History of Tai Ji Quan

[SPJ]

Hi;

Recently I was asked about the history of Tai Ji Quan over a newsgroup. My reply follows:

Yin Yang Tai Ji theory may be dating back over 3000 years ago in China. It may go back 4000 years. There is no written record beyond that.

Zhang San Fong is the forefather of Wu Dang. He proposed the internal system vs external. Nei Jia vs Wai Jia.

Chen's Family studied Wushu dating back 1100 years ago.

Recently about 400 years ago. Chen Wang Tin summaried or invented all the good ideas about Wushu in Ming Dynasty and "created" Tai Ji Quan.

Most of moves in Tai Ji Quan may be "seen" in Sung's first emporor (Tai Tzu Chan Quan). Sung Tai Tzu summaried all the Wushu, basically long boxing at that time.

Tai Ji Quan evolved from Long Boxing.

Any input from anybody?

[Walter Joyce]

Yeah, look for Stanley Henning's work.

He debunks most of the myths you just posted.

[RAF]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=13834


http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=13835


http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=13836

BTDT

[SPJ]

Well said.

Zhang San Fong was indeed a mystical figure as well as Bodidharma.

The time periods of Zhang varied according to legends.

The only written record of Tai Ji Quan started with Chen Wang Tin around 1670's. He espoused to use Zhang to follow the opponent in Tai Ji Push Hands and most of the tactics and stretagy of Tai Ji Quan.

In the mid 1700's, Wang Zhong Yuet wrote the theory of Tai Ji Quan.

In the mid 1800's, Wu Yu Xian wrote Xin Fa for Tai Ji Quan.

These are all considered classics.

Internal vs external may be conviently used to classify Wushu.

However, most of Wushu contain both.

[backbreaker]

The one thing I have trouble with , is the idea that Taiji is purely military combat methods. I have a hard time with the idea that Daoist and buddhist cultivation methods are unrelated to Taijiquan, they are too similar to me. And far back in time; there are styles that have no direct connection but are obviously related far back enough. I think they are obviously related, and that many of these spiritual systems as far as I know, were taught in secret and not even written down, plus the real records of the real monastaries were destroyed weren't they? Kind of like when the spanish destroyed alot of south american stuff. I can't help but think, while Taiji is a complete system in it self, it is part of a larger spiritual system also. Also, how is a martial art that takes years and years to master effective for war that you didn't know would happen 10 years ago, there's always war in the past?

[backbreaker]

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/chenboxingmanuals.html


WHat I got from reading this article is that some guy named Qi Jiguang contributed to taiji development, and that there is similarities in the Shaolin postures in the pictures and the Chen postures. I don't know what that means precisely, chen taiji could be related considering the location, and aren't there many stories of Generals hiding , maybe in monasteries, or Daoist qigong masters? WHat does that mean, I'm not totally sure

[backbreaker]

My Chen Taiji teacher who is actually a high level practitioner of CHen style, said Taijiquan is a perfect integration of Qigong styles and martial arts. Seems simple enough an explanation.

[JAZA]

internal vs external is a pretty new categorization.

[backbreaker]

I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember reading that Sun Lu Tang had something to do with calling systems " neijia" or " internal". I'm not sure , someone else might know about that

[SPJ]

Hi;

It was a good link.

I have practiced Tai Tzu Chan Quan with a teacher. I also studied Chen's Tai Ji with several teachers. Because I had tough time to study it. I was so used to throw fast punches and kicks. I was so bored to death with the slow movements. My steps were not right. The position of the waist, the hand and the elbow were wrong. The timing was not right. On and on. I had to study with 4 teachers to get everything right.

Some of the movements of both TZCQ and CTJ do look alike. That was why I had a tough time to study Chen's Taiji. once I was so well versed in Tai Tzu Chan Quan.

The Spiral Jin (Zhang Shi Jin) is emphasized in all Tai Ji moves. You use a circular small force to contact the opponent's linear force. Your direction of Jin is constantly changing in a circle. The moment you contact the opponent's forearm, your Jin is in the same direction of the opponent's Jin. You merge into it. Since you still continue in a circle, you introduce a outward, upward, downward and inward Jin. and you are in control of the opponent's forearm. You neutralize his Jin with a small circular Jin. On and On

In short, true Qigong is everything. But understanding and mastering Zhang Shi Jin make Tai Ji Tai Ji and not anything else.

It is a very difficut subject to explain. It took me 15 years to figure out a little.

[backbreaker]

I have also found becoming skilled in IMA to be quite a frustrating task, high level skills will take so much work you can be discouraged easily and I have a long way to go, but I guess becoming great in anything is a huge task to put on your self

[backbreaker]

Actually, I think this Hennig guy is out to lunch, and been reading too much his-story. The guy himself says that all the history is made up by people with agendas so does that not make history irrelevant if it is lies? IMO you have to go by the records of the practitioners themselves, not his-story. I get from the article that Zhang San Feng is quite irrelevant.

On Jarek's martial arts message board, someone said the late Jou Tsing Hwa beleived in the mythical Zhang San Feng, but not the historical one.

So I think the practitioners records are what is relevant. But I think to say that Taiji is military but not spiritual is quite ridiculous.
Is there any actual proof that Taiji is from Qi Jiguang other than some moves are the same? Because that seems to be the case in Shaolin, long boxing, this supposed Tai Tzu, even othe IMAs. Beyond that it is easy for someone who doesn't understand the internal to think Taiji is just the external forms, so a style which is the most externally the same could be said to be the origin by his-storians, but the internal could be different. Forget all history and find out about the style itself.

[SPJ]

Hi;

It is ok that he wrote the paper from a political point of view. That is his understanding (Zen/Chan) or his theory.

Does he study any Wushu at all?

Legends are like real, real or false, false. (Zhen Zhen Jia Jia; Jia Jia Zhen Zhen) They are empty. Everything is empty. (Yi Che Si Kong) Pardon my Buddhist terms.

At least we know some basic facts. Indeed history is always written to serve those in power at the time.

1) Zhang San Fong is the forefather of Wu Dang. Wu Dang Shan is a place that Daoists gather and study including Wushu. They believe in Shuan Wu Zhen Shen.

2) Chen's family studied Wushu since Chen Pu. Hey! I am not Chen's. I have no idea when his family first started. Anyway, some of the family fighting sets evolved into modern day Tai Ji Quan since Chen Wang Ting.

3) If you study Wushu, you study both Nei Jia and Wai Jai. (Nei Wai Jian Show)

You may always write the history to serve your need, too. Therefore history is only as valid as those who wrote it.

So the truth is in (follows) your will or intention. (Zhen Jia Jin Zai Yi Nien Zi Zhong)

Pardon my Buddhist term again.

So have peace!

[SPJ]

There are many differences between study of Nei vs Wai. I may write books over books about it. No single person or family may take all the credits. It is a concept evolved and nurtured thruout Chinese history.

Three essential ideas:

1) Jin is more powerful than Li. That is why it does not matter you start with external. You may end up working on internal to increase your external. Nei Gong will increase your Wai Li.

If you throw a straigh punch, your fist travels from A to B. You may generate the force starting from the waist and what not. The rest of your body simply delivers the force.

In contrast, you imagine there are 10 people between A and B. Each is told to push when pushed. The force is amplied to the 10th. Assuming each pushes with the same amount of force, you now have 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 more force. I am simplifying things. You get the idea.

In order to do that, you have to practice your move slowly or as slow as you can be. This way you train your body to put more stops and go's before A and B. Or You add more people to push between A and B.

2) Nei Jia think small or minute in terms of time, space and force.
Minute difference means thousands miles of difference. (Zha Zi Hou Li Shi Zi Chien Li)

You practice your move as slow as you can be. Your body is tuned to do small or minute moves in increment timing. You increase your Nei Li as mentioned in 1). You are also trained to move a little and have a full specturm of the whole movement from A to B. You add a lot of stops for the bus (Li) to travel from A to B.

So that you may sense, detect and use the minute change in space, time and force.

3) When fight, the opponent's straight punch seems slow. You only to do minute things (space, time and force) to overcome his seeming large force and actually small Nei Li when he travels fast from A to B.

Enough for now. Wait for my books.

[RAF]

Historians should stay out of martial arts and martial artists should stay out of history. Nothing better than living out life through a myth, yeah! What do they know about marital arts?

Here is the final examination in the course of life and eventual death.

Would you choose:

A. Martial Arts Prowess

To be the ultimate undefeated warrior whom no one could ever take. With a mere poke or touch you would dim the lights of any opponent. 5' or 7' makes no difference, you ARE the ultimate killing machine. Skilled to no end, there is no fear but alas no sex for champ. You celebrate the celibate. Keep your hands clean and focus on the big spear not the little one!

or

B. Marital Arts Prowess

A late Qing-dynasty painting illustrating sexual techniques. The legendary patron of sexual practices was Ancestor Peng, who was said to have lived for 700 years. A self-cultivation regime attributed to him and promoted in the 2nd century CE recommends adapting one's hygienic routines, diet, exercises, breathing, and "entering the chamber" (euphemism for sexual relations) to the dynamic of passing seasons. For the most part, sexual cultivation was aimed at strengthening the male partner through the practice of absorbing female jing and through anal constriction. Peng's longevity also made him the patron of other health-care regimens such as daoyin. (The picture depicts an "outrageous" act of sex, the young beauty mounted on him, face to face sitting on the edge of the bed).

Only one answer.

To lie within in the extremes is to be mediocre. You have shoot for one of the extremes. Just do it!
________________________________________________
Chang Sang Feng can't hold a candle to this guys marital arts, I know which one I would pick.

Yeah, what the hell does that Henning know? Bury those intellectuals head down into the ground.

A bookworm and nothing more. Zhu Gong, qi gan!

Zhuge Liang rules!

Yippeee!

[SPJ]

I have great respect and admiration for historians. They are the curators of everything. Our civilization may not advance without their documentations. Oftentimes, they have to risk their lives for writing about the truths. They have the greatest responsibility of all, even though a lot of times they do not know every trade or profession well.

I am not a historian basher.

I think that the bottomline is that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

I think therefore I am. (Wer Si Gu Wer Zai)

I merely practiced Long Boxing and Tai Ji Quan for over 30 years. What do I know about any history beyond my lifetime before or after.

I think perhaps the historians would know more than I do. I am not even something they bother to document.

I have no quarrels with historians. I am merely an old men and relishing some of the good old times when I was young.

Some people enjoys good wine, some good food, and room matters.

I enjoyed studying and practicing Wushu. As simple as that. I am willing to listen to any tales from historians.

[RAF]

Appreciated but lets throw in Guandi, too:

GUANDI
Thousands of temples, many under imperial sponsorship, were dedicated to Guandi, one of the most popular of all Chinese gods. Guandi originated as Guan Yu, a historical folk hero who was captured and executed in 219 CE. Known for his ferocity, courage, and unswerving loyalty to his bloodbrothers and to the Shu Han dynasty, one of the 3 successor states to the Han in the Three Kingdoms era (220-263 ce). His story is told in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, a famous novel of the Ming dynasty.

Later dynasties deified Guan Yu and promoted him through the ranks of the celestial bureaucracy---by the Ming, he possessed the title of "Faithful and Loyal Great Deity, Supporter of Heaven and Protector of the Realm." Guandi is the god of war, but also a god of merchants, lterature, and bean curd sellers (one of Guan Yu's early professions), among many others. His temple housed the local executioner's sword, for it was though that no felon's ghost would be brave enough to enter the fierce and just Guandi's residence.
p. 101

China: Empire and Civilization
Edward L. Shaughnessy, General Editor
Oxford University Press
2000_______________________________________

There a lot of myths we can live our martial arts through---its a lot more fun than having to sort through the annal (anals) of academic history.

How about a new martial arts book, Myths We Can Live Through: The Real Essence of Chinese Martial Arts

Now where is that beer. I gotta get training in that new phase of marital arts.

[SPJ]

RAF: Good posts!

I see what you are saying. And sort of agreed!

Too much room matters will also deplete your ancestral Jing from kidney and if you lose it fast, you may need some Chinese herbs to help.

Too much of good a thing somtimes may not be all good. Heard it somewhere? I forgot.

[SPJ]

Historian VS Chinese mythology and religions

- I listened to historians. They said what they said based on physical evidences or documents.

- I enjoyed myths. The legends subscribed certain attributes to a person, so that we have role models. East and West are the same. Hercules for great strengths. Venus for beauty.

Guan Kung: stands for bravery, god of warrior and business. Business is war-like in old China.

Guan Yin Buddha: grace, mercy, foregiveness, kindness, protection on and on.

Zhang San Fong: a Daoist and created Tai Ji Quan theory, and yet studied Shaolin Quan.

- I have a religion.

So I am being Chinese and being human.

So the historians may go ahead fight with mythology and the God.

Leave me out of the "fights". Historians may dismiss myths and existence of God as nonsensical due to lack of evidences.