YinYangDagger]

...and I wanted to rant about MY experience with Shaolin-do!

As a FORMER SD student, I'm glad to be out of the "mess". I left for a variety of reasons, mostly because I was tired of all the lies given to me by the "upper ranks". I'll send you this, I'll do this for you, I'll do that. One thing I can't stand is for someone to promise to do something, repeatedly, and totally blow you off. A couple of you are on the board here and know what I'm speaking about. There's definitely NO honor among the Shaolin-do ranks.

Shaolin-do is NOT Shaolin, folks, it's a form of karate from somewhere. Either that or the BIGGEST scam in martial arts today. I didn't get too far in the ranks, nor did I want to. I basically wasted an entire year at the school I was at.

During one performance of a Pakua knife form performed by Sin The, he left out huge sections of the form. I heard other people talking about it (they had learned the form also), and you know what the response was? "He's the Grandmaster, he can do that if he wants". :rolleyes:

Another night at the DOJO (?) we were all sparring and a Black Belt decided to throw in knives (the rubber kind). I think his plan was to "ooh and ahh" the lower belts by his prowess with defending against the blade. He did just that, until it was my turn. I must have planted the blade into his chest about 5 times before he decided "OK, that's it for sparring tonight." Thanks Marine Corps.

I could go on and on, about VERY poor testing standards, learning material a DAY before you tested with it for your next belt rank, etc. But I won't. I'm glad I'm out of it, and now I can focus on learning something REAL.

[David Jamieson]

and your point being?



































































































:D

[Losttrak]

"Thanks Marine Corps."

Lol. Yeah, SD is but a carbon copy of every other over-hyped, trailer-part variety martial arts school. Bah

[David Jamieson]

which part of the trailer?

[Water Dragon]

Have you checked out Kirk Woller's Shuai Chiao school in San An yet? A couple former Shaolin Do guys are there now. Here's a link to his website. (http://sa_combatshuaichiao.tripod.com/)

[Mr Punch]

I read that closed thread and the link to mulletsgalore.com (esp the wedding photo gallery) and could only come to this conclusion:

Americans are really really stupid! :D

The only thing that then got to me is how much more stupid I was for having read the **** thread and link... :(

[AshidaKimFan]

hmmm, it figures KL had to open his stupid Canadian mouth

[YinYangDagger]

Water Dragon - I've been speaking with Gene for over a year now. BEFORE I went to SD, I tried to start classes with them, but, LOL, at that time everyone was injured and not training. They weren't going to start up for another 2 months or so, and unfortunately I went to train at the SD school. I should have waited...

And now, since that's behind me, I will start to train with them hopefully within the next month or so, as soon as my work schedule permits. I did go to the Asian Festival we had here and met Sifu Woller and watched the demo they gave. I'm hooked and can't wait to start training in Combat Shuai Chiao.

[Fred Sanford]

hahaha. all your base are belong to us.

[Judge Pen]

Its spring and time for the SD bashing to begin! ;)

YYD, I'm glad that you found you're way. I'm no in a position to talk about how other schools are run since I don't go to your school. All I'll say is that not all schools are the way you say this one was.

[red5angel]

Americans are really really stupid


right, cause america is the only country in the world with it's share of trash.....




I though there were like 8 shaolin-do threads out there! Were they all closed?!

[Judge Pen]

Nah, we just needed another one to waste our time on. :p

[MasterKiller]

Considering YYD has been a big supporter of SD, and quite vocal about it sometimes, this is a shock to say the least.

[Judge Pen]

Well, whenever someone just starts the style, gets on these boards and talks about how legitimate they know the style to be, without having any real perspective, then it's not a shock.

There are a lot of schools, in SD and other styles, that are worried about testing, pushing students through the ranks, give them another form to be happy, etc. If this happens then the students can't have any real understanding of the fundamentals. Inevitably some of these students get to black (in two years or less :rolleyes: ) and start "teaching." Should we be surprised when their technique is lacking? If a new student, who is very cognizant of all the arguments against SD, then uses these people as an example of bad kung fu, should we be shocked then?

Different schools hold their students to different standards. This means their is a great disparity from student to student and school to school based upon an individual's motivation to train on their own. Is it an indictment against some SD schools and teachers? Absolutely. Am I guilty of it myself? Sometimes, sure, but all I can do is try to hold myself to a higher standard, train hard, and if I choose to teach, then force my students to work hard too and make sure that I teach them the fundamentals properly.

Again, I'm not trying to put down any particular school. I haven't been to the schools in Texas. I have met Master Schaeffer and found him to be nice and to have good fundamentals and skill. I respect that. I've seen skill in some of his students too. Whether they are the exception or the rule; I don't know.

[MasterKiller]

Yeah, but YYD was really vocal.....

:D

[Judge Pen]

And why I roll my eyes everytime someone with less than a years experience in SD gets on these threads and screams how great the style is. :D

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, would you buy a video called "At the hammertoes and bunions of the Grandmaster"?

[red5angel]

well, the martial arts attracts some odd people, the same type of people who would join cults or believe in something like "Qi" :)

these people get sucked into the SD phenomena and get right into it. A litle brainwashing and away you go!

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Why do you think this seems to happen so often?

Do you think it's related to the hero-worship mentality often present in SD students (at least in their online personas), which is fed by things like calling a DVD 'At the Feet of the Grandmaster' as if he were Jesus or something?

I thought the name of the DVD was a little odd. I've met GM Sin The several times. I had lunch and dinner with him two weeks ago after my test and the lower rank test respectively. He is a nice man. He comes across as very humble. He's funny and tells great stories some of which are self-deprecating. He does not come off that one should worship him and all this holier than thou bs.

I'm speaking generally here, but some people like to put their teachers on a pedestal. Your teacher can be great, and deserving of respect, but that's different. If some teachers bypass the appropriate amount of respect and go on to worship, then does that discredit everyone else who learned from them?

Red5, some people may believe things without much independant thought, others may think for themsleves and come to their own conclusions. That's not brainwashing.

[norther practitioner]

During one performance of a Pakua knife form performed by Sin The, he left out huge sections of the form. I heard other people talking about it (they had learned the form also), and you know what the response was? "He's the Grandmaster, he can do that if he wants".

It might be a secret now...:eek: :D



Seriously, I make stuff up, leave stuff out, etc. all the time when doing different forms. It really isn't that big of a deal... Leaving stuff out really isn't that big of a deal, so long as the person performing does know what they left out. It was just a demo anyway right. It would have been a different story if he said, did a bagua broadsword form and used a straight sword, demonstrating himself cutting his own neck....

On another note, right on, find a school that you enjoy.:p

[red5angel]

Red5, some people may believe things without much independant thought, others may think for themsleves and come to their own conclusions

true, but that dosn't mean it doesn't happen, and some MA schools are pretty dang good at it, they develope cults of personality, and mysticism to draw people in.

[Judge Pen]

I'm sure it does happen, but if some students fall into an unreasonable infatuation with their perceptions of their sifu's skills then that doesn't make them brainwashed. Its the martial equivlent of saying "My dad can beat up your dad" and then accusing the dad of brainwashing his son into believing that.

Maybe some dads do it, but not everyone!

[red5angel]

sometimes it's brainwashing was all I was saying. Alot of guys who head martial arts schools are charismatic, so you get a few weak minded individuals, who fail to, as you say, evaluate and decide for themselves, and suddenly they become zombies for the art and schools. Shaolin Do seems to pretty coonsistantly turn these types loose to the public pretty regularly.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by red5angel
sometimes it's brainwashing was all I was saying. Alot of guys who head martial arts schools are charismatic, so you get a few weak minded individuals, who fail to, as you say, evaluate and decide for themselves, and suddenly they become zombies for the art and schools. Shaolin Do seems to pretty coonsistantly turn these types loose to the public pretty regularly.

I think thats because Sd is much maligned on public forums such as this. You take one of those guys and push his buttons a bit and he'll spout off until the cows come home about how great the style is, and you don't know this or that yada, yada.

Then you take the same guy who finally gets disinchanted with trying to aruge (probably because he never learned how to think for himself so how can he put together coherent arguments that just don't repeat what others have told him) and they can do a 180 and talk about how it's a fraud all along. Chaff in the wind.

[red5angel]

you do have to admit the way the lead guy acts is sort of strange sometimes. That whole priest type thing he has going it weird.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Or epiphany.

You can tell the difference between the two by the quality of their posts prior to their change in position.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by red5angel
you do have to admit the way the lead guy acts is sort of strange sometimes. That whole priest type thing he has going it weird.

Priest type thing? :confused:

[red5angel]

I don't know, maybe I'm confused, do they have a main site to look at?

[MasterKiller]

Temple Kung Fu (http://www.templekungfu.com/)

Shaolin Do (http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/index.shtml)

[CaptinPickAxe]

Whao! I'm on that website. So is meatshake. LOL!:D

[Water Dragon]

Who is who? Oh, and I might be down there by July with a big ol can of whoop @ss for ya :D

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Who is who? Oh, and I might be down there by July with a big ol can of whoop @ss for ya :D This is CPA.

[MasterKiller]

This is MeatShake.

[Golden Tiger]

I hope my picture on there gets used to represent some one on here....(Imitation is the greatest form of flattery)

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Temple Kung Fu (http://www.templekungfu.com/)

Shaolin Do (http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/index.shtml)

Did they used to have more information on their lineage on the Temple website?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


Did they used to have more information on their lineage on the Temple website? Yeah. They took it all off because of the internet buzz they were getting.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
I hope my picture on there gets used to represent some one on here....(Imitation is the greatest form of flattery) PM me your real name and I'll do my best.

[red5angel]

that's CPA and meatshake?! I could take those guys, hell my sister could take those guys! ;)

Ok I was thinking Temple, however, I'm never impressed by a school that has a picture of their instructor(s) shirtless and flexing, what the hell is that?

[Ralphie]

Meatshake is one intense, if not ugly, dude. Pickaxe, 1981 Ted Nugent concert called, it wants its hair back.

BTW, I've met both of those guys around 10 years ago. I guess anyone can find a place to become a "master" of martial arts regardless of skill.

[red5angel]

atleast none of those SD guys appear to be too obese anyway. Nothing ****es me off then some hugely over weight guy claiming to be able to kick ass.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by red5angel
atleast none of those SD guys appear to be too obese anyway. Nothing ****es me off then some hugely over weight guy claiming to be able to kick ass.

Trust me, Master Mullins said the same thing; That's why we have our physical requirement test every year.

[MasterKiller]

This is JudgePen.

[Judge Pen]

A daper looking individual if I do say so myself. ;)

[Ralphie]

themeecer discovers the secrets of Daoist longevity

http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/JTurner.jpg

[norther practitioner]

lmfao...

[Fred Sanford]

ah yes shaolin do, my favorite subject. some of you guys need to be deprogrammed. judge pen you seem like a nice enough guy, but you totally brainwashed.

[Serpent]

OK, I've been trying to avoid this thread - you know, I've kinda been there before, etc.

However, one point catches my attention.

Someone new to a style vehemently defends it when it gets a public slamming. Then, a year or two later, they come back and say, "You know, you guys were all right. This style is actually a pile of sh!t."

At first they had an uniformed opinion, then they used the benefit of their experience to make an informed opinion.

And apparently they should be judged on their previous youthful impressionism?

I think it's the other way around. Surely these people are the best example of the truth behind the situation.

YYD, Meatshake, willow sword, etc..

It's not like it's an isolated incident.

[Water Dragon]

serpent just put a sheepdog in a suit and called it the grand correct

[Vash]

Then he had sexors with it. :eek:

[Shaolin-Drunk]

Is the meece on vacation or something? I thought for sure he would have thrown his two cents in by now...

[cerebus]

Or perhaps his non-sense? :D

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Ralphie
themeecer discovers the secrets of Daoist longevity

http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/JTurner.jpg
Hehe .. cool. :D

Actually, when I'm old I want to be like this guy: http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/009/002/001.html Watch his video .. that is some great body tone for a man in his 70s.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Drunk
Is the meece on vacation or something? I thought for sure he would have thrown his two cents in by now...
I'm here... just watching for the moment.

[Vash]

Uechiryu Kicks @$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CaptinPickAxe]

This is CPA

Holy Hell!!! Do you have hidden cameras in my house!?!?:D


No, I'm on the San Antonio Shuai Chiao website. In the events section. I'm the younger guy in the glasses...I was good at what I did at the demo...standing around. Those photos proove it.:D

[Chang Style Novice]

Originally posted by themeecer
Watch his video .. that is some great body tone for a man in his 70s.
Plus totally wicked awesome facial hair.

Video doesn't play nice for me, tho.

[KC Elbows]

I wouldn't call SD a cult. The fact that a large number of members actually do put up with the flack to hang out on open forums is always a good sign. Cults insulate their members from outside influence. If sd were a cult, word would have gotten around that four or five members were on this forum, and pressure would have been put on school owners to stifle participation, usually by explaining how all these outsiders are just wannabes and losers, not cool people like the creepy cult members, and that detractors are merely people who either washed out of sd training, or never even had the chance.

That's how I run my school, at least.

[YinYangDagger]

At first they had an uniformed opinion, then they used the benefit of their experience to make an informed opinion.

And apparently they should be judged on their previous youthful impressionism?

I think it's the other way around. Surely these people are the best example of the truth behind the situation.

YYD, Meatshake, willow sword, etc..

It's not like it's an isolated incident.

Thanks, Serpent, you are EXACTLY correct. I went to Shaolin-do because I wanted to study SHAOLIN kung fu. It's a simple as that. When I figured out it was a LIE, and saw the junk that was being promoted, I knew it was time to leave.

[Judge Pen]

If that's the case, then fine YYD, but here's my question:

Considering your previous background in the martial arts, karate I believe, why did you get on a public forum and adamently proclaim it to be the real deal? If you say its some type of karate now, could you not see that before? It's not like you had no experience in the martial arts before, right?

Plus, it sounds like you had some bad teachers (regarding the knife defense incident).

[Serpent]

serpent just put a sheepdog in a suit and called it the grand correct


Then he had sexors with it.

:eek:

Methinks themeecer is being quiet because he's beginning to see the truth after all this time. He's sobbing gently into his Shaolin-Do pyjamas muttering, "All those wasted years....!"

:)

[themeecer]

I assure you my years have not been wasted. My training has paid off well, several times.

By the way ... we have a new Aussie in our classes here. We are training him to be a lethal killing machine and then we are going to send him back over to find you. ;)

[Kymus]

Interesting plan of action Meece, but didn't you know that Ausie's are like super nice? My father is trying to get a citizenship there currently.
Unless you mean Aussie as in Autria like Ahnold.. He's a nice guy, but he could pop mead head in a head lock like a zit! :eek:

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Kymus
Interesting plan of action Meece, but didn't you know that Ausie's are like super nice? My father is trying to get a citizenship there currently. Nice??!?!?! Have you spent 5 minutes talking to Serpent? He is anything but nice.

[Serpent]

Ah, meecer, you are SO easy to draw out! I'm a nice guy to most people - it's just the fools like you that I'm not so nice to.

Send your trained monkey back home and I'll show him a real martial art! ;)

[themeecer]

Thing is, Serp, I was drawn out in humor ... not anger.

And I reiterate ... my art, like it or not, has been real good to me. I assume this is because you get out of it what you put into it. The ones that didn't stick with it also didn't put enough into it, for whatever reason.

[Serpent]

Yeah, it's cool - I'm smiling too! :)

As for your comment about not sticking with it - sounds a lot like rationalisation to me.

[YinYangDagger]

As far as this discussion, it's over for me. I'm not the kind to dwell in the past, and yeah, I admit I've made mistakes in judgement concerning SD initially. Of course, everyone had made mistakes in the past. I've got 2 ex-wives, there's 2 more. Sorry we all can't be perfect like you Judge Pen.

[themeecer]

You may have mentioned this before .. but how long did you study SD, yinyangdagger? How long have you studied your new art?

PS. By the way ... you have my thanks in your military service of our country.

Also it is sad that you have decided on another path and chosen to bash us that find your previous path worthwile. I checked some of your older posts and saw we were in 100% agreement on many.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I'd rather waste my time *****ing about something worth while. Like "King" george bush...

SD is like chicken pox. It may bother you but you have to learn to ignore it.

[Radhnoti]

...one more point I'd like to add.
To my knowledge, The Willow Sword has never bashed the training he got in SD. His issues were with his ex-teacher. It may be that since he's trained elsewhere since he's found reason to disparage his old style, but I've never seen it.

[The Willow Sword]

I have always defended the quality of the training at SD, and yes my beef is with my former teacher, of course there are other things regarding the politics and the BS surrounding SD that made me leave. i still have the bitter attitude and it shows at times(ie: read my post in the thread titled "kung fu confessional")i will always respect the time i spent with Sin the',,but i have no more respect for my former teacher at SD or the SDA.(yes you can still respect the man and not the organization) hey even i have enough common sense to know a hybrid system of kung fu when i see it and marketing techniques.(given my previous experience before hand in traditional CMA).

and it has been very interesting reading the other thread about the ill famed tournament all those years ago. i even knew about all that in the early days of my stay at SD. i just chose not to be a part of the BS. But sooner or later you will step in the BS, especially when it permeates the kwoon floor, and sometimes the BS gets picked up and thrown at you, as it was me several times at the school. yet i still dedicated myself and proved my loyalty, but money,politics and ego blinds people, as it has many people,,,even me.


peace,,TWS.


Peace,,,TWS

[Vash]

There is no Shaolin Do in Arkansas.

Food for thought.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Vash
There is no Shaolin Do in Arkansas.

Food for thought.

Funny you should say that; I've been thinking forgetting this law thing, moving to Arkansas, and opening a chain of SD schools. Untapped market there my friends! ;)

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


Funny you should say that; I've been thinking forgetting this law thing, moving to Arkansas, and opening a chain of SD schools. Untapped market there my friends! ;) And everyone in Arkansas is already barefooted....

[David Jamieson]

I have no idea why sd just doesn't avoid all this and call their thing what it is.

that is to say: "kempo karate".

as for s.olaf of the temple kf shenanigans of the highest order school of contractual obligations, LOL, Richard Shergold sued his(olaf's) arse a while back in theh province of Alberta and under oath simon was forced to admit that he never received any formal training in kungfu whatsoever, ever and that's means NEVER in his life.

He's a salesman and his temple mojodojowhojawuja gunk is total scump. lol.

ok, now that we have bashed the kempo karate guys and the know nothings about nothings, we can actually see that kungfu comes from within and has nothing to do with anything more than the inner truths.

so long as you cling to an external object or reference, you will not attain kungfu.

as you can see, i don't have it, and neither do any of you. :D

because if we did, this place and all within it would be of no concern to us whatsoever

nothing personal, just saying.

cheers!

[Judge Pen]

It appears that the other "tournament" thread has been deleted.

I wanted to say that I've received a personal e-mail from John Dufresne regarding the tournament tape and Frank Sexton. Based on this e-mail, I'm going to let the issue of the tape go. Frank owes me no apology for representing that he had a tape that he doesn't have.

If one has a copy of this tape, I would like to see it, but it's not worth arguing with Frank Sexton over a tape that may or may not exist. It's another unanswered question.

[David Jamieson]

all these guys who are co-opting the shaolin thang would be best off just doing there thing for what their thing is.

Sin Thé is a good practitioner of the martial arts. I have no idea why he has to put out the highly dubious history and lineage that he does.

For that matter, I don't understand why anyone has to do that kind of thing. It really doesn't make a difference when it comes down to brass tacks and whether you have the skeelz or not.

If you got it, you got it, if people wanna know where you got it, tell em straight up and there is no need to make up all this stuff or to start speculating about old stories and half baked legends.

GUys with for real lineages are really the only ones who can make the lineage claims, why try to steal their thunder? Afetr all, there are practitioners out there with rock solid lineages that are not eactly the best practitioners or teachers.

then there are guys who have lineages that are all over the place but their personal skill and ability to teach is A1!

Go figure WHY they would want to destroy themselves and their credibility by putting out fairy tales!

It kills me.

ah well , I guess I'll keep at it, it's good and I like it.

[Radhnoti]

MK, It's my understanding that SD doesn't "own" that picture, Master Hiang's group Chung Yen Shaolin has it. I've never seen it on a SD site.

To me, shaolin-do fits fairly well under the category of "kuntao", though I admit I have only spotty info about what defines an Indonesian martial art. Here's what someone said on another forum that led me in that direction:

"I don't know much about Sin The, but I do know a fair amount about Indonesians and martial arts. The 'history' as related by Sin The is pretty common amongst post WWII Indos- wearing gi or dobok is very common as are 'belts'; mixed styles are very common; the use of entire style names to describe particular techniques is very common; secretive teachers who hid their true names is very common; interrupted and 'partial' lineages is very common; teachers who have studied multiple arts and combined them is very common- and so on. If there is something *uncommon* about Sin The's group, it is that they don't fight much. In Indo styles, the fighting is the *center* of the style- you can call it anything you want, wear any kind of clothes, tell any history you care to- all you have to do is step up." - Chas

To add to that...we spar for every belt, and GM Sin is always advising us to "use what WORKS for you in a fight". Fighting, I think, IS central to shaolin-do. A shaolin-do'er later responds to Chas' post with:
"In the schools with which I was associated, the so-called 'western' schools ...there was a great deal of fighting.....I myself had a few minor breaks and a couple of minor surgeries on my eyes related to sparring injuries." - mikel
Chas responds:
"Ah, sounds more like Indo stuff all the time <g> Ref Sin The's stuff, I only know what I've read on the ng. I remember thinking at the time how closely it paralleled the things I'd heard and read about in Indo systems- then I saw that he was Indonesian of mostly Chinese extraction ....in particular, it is true that they claim to teach truly incredible numbers of forms and styles, but that so far as I can tell none of the tactical, strategic, or 'shen fa' skills of the styles are taught, or even understood by the advanced instructors. Again, there are some parallels to Indo styles that I've seen; lots of forms, lots of 'styles'- In contrast, the tactical and strategic skills were what caught me with the de Thouars bros.- I'd seen a lot of forms before <g> My last teacher was just the opposite- his position was that you pick 5 or 6 movements to practice while you learn to fight. Most of my practice of the last 5 years or so has been paring down the superfluous movement into a few multiple application kinds of technic. For example, they teach several T'ai Chi forms and claim that their interpretation of T'ai Chi is much more martial than anyone else's, but nobody I ever saw or worked with in the system ever showed any understanding of the basic shen fa ('body skills') of T'ai Chi or even that such a thing existed. It's interesting that some go one way and some another. There seem to some Indo systems that have the basic body skills without the specific choreography and some that have similar choreography that don't do the basic mechanical skill that distinguishes taiji from other arts. I also see people/systems that have *some* of the basic skills and not others- an incomplete transmission if you will. As I've said before, taiji is very popular in Indonesia- whether it is 'real' or not is something yet again. Lots of systems teach aspects of taiji- some seem to have the same mystique surrounding them that the 'true' taiji does. All of this has little to do with Sin The, as I know nothing about him or his style except as being an Indo influenced one."


Based on comments like this and a few books I've been able to read (Bob Orlando, etc.) I would tend to classify SD as kuntao. To be specific, I think it's a Chinese martial art taught in and altered by Indonesia and now presented to a U.S. audience. It's this last bit that's problematic to the definition, as it's possible when catering to U.S. students to take it easier on them. After all, they can go down the street and pay for TKD lessons that don't hurt half as much. I think the SD compromise for this...in most schools...has been to step up the intensity significantly after black belt/sash.
All of which means nothing since the Grandmaster has made it quite clear that he could care less what classification it falls under...but I've never heard anyone in the SD community refer to it as an Indonesian martial art. Kind of makes me wonder if the prejudice we've always heard the Indonesians had for the Chinese went both ways? A "they hate us, so we hate them" kind of thing? Or in this case, "We were persecuted in Indonesia, so there's no way I'd consider this an Indonesian art."?
Just more "late night speculation" on my part...

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
I think the SD compromise for this...in most schools...has been to step up the intensity significantly after black belt/sash.

Rad, I think this is a nice analysis. It's no doubt SD has been influenced by something other than pure TCMA. Everyone here assumes it's karate or TKD because of the body mechanics and terminology, but the Indonesian influence is the most logical since that's where the style was taught to GM Sin The.

As for your quote, that is definately the truth. My skills and understanding have tripled since I made black sash. I have more time to focus on the details and the mechanics of my forms as well.

[themeecer]

Heck, we don't even consider one a student until they have recieved their blackbelt. Until then they are only customers. Other schools put black belt/sash at their top .. for us it is the bottom rung of the ladder.

[Judge Pen]

I would prefer the idea of "rankings" if we only had these titles: beginer until you reach black, student from 1st black until 3rd black, advanced student at 3rd and 4th, and Master after 5th; ust cut down on all the colored ranks and let people know that the journey doesn't really begin until you reach black.

If only I were king. . .

[The Willow Sword]

originally quoted by the meecer.

Heck, we don't even consider one a student until they have recieved their blackbelt. Until then they are only customers.

this is one of the reasons why i left SD. you dont TREAT beginning students as Customers,,you arent selling propane you are apparently teaching a martial art.

man i wish that i could post this to the uhh "customers" at your school.:rolleyes:


TWS

[Judge Pen]

Meece's choice of words aside, we were making a similar point. What do you think of the underlying point TWS? Rank aside, you are not a student unitl you reach black?

and MK, I wouldn't have to worry about rank and title if I were king, would I? :p

[CaptinPickAxe]

Thats Bullsh!t.
Thats how you know its a corporation not a family art.

[Chang Style Novice]

I gotta say, that is the SH!TTIEST attitude toward those you teach I've ever heard of. Lets try transferring it into other educational contexts...

"Until these kids are in college, we don't even consider them students, they're just customers."

Pretty ugly, isn't it?

The fact is, the most important time in anything's development is the begininng. A tower built on a marsh will never stand.

[Radhnoti]

CaptinPickAxe - "Thats how you know its a corporation not a family art."

So, you're saying most family arts don't have regular and "closed door" students? How DARE SD teachers not immediately teach students everything and completely avoid evaluating them! :rolleyes:

[The Willow Sword]

originally quoted by judge pen.

Meece's choice of words aside, we were making a similar point. What do you think of the underlying point TWS? Rank aside, you are not a student unitl you reach black?

We, as in all of us, will ALWAYS be a student. Rank? rank is for the military, not a kwoon/dojo.
back in the old days when martial arts wasnt so capitollized on and basterdized in to the western crap that it is, there WAS not system of rank,,Just an acknowledgement of student, disciple(if you happened to be a part of a monastery) and Master(IF you were recognized as such by others and not claimed yourself)
the japanese had originally 4 levels of "rank" in their traditional dojos: white yellow brown and black: and even then you were not considered a "Student" until you swept the floor and was able to attain enough humility and dedication to even wear a belt.

the fact that these days are filled with such egotistical bullsh!T and yes even at SD, where you are not accepted as "one of the gang" until you reach a certain belt ranking is just absurd.
I, as many others here, have to go with it just to attain any type of knowledge from the uhh"masters" we are learning from.
belt ranking is an ego thing anyway,,i could care less that you have ablack belt in whatever you study. the manner of respect and honor that is attained is not in seeing the belt that holds your Gi together,,but the manner in which you carry yourself with others and how you treat the ones who are just beginning and look to you for guidence and teaching.
and apparently at Meecers school they are "customers". and that attitude REFLECTS on the school and it also reflects on all of the schools.
i will say this , in my years teaching at sd i NEVER considered "students" to be beneath me nor did i EVER think of them as a "customer" and when i WAS teaching i wasnt at the head of the class, i was right in there with them and amongst them. they were not "customers" and not worthy of the time of an "upper rank" outside the school or inside.



Peace ,,TWS

[Chang Style Novice]

Wow, Rad -

That's got to be the strawiest straw man I've ever seen in my life!

Congratulations! You've managed to respond sarcastically to an idea that no-one ever put forth!

[CaptinPickAxe]

So, you're saying most family arts don't have regular and "closed door" students? How DARE SD teachers not immediately teach students everything and completely avoid evaluating them!

I have to say your good at distorting what I say.
I mean as opposed to treating them as customers, they should treat them as potential students. But, your good at the sarcasm thing...maybe it will help you someday...or not.

[joedoe]

stu·dent n.
1. One who is enrolled or attends classes at a school, college, or university.

2. One who studies something:
a. a student of contemporary dance.
b. An attentive observer: a student of world affairs.

[Shaolin-Drunk]

I am offended as a shaolin dough "customer"!

That is only pouring salt on the SD wound!

Is that how all of the SD schools think of us as consumers?!! But isn't enough you all come around with these "OPEN HAND" (And I mean that in a begging way,"send money even if you can't attend") seminars expecting us blind patrons to empty our pockets to learn a form that we will learn later down the road when we are finally considered worthy of being called a "student"??

C'mon, give me a break..

[Serpent]

Once again, meecer. Once again.

You're bloody priceless, mate.

:)

[CaptinPickAxe]

I think Shaolin-Do is for form collectors and people who like to give money away. I learned jack-**** at shaolin-do. Wait...I take that back. I learn how to do the horse stance wrong, that Sin The' can kick the corner of a stone pillar full force and not break his leg, and that "you should bite out pressure points when grappling". ****e! Excuse me while I vomit.

The true colors of the Sifu's are showing. I think Judge Pen is the only respectable SDer. It makes me sick that people can exploit peoples weakness and lack of knowledge as a chance to suck the lining out of their pockets. Peh!:mad:

[David Jamieson]

From what I've seen, I don't know why anyone would want to collect sd forms LOL :p

I would rather collect cool forms if i was gonna collect forms.

in relation to rads comment regarding closed door and other students.

a closed door student is someone who is given a complete style in the hopes they willl be yet another link in the lineage and carry the art forward.

most people don't get this sort of training for a couple of reasons:

a) they don't want it

b) the teacher is picky

c) there is some funky cosmology tied to the lineage IE "there can be only 5"

d) they don't stick around long enough to get advanced training

e) the end of the road happened and there is nothing left to do but move on

f) any number of other reasons

As an aside, meecer, i would say that you take a remarkably elitist attitude towards your fellows. lol especially considering that your art ain't all that elite in the grand scheme of chinese martial arts.

in fact, i don't even think sd is chinese martial arts, never mind that it is not shaolin. but that is an argument that you and other sd-ers will never stop hearing no matter how much cotton you stick in your ears and sing at the top of your lungs "lalalalalalalalalalalalalala...I'm not listening!!! I"m NOT LISTENING!!!!!!"LALALALALALALAAL"


hahahahaha.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
man i wish that i could post this to the uhh "customers" at your school.:rolleyes:
No need, I tell them this up front.

Does this tick you off? I don't care. They have not shown themselves ready to be students yet. I spend a lot of time turning them from customers into students, though. And for $30 a month, it really doesn't take that much to be a customer. Being a customer is not a bad thing ..... 80% of our students are 'customers.' A lot of the training at blackbelt and higher would run off most of our customers. For example, the first time they felt the sting of the 'rope' against their back in our weight jacket training class and they would hit the door. Our iron shin training would run off the remaining bit.

If my use of the word 'customer' bothers you, for one I've already said I don't care, secondly 'customer' doesn't mean we are raking in lots of cash from them. We've had customers that haven't paid a single cent to take classes. Our classes are ran like a family. I would stand in front of anyone who tried to hurt one of our own. I care about them deeply. I am not paid a single cent to teach classes and that doesn't bother me. I do it because I love the art and I love teaching others the art.

[CaptinPickAxe]

So, meec, are you trying to be an business man or a sifu?

[themeecer]

Neither, being a sensei. ;)

I edited my above post .. as you can probably see. I am not in it for the money. I make no money from it.

[Radhnoti]

My teacher has asked disruptive and/or violent people to leave and not return. At least one made it to brown belt before he got really arrogant and showed his cruel streak. He never made black belt at our school, he was asked to leave...and supposedly no other shaolin-do teacher taught him without a recommendation from his old teacher. At the time, my teacher was only teaching for free...so I suppose I couldn't really call him a customer, but I understand themeecer's terminology very well. Everything up to black is not just teaching the basic curriculum, it's an evaluation.

CaptinPickAxe - "I mean as opposed to treating them as customers, they should treat them as potential students."

I don't see any SDer saying anywhere that they don't treat customers as potential students. The two are not mutually exclusive. Most places are VERY good to their customers, offering them as much for their money as possible to encourage their return. But, make no mistake, in shaolin-do everything picks up after black and to get to black you have to meet some requirements. Sorry if that shatters your image of SD as some money raking scam, but that's been my experience.

[Ralphie]

IME at SD, I found the black belts to be just as poor as the lower belts. They were just more agressive, but did not nec. have the skill. There were a few tough guys that were black belts, though. However that was their nature, not nec. their training. So, and it may be at just the school I went to, besides being in a little better condition there was not a gaping skill difference between a yellow belt and a 2nd or 3rd degree black belt. By the time I was a blue belt there I was tooling some of the sneidly black belts. Also, and this may be because of teaching or the lower student seen as a $, but the upper belts had horrible basics. I know one SD guy who almost killed 2 guys at the annual SD black belt sparring sessions, because they never learned how to properly protect themselves. He went a little too hard, and sent both guys to the hospital, one each in consecutive years. Luckily, there was an emt on both occasions during the sparring matches. One guy had to be resuscitated, and the other guy had blood gushing out of his ears. He had to have a titanium plate put in his head.
I think that the guys back east are better, but as an old SD guy said to me recently "it's still SD, and they still struggle to make that **** work".

[Vash]

That ain't cool. I can say that, from experience, Black Belt, 1st degree and up, MUST have EXCELLENT control. Indeed, there is the "need" to show just how bad@$$ you be, but injuring a LOWER RANK is never called for. :mad:

But, maybe I'm biased. Been out for over a year now 'cuz some dude didn't have enough control. And this was in a style that claims to be karate :eek: :D

[Evad]

In a lot of ways I totally agree with what Ralphie and Vash just said. And I'm a little late in posting this but here it goes just for the record of my worthless two cents...

I'm going to try to explain our definition of a 'customer.' It is not the same thing as someone who shops at wal-mart.

First of all we do not treat our students like they are customers in the sense of thank you for your money here's a form, go spar unsupervised with your buddies, NEXT.....

We all fall into the three main catagoriesof masters, desciples, and students, but I would venture to describe a fourth catagory of student. And that would be the 'customers.' I'm sure everyone on this board has had one at some point.

You know the parents that drop off the kids at the day care karate school that are TOTALLY not interested in karate, they hit and miss class and don't care about anything you have to teach? We respect them just the same when they do show up to class, but they'll miss like three weeks out of a month, and then the parents come in for once and want to make an issue out of the fact that their kids don't have their belt yet, and don't know any karate, they want their money back blah blah blah

Or we've had the guy who is all gung ho about all the training and wants the hard core stuff, but then always has something wrong with him so he can't train with everyone. "My knee hurts.....I sprained my ankle......I have a headache.....etc for OH about 1yr and after all that time still doesn't know anything but wants his rank just the same. Goes to a different school and know it all.

Basically a customer is anyone that takes your time as an instructor away from someone who is sincerely interested in learning. We give them the same respect and interest as we do everyone, but they can disrupt the class by being selfish or uninterested. Sometimes they make four classes in five months and then complain about not getting enough material or getting left behind by the people they started with, or we're a biased dojo because they spent all this money and time and didn't learn anything.

A student though is a very precious thing to have and not to be taken lightly. We're responsible as teachers to provide a good example of what we teach, and part of that is acknowledging that as much as we'd like, we simply can't force ALL the students to be equal. Some will excel, others will quit, some will excel and quit go somewhere else.

'Customers' are shopping for something do, and expect to be treated as 'customers.' Students are searching for something bigger than themselves, are hungry for knowledge, and when they're ready, the teacher will appear.

As hard as it is to find a good credible style taught by a good credible teacher, it's 10,000 times that hard for a teacher to find a good student.

To be a good teacher, there has to be something there to teach. Not something that is searching for another 'thang' to add to their list of things they've done. We don't like people who come to the school to be customers, we want hard working sincere students. And we treat all prospects with equal care and attention. I'm positive all of our instructors appreciate our dedication, loyalty, and hard work.

The point is for me personally I don't expect anyone back to our school until they get their black belt/sash, because I know that at that point they are most likely going to be there again next week to learn, they understand that the journey never ends. Before black belt/sash it's my responsibility as a teacher to lead by example and make the journey something worthwhile so that they will be back next week until they get their black belt/sash. I always try to make it worth their time to be at class, cause they may quit at any moment, heck they may even find some nasty things said about our style on a forum or something....who knows.....;)

[John Dufresne]

I can personally understand the points being made. I had quite a few large schools over the years and frankly, I got burned out teaching students that were not interested in learning- My teacher told me along time ago that "there is no such thing as a bad teacher, only bad students"; I didnt get his point at the time. As the years went by I understand more of what he meant. As a student we are incharge of what we learn and who we learn it from.
Humility gains Knowlege
Knowlege gains Wisdom
and Wisdom gains Understanding.

It is impossable to force feed students. It kills me when a student want to convince me how much he wants to learn. They spend so much time each class explaining to me of their intention to gain knowlege. Today in my life, I choose to teach a few-not the masses- its much easier on me and my students can digest more- however I expect alot in return. If I teach something they are required to digest it by practise and time.
If they do not -its obvious, and the information stops. When I had to pay my rent , phone bill, elect. ect... it become easy for us as teachers to compromise our standard. to except a student just because be pays the bills- I found myself becomming everything I hated. That is why I personally have retracted to a smaller class, with very little overhead. Students that are a joy to work with and they honor me by their development.

Sincerely
Sifu John Dufresne

[David Jamieson]

Instead of being their sensei, be their Sifu. It might make a difference in their training.

It would certainly make a huge difference in "his" perspective.
So much so he would likely leave the sd corporation for corporate incorporation of incorporated martial arts incorporated. :D

[Judge Pen]

Ralphie and I have discuseed in PMs the differences in our experiences training in SD. I respect where he is coming from. While 'customer' isn't the term I would chosen, I think Evad explained how it was meant to be taken admirable.

When I started in SD, there were 35 white belts in my group. (that's a large number considering the area I grew up; there were only 96 people in my graduating high school class and I lived in the county seat). 3 and 1/2 years later two of us tested for black. I was singled out early as a good student that was going to make it if I kept up with my practice. I hear you guys say, 'well that's just natural ability and not the SD training.' It was some natural ability, sure, but I wasn't the most physically gifted person in my group and I never will be. At the time I was a c o cky aggressve kid who worked hard. I didn't shy away from hard training or aggressive sparring. In fact, I was too aggressive and my teacher made a point to teach my humility and CONTROL. That was the biggest thing he impressed upon me as a martial artist.

My teacher wasn't "in the business." He was independently wealthy in the natural gas business. He only charged $20 a month and taught one night a week. He invited me and another student to train with him personally one other night a week. He built me up and broke me down at the same time. He made me a better person and a better martial artist.

My current teachers are also excellent. They force me to grow and get better. They know my strengths and weaknesses and tailor my training to the maximum benefit. If the former SD students here have had bad experiences with their instruction, then I feel sorry for them. I am only the sum effort of my teachers, and all the natural ability in the world wouldn't have made me who I am today.

The moral of this story: Whether its SD or any other art, you will only be as good as your teachers. We all know that some students will come and some will go and only a very small % of them will get what you are teaching. You teach for thoses students, but its the transitional students that allow you to keep your doors open.

[Bluesman]

Sifu John,
You have made an observation that escapes most schools. To have a large school you have to cater to what most want which is not what most instructors want. It is more of a commitment then the majority of the population will give. So you have to lower your standards or have smaller classes. Of course a good teacher can inspire the students to achieve to their potential but most have what they think is a life and will only devote a set amount of time to practice. Make class too hard and you will lose some students, too easy and you cheat others.
I had a small club in the mid/late '80s and offered to teach for free a class on Saturdays that would involve conditioning and going over the basics. Out of my 23 students only one showed up. The others did not want to give up their Saturday mornings.
I did not care for English class untill I met this one English teacher that made it fun. I even studied!!! If you are giving the majority of students what they want, lose weight, get a cardio work out, socializing etc. then you are giving to them what they expect. Maybe the best instructors give what the students expect and then push them further by making it fun.

[John Dufresne]

Bluesman,

I totally agree!!!!

[Evad]

Originally posted by Bluesman
Sifu John,
You have made an observation that escapes most schools. To have a large school you have to cater to what most want which is not what most instructors want. It is more of a commitment then the majority of the population will give. So you have to lower your standards or have smaller classes. Of course a good teacher can inspire the students to achieve to their potential but most have what they think is a life and will only devote a set amount of time to practice. Make class too hard and you will lose some students, too easy and you cheat others.
I had a small club in the mid/late '80s and offered to teach for free a class on Saturdays that would involve conditioning and going over the basics. Out of my 23 students only one showed up. The others did not want to give up their Saturday mornings.
I did not care for English class untill I met this one English teacher that made it fun. I even studied!!! If you are giving the majority of students what they want, lose weight, get a cardio work out, socializing etc. then you are giving to them what they expect. Maybe the best instructors give what the students expect and then push them further by making it fun.

I completely agree as well, you said in less words what took me a large post to say:D

[Bluesman]

JP,
I remember teaching a class that had two guys in it about the same age. One had been on the football and basketball teams, a natural athlete. He picked things up quickly. I had thought that this is a student that every instructor hoped for.
The other guy was skinny and found it very difficult to move his legs and arms at the same time. Thought he would not make through his free month of class. Boy was I wrong about the two of them.
At the end of the first year, the athlete was still better but not nearly as much. The other guy worked his butt off and was one of the better students in class. By the end of the second year he was the best in his class.

[John Dufresne]

"The good will become bad and the bad will become good":confused:

[The Willow Sword]

[QUOTE]Does this tick you off? I don't care. They have not shown themselves ready to be students yet.

"Oh i see so walking in the door paying the tuition,expressing thier desire to train there and put up with your ego isnt worthy enough to be considered a student?(pfffft) and just for your info a "customer" is valued in a buisness, in ANY other buisness setting a "Customer" isnt seen as not worthy enough to puechase something because HE hasnt spent enough time in the buisness"

{Quote}I spend a lot of time turning them from customers into students, though. And for $30 a month, it really doesn't take that much to be a customer. Being a customer is not a bad thing ..... 80% of our students are 'customers.'

"Here we go again with your inflated view of yourself and your school with this "customer being turned into a "student" thing.
and you tell these people right up front that you view them as such? i find it sad that most of the people in this country are viewed and view themselves as a "paying customer" rather than a human being. so your screwed up image of a $ sign on thier face dissapates after they attain black?"

"
{quote}"A lot of the training at blackbelt and higher would run off most of our customers. For example, the first time they felt the sting of the 'rope' against their back in our weight jacket training class and they would hit the door. Our iron shin training would run off the remaining bit"

What is your point? Since they are customers and not worthy of such "training" why even bring this up? Do you even know the stupidity of what you are typing Meecer? But hey ,who am i to tell you how you should view your STUDENTS. But more people are going to read this as many frequent these boards and your approach to the people expressing thier interest in learning what YOU have to offer(and you dont have much i'll tell you that) will turn your potential "Customers" away.
And besides ,this forum regards what you study as a bunch of cr@p anyway. So you are reduced to having "customers" who are ignorant of certain aspects of your organization and will flow through your doors like sh!t through a goose.
30 bucks a month eh? thats about all you CAN charge for what YOU personally teach.
:rolleyes:



TWS

[MasterKiller]

Congrats on 1,000 posts, TWS....again.

[The Willow Sword]

1001

[themeecer]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
[B][QUOTE] Oh i see so walking in the door paying the tuition,expressing thier desire to train there and put up with your ego isnt worthy enough to be considered a student?

What I said was not egotistical, it was realistic. Most people never become students (black belts). Walking up to the door and paying 'tuition' does not deem them worthy enough to be a student yet.


(pfffft) and just for your info a "customer" is valued in a buisness, in ANY other buisness setting a "Customer" isnt seen as not worthy enough to puechase something because HE hasnt spent enough time in the buisness"

I never said a customer wasn't valued. I simply said they are not considered students yet.


"Here we go again with your inflated view of yourself and your school with this "customer being turned into a "student" thing.
and you tell these people right up front that you view them as such? i find it sad that most of the people in this country are viewed and view themselves as a "paying customer" rather than a human being. so your screwed up image of a $ sign on thier face dissapates after they attain black?"

That is not in inflated view of myself nor of my school. And like I said, I do say this to their face. I want to speak to the ones who want to prove me wrong, I want them to be like "By durn .. I'll show him, I'm going to become a student!!" I love that. I am their sensei first, then their friend. I am not going to hold their hand and tell them they are something they are not yet. I build them up, yes. I praise every instance of improvement I see.

This cuts both ways. If one of our customers compliments my skill, I can simply say I am merely a student. I have hardly even scratched the surface.

Last night I had some of our brownbelt customers reading this thread and they got a kick out of it. These 'poor oppressed customers' understand the concept that you have no ability to grasp. And let me tell you, these brownbelt customers are going to make some dang fine students soon, they are already some very fine customers.

And let me repeat, since you have either missed it or ignored it, I don't see dollar signs when I look at customers. I don't make a single penny from teaching.


What is your point? Since they are customers and not worthy of such "training" why even bring this up? Do you even know the stupidity of what you are typing Meecer?

Why do I bring this up? To demonstrate to you the difference between a student and a customer. When they are ready to tackle these harder obstacles, they finally become a student.



But hey ,who am i to tell you how you should view your STUDENTS.
The smartest thing you have said on this thread.

A final note we also use the word disciple interchangeably at our school for student. This should demonstrate our reasoning of not throwing the word student around loosely for everyone who walks in the door.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by themeecer
A final note we also use the word disciple interchangeably at our school for student. This should demonstrate our reasoning of not throwing the word student around loosely for everyone who walks in the door. Do you have a ceremony, or do you just use the term?

[Judge Pen]

Ther ceremony is the test and a sash and certificate presentation.

TWS, Chris, you two will not agree on this. The disagreement is the symantics of the word "customer." Just let it go, I think we all understand the points you are both making.

[themeecer]

When they 'become students/disciples?" Not really. We recognize them formally in class and from then on they sit with all the black belts facing all the colored belts. A ceremony would be nice though.

I do need to make a note.... it is not like I say to a group of people ... "You customers do all your short forms." I actually call them students at this time. So at times I flip back and forth with my terminology. But they do realize we don't really consider them true students till they are black belts.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
TWS, Chris, you two will not agree on this. The disagreement is the symantics of the word "customer." Just let it go, I think we all understand the points you are both making.
I agree.

[Ralphie]

I've never heard it before with SD, but do you guys really use the term sensei for the instructors?
There were some good people that I met at SD that were black belts. There were also a large amount of ****s with low self esteem, who would run over to fight the white belts and girls during sparring. Then they would talk crap for 2 hours, and leave. Total time working out was about 10 minutes.

[themeecer]

We do. I don't think you are a good authority to comment on what SD schools typically do, Ralphie, after your horror story of the sparring match where the one had to be resuscitated and the other had to get a steel plate in their head. I don't understand why any blackbelt would want to run over and spar the white belts or the girls. (Well maybe if the girls were hot.) I had always heard there were some big differences between the west coast and east coast schools.

Edit: Let me make a big edit here. I didn't mean to make it sound like I believed this type of behavior was the norm for the west coast schools. I totally don't believe that. I am simply saying that Ralphie has unfortunately seen some bad things that I have never seen at one of our schools.

[CaptinPickAxe]

don't see any SDer saying anywhere that they don't treat customers as potential students. The two are not mutually exclusive. Most places are VERY good to their customers, offering them as much for their money as possible to encourage their return. But, make no mistake, in shaolin-do everything picks up after black and to get to black you have to meet some requirements. Sorry if that shatters your image of SD as some money raking scam, but that's been my experience.

Sorry, Radh. But your account doesn't affect my view as much as you think it does. I was an SDer. I have my own views on it and nobody will change them. From paying over $70 dollars a month to learn pretty much nothing to going to free classes where I learn one of the most devestating arts. I learned about the truth in SD's marketing. You have this little idea that when you say something, I instantly change my view because your story is different. Thats not the way it works. I'll have to see a white buffalo from shaolin-do before my views change. So quit acting so pivotal...

[Ralphie]

Yuo're right, there are no good black belts at SD. I had no right to make a comment to the contrary.
That's a true story about those sparring incidents by the way. I'll leave his name out because of respect, and he has since left SD. I occasionally do mma/vale tudo type stuff with him, and he's actually a pretty nice guy. Tough as he!!, too. He won the Pan Ams a few years back as a blue belt for BJJ I believe. He laughed at your Golden Alligator Style, too.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe


I learned about the truth in SD's marketing. You have this little idea that when you say something, I instantly change my view because your story is different. Thats not the way it works. I'll have to see a white buffalo from shaolin-do before my views change.

This may be true in your area. I don't know. All I can say is that my teacher runs his school differently.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I certainly hope so, JP.
Its not just the San Antonio school, though. The Austin school, to my knowlege, is the same way. I know of your intentions, JP, and you've proven yourself as a worthy MAist and an alright guy (;) ), but my experience was so weird, distorted, and bad that I don't really trust SD. I don't trust Sin The'.

[Judge Pen]

I appreciate the comments, but I've only proven myself as good at keyboard kung fu. I'm still working on the other stuff.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Ralphie
He laughed at your Golden Alligator Style, too.
Well I'm happy for him.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Ther ceremony is the test and a sash and certificate presentation.

TWS, Chris, you two will not agree on this. The disagreement is the symantics of the word "customer." Just let it go, I think we all understand the points you are both making.

Well said - except that the word you are looking for is semantics :D

[Toby]

themeecer, why do you use the term sensei? Just curious.

[Radhnoti]

CaptinPickAxe - "So quit acting so pivotal..."

:confused:

The smart thing to do (in my opinion) is to always write like you're talking to the hypothetical third party reading the posts, I never think I'm changing a SD detractor's mind when I post. You gave your POV based on your experience (which was bad), I gave mine (which was/is good).



...actually, I do apologize for the bite I may have had in my posts lately. Life's been throwing a few curves my way lately. :o

[Vash]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
...actually, I do apologize

MY EYES! THEY BURN LIKE FIRE!

[Radhnoti]

;)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Toby
themeecer, why do you use the term sensei? Just curious.
Because he does karate.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by joedoe


Well said - except that the word you are looking for is semantics :D

:o Maybe I'm not as good at keyboard kungfu as I thought. :D

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Serpent

Because he does karate.

Well we call my teacher Sifu, does that mean I do kung fu? ;)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


Well we call my teacher Sifu, does that mean I do kung fu? ;)
No, it just means that you're masking the pretense slightly better.

:)

[Judge Pen]

Oh, ok. That makes snese: Just because a guy calls his teacher sensei he must be doing karate; however just because I call my teacher sifu means I don't do kung fu, but I hide the pretences better. Crystal clear now. :p

[Serpent]

No, no, no. He does karate and makes the mistake of calling it kung fu even though he calls his teacher sensei. You do karate and try to cover it up by calling your teacher sifu.

:p

[Judge Pen]

:confused: but I still call it kung fu. I'm learning chain whip and hook swords. I practice hsing-Ie. I did Pa Kua this moring. Please help me Serpent, what am I doing? :D

[The Willow Sword]

you are not doing karate you are not doing kung fu and you are certainly not doing the original shaolin curriculum.
you know what you are doing? you are doing Shaolin-do;)


TWS

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
:confused: but I still call it kung fu. I'm learning chain whip and hook swords. I practice hsing-Ie. I did Pa Kua this moring. Please help me Serpent, what am I doing? :D
Mate, I have no idea what you're doing. But it ain't..... etc., etc.

;)

[Toby]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Well we call my teacher Sifu, does that mean I do kung fu? ;) See, I just found it interesting that themeecer called his teacher/is called by students "sensei". I wondered if that were a Shaolin-Do wide practice. And if not, why his branch in particular would use that term. I mean, the old argument that Sin The' used the term "karate" in the early days because it was familiar to Americans doesn't really hold there I would imagine. I would think most people would be as unfamiliar with "sensei" as they would be with "sifu". That's why I was curious as to the origin of the use of "sensei".

[themeecer]

I don't know if it is like that over the entire art. I have called my teacher Sensei for 20 years. I don't think usage of the word sensei came from marketing in the early 70s. I think it is another remnant of our masking as a Japanese art, while still in Indonesia. If GM Sin was used to calling his teacher that for so many years I could clearly see why we still use it today. After calling my teacher this for 20 years I would never change it to sifu for any reason. Sounds like I am saying 'seafood' anyway. :D

[joedoe]

Originally posted by themeecer
I don't know if it is like that over the entire art. I have called my teacher Sensei for 20 years. I don't think usage of the word sensei came from marketing in the early 70s. I think it is another remnant of our masking as a Japanese art, while still in Indonesia. If GM Sin was used to calling his teacher that for so many years I could clearly see why we still use it today. After calling my teacher this for 20 years I would never change it to sifu for any reason. Sounds like I am saying 'seafood' anyway. :D

That's just your redneck accent :D

[themeecer]

Could be. I could imagine what an Australian accent would sound like saying it.

I actually had some bozos in college that thought I was either Australian or English after they first heard me speak. I think they were just smoking something. But it is true in some of the remote areas of the Appalachian Mountains that their language is very close to Old English. Basically these people settled there years ago and have been isolated for so long their language has not mutated.

[Toby]

OK then - so why don't other branches use "sensei" too? Does Sin The' expressly say that schools should use "sensei" or "sifu"?

[joedoe]

I've been told that even the Boston accent resembles the Australian accent! And someone even tried to tell me a Texan accent had similarities!

Anyway, good to see you didn't take my joke the wrong way :)

[Radhnoti]

Just agreeing with themeecer here. My teacher's been at it a while too (20+ years)...and he indicates that he's always called all of his teachers (he's had several) sensei. But, he lets us call him sifu or sensei interchangably.
I think there's a bit of a movement in SD these days toward changing the outward trappings to make SD more Chinese. Maybe it's to avoid having to explain the whole Indonesian portion of SD history...which, I think, is pretty sketchy. You never hear anyone go into any great detail about much that went on in Indonesia, or at least I haven't. Or maybe it's a "back to the roots" sort of thing, a lot of schools that use the Chinese honorifics are also wearing the traditional Chinese uniforms. All of which, I think, is fine. To approximately quote GM Sin: "Whatever the teacher thinks is good for his school...IS good for his school."

[themeecer]

OK then - so why don't other branches use "sensei" too? Does Sin The' expressly say that schools should use "sensei" or "sifu"?

It is their perogative to call their teachers what they want to. I don't think GM Sin has ever told us what to call our teachers, besides calling them 'master' when they reach that rank.

Same thing with some of our schools wearing gis and belts while others wear frog buttons and sashes.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
... To approximately quote GM Sin: "Whatever the teacher thinks is good for his school...IS good for his school."

Except when it is bad for his school :D

[Bluesman]

I called my instructor, Mark.

[Judge Pen]

Well GM sin The could care less what we wear. He wears a gi. I wear frog buttons. He still seemed happy. Some other schools think we are being disrespctful though. It's really amusing to sit back and watch all the fuss over what we wear to train in.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah some guy in Canada makes all of our uniforms for us. They seem to wear better than most of the ones you can buy from a distributor.

Mandarin collars?

We have to wear white unis until we reach black. Once we reach 1st black we can wear all balck or white with black trim or a variation. After we reach third, we can wear black tops with white cuffs, buttons, and trim. After 5th you can wear tops with red trim. Why? I don't know just to be uniform I guess.

[Judge Pen]

No, Master Mullins' students wear the pop up collar. The Atlanta groups tops are different. Almost a TKD type uniform with frog buttons. Different.

See the guy getting kicked in this pic? He's wearing a uni with a black trimmed pop-up collar.

http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/gallery/showpic.php?pic=/gallery/straw_plains/mike_kick.jpg