Form lovers and Wushu players

[Ray Pina]

Why do you kick your hand?

[red5angel]

could be plenty of reasons. I don't do any forms that require that yet but I've seen it a lot in taichi and some wushu stuff. My guess is possibly - conditioning, something to aim for, to make a loud smacking noise that get's people's attention. It might simulate slapping a high kick?

[MasterKiller]

You don't slap your foot; you kick your hand to improve aim and to gauge power. Why do you stomp your feet in xingyi?

BTW, I find the title of this thread a little condescending, especially when it comes from someone who studies an art that contains forms.

[norther practitioner]

I was told conditioning and aim as well. Also, when doing forms, it can help judge power.

[sakko]

power for sure... alot of the little shy kids in my class need some serious work on throwing their punches and kicks out there harder. As they grow up hopefully they learn to put some power into it. But I can see how the kicking (and in our forms sometimes punching) of hands would help them get into the groove.

[oasis]

i see it as helping you focus your kick. as a beginner, one is inclined to often kick with the toes pointing straight up, and even if your instructor tells you to point your toes out (in order to stretch your ankles and develop your achilles), you may still keep kicking with the toes up. however, by having to slap 'the top of your foot,' you have a gauge to judge if you're kicking properly. if you are not, you will be slapping your toes (and some classmates even almost injured themselves by slapping their toenails! :o ).

and as MK said, it also gives your some height to try to aim for. if you feel that you're bringing your 'slapping hand' too low (below shoulder level i guess), then you know you're not kicking high enough.

just my experiences so far :)

[Judge Pen]

I have a question: Is this primarily a CMA thing to do? Are any karate or TKD students taught to kick their hand on certian kicks?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I have a question: Is this primarily a CMA thing to do? Are any karate or TKD students taught to kick their hand on certian kicks? I've never seen it anywhere but in CMA, but that ain't saying much.

[red5angel]

why "form lovers"? I do forms but I am not a "form lover".

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
why "form lovers"? I do forms but I am not a "form lover". The insinuation is that people who do forms do not fight. Funny, xingyi has forms, huh?

[Ray Pina]

To reinforce, to drill into your mind and muscle memory, that your hands and feet must work together, support each other. You should not be over extending with your foot to a place your hand can not support.

Perfect exmaple, Mark Kerr's face pounding in Smashing Machine vs Igor. He got ****ed, round house kicked him without controlling him, Igor caught it and decked him square. From there it was a matter of finishing him off.

My master tells us of Saving Private Ryan. You can't just drop your troops without support.

Related subject: Know that first you use Artillary, Tomahak missles, then heavy machine guns/tanks, than machine guns and small arms then the bayonette .... you don't want to use the bayonette when the othet guy is using bombs and missles. Each weapon has its time, and it always needs to be supported.

................

Good Hsing-I does not stomp the foot. A good rule of thumb (even in karate punching): if you can see the power, it is contained. By stomping you put the power into the floor. Anyone who understand chicken stepping and cannon fist knows the power goes --------->, and the strike lands before the front foot.

For the most part, those that stomp the floor do it for the same reason many kick their hand (the sound and wow factor). There is a reason, though.

[Mediocrity]

As we progress along, Sifu has us stomp our feet during forms as a way to make sure we get rooted. I guess it makes sure we put our whole foot down as we do it.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I've never seen it anywhere but in CMA, but that ain't saying much.

:D I guess not, 'cause we do it. :p

The "stomp" is incidental in xing-yi. You are right, the force in chicken and cannon is horizontal, but the feet must root for the power to flow with a foundation behind it. Sometimes when people plant their rear foot (and I'm thinking of crushing hand in particular) their rear foot will make a sound and stomp, but the intent is cooridnating the hit with your body momentum moving forward while anchoring your foot so that there's no recoil back.

If someone just learning crushing had emphasises the stomp cause they want to sound like they have the proper mechanics and power generation, then its wrong.

Edit: Felipe Bido could clear this up for us pretty quickly.

[Ray Pina]

I kept the question simple as not to pollute responses.

Hsing-I does have "forms" but we train the idea of the form. Understand the principle of drill first, cannon first -- the animals, tiger head, swallow, hawk, then no matter the "form" you're in the principles are alive.

I find this makes fighting easier. Like chess. You can study all the openings in the world. But what if the guy does something else. Learn the principles, then you don;t have to study every game ever played.

I love forms! When the person does them with proper understanding. The only form I've bothered to remember is Chik Pu from Bak Mei. It's very short but a lot in there.

[red5angel]

Hsing-I does have "forms" but we train the idea of the form. Understand the principle of drill first, cannon first -- the animals, tiger head, swallow, hawk, then no matter the "form" you're in the principles are alive.

That should be the way anyone does them.

[Ralphie]

This one's for R5 and other Qi hippies:
In an energetic sense, crappy qi tends to drift down near the feat. The hands become charged when many forms are done properly. Slapping your feet with charged hands will dissipate the crappy qi that has gathered at and around your feet.

[Ray Pina]

We are not trees. Root is the most over used word in martial arts. There's no stomping the ground in fighting.

I drive off the back foot when fighting, all my punches are delivered as a kick, fueled from the back foot. But there is no stomping. It's very natural. Looks like boxing.

The stomping is falling in love with the form and adhering to it.

You aproach the guy in the ring or bar very naturally. When the distance is closed you ask for his hands or punch his shield and take his hands or charge in and jam his striking. At that moment you're moving naturally. You just drive off the back when it's needed.

When I practive chicken step I drive off the back leg and work on the hang time: is my momentum/focus going forward? How long can I hang their while doing it slow?

When I land... is the front foot now loaded? Is it technically now the back foot with a pushing angle even though it is the fron foot for a split second? Is my weight still forward? OK, without breaking stride bring the next leg up and through wedging and drving off the back leg, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect. Add cannon fist to it. Make sure you finishing the strike before foot lands.

This idea has some Ba Gua in it.

[red5angel]

In an energetic sense, crappy qi tends to drift down near the feat. The hands become charged when many forms are done properly. Slapping your feet with charged hands will dissipate the crappy qi that has gathered at and around your feet.

Is that why my feet and hands start to glow after a really good form?


There's no stomping the ground in fighting.

There's stomping on your opponent. I'd consider the stomping just a working of that action, going after the foot, the shin some other body part if he is down.

[MasterKiller]

My bad, I thought EF was trying to bait the traditionalists...

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I have a question: Is this primarily a CMA thing to do? Are any karate or TKD students taught to kick their hand on certian kicks?

It crops up in a couple of the taekwondo poomse I learned. Exclusively with out-to-in crescent kicks though. Usually straight into a horizontal elbow from there.

[Mediocrity]

We are not trees. Root is the most over used word in martial arts. There's no stomping the ground in fighting.

I drive off the back foot when fighting, all my punches are delivered as a kick, fueled from the back foot. But there is no stomping. It's very natural. Looks like boxing.

The stomping is falling in love with the form and adhering to it.

You aproach the guy in the ring or bar very naturally. When the distance is closed you ask for his hands or punch his shield and take his hands or charge in and jam his striking. At that moment you're moving naturally. You just drive off the back when it's needed.

When I practive chicken step I drive off the back leg and work on the hang time: is my momentum/focus going forward? How long can I hang their while doing it slow?

When I land... is the front foot now loaded? Is it technically now the back foot with a pushing angle even though it is the fron foot for a split second? Is my weight still forward? OK, without breaking stride bring the next leg up and through wedging and drving off the back leg, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect. Add cannon fist to it. Make sure you finishing the strike before foot lands.

This idea has some Ba Gua in it.

I fail to see your point.

The word root has many meanings other than the physical tendrils of a tree :roll: so don't pull the silly "we are not trees" arguement on me because it's dumb. You're referring to the word Root as a noun, in MA it's used a verb.

Since you don't seem to catch on - here's a definition:
v. root·ed, root·ing, roots
v. intr.
To grow roots or a root.
To become firmly established, settled, or entrenched.
To come into existence; originate

To become firmly established... hmm...

And notice, I said during forms... And why wouldn't I stomp the ground during a fight? Do you dictate what I can and can't do as I'm fighting an opponent? Are you some high-above entity that controls every fight as it happens, and you just so happen to ban stomping from all fights?

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Hsing-I does have "forms" but we train the idea of the form. Understand the principle of drill first, cannon first -- the animals, tiger head, swallow, hawk, then no matter the "form" you're in the principles are alive.


Exactly.- Xingyi forms are more 'Power Drills' and 'Tactical Principles' than 'a sequence of movements'.

And the stomping in Xingyi is not intentional (Unless you are a 'showman' and you wanna impress the chicks :D) . It's a consequence of fast stepping and sinking of the weight.

For example, look at the "White Crane Spreads Its Wings"...you spread your arms in a circle, and quickly bring both fists back to your Dantien area, with the whole weight of the body behind them. When the feet come together, it's natural that there's a stomping sound, because all the power is being concentrated in one point. But it doesn't mean you have to forcefully stomp the ground.

The sound of the feet in Xingyi (at least on the first level, or 'Ming Jing') is like "Treading on a poisonous bug". That may lead some people to think that Xingyi players stomp intentionally.

[Ray Pina]

Mediocrity, I just express my views like anyone else here.

I understand the "verb" use of "root" you are speaking of. I held horse stances like you wouldn't believe in Ishin-Ryue as a kid (probbaly led to by Oshgoodslaughter knees) and in Hung Gar as a young man.

If you want to mentaly dig your feet in and fight, please do so and the best of luck to you. My way is to secure my overall structure. If it takes pressure I move instead of being collapsed. A sitting duck is easy to hit.

Just know this: at first everyone got defensive about the "why kick your hand" question. I like to play devil's advocate sometimes.

Why? It can create discussions. And you also get to see how people train, and how they view it. Several people say they kicked their hand. Now, as a martial artist, which seems more valuable: A) for the mere sound of it. b) to aim (why not hang a small bag and keep your hands in guard to insure proper position) c) to make sure your kick is in range of your hand to support (can you kick some's chest while connected in chi sau?)

Agree or don't. But let's discuss. Why root? I'll listen. Than I have a good story on why not to root.

....
Out of curiosity: how often do you get your apponant directly below you to stomp? I'm usually cautious here, because it's actually not that hard to feel the knee with the hand and redirect the foot/calf with the elbow, then before you know it you're turned.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
of curiosity: how often do you get your apponant directly below you to stomp? I'm usually cautious here, because it's actually not that hard to feel the knee with the hand and redirect the foot/calf with the elbow, then before you know it you're turned. I stomp on people's feet all the time. It's my signature move.

[norther practitioner]

yeah, it is Master the toe breaker Killerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I do the bag thing too.... but when I practice my forms, the hands keep me focussed when kicking. I like doing the front kick, with toes pointed (kick to the groin) at waist to lower chest/ upper abdomen area whilst hitting my hand.. makes me realize my range really well.

As far as rooting, I have a different view than most I guess..

People do use the term rooted, I like to say balanced or stable...

just because I keep my back heel down during my yang style form, doesn't meen when I go to apply that stuff my heel stays down.... but practicing it like that, it helps me realize where my power is coming from.

[red5angel]

If you want to mentaly dig your feet in and fight, please do so and the best of luck to you. My way is to secure my overall structure. If it takes pressure I move instead of being collapsed. A sitting duck is easy to hit.

Root is about good structure, not just your connectedness to the ground. you can't have a good root otherwise, and you should be flexible, moving and still have root. I think it's an important concept, that's why it comes up a lot, but some people sort of generalize or aren't quite sure what it is. To me, root is balance, structure, full body connectedness and co-ordination. You can be on your back and still be rooted, just ask NP's girl ;)

[norther practitioner]

Yeah, you should see her push hands

[red5angel]

I have!!! right after I'm done rooting her usually!!! ;)

[Ray Pina]

"To me, root is balance, structure, full body connectedness and co-ordination. You can be on your back and still be rooted, just ask NP's girl "

Well said.

Northern, I too drill the heal down over and over. It reinforces driving off the foot instead of stepping empty.

Just that when I hear "root", I think squinted, focused, uncomfortable eyes.... guys in gis holding horse.

.....

My anti-root story:

When my master was a young man living in Hong Kong a well known karateka visitied and told the press he could break X pieces of slate.

They set him up on stage and he let go and only like 1/4 X pieces broke.

The media let him have it and the Chinese martial artists didn't waste any time poking fun at the Japanese karate guy. My master believed he could do it though, why would he fly all the way over and agree to be infront of the media. Some said maybe he was tired from flying, food, ect.

The next day they set up X slates at a playground basketball court. X slates broke just like that!

Turns out the stage was also a dance floor. The little absorption of the floor took off a lot of the power.

[Fu-Pow]

To answer the original question:

There are two reasons for kicking the hand that I know of.

One is reason is that the arms come out anyways for balance. In order to involve the whole body every limb must be doing something and balancing could be that something.

Second reason is that it is a distraction. In the case of front kick the hand that slaps is coming down from the top. The opponent believes he is being attacked from the hand but the foot attack is the real attack, usually to the groin.

The other reasons are valid as well ie providing a target to hit. :p

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Second reason is that it is a distraction. In the case of front kick the hand that slaps is coming down from the top. The opponent believes he is being attacked from the hand but the foot attack is the real attack, usually to the groin.


We have hit-kicks where you punch and kick at the same time for this reason, but its different than when you actually kick your hand.

[norther practitioner]

I used the backstroke to front kick against someone... it wasn't straight up like I practice it, but same concept.

[red5angel]

I used the backstroke to front kick against someone


WTF?!

[kungfu cowboy]

I get the impression that stomping can be used as a strike, and definitely even better, as a source of transformed power for striking. If you hit something massive enough, it hits you instantaneously right back, which you can channel into a strike. Hi-YAA!!

[Mediocrity]

We do stomps more for power than for actual rooting. It helps us get rooted fast before we strike because if we're in hill climb, and our back heel is raised - we're not going to have power. Stepping lightly doesn't lend itself to good rooting if you're new (like me) and I try to do a little heavier stepping for rooting if not for power - for balance.

That's why I do it, and it works for me, so thats what im sticking to.

[Banjos_dad]

I was going to just observe and not be an empty bucket, sloshing loudly.
But we all follow our nature so here goes. we do a line drill where we do an outside to inside crescent & kick the spear hand, and then set the kicking foot down & unwind into a back spinning kick (another crescent, or back hook etc).
If you do the crescent kick with back leg from bow stance and have that opposite palm in front too you're totally coiled for that backward spinning move. So maybe kicking the hand illustrates a principle. Maybe there's other applications that have not been revealed to me yet.
I was experimenting with it and you can unwind with a spinning backfist too but it's not as efficient feeling, as far as using that uncoiling power. (And before someone points it out yeah, closest weapon to closest target is most "efficient", blah blah blah.)
Moves represent concepts sometimes in kung fu forms. Like striking a backfist into your open palm in horse stance can symbolize, breaking the bones in your enemy's instep.
I can't reveal more or the guardians of kung fu will remove my eyebrows :mad: :mad: :eek: :mad: :mad:

[Scythefall]

I only got through about the first two pages of the thread and didn't see anyone mention specifics about the hand kicking.

In Wu Tai Chi, there's some devastating moves that basically simulate grabbing your opponent by the side of the head and then doing an inside crescent kick with the other leg. I always chuckle when doing that form, because it looks like you're grabbing a kid by the head and crushing his head like a mellon.

In most Northern Shaolin forms you're probably simulating a grab to the opponents crown in most of the hand kicking. For instance, in Shao-Hong Chuan, you thrust your fingers into the opponents neck, and it is immediately followed by an outside crescent kick that ends up hitting your hand. Appears to be a spear to the neck, followed by you grabbing the guy by the side of the head and meeting the other side of his head with a crescent kick. In Tun Da, you're coming up from a crouch, blocking attacks and chasing the opponent, on the third block the right hand is actually outward, like it's grabbing and you jump front kick. I know in Mantis forms almost all moves that have you striking your own hands are simulations of grabs and strikes. It's pretty obvious when you're learning the style.

Stomping...well, that all depends on what you're doing. In some forms a stomp is used in hold-breaking simulations or just sudden downward motions and the explosiveness of the move ends up being a stomp. Ask your sifu when you're learning "Why am I stomping?" Never be afraid to question what it is you are doing.

In other forms it is a form of chi kung--jolting the body. This is especially important after a while. Shake away frustration and negativity...focus. Like a bell bringing you fully into the moment.
At the moment of that stomp, all the anger, the confusion, the frustration, the emotions can fade away. All your power is available to you.

[SifuAbel]

The hand drives the head into the kick.

Imagine if you will, grabing the right hand with your left, palming the guy in the face with your right and leading his head into a left inside to the back of his head.

Or a right flank evasion with the right foot forward and spearing out over the arm for contact on the face leading to an outside with the left foot.

In a kicking drill its more to drive the kick outward to the full circle. The apllications are the same.

[Buby]

Otay! Kicking the hand... I've been taught that it can be a flick to the eyes or when pak sauing a punch and then you kick.

Stomping can help people with the co-ordination of luk ging (6 powers) or 6 joints working as one. Not to mention that in yau kung mun and pak mei we train stomping ging. Think of a basket ball when slamed against the ground, its energy rebounds right back up. Well thats what happens with stomping ging. YKM an PM are well known for their rebound energy, not only in the legs, but also in the hands. Plus the stomping can also be a stomp to the opponents foot, shin and what not.

Evo, so you like jikbo! It is a very cool form. Which version did you learn? May I ask who taught you? HAve you ever trained it across a park? Also, if you don't mind, what lessons did you learn from this form? You can answer by email if you wish. YauKungTiger@hotmail.com

The forms we train are applied to our fighting. The combos if broken down and understood properly are wicked. They are not trained for stamina and good health, its just a by product.


Take care,
Buby

[norther practitioner]

Originally posted by red5angel



WTF?!

Oh, there is a kicking drill, start with the right foot and right hand forward... swing your front arm up (back arm down) kinda like doing the backstroke while taking a full step forward with the left, when your left hand gets to the top of your swing, stop it, your right hand hits the left, then you kick the right leg up to your right hand...

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by norther practitioner


Oh, there is a kicking drill, start with the right foot and right hand forward... swing your front arm up (back arm down) kinda like doing the backstroke while taking a full step forward with the left, when your left hand gets to the top of your swing, stop it, your right hand hits the left, then you kick the right leg up to your right hand... Ahhh....I was wondering WTF you were talking about, too. :p

[Ray Pina]

Buby, I learned it from my old Hung Gar sifu and a guy that used to come around my the old school I attended. I don't really know where they got it and at the time I was just showed the moves with the obvious applications.

It's now that I'm studying Hsing-I that it's real flavor has been opened up to me: the driving off the back leg, the two handed/forearm shielding.

I love the left hand going out to draw the attack with the right following up to get to the outside gate: I find it not unlike Ba Gua's first palm change.

In my understand it's using the elbow alot to turn the guy out while maintaining forward drive. I use this alot against a right lead. When you pulled off, you're in great position. If not, you at least jammed the one hand and coming in.

I love that form. Maybe we could get together sometime, I can treat you for lunch and you can show me some more.

[Ray Pina]

Buby, I learned it from my old Hung Gar sifu and a guy that used to come around my the old school I attended. I don't really know where they got it and at the time I was just showed the moves with the obvious applications.

It's now that I'm studying Hsing-I that it's real flavor has been opened up to me: the driving off the back leg, the two handed/forearm shielding.

I love the left hand going out to draw the attack with the right following up to get to the outside gate: I find it not unlike Ba Gua's first palm change.

In my understand it's using the elbow alot to turn the guy out while maintaining forward drive. I use this alot against a right lead. When you pulled off, you're in great position. If not, you at least jammed the one hand and coming in.

I love that form. Maybe we could get together sometime, I can treat you for lunch and you can show me some more.

[Buby]

Evo,

whats good?

Yeah, jik bo is sweet. There are a few versions of jikbo, but the main ingredient is found in all. The only thing that changes might be the turn, or the opening.

I love the sut choy! When pulled off properly its wicked. We can hook up for sure, split the bill, and talk/demo mad kung fu. Some of the things you describe in your training aren't foreign to me, so i would really like to chat over some grub. Give me a holla at yaukungtiger@hotmail.com

Good luck with your fight!

Be easy bro,
Buby