Dai Nim Tao

[PQS]

Can anyone help please, what is Dai Nim Tao ? is it a form? or a sub form?
Many Thanks
Peter

[Midnight]

I have no personal knowledge of this, however I did find this online which may help.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/what/forms/dainimtao.html

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Dai Lin Tau (Big First Training) (Not "Nim") is the second section of basics Leung Jan Sifu kept from his original Siu Lin Tau (Little First Training) form to teach his Koo Lo pupils. It contains 3 sections with 3 cycles and also includes Som Bai Fut and Sae Mun Bai Jee.

The term you are refering to as Dai Nim Tau (Big Idea) is most likely the Lee Shing version of the Koo Lo set as preserved by his pupils. Joseph Lee has an article that briefly talks about this set.


Hope this helps!

[CFT]

I don't want to start off another lineage war or anything, but just genuinely curious .....

What extra benefit does practicing Dai Lin(Nim) Tau confer on the practitioner? What attributes are you training for (to paraphrase Ernie)?

Are the movements, etc. the same as Siu Lin(Nim) Tau but choreographed differently?

[[~T~]G]

Siu Nim Tao is included in Dai Nim Tao as a single set (DNT has 12 sets). This set contains something similar to the first section of the SNT, where the fook sau moves horizontally outwards from the chest.

The other 11 sets has alot of movements different to Hong Kong/Yip Man Wing Chun

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


I don't want to start off another lineage war or anything, but just genuinely curious .....

No problem as this info. is pretty common. There really is nothing to battle over!

What extra benefit does practicing Dai Lin(Nim) Tau confer on the practitioner? What attributes are you training for (to paraphrase Ernie)?

The human body can only move in so many ways. The root actions being taught in the SLT/DLT not only change your tendons/sinews, teach bridge reference points, ging paths, etc..

Are the movements, etc. the same as Siu Lin(Nim) Tau but choreographed differently?

They are similar but different. A bit of an Older flavor if that is a good way to say it!


Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Siu Nim Tao is included in Dai Nim Tao as a single set (DNT has 12 sets). This set contains something similar to the first section of the SNT, where the fook sau moves horizontally outwards from the chest.

The term you are using to describe the entire Sup Yee Jong set from Leung Jan Sifu as Da Nim Tao is Lee Shing's term. He called the 12 set Dai Nim (Big Idea) but traditionally Dai Lin Tau is just one section. Leung Jan's set does contain 12 sections to its training and begins with SLT and finishes with Fook Fu. JR

[Nick Forrer]

Hi

I have a friend who does Gulao WC and he has shown me the DLT a couple of times.

Things that stuck out to me at the time were

-The way they do Sam bai fut (three prayers to buddha i.e. the first sec. of SLT)- here as fuk goes forward wu sau comes back at the same time i.e. both hands are in action at once.

-The use of multiple elbows from different angles (like Muay Thai)

-An action to help you escape from an arm lock which is not in any of the Yip man forms (at least it is not performed that way)

-Recovery from death i.e. a kind of upward spiralling motion (as i remember it)

=and subduing the tiger- a bit like the elbow biu combination in the first section of Biu gee.

This was just my outsiders impression though so take it for what its worth i.e. very little!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Nick,


All people do things with their own emphacis so I will just reply with what I know is the standard way with the Fung's of Koo Lo! JR


-The way they do Sam bai fut (three prayers to buddha i.e. the first sec. of SLT)- here as fuk goes forward wu sau comes back at the same time i.e. both hands are in action at once.

Never heard of this nor have I seen it done this way! SBF does follow a different path than straight forward/backward as the angle is different and both hands only cycle together when the transition is in progress. Otherwise the rear hand Wu stays slightly lower and in your center while the other hands cycles. JR

-The use of multiple elbows from different angles (like Muay Thai)

Totally different as we do not throw elbows anything like Muay Thai. WC elbows are WC elbows. They cant be that different. JR

-An action to help you escape from an arm lock which is not in any of the Yip man forms (at least it is not performed that way)

Not sure which escape you are talking about so I cannot answer! JR

-Recovery from death i.e. a kind of upward spiralling motion (as i remember it)

Wan Wun Yiu uses a multi directional body/spine torqe and not just upward spiralling. JR

=and subduing the tiger- a bit like the elbow biu combination in the first section of Biu gee.

Totally different as Fook Fu is used for a totally diferent purpose and anlge which would not include any elbow skills. JR

This was just my outsiders impression though so take it for what its worth i.e. very little!

Thanks for your input. This would seem more like the Lee Shing version of Koo Lo/Pin Sun way which is a bit different from the way the Fung's teach the art. JR

[Nick Forrer]

Hi Jim

Double checked with my friend yesterday and firstly the elbows he showed me were not in his form but from something else his sifu showed him and secondly you're right- the wu sau does stay stationary as the fook sau moves -must have been an optical illusion!

The arm lock escape comes from crouching right down and holding your arm straight out behind you, 90 degrees to the body as if someone has you in that position.

Anyway Ill shut up now.

[reneritchie]

For clarity's sake:

Dai Lien Tao (Da Lian Tou) is one of the 12 sets (short series of movements) taught by Leung Jan to his Gulao, Heshan, Guangdong students after he retired and moved back there from Foshan (where he taught Chan Wah-Shun, Yip Man's sifu).

Dai Nim Tao (Da Nian Tou) is the name Lee Shing used to refer to all 12 of the sets.

Lien and Nim are different characters with different meanings.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by reneritchie
For clarity's sake:

Dai Lien Tao (Da Lian Tou) is one of the 12 sets (short series of movements) taught by Leung Jan to his Gulao, Heshan, Guangdong students after he retired and moved back there from Foshan (where he taught Chan Wah-Shun, Yip Man's sifu).

Dai Nim Tao (Da Nian Tou) is the name Lee Shing used to refer to all 12 of the sets.

Lien and Nim are different characters with different meanings.

Thank you for the clarification, Rene. Now that we know the difference between the two terms; may I ask who is Lee Shing? What is his relationship to Leung Jan? What kind of WC does he practice?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


I know this was directed towards Rene but I thought I could help! JR


may I ask who is Lee Shing?

Lee Shing was one of the first people to bring Wing Chun to the UK. He originally trained Koo Lo/Pin Sun WC with Fung Sang sifu (who is still alive) and then trained mainly with the Yip clan including YM. Lee Shing loved Martial Art and also did a variety of stuff outside of WC. JR

What is his relationship to Leung Jan?

None. JR

What kind of WC does he practice?

He main focus is a slightly modified version of Yip Man WC based on his experience. After one trained the Yip Man WC from him then they would be shown the PSWC. The Pin Sun WC that he taught also made use of YM body mechanics versus the Koo Lo proper mechanics and seems to be slightly modified compared to what his teacher preserves as does the Fung family. JR


Regards,

[canglong]

The chan Buddhism experience of reality occurs in three stages. Each stage serves to prepare the student for the next stage in the progression with the ultimate goal of enlightenment, or realizing one's true potentials through understanding and experiencing one's self-identity and true nature.

The second stage consist of two phases: understanding oneself (one's self identity) and one's relationship to the larger world (one's true nature). In Chan Buddhism, the "self" is called Siu Nim, meaning "Little Idea". To arrive at the stage of the "Little Idea" requires a strong sense of personal identity -- not a small accomplishment. To attain the first phase of reality is to understand one's self-identity through experience, education and reactions to influences from the outside world. The second phase involves understanding the surrounding universe. In Chan Buddhism, this understanding of the universe is termed Daai Nim , meaning "Big Idea." Through training, the student comes to understand and feel a connection to the universe. This awareness leads to a harmony with time, space and energy, the fundamental layer of reality. Rather than seeing oneself as a limited, unchanging and finite creature, one becomes united with the universe: limitless, changing, and infinite. While the world is continuously changing and moving, the change and movement occurs within time, space, and energy. When one realizes the "Big Idea," he fully realizes he is part of that changing energy moving within space and time. One continues to exist as a "Little Idea" with his own views and experiences of the world, but he also represents infinite potential. To continue the tea cup example, this stage would be the realization of the sides of the cup and the impermanent nature of material objects. The sides of the cup are time, space, and energy, and the impermanent nature of the cup (i.e., the contents of the teacup change from moment to moment by such actions as heating and cooling or filling and draining) is the flow and change of time space and energy. Mastering Kung Fu pg86 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0736045686/qid=1080790760/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-2461351-8904154?v=glance&s=books)

[Phenix]

The third, and possibly greatest, addition by Oyama in his synthesis of kyokushin karate is the concept of Zen. In a Zen state of mind, one thinks nothing. The mind is completely cleared of all intruding thoughts and emotions. The mind simply relaxes; it does not focus precisely on any particular detail. The mind focuses on nothing, yet perceives everything. Can this concept not be put to great use in karate?


Today in Japan, Mas Oyama heads the International Karate Organization, Kyokushin, one of the largest karate federations in the world.
While fighting, you stand facing your opponent. When the opponent attacks, you must quickly determine an attack is coming, what form it will take, where it is aimed, etc. All of this information must be relayed to the brain, where the decision is made about how to react. The brain must send a message to the body, telling it how to defend itself. This entire process takes only a fraction of a second, but what if the incoming attack is a fraction of a second faster?

If, on the other hand, you are in a Zen state while in combat, you perceive not the individual attack, but the entire situation. Your mind and body act as one, bypassing the normal reaction time to automatically perform the necessary defense measure. The normal thought process in an attack is: perception, contemplation and, finally, reaction. With Zen, you can bypass the contemplation phase and react directly after perception. Oyama, having realized this, has gone so far as to say "Karate is Zen," a thus, he makes Zen an integral part of his system.


-------------------------------------------------------------------



If, on the other hand, you are in a Zen state while in combat, you perceive not the individual attack, but the entire situation. Your mind and body act as one, bypassing the normal reaction time to automatically perform the necessary defense measure. The normal thought process in an attack is: perception, contemplation and, finally, reaction. With Zen, you can bypass the contemplation phase and react directly after perception.-------- Mas Oyama


This above is Non-dual. Non Subjective..........




"When the opponent attacks, you must quickly determine an attack is coming, what form it will take, where it is aimed, etc. All of this information must be relayed to the brain, where the decision is made about how to react. The brain must send a message to the body, telling it how to defend itself"

This above has to do with Thought or Niem in Cantonese. It is a kind of Subjective observation process. This is not Zen at all.

Non Dual or Non subjective or Zen state is a realization.
It is NOT about to understand and feel a connection or unite to the universe.

Chan is:
In a Zen state of mind, one thinks nothing. The mind is completely cleared of all intruding thoughts and emotions. The mind simply relaxes; it does not focus precisely on any particular detail. The mind focuses on nothing, yet perceives everything. -----Mas Oyama.

It needs only a single step------
The mind simply relaxes; it does not focus precisely on any particular detail. The mind focuses on nothing, yet perceives everything.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando


Dai Lin Tau (Big First Training) (Not "Nim") ...


Jim,

Dai Lin Tau makes sense .
Dai Nim Tau means big dream. Doesnt make sense.

[Jim Roselando]

Canlong/Tony & Hendrik,


Tony,


Thanks for the info but it has nothing to do with Siu Lin and Dai Lin!

We do not use the term Nim in Leung Jan teaching. Lee Shing adopted that from his Yip WC.


Hendrik,

Idea or Dream are not terms we utilize so for me Lin makes sense since its a bigger portion of skills retained from the Leung Jan's first form of Siu "Lin" Tau.


See ya,

[reneritchie]

Chinese literacy was not high back then (nor is it necessarily high amoung WCK people now) and Siu Lin or Dai Lin and Siu Nim or Dai Nim aren't that far apart phonetically.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Rene,


Chinese literacy was not high back then (nor is it necessarily high amoung WCK people now) and Siu Lin or Dai Lin and Siu Nim or Dai Nim aren't that far apart phonetically.


Good point!

To be honest when my sifu says those names you have to really listen closely as they sound almost the same. Very very similar. If we did not have him write down the Chinese characters then it would be an easy mistake to make!

Thanks for the input!


See ya,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hey Rene,


Chinese literacy was not high back then (nor is it necessarily high amoung WCK people now) and Siu Lin or Dai Lin and Siu Nim or Dai Nim aren't that far apart phonetically.


Good point!

To be honest when my sifu says those names you have to really listen closely as they sound almost the same. Very very similar. If we did not have him write down the Chinese characters then it would be an easy mistake to make!

Thanks for the input!


See ya,

Hey guys,

Great points.

However those artists from red boat opera has to know what they are singing. Thus, those fatan, siu mo....ect has to be literate.

As for the philosophical part, if one check into Mas Oyama's history. One can find Oyama did spend a large amount of time in studying Zen and buddhism. Thus, Oyama had a deep back ground on Zen which let him unite the body/ spirit and make possible for him to cultivate his Kyokushin.

As Oyama's view about chinese martial art in his book, there are truth in there. General Chinese art has travel a part from Chan. And, the recent publications about zen and wingchunkuen has indeed proof Oyama is right. Well Oyama walks his talk. and His zen or chan understanding is parallel with non-dual. It is very different then some qouting Zen but stuck in intelect theoretical level.

just some thoughts

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Hendrik!


Great points.

However those artists from red boat opera has to know what they are singing. Thus, those fatan, siu mo....ect has to be literate.


Thanks for the info.. Sifu mentions that Fung Chiu sigung spent much time explaining him the stategy, theory etc. of the art as well as writing down the Chinese characters etc.. He told me that those so-called inner/family guys were explained the fine points/details but as for their education I cant say! I tend to think they were educated at WC College more so than any University type education. Were the Red Boat people very educated??? Leung Jan was a doctor so I would imagine he had some intelligence besides his PHD in WC.

I dont speak Chinese but my junior does so I would have sifu write everything down for me in Chinese, explain it to me and then I gave it to him and we double checked the translations which was not easy as you need to speak WC almost to kind of get it they told me! hehe Even his Chinese teacher had some trouble with the translations but between them two and sifu we did ok I think??? It was not easy as a lot of stuff sounded similar but actually was different from what we thought. Just like this discussion when he would say Siu Lin we would ask him Lin or Nim etc.. He would slowly say it and then it almost sounded more like Lian or Lien afterward he would then say Little Training Set not Idea. The Lee Shing guys translated LS's chinese characters into Idea so I know the two were different which must have carried over from his YMWC or perhaps he just never asked Fung Sang sifu for the Chinese characters. Who knows!


Gotta run!

[canglong]

originally posted by hendrik
Dai Nim Tau means big dream. Doesnt make sense.
Title of the thread Dai Nim Tao
Definition of Daai Nim Tao from wingchunkuen.com (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/what/forms/dainimtao.html)

Mas Oyama studied wing chun kuen...
originally posted by Jim Roselando
The term you are using to describe the entire Sup Yee Jong set from Leung Jan Sifu as Da Nim Tao is Lee Shing's term. He called the 12 set Da Nim (Big Idea) but traditionally Dai Lin Tau is just one section.
originally posted by Jim Roselando
Thanks for the info but it has nothing to do with Siu Lin and Dai Lin! When read correctly you are right but it does have everything to do with Daai Nim Tao read the title again.

Jim you even acknowledge there are in fact 2 different terms with 2 different meanings and I believe for good reason so its not something that is not making sense it is someone.

[anerlich]

If, on the other hand, you are in a Zen state while in combat, you perceive not the individual attack, but the entire situation. Your mind and body act as one, bypassing the normal reaction time to automatically perform the necessary defense measure. The normal thought process in an attack is: perception, contemplation and, finally, reaction. With Zen, you can bypass the contemplation phase and react directly after perception.-------- Mas Oyama

Slightly offtopic, but:

This sounds very much like what Scott Sonnon of ROSS discusses when he talks about "Broad External Focus" and "Pre-Conscious Processing". The same concepts can be described without reference to Chan or Oriental terminology. Not to say they aren't valid, but no person, race or group has or had the franchise on them.

No disrespect to Mas Oyama or anyone else.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by anerlich
......
No disrespect to Mas Oyama or anyone else.


Human is human. Doesnt matter what is the term.


I bring up Mas Oyama here to show his view. Since Oyama walked his talked. The point is to let human understand what is what and what is going on.

[CFT]

To further muddy the waters ....

Due to a linguistic trend amongst native Cantonese speakers, known as "lazy sounds", alot of Cantonese words which were traditionally pronounced with an initial "N" are now pronounced with an initial "L".

Examples are:

South : Nam (trad) / Lam (lazy)
Year : Nin (trad) / Lin (lazy)
Girl/Woman: Nui (trad) / Lui (lazy)
Thought: Nim (trad) / Lim (lazy)

However, as stated previously, Nim (thought) and Lin (training) are 2 totally different characters.

Nim : http://zhongwen.com/d/169/x192.htm
Lin : http://zhongwen.com/d/189/x109.htm

[Jim Roselando]

Tony,



Title of the thread Dai Nim Tao
Definition of Daai Nim Tao from wingchunkuen.com


Please stop wasting time. Read the thread. This is Lee Shing's definition, not the proper term from Koo Lo/Leung Jan. Funny how you just link to Lee Shing's definition and not the one I listed on Rene's site even after I explained the difference. JR

When read correctly you are right but it does have everything to do with Daai Nim Tao read the title again.

I know the title and term very well. You just want it to be something it isn't or relate it to something (Chan) it does not relate to by Koo Lo family. JR

Jim you even acknowledge there are in fact 2 different terms with 2 different meanings and I believe for good reason so its not something that is not making sense it is someone.

This conversation is regarding Koo Lo WC and not your desired beliefs. Its very simple if you leave your desired beliefs out or as you say; "I Believe" its for a good reason. Unfortunately, even tho You believe its something it still has nothing to do with it. JR

Dai "Lin" Tau is the Leung Jan proper term as it related to his original skills from his Siu "Lin" Tau set.

Dai "Nim" Tau is Lee Shing's term which shows his connection to YMWC or possibly lack of the Chinese characters for the term.

Nothing more, nothing less. Sorry its just that simple!


Regards,

[reneritchie]

SNWCK uses Siu Lien Tao, but my late sigung liked the term Siu Nim. He would even say Da (not Dai, this one means 'hit', meaning to do in this sense) Nim Tao. Outside collecting, you have to weigh the value of what was against what is. I don't drive a Model T, so while a baseline and respect for the past is valuable, we live in the present.

Andrew - I just received and started watching some of Sonnon's ROSS stuff. Interesting. He speaks very 'high tech' but it seems like a rational, physiological, look at the material. (I sparred with a ROSS guy a year or so ago and got heel hooked, darn Russian MAs... :)

[canglong]

Jim,
Maybe you need to look at this in a different light nowhere in PQS's original question does he mention koo lo wing chun and even if he did he spelled it Daai Nim Tao so my post is was and will always be correct! If you want to discuss Dai Lin tao 'til you are blue in the face be my guess and start a thread but until then it is you that is wasting time trying to change a D to an L without written consent. Your conversations are predominately about Koo Lo wing chun unfortunate for you that is not the center of the wing chun universe ( that would be the Southern Shaolin Temple). You think my answer is incorrect prove it step outside your koo lo house and define Daai Nim Tao and if it is different than the definitions already given well you have an audience until then no need to explain my actions to you! Have a good day sir.

[Bob8]

Canglong wrote: "that is not the center of the wing chun universe ( that would be the Southern Shaolin Temple)."

The Southern Shaolin Temple is a myth...

[anerlich]

Your conversations are predominately about Koo Lo wing chun unfortunate for you that is not the center of the wing chun universe ( that would be the Southern Shaolin Temple).

General/Special Relativity and Quantum Mechanics indicate that the centre of the universe changes over time and according to the observer.

The Shaolin Temple as an MA hub is ancient history.

Jim's arguments are pretty convincing (and, unlike some, he can use paragraphs and avoid malapropisms).

Rene,

He's a pretty interesting guy, but these days he seems more involved with clubbells and stuff like that than what he was doing a few years back. IMO the production of his tapes has improved but the amount of info therein significantly reduced.

[Jim Roselando]

Tony and Anerlich,


Tony,


Anyone who reads this thread knows what its about! Stop wasting everyones time!


Anerlich,


Thanks for the input/support!


Greetz,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by canglong
unfortunate for you that is not the center of the wing chun universe ( that would be the Southern Shaolin Temple).


center of next WCK universe? :D

http://my.so-net.net.tw/jungwenliao/02.wmv

[reneritchie]

1. The guy asking about Dai Nim Tao is in Englad, 'hub' of Lee Shing WCK, so the likelihood is far and away that he is asking about the Dai Nim Tao as referred to by Lee Shing WCK, and thus Jim is correct (and knowledgeable) in his replies.

2. While it remains possible Southern Shaolin may have existed, and if it existed, was (a/the) source for WCK, and if it was, if that still holds any relevance today, there is absolutely no published evidence to support this theory. It is one of many opinions, more plausible than some, less than others, and has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

3. I'm sorry to hear about Sonnon's more recent stuff. I enjoyed what I saw. I've just received some Matt Thornton/Straight Blast stuff which I'll try to watch next. Have you seen any of that? (Southern Shaolin be darned, this is a real tangent!! :) )

[anerlich]

I've just received some Matt Thornton/Straight Blast stuff which I'll try to watch next.

No I haven't, and actually it's a bit of a sore point.

I ordered his functional JKD and Rodney King's Street Boxing in late 2003, and despite several phone calls and emails I still have not received them. Still trying.

By all accounts the material is great, but his customer service is woeful. For a guy who talks a lot about "delivery systems" he needs to work a lot harder on his own.

AS regards Scott Sonnon, IMO his earlier tape series like Grappler's Toolbox, Shockability, IOUF etc. were great, groundbreaking stuff. A lot of thought obviously went into them. Maximology, which "replaced" GTB, was just a video of a seminar he did somewhere, blown out to five tapes and sold like that. IMO it was disjointed, glossed over important points, and was not a patch on the series it was meant to replace. Maybe this was just an aberration, but ...

[Nick Forrer]

'I ordered Rodney King's Street Boxing in late 2003'

Yeah i've heard its a real riot:eek:




































Sorry in poor taste but couldn't resist

[anerlich]

Nick,

yeah, if you hadn't I might have.

THIS Rodney King is a white guy from RSA.

[reneritchie]

Sorry to hear that Andrew. I have seen several problems reported on his ordering system, and less than what I would consider professional responses (I used to work in customer relations, so I may have high standards :) ). This seems the norm for some, which is surprising. It's really one of the easiest, and best things any business can make sure is done right.

And TTT for white dudes from RSA!!! ;)

[canglong]

reneritchie
1.You too may have trouble distinguishing the difference between DNT and DLT that others don't.

2. That has everything to do with DNT.

Anerlich,
admit it you enjoy the fallacious antics of our resident malapropist as much as the next guy I've even see you playing with him every now and then.:D

[anerlich]

admit it you enjoy the fallacious antics of our resident malapropist

Ah, but there are several of them ...

And yes, be it wrong or not, I do enjoy watching someone come on high and mighty while at the same time revealing that their fingers move faster than their brain. Pomposity and ignorance are not a combo that should be encouraged.

[PQS]

Thanx for the replies guy's,
the reason I bought up Dai Nim Tao, it came up in conversation and nobody Knew what it was:confused:
The fact it was Lee Shing who introduced Wing Chun to the UK is just coincidence.
Happy Easter
Peter

[canglong]

That's good to know Peter, hope all the answers you got were helpful. Happy Easter to you and yours as well.