The 18 Styles.

[MantisCool]

Here is an old print I found about the 18 styles found in Praying Mantis. Can someone please translate the text?

Thanks.

[mantis108]

Hi MantisCool,

The attached page is almost identical to Ilya Profatilov's version in his article. It is safe to say that this would be the praying mantis version of the 18 styles (aka Discourse of Short Strike). There are quite a few versions from various styles about the 18 styles. Unfortunately there seems to be some typos and one style is missing if you count them closely. Nevertheless, the possible typos in this version to me are quite interesting and in my mind there are some implications (could be quite serious) to the official mantis 18 style version authenticity wise.

A brief example:

Line No. 5 & 6 Ilya's version is roughly

Ma Ji's Close-Range Strikes Boxing is the most remarkable.

Sun Heng's Monkey Boxing is also impressive

here

Ma Ji's Close-Range Strikes Boxing is the most venomous (or vicious).

Sun Heng's Monkey Boxing is also terrific (or glorious)

In Ilya's version they are paired. This is indicated by the last words of the lines. This pattern also exsited in the first 4 lines.

But in the attachment, this 2 lines start to break that pattern. BTW, I kind of like the attached version but literal value wise Ilya's version or the old Quanpu version definitely rates higher IMHO. So something or some editing took place. Who did it and why? I think the questions are many but answers are few. :(

Mantis108

PS the attachment has a "ficition" narrative feel to it.

[MantisCool]

The attachment is printed many years ago in the kungfu periodicals during the time of WHF. It is a complete story about mantis kungfu and came in several instalments. At least more than 10 and forms about 40 over A4 pages.

I think the materials came from WHF! So, I dont think it is fictitious and the rating shouldnt be low as well.

Anybody seen this articles before?

Yeah, I counted it too and like you said 1 is missing. Which is missing?

[mantis108]

Thank you for sharing the background info. I really appreciate that. Martial arts literature at that time meant a lot of good. Often we come across nice pieces like this one that are part story telling and part facts. I am not doubting the info containing in the article. I am just cautioning that we might have to take the story with a grain of salt.

As far as I am aware, this information is consistant with Shaolin Authentics by Hsing Hsiao Dao Ren and Jiang Hualong-Song Side lineage's various Quanpu.

The missing one is Jin Xiang's "blocking hands and following through fist" technique. (as seen in Ilya's article) I think it is the uppercut technique. Tongquan or Tong Tian Quan (through towards the sky punch) is the Chinese term for it.

There is a Mainland article that basically casted a lot of doubts about the 18 families story. Basically, it points to three Ming dynasty articles that might have been the sources which HHRD during Qing dynasty could have drawn from. one of the interest feature in the attachment is the Yan Qing's zhanna Diefa. The Na character in particular is an old form of a term which is commonly found in old spear manuals. That Na is a spear technique that can be found in General Chi's book. So there are some questions raised already.

I also believe that the 18 families of hand to hand combat is a parallel of 18 weapons for the battle field. IMHO It is a move to legitimize certain styles (mantis being one of them) and techniques. It also allude to the fact that there was never a "Shaolin" style. The so-called Shaolin style is but Discipline Cross Training in principle. With the 18 families article, HHDR gave shape to "Shaolin" style which he named 18 Luohan Duanda. So personally, I don't think it is a good idea to be too caught up with the 18 families thing. It is just my personal opinion though it does not represent another view but mine very own. Having said all that, I think it is prudent to keep investigating the Shaolin Authentics until all possible avenue are exhausted. I wouldn't draw any conclusion until then.

Thank you for sharing. Please keep them coming.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[cha kuen]

The 18 styles are also described in Paul Eng's new book. www.earthworks.com/eng

[MantisCool]

I have counted the pages and the instalments and it comes to 60 pages and 19 instalments. If the periodical is weekly than it took about almost 4 months to circulate in the market.

I am not trying to legitimise the 18 styles..story as a facts. I am just querious why other writings are rated higher than this? How old is the other writings and its authenticity? Isnt WHF an acknowledged authority on the mantis's history being a writer of so many books on mantis and kungfu?. I am sure he had done the most extensive research on the mantis during his time.

Even if the Na character of Yan Qing's zhanna Diefa is wrong it could be spelling error and spelling and typing errors are common in any writing.

I am not caught up with the 18 families matter. I just wanted to share what I have be it fictions or facts as long as I am not the one creating it!

Thanks for the missing technique.

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantis Cool,
It is extremely unlikely that this version is from WHF as their are several differences.
WHF mentions the old manuals Shaolin Zhen Chuan in his writings.
I don't know what happened to them.
I suppose someone is holding them and some copies.

The material in his shaolin zhen chuan he published to a certain extant. It is very similar to hand written materials of other schools in other branches of Mantis and to a certain extant weapons manuscripts of other schools.

As far as the 18 familes you have here I wouldn't rate other simialr versions "higher" than this one at this point as it is hard to tell which is closest to the original.
In fact, unless a new discovery is made by tomb diggers we will never know.

WHF is a definite acknowledged authority and performed a great service in his teaching and published works.
Some of the material is specific to his branch only while a nice portion, such as his version of 18 families apllies to most if not all branches.
I say this because all branches have a version of 18 families which are extremely similar.
This suggests that this is part of the original material of mantis manuscripts.

Would you be kind enough to show more of the material?

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by mantis108
I also believe that the 18 families of hand to hand combat is a parallel of 18 weapons for the battle field.

Very interesting, do you have these transcibed in any fashion? I would love to see these!
Best wishes,
~BTL

[mantis108]

Hi MantisCool,

My apologies to you, MantisCool, as I might have come across as being critical. I can assure you that this is never my intention. In fact I am very glad that you would share such wonderful information. Please be reassure that your sharing is always and will always be appreciated. I believe all mantis stylists are brothers. Lineague or style is of little concern to me.


I have counted the pages and the instalments and it comes to 60 pages and 19 instalments. If the periodical is weekly than it took about almost 4 months to circulate in the market.

Thank you for the background information. I am not doubting the article's exsitance.


I am not trying to legitimise the 18 styles..story as a facts. I am just querious why other writings are rated higher than this? How old is the other writings and its authenticity? Isnt WHF an acknowledged authority on the mantis's history being a writer of so many books on mantis and kungfu?. I am sure he had done the most extensive research on the mantis during his time.

I am sorry that you get the impression that I meant you. I definitely don't think that it would be you. All I am saying is that this might have been Hsing Hsiao Dao Ren's (1700s CE) or even his teacher(s) intention althought there is a possibility that someone during the late Qing and early Republic China could have something to do with it.

We are talking material that was around mid 1700s. The authenticity of HHDR's material is a tough call. In fact, the identity of this person is more or less a mystery. But quite a few Mantis lineage in Shandong, China (besides other styles) used his material in their Quanpu. Very few people cast doubt on the material. I think I am among those few that would approach HHDR's material with extra caution. I doesn't mean that I am right. In fact, I could be dead wrong. But for the sake of studying material, I think we need to be prudent.

<<<Even if the Na character of Yan Qing's zhanna Diefa is wrong it could be spelling error and spelling and typing errors are common in any writing.>>>

I am not saying that one character is more correct or anything to that effect. I am saying that sometimes certain character reflects certain property. It's like clues to mysteries. All I am saying is that this could be a good lead for further investigation but it can also be a wild goose chase. Again, if we want to seriously study material, all leads have to be followed. Any little or subtle difference has to be followed upon.

<<<I am not caught up with the 18 families matter. I just wanted to share what I have be it fictions or facts as long as I am not the one creating it!>>>

Great, thank you for sharing. I for one really appreciate your generocity. I hope you will keep it coming. :)

<<<Thanks for the missing technique.>>>

You are most welcome. I will repost some of the information regarding the 18 style for your comparsion.

I have great respects for the 7 Stars line and I have great respects for WHF as he had contribute greatly to the mantis community.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Here's a different version:

A Poem Concerning the 18 Styles that Make Up Praying Mantis

Version Four

Provided by personal contact of Late Sifu Eric Ishii’s (Roland Summer)
Note – Not in order with the other listings (i.e. Version 1-3)

Additional Remarks by Robert Hui

Oct 31, 2001



1: Cheng Kuen of Tai Jo (Long Fist) Tai Jo was the first Emperor of the Sung Dynasty. The Style contains big motions, exaggerating, and is very common in Taiwan

RE: Tai Jo (Tai Tzu Men) Changquan was popular from Shantung province as far as Henan province during Wong Long’s time. Henan Shaolin Temple was said to offer it in their curriculum at the time. In TCPM, Wong Long first learn this style from Sifu Wong Gar Chung, who also taught him the famous 12 Characters Principle, which later became the outstanding principle among all Northern Praying Mantis styles. ( New Martial Hero Magazine). At least 2 TCPM lineage holders - Grandmaster Hau Chi Yuen and Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai did trained in Tai Tzu Men.

2: Tong Bei Kuen of Hong Tong (Shadow Fist/ AKA Ape Style)

RE: This was IMHO Pigua style that was popular arround the north banks of Yellow River. It has developed into at least 4 major banches. Baiyuan Tong Bei is the more famous of them.
3: Lam Sao Kuen of Cheng Yum. (Closing/ Locking or Barrier Hands)

RE: This doesn't seem to match other versions.

4: Duen Kuen of Wong Yuen (Short Fist)

RE: I think this is actually Wan Yuan's Short fist which could be the 72 road/collums fist of Wan family mentioned in General Chi's book.

5: Ngo Mee Kuen of Ma Jiak (Ngo Mo Fist)
The method of Ngo Mee Shan (Monastery) – is moving like a cat, short distance striking, and is still found in the P.R. of China

RE: There is not much detail about Ma Jiak/Ma Ji's Duanda. So the claim that Ma Jiak's Duan Da is actually Ngo Mee Shan's fighting methods is interesting. Yet there is no substantial proof.

6: Pak Yuen Kuen of Sheung Hong (White Ape Fist)
From this method originated the main part of the footwork and the very famous 7 Star Stepping

RE: Pak Yuen Tong Bei seems to have different branches as well. This could be the reason that Ape Fist is mentioned twice. There is also the possibility that Tong Bei’s forms Dai Tong Bei (became Dai Fan Che?), Sui Tong Bei (became Sui Fan Che?), and Qixing (7 Stars) inspired some of the forms of 7 Stars PM. It is quite interesting that 7 Stars (the style) is said to be perhaps name after the form 7 Stars of Tong Bei. Indeed, lots of the long arm swinging motions can be found in both styles. But not commonly found in other PM styles. It is also of note that there is a form call 7 Stars (Qixing) in 7 Stars PM.

When I made the above comment I didn't have much to work with at the time. Now I believe that I made a rash comment. Tong Bei and Monkey are definitely 2 different styles. The monkey fist is actually mention in General Chi's book as well. The monkey fist mentioned here is possibly Thai boxing based on.

7: Gau San Kuen of Wong Chiem (Fist that lies on top or fist that rest on top of something)

RE: still haven't figure this one out

8: Mui Fah Kuen of Mien Sai (Plum Flower Fist)
(Extraordinary dynamic style, consisting of 5 handsets, likes the 5 leaves {Petals} of the Plum Flower.) Once very important and famous for affectivity, therefore it was integrated into many styles like Hung Gar, Choy Lee Fut, etc…

RE: There is a series of Mui Fah forms in the 7 Stars. Mantis somehow branched out into 7 Stars and Mui Fah. TCPM has closer ties to the Mui Fah branch.

When I made this comment, I don't think I have the information that I have now. So this is an error in my comment. Right now I am not sure I can even support this item.

9: Koy Sao Tong Kuen of Gam Sheung (Striking Shadow Fist)

RE: This is the upper cut technique.

10: Ban Kuen of Wai Dak (Death Fist)

RE: I think this one is actually Shuai Lue Yingbeng, which in certain lineages, translates into a way of Fajing that uses the whole body.

11: Pak Ying Jow Kuen of Lau Hing (Northern Eagle Claw Fist/ Style)
Wang Lang was a very close friend of Sifu Lau Hing. After Lau Hing’s death, Wang Lang developed the Set Bung Bo Kuen in memory of him. This set is more than 50% Eagle Claw techniques and is esteemed as a most important set and is taught first (historically)

RE: Eagle Claw is still popular in Shantung. Geographically and interest wise, it is quite possible that they made friends.

at this point, I am having more difficulties to reconcile this version with the other versions. Althought this version is quite unique

12: Yin Chi Kuen, of Tam Fong (Swallow Fist)

RE: I think this might have something to do with Gunlou Guaner, which could be Pai An aka Yingching Po Shou.

13: Fan Chi (Fahn Chea) Kuen of Ying Ching (Yin Cheng)
Ying Ching was a famous top fighter of his time, especially feared for his unique (Broad) sword art. (RE: Ying Ching Dann Do)

RE: Ying Ching might once be real fighter of high caliber but he is more known in the sense of a folklore hero. In other words, like many legendary Kung Fu masters there is no substantial proof of his existence other than the Kung Fu Style that is named after him. He was known to have great throwing and grappling skill.

14: Tam Toi Kuen of Lam Chung (Jumping Leg Fist/ Style)
Breathing techniques and design makes it look like Karate, in some ways. Straight lined, high strength method.

RE: In many Mantis schools/ branches kicking exercises modeled after the Tam Toi training, which builds dynamic balance, functional leg strength, and stamina.

15: Lin Kuen of Lam Kam (Harmony Fist)

RE: This would have something to do with Qishi Lianquan (7 postures of continous fist).

16: Choy Kuen of Choy Luen (Hammer Fist). Exclusively within the set CHOP CHOI Kuen. Classically a Shaolin set with elementary exercises for Foot techniques for beginning level students.

RE: I am not sure about this. But I believe this would be Woli Paochui instead. This would meant that is rather a one inch punch type of techique.

17: Lo Han Kuen of Yueng Kwong (Buddha Fist) Base of almost all of Shaolin Styles, which make them all similar.

Re: Lohanquan (Arhat Boxing) is considered the seed form of Shaolin. Even southern style such as Hung Gar has elements of it in its form (i.e. last section of Fu Hok Sern Ying Kuen)

Again information back then was pretty limited. So I believe I make rash comments.

18: Tong Long Kuen of Wong Long (Wang Lang) {Praying Mantis}
Tong Long Kuen is put together from only the most effective techniques of these above-mentioned methods/styles – to be highly effective itself. Tong Long Kuen, White Ape Style and Eagle Claw Style (in this order) are the three main posts (systems) that carry the Tong Long Style. Consisting of an individual choice out of a gigantic reservoir of Gung Fu techniques it still is identifiable in wide fields. The Eagle Claw Style of the Lau Family, which developed in the same province of China (Shantung) and was developed though a long period of time, with similar versatile and colorful method of fighting is to be highly revered as well.

RE: Taiji Praying Mantis or Tai Chi Praying Mantis (TCPM), IMHO, has 3 pillars that are slightly different from the 7 Stars Praying Mantis. The 3 pillars in Taiji Praying Mantis are Tanglangquen , Tai Tzu Men, and Taijiquan (Chen Style and Monastery Style). The information age seems to have brought out a lot of material regarding the history and formulation of Praying Mantis Style. They all seem to point to a common root, evolution, cross training and above all a strong will to excel. That, IMHO, is what Praying Mantis Kung Fu (regardless of style) is about.

To be completed…

All in all, I think I'll have to seriously revise my comments on this piece. It no longer accurately reflects my understanding. :(

Mantis108

[MantisCool]

Hi! Tainan

I am quite positive that this materal is from WHF because the quanpu (forms started) are all the same as WHF and also the stroke name has 5 characters and the discription of all the stroke names and usage are exactly as those published by WHF.

I am attaching herewith page 1 for all to see.

Hi! BeiTangLang

Regarding the 18 weapons, I dont know whether I have or not but the 18 weapons are mentioned in every kungfu school and I think they are the same.

Hi! Mantis 108

I dont mean anything. I am just trying to make things clearer

[MantisCool]

1st attachment.

[MantisCool]

2nd attachment.

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantis Cool,
Can you up the resolution?
The first post was very clear, but these I can not read a lot of charaters.

It mentions that Zhao Zhu Hsi is 80 years old so We can suppose this was published in 1980.

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by MantisCool

Hi! BeiTangLang

Regarding the 18 weapons, I dont know whether I have or not but the 18 weapons are mentioned in every kungfu school and I think they are the same.


I asked for that one! LOL!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by mantis108
I also believe that the 18 families of hand to hand combat is a parallel of 18 weapons for the battle field.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I meant to ask was:
In what way are they parallel? In number similarity only, or are the weapons directly related to the systems somehow?
What is the relation or parallel between them?

[mantis108]

I haven't forgotten you. Eyes were shot after typing the long posts yesterday. Anyway, here's some thoughts about the parallel.

In Chinese expression, someone who is good at everything is said to have 18 weapons.

There are various versions of 18 weapons available. In Ming dynasty around 1500s, the 18 weapons were:

1. Bow
2. cross bow
3. spear
4. saber
5. sword
6. lance
7. shield
8. battle axe
9. Yue (long T shape weapon with sharp edges)
10 Gig
11 metal whip
12 metal club
13 long staff
14 stick
15 fork
16 rake
17 rope
18 empty hand

until Qing dynasty, it was then further grouped into 9 longs and 9 shots.

When we look at the 18 families, there are some that are IMHO based on Longfist protocol (using forms) as the training methodology and some that are short strikes protocol (using drills). I can't say it is evenly 9 long and 9 short but it's pretty close.

Another interesting feature about the 18 families in Shaolin Authentics is that pretty much all the styles mentioned actually has something to do with the book. I will give 3 examples using Ilya's version:

Ex. 1:

15. Master Meng Su's "seven postures of continuous fist strikes" [Qishi LianQuan]

This is the core "form" of the Shaolin Authentics made up of 7 different "postures".

Ex. 2:

8. Master Yan Qing's "sticking, grabbing, and falling" [zhanna diefa] techniques.

This is IMHO the 9 turns 18 falls 20 roads in the Shaolin Authentics.

Ex. 3:

14. Master Lin Chong's "mandarin duck" [yuanyang jiao] kick is the strongest kicking technique.

This is IMHO the 12 groin kicks method in the Shaolin Authentics.

Just thought that I share this as well.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[MantisCool]

Tainan

Sorry, I tried many times but could not increase the resolution because I am usng videocam not digicam. The earlier one is clearer because the area is smaller.

Do you mean Zhao Zhu Hsi was born in 1900? I thought the
article is older at least in the 70's!

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantis Cool,
Yes, Zhao Zhu Hsi was born in 1900.
On seeing the first file you scanned I thought it was pre WW2 because of the type face.

If you would like to post some more it is ok to post a small section if it increases resolution.

Though you don't need to post those 3 you just posted as I get the gist of it.
It is the author's personal thoughts and interpretations and not direct quotes of old.

[MantisCool]

Tainan

The article must be wrongly quoted somwhere. I remember the article is much older if not I would have bought it myself. My sifu said the article was published during the time of WHF if not the author would have mentioned his demise.

One of the articles said WHF put the LoHan Gung into photograph 7 years ago and WHF's Lohan Gung was published in 1958 that means the article is somewhere around 1965.

Attached herewith the article.

[MantisCool]

the 2nd Lohan article.

[mantis108]

I think MantisCool could be right about the article being written in 1965. The article mentioned GM Chiu in a northern Vietnam city, which he was there between 1937 - 1945. The article didn't mention GM Chiu being in Hong Kong and Kuang Mut Ling Sihing ( 1912 - 1967) still alive in Macao. GM Chiu moved back to HK around 1968-69. So the article could be written in 1965. I guess the authour didn't know how old GM Chiu was. He could be quoting from what he heard of GM Chiu's age.

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks guys for correcting my mistake.

[MantisCool]

Mantis108

Thanks for verfying the date. Frankly speaking, I am english educated and my command of mandarin is limited.

[cha kuen]

so question is..

Out of cck's students today , which one learned the most about fighting. Because I see most passing on the forms and technqiues, self defense....but how many learned more of the free fighting, sparring from cck?


I always wondered.

[mantis108]

You are most welcome, my friend. I think you are doing fine with both. I look forward for more of your sharing and insights. :)

Hi Cha Kuen,

Good question. But is off topic in this thread. So I would try to address it in a different thread. Hope you don't mind. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by mantis108


Hi Cha Kuen,

Good question. But is off topic in this thread. So I would try to address it in a different thread. Hope you don't mind. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

That was easy;

Thanks Mantis108 :)

[mantis108]

No problem, BeiTangLang. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108